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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On November 21 2012 11:43 JJH777 wrote:
The psionic change also barely effects TvZ which anyone who isn't extremely biased would admit is the bigger problem. Protoss has done fine overall in tournament play since the queen/ovie patch. Terran has done horribly. Literally MVP and Taeja are the only 2 terrans with great results since the queen patch.
I strongly disagree - Protoss vs. Zerg is the matchup that needs fixing the most right now. It goes something like:
Protoss try and hit a 2 or 3 base timing. Zerg tries to defend. If Zerg defends, drone and tech up crazily, while Protoss try to build their own ultimate army.
Then Protoss either get a lucky Vortex, or die.
Horrible boring at many phases.
I think Terran is doing alright, and the only reason why Protoss has done alright post-patch is due to two things:
-Zerg only recently figuring out the ultimate lategame play
-PartinG's 2base allin or Creator's 3base allins working (which aren't fun or particularly legitimate ways to win, btw)
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so what's zerg suppose to do against sentry stalker 2,3 base allins now?
I'm really confused about this change.
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On November 21 2012 12:52 sCCrooked wrote:
Seeing this as their response is extremely disturbing to me. It shows that they do not even begin to understand the issues much less attempt to fix them. The fungal nerf is huge. Not being able to get rid of sentries with fungal makes a bunch of pushes pre-hive extremely powerful. It basically just buffs ff even more than it already is.
Add that we can't detect dts anymore with a fungal to catch it and kill it and suddenly backstabs become ridiculous when coupled with the fact you can't stop warp prisms either. Blizzard seems unaware that the problems here are design-related. This is not how you fix a design issue. It would require a HUGE amount of overhaul on all 3 races to fix the glaring problems we all have.
i agree with you completely,
every time there isnt a patch for a while, i forget how incompetent they are
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On November 21 2012 12:57 neoghaleon55 wrote:
so what's zerg suppose to do against sentry stalker 2,3 base allins now?
I'm really confused about this change.
Infestors shouldn't counter everything.
Zerg should find a solution using the many other units they have. Infestor can still act in a support role.
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On November 21 2012 12:57 neoghaleon55 wrote:
so what's zerg suppose to do against sentry stalker 2,3 base allins now?
I'm really confused about this change.
I assume if it turns out to be too powerful they will remove Sentry from Psionic and make it only Mechanical.
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On November 21 2012 12:22 xAdra wrote:
For someone who stated that TvZ is a larger problem because fewer Terrans win at the highest level:
PvZ winrates may be higher, sure, but practically none of those wins are from legitimate, epic late game fights. The protosses are winning on 2-base and 3-base allins. I have no idea how that's even fun. When the Infestor-Broodlord composition kicks into full gear with 30+ infestors, protoss is EVEN MORE helpless than terran is, thanks to the coin-flippy archon toilet being the only viable solution.
I'm not saying it's much easier for terran; you have to split vikings, use ravens (also coin flippy) and have a perfect mix of ground units to combat infestor-bl, all while needing to retain a good tank count to stand a fighting chance against the ultralisk tech switch.
My point is, infestor-bl is just insanely difficult and disproportionately hard for both P and T to handle, basically needing to rely on completely perfect control, praying hard to not get fungalled and hoping for the coinflippy vortex and HSM respectively to hit.
Hoping for the nerfs to do their job, if as Avilo correctly pointed out, they don't, I'll continue wanting for more. I liked the fungal slow/fungal projectile/infested terran to 50 energy nerfs much better. And yes, I do think Infestors should be nerfed to the ground. I hate that unit so much.
Terran is way more fucked late game, you guys have a 50/50 shot of hitting a good vortex, we are more reliant on our opponent making a serious of different mistakes.
The Raven change is not going to do it, your going to need more reworking. They need to specifically design raven to stop BL/infestor
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On November 21 2012 13:00 Solarsail wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 12:57 neoghaleon55 wrote:
so what's zerg suppose to do against sentry stalker 2,3 base allins now?
I'm really confused about this change. Infestors shouldn't counter everything. Zerg should find a solution using the many other units they have. Infestor can still act in a support role.
I agree it shouldn't counter everything.
But there's a timing during 10-15 minutes where zerg has no splash siege option(Tanks/collosi) that can stop sentry pushes.
I see this change is being very problematic.
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by immune does that mean it doesn't root/detect/touch at all psionic units?
- Ravens should be considered psionic, or have hsm range buffed imo, because fungal still outranges ravens... to use hsm properly the ravens have to run up to things for a hug (and die)
- why antiga... on basically a map that is "terran favored"?
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On November 21 2012 12:57 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 11:43 JJH777 wrote:
The psionic change also barely effects TvZ which anyone who isn't extremely biased would admit is the bigger problem. Protoss has done fine overall in tournament play since the queen/ovie patch. Terran has done horribly. Literally MVP and Taeja are the only 2 terrans with great results since the queen patch. I strongly disagree - Protoss vs. Zerg is the matchup that needs fixing the most right now. It goes something like: Protoss try and hit a 2 or 3 base timing. Zerg tries to defend. If Zerg defends, drone and tech up crazily, while Protoss try to build their own ultimate army. Then Protoss either get a lucky Vortex, or die. Horrible boring at many phases. I think Terran is doing alright, and the only reason why Protoss has done alright post-patch is due to two things: -Zerg only recently figuring out the ultimate lategame play -PartinG's 2base allin or Creator's 3base allins working (which aren't fun or particularly legitimate ways to win, btw)
So they tried to fix it by making it harder to hold the 3 base/2base all in since warp prism (used to warp in stuff for the allins) and sentries (used for those fancy ff) are now immune to fungal.
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How about give zerg viable options so that they don't have to do brood/inf every f'n game in every f'n mu
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United States7483 Posts
This is a good first attempt, because now infestors will suck horribly at defending against protoss drops, making a reliance on pure infestor play less viable in that matchup. Putting a bunch of HT in a warp prism and dropping them on infestors to do feedbacks seems like a reasonable strategy now, and fungal not working on archons will make it slightly easier to get archons into the fray against infestor/BL, and make chargelot archon a lot stronger of a midgame strategy. Infestors not being able to immediately make all sentries useless is a good change too, as it should pro-long their usage before brood lords are out. I'm a little worried about how it will affect the power of the immortal/sentry all-in, since it won't be shut down when infestors pop now.
No fungal on Dark Templar is HUGE, no more making that entire tech useless once infestors are out, with zerg not even having to get detection. Makes their usage much more viable.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On November 21 2012 13:03 phodacbiet wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 12:57 opterown wrote:On November 21 2012 11:43 JJH777 wrote:
The psionic change also barely effects TvZ which anyone who isn't extremely biased would admit is the bigger problem. Protoss has done fine overall in tournament play since the queen/ovie patch. Terran has done horribly. Literally MVP and Taeja are the only 2 terrans with great results since the queen patch. I strongly disagree - Protoss vs. Zerg is the matchup that needs fixing the most right now. It goes something like: Protoss try and hit a 2 or 3 base timing. Zerg tries to defend. If Zerg defends, drone and tech up crazily, while Protoss try to build their own ultimate army. Then Protoss either get a lucky Vortex, or die. Horrible boring at many phases. I think Terran is doing alright, and the only reason why Protoss has done alright post-patch is due to two things: -Zerg only recently figuring out the ultimate lategame play -PartinG's 2base allin or Creator's 3base allins working (which aren't fun or particularly legitimate ways to win, btw) So they tried to fix it by making it harder to hold the 3 base/2base all in since warp prism (used to warp in stuff for the allins) and sentries (used for those fancy ff) are now immune to fungal.
exactly, not a good change imo.
I wouldn't mind BL being 6 supply instead of 4 now, so it's not as easy to make a bunch of them at a time.
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On November 21 2012 12:48 Woizit wrote:
Warp prism being immune to fungal is going to be a serious threat. It's hard to imagine Zerg handling speed prisms now, and I can imagine them carrying DTs lategame to make it worse.
I welcome this changes though, the game needs some shaking up to break from the monotony of its play.
Yes I agree, zerg has a work-around for this. We can go for a small army of lings/corruptors. At least that is a minus role
for the infestor.
I think we shouldn't be going for the projectile feature, but we'll see how it goes in the tests.
Sentry immunity to fungal growth may be a catastrophic change, because of the 3 base immortal sentry pre-hive timing (SKT1 Rain). This could be game breaking.
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On November 21 2012 13:04 Prplppleatr wrote:
How about give zerg viable options so that they don't have to do brood/inf every f'n game in every f'n mu
there are viable options, creativity has not shown them to us yet
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On November 21 2012 13:01 XXXSmOke wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 12:22 xAdra wrote:
For someone who stated that TvZ is a larger problem because fewer Terrans win at the highest level:
PvZ winrates may be higher, sure, but practically none of those wins are from legitimate, epic late game fights. The protosses are winning on 2-base and 3-base allins. I have no idea how that's even fun. When the Infestor-Broodlord composition kicks into full gear with 30+ infestors, protoss is EVEN MORE helpless than terran is, thanks to the coin-flippy archon toilet being the only viable solution.
I'm not saying it's much easier for terran; you have to split vikings, use ravens (also coin flippy) and have a perfect mix of ground units to combat infestor-bl, all while needing to retain a good tank count to stand a fighting chance against the ultralisk tech switch.
My point is, infestor-bl is just insanely difficult and disproportionately hard for both P and T to handle, basically needing to rely on completely perfect control, praying hard to not get fungalled and hoping for the coinflippy vortex and HSM respectively to hit.
Hoping for the nerfs to do their job, if as Avilo correctly pointed out, they don't, I'll continue wanting for more. I liked the fungal slow/fungal projectile/infested terran to 50 energy nerfs much better. And yes, I do think Infestors should be nerfed to the ground. I hate that unit so much. Terran is way more fucked late game, you guys have a 50/50 shot of hitting a good vortex, we are more reliant on our opponent making a serious of different mistakes. The Raven change is not going to do it, your going to need more reworking. They need to specifically design raven to stop BL/infestor
Actually, the chances of hitting a good vortex are significantly lower than 50/50. The mothership is simply so overwhelmingly slow, adding the chances of getting fungaled (pretty much 100% against an opponent who knows what he's doing) and you get maybe 20/80.
Add AGAIN the chances of your Archons getting fungaled, even after you land the vortex (you lucky bastard) and the chances are maybe 10/90.
The only reason Archon toilet is considered remotely "viable" is because it's the only way. There is no alternative to it.
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On November 21 2012 13:03 zhurai wrote:
by immune does that mean it doesn't root/detect/touch at all psionic units?
- Ravens should be considered psionic, or have hsm range buffed imo, because fungal still outranges ravens... to use hsm properly the ravens have to run up to things for a hug (and die)
- why antiga... on basically a map that is "terran favored"?
Antiga does not favour Terran.
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On November 21 2012 12:36 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 12:15 Lunareste wrote:On November 21 2012 11:59 Protosnake wrote:On November 21 2012 11:54 Lunareste wrote:
Maybe now Zergs won't be taking a 4 minute 3rd base, make minimal units until they see a move out, and still be able to hold sentry/immortal all in. It's too greedy, too easy for zerg to get to 70 drones and move into hive tech by the 12 minute mark.
Hopefully the fear of the strategy will encourage zerg slow down their tech to infestor/brood lord and make the games more diverse by having them invest more into army units in the early to mid game transition.
You think FFE isnt greedy ? The fast 3 base ZvP is a simple reaction to FFE, if you dont take that 3rd base you're all-in. That how it always worked, before Stephano created that build, every ZvP was a roach-muta all-in that led to an (uneeded and irrelevant) phoenix buff. Even more since 2base Infestor cant hold Psionic based units push anymore (Not that it would be smart to all-in a zerg on 2 base) I think it's a lot less greedy than what zerg is doing in the current meta game, yeah. 3rd base, 70 drones, hope you have infestors/fungals out at the 9 minute mark. I think the best thing that could happen with this change is to force zerg to create additional spine crawlers or army units prior to the 8 minute mark. What I would like to see in this matchup, to make it less boring from the get go and less of a nr20 macro fest on the zerg's part, is for the zerg to be forced to invest money into army and defensive units. That also gives Protoss the additional benefit of having delayed Hive tech, which will then possibly lead to more strategy if they figure out that a zerg isn't making all drones; instead, they're able to more safely take a 3rd and transition in to the late game better. For the record, and I could be 100% wrong, I think the 2 base sentry/immortal all in is still beatable by zerg if they force forcefields out mid map, if they make static defenses at their bases, if they make more units in the early game or a combination of the three. I don't know what anyone else thinks, but I'm sick and tired of seeing zergs do the exact same thing in the 2 non mirror matchups for the last 6 months. I think that making zergs be more cautious and delaying infestor/brood lord is going to be healthy for the matchup, and make it more exciting when you don't know exactly what's going to happen every game. You wont have 9min infestors with a 3base opening, they already barely come in time to defend against immortal all-in, and they do not stop it at all. Dropping mass spinecrawler before 8 min is a MASSIVE hit to your economy and do not at all guarantee you to be safe against any all-in. Especially the immortal one. Overall I think this is a terrible change, DT, Sentry and warp prism play are already massively used despite the state of fungals and are getting an uneeded buff, Mothership being immune worry me, Archon/HT/Ghost being immune seems fairly reasonnable
1. Thank you for correcting me, I meant 9:30-10 minute mark. That's usually about when the PartinG timing should hit. I disagree with you, I think the Infestor is exactly what stops the immortal/sentry all in, thus why fungal working against sentries is such a big deal in the first place: because it annihilates the immortal/gateway unit push.
2. Excellent. First off, I'm not saying that Spine Crawlers alone should make Zerg able to defend this timing, merely that it should contribute to defending against it. The ultimate goal should be to force Zerg to invest more of their money into defense so they can stop the timing, which in turn also delays an Infestor/Brood Lord push. I think that makes for a more interesting matchup, and forcing Spine Crawlers is not a bad investment for the Zerg to make, considering they are useful in the late game. All this really accomplishes is delaying the Zerg's tech IF they invest into enough defense to hold the push.
3. I think Zerg has enough options to shut down Warp Prism harassment with other tools such as queens, spore crawlers, spine crawlers, corrupters, mutalisks, infested terrans and even hydralisks (granted they don't see much use now). I don't think asking a zerg to keep an overseer with his army or around his bases is asking too much. I do think that infestors, which already contribute to an almost broken late game army, being able to deal with such a high-tech unit as a dark templar by themselves with just energy is not balanced. I think the zerg should have to make more of an investment into defenses when the Protoss is pouring so many resources into making those DTs in the first place; massable spellcasters should not be able to beat expensive, high tech units for free.
On November 21 2012 13:10 Solarsail wrote:
You're looking at this too narrowly. Imagine that, in order to be safe, Zerg isn't allowed to tech/drone/expand so fast. And they need more skill with scouting to build roaches and lings and position them for a correct flank. Basically the skill required to play Zerg so far has been artificially low and this constitutes a correction.
Well said.
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On November 21 2012 13:02 neoghaleon55 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 13:00 Solarsail wrote:On November 21 2012 12:57 neoghaleon55 wrote:
so what's zerg suppose to do against sentry stalker 2,3 base allins now?
I'm really confused about this change. Infestors shouldn't counter everything. Zerg should find a solution using the many other units they have. Infestor can still act in a support role. I agree it shouldn't counter everything. But there's a timing during 10-15 minutes where zerg has no splash siege option(Tanks/collosi) that can stop sentry pushes. I see this change is being very problematic.
You're looking at this too narrowly. Imagine that, in order to be safe, Zerg isn't allowed to tech/drone/expand so fast. And they need more skill with scouting to build roaches and lings and position them for a correct flank. Basically the skill required to play Zerg so far has been artificially low and this constitutes a correction.
Not saying that's how it is, but you're acting like the status quo is the one true metagame and this change, in disrupting that, is automatically bad.
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I hope they will couple this change with the removal of the Psionic attribute from several units like the Sentry and Warp Prism and possibly adding the Psionic attribute to the Raven. Then, I think this patch would have tons more promise.
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On November 21 2012 12:57 neoghaleon55 wrote:
so what's zerg suppose to do against sentry stalker 2,3 base allins now?
I'm really confused about this change.
you're supposed to outplay them... : /
Like are zerg players THIS dependant on fungal now? I really don't think it's a balance issue rather than a complete crutch at this point they refuse to stop using.
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EPT
