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United States7483 Posts
On November 21 2012 13:28 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 13:22 Lunareste wrote:
I see this change working out well because ghosts having fungal immunity should make EMP more viable as an anti caster spell. Not if there are BLs around, some Overseers + the Broodling wall will still prevent Ghosts from reaching their target. Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 13:22 Lunareste wrote:
At some point in the mid game, Terran now has the option to delay 2-3 medivacs or vikings in order to get a ghost academy down and moebius reactor started. Very unlikely, Ghosts are still too expensive for midgame.
Ghost openings used to be standard in PvT before they nerfed emp, they were easily affordable along with a big army. Let me put it to you this way: your marines and medivacs and tanks will annihilate the zerg if he has no infestors, therefore, you make whatever you can to kill the infestors. A few ghosts are a smaller investment than his infestors are.
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On November 21 2012 13:28 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 13:22 Lunareste wrote:
I see this change working out well because ghosts having fungal immunity should make EMP more viable as an anti caster spell. Not if there are BLs around, some Overseers + the Broodling wall will still prevent Ghosts from reaching their target. Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 13:22 Lunareste wrote:
At some point in the mid game, Terran now has the option to delay 2-3 medivacs or vikings in order to get a ghost academy down and moebius reactor started. Very unlikely, Ghosts are still too expensive for midgame.
Kill the overseer with snipe or vikings. It only has sight 11, so there is a good chance it will be in range of one of those two units. Then, profit.
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On November 21 2012 13:11 Talack wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 12:57 neoghaleon55 wrote:
so what's zerg suppose to do against sentry stalker 2,3 base allins now?
I'm really confused about this change. you're supposed to outplay them... : / Like are zerg players THIS dependant on fungal now? I really don't think it's a balance issue rather than a complete crutch at this point they refuse to stop using.
Yeah, I tend to agree. Months before Infestors became popular, you'd see good Zergs target firing Sentries and good Protoss doing their best to preserve them by getting them out of the front line. IMO, Zergs may have gotten lazy in the last few months.
Now, this is not to say that Sentries may or may not be psionic. From a lore perspective, I think only HT, DT, Archon and Ghost fit that bill. But to object to this on the grounds that the Infestor and fungal no longer "counters" the Sentry is off, IMO.
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I like the raven change. I guess this will help terrans against zergs if they can get seeker missiles out against clumps of infestor or broodlord.
Infestor changes look promising, although it would be nice if neural couldn't target a mothership. I think neural should still be able to target other massive units though. Fungal not hitting psionics will probably give rise to the development of another timing push just before hive tech has been reached.
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On November 21 2012 13:30 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 13:28 TheDwf wrote:On November 21 2012 13:22 Lunareste wrote:
I see this change working out well because ghosts having fungal immunity should make EMP more viable as an anti caster spell. Not if there are BLs around, some Overseers + the Broodling wall will still prevent Ghosts from reaching their target. On November 21 2012 13:22 Lunareste wrote:
At some point in the mid game, Terran now has the option to delay 2-3 medivacs or vikings in order to get a ghost academy down and moebius reactor started. Very unlikely, Ghosts are still too expensive for midgame. Ghost openings used to be standard in PvT before they nerfed emp, they were easily affordable along with a big army. Let me put it to you this way: your marines and medivacs and tanks will annihilate the zerg if he has no infestors, therefore, you make whatever you can to kill the infestors. A few ghosts are a smaller investment than his infestors are.
ghost openings have never been standard in pvt
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On November 21 2012 13:27 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 13:22 TheDwf wrote:On November 21 2012 13:16 Whitewing wrote:
Do what Gumiho already does, sneak ghosts in from multiple angles, and be proactive in attacking the zerg's infestor count, don't just sit and let it come to you, EMP and snipe infestors all day long. He even does medivac drops with ghosts behind the army and from the sides of the army to get his ghosts into position. Sure, sounds like something the average ladder Joe can do every game, eh? I know, you might have to use a whole second control group or third control group to split them up. Or just get cloak and use vikings to focus down overseers, they die quick.
Ah yes, I forgot that Vikings often receive special permission from Corruptors and Infestors to kill Overseers without being shot down in return. Sorry for being sarcastic but it's really infuriating to see Protoss players theorycrafting improbable things Terrans should do in TvZ. In most situations the maneuvers you describe are absolutely unrealistic.
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On November 21 2012 13:33 aZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 13:11 Talack wrote:On November 21 2012 12:57 neoghaleon55 wrote:
so what's zerg suppose to do against sentry stalker 2,3 base allins now?
I'm really confused about this change. you're supposed to outplay them... : / Like are zerg players THIS dependant on fungal now? I really don't think it's a balance issue rather than a complete crutch at this point they refuse to stop using. Yeah, I tend to agree. Months before Infestors became popular, you'd see good Zergs target firing Sentries and good Protoss doing their best to preserve them by getting them out of the front line. IMO, Zergs may have gotten lazy in the last few months. Now, this is not to say that Sentries may or may not be psionic. From a lore perspective, I think only HT, DT, Archon and Ghost fit that bill. But to object to this on the grounds that the Infestor and fungal no longer "counters" the Sentry is off, IMO.
Oh man baneling drops. Does anyone remember those? They were terrifying as a protoss and then everyone just stopped using them because fungle was so good. Or those awesome early roach builds where they just burrowed under your force fields and murdered all your sentries.
Zerg was killing sentries before DB and DK buffed fungle and they did it with style. They can do it again.
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United States7483 Posts
On November 21 2012 13:34 c0sm0naut wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 13:30 Whitewing wrote:On November 21 2012 13:28 TheDwf wrote:On November 21 2012 13:22 Lunareste wrote:
I see this change working out well because ghosts having fungal immunity should make EMP more viable as an anti caster spell. Not if there are BLs around, some Overseers + the Broodling wall will still prevent Ghosts from reaching their target. On November 21 2012 13:22 Lunareste wrote:
At some point in the mid game, Terran now has the option to delay 2-3 medivacs or vikings in order to get a ghost academy down and moebius reactor started. Very unlikely, Ghosts are still too expensive for midgame. Ghost openings used to be standard in PvT before they nerfed emp, they were easily affordable along with a big army. Let me put it to you this way: your marines and medivacs and tanks will annihilate the zerg if he has no infestors, therefore, you make whatever you can to kill the infestors. A few ghosts are a smaller investment than his infestors are. ghost openings have never been standard in pvt
How long have you been playing? There was a very long time where terrans would have ghosts out for their first aggression, which was designed entirely to stop sentries from using forcefield so that the stim timing would overrun the protoss.
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now make ravens psionic plz so that missile can actually get cast ^^;
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On November 21 2012 13:34 c0sm0naut wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 13:30 Whitewing wrote:On November 21 2012 13:28 TheDwf wrote:On November 21 2012 13:22 Lunareste wrote:
I see this change working out well because ghosts having fungal immunity should make EMP more viable as an anti caster spell. Not if there are BLs around, some Overseers + the Broodling wall will still prevent Ghosts from reaching their target. On November 21 2012 13:22 Lunareste wrote:
At some point in the mid game, Terran now has the option to delay 2-3 medivacs or vikings in order to get a ghost academy down and moebius reactor started. Very unlikely, Ghosts are still too expensive for midgame. Ghost openings used to be standard in PvT before they nerfed emp, they were easily affordable along with a big army. Let me put it to you this way: your marines and medivacs and tanks will annihilate the zerg if he has no infestors, therefore, you make whatever you can to kill the infestors. A few ghosts are a smaller investment than his infestors are. ghost openings have never been standard in pvt
I wouldn't say standard but it was pretty common to see 2 ghost pushes (EMP sentries so they couldn't cast FF). But then EMP got nerfed and protoss learnt to spread their sentries.
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On November 21 2012 13:33 aZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 13:11 Talack wrote:On November 21 2012 12:57 neoghaleon55 wrote:
so what's zerg suppose to do against sentry stalker 2,3 base allins now?
I'm really confused about this change. you're supposed to outplay them... : / Like are zerg players THIS dependant on fungal now? I really don't think it's a balance issue rather than a complete crutch at this point they refuse to stop using. Yeah, I tend to agree. Months before Infestors became popular, you'd see good Zergs target firing Sentries and good Protoss doing their best to preserve them by getting them out of the front line. IMO, Zergs may have gotten lazy in the last few months. Now, this is not to say that Sentries may or may not be psionic. From a lore perspective, I think only HT, DT, Archon and Ghost fit that bill. But to object to this on the grounds that the Infestor and fungal no longer "counters" the Sentry is off, IMO.
They are still doing it, but as mentionned here, above, and in another post on frontpage, Zerg micro is almost irrelevant, all they can do is taking advantage of a Protoss doing a mistake, mainly with his forcefield, when executed properly, Immortal-sentry is like a single-player experience, it do not fail
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On November 21 2012 13:37 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 13:34 c0sm0naut wrote:On November 21 2012 13:30 Whitewing wrote:On November 21 2012 13:28 TheDwf wrote:On November 21 2012 13:22 Lunareste wrote:
I see this change working out well because ghosts having fungal immunity should make EMP more viable as an anti caster spell. Not if there are BLs around, some Overseers + the Broodling wall will still prevent Ghosts from reaching their target. On November 21 2012 13:22 Lunareste wrote:
At some point in the mid game, Terran now has the option to delay 2-3 medivacs or vikings in order to get a ghost academy down and moebius reactor started. Very unlikely, Ghosts are still too expensive for midgame. Ghost openings used to be standard in PvT before they nerfed emp, they were easily affordable along with a big army. Let me put it to you this way: your marines and medivacs and tanks will annihilate the zerg if he has no infestors, therefore, you make whatever you can to kill the infestors. A few ghosts are a smaller investment than his infestors are. ghost openings have never been standard in pvt How long have you been playing? There was a very long time where terrans would have ghosts out for their first aggression, which was designed entirely to stop sentries from using forcefield so that the stim timing would overrun the protoss.
ive been playing since sc bw, the ghost push you're mentioning is a coinflip build and should be seen more as a timing rush that is no longer viable than what "used to be standard" when in reality the majority of tvp even the older games were 1 rax fe > 3 rax > medivacs
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On November 21 2012 13:29 c0sm0naut wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 13:28 TheDwf wrote:On November 21 2012 13:22 Lunareste wrote:
I see this change working out well because ghosts having fungal immunity should make EMP more viable as an anti caster spell. Not if there are BLs around, some Overseers + the Broodling wall will still prevent Ghosts from reaching their target. On November 21 2012 13:22 Lunareste wrote:
At some point in the mid game, Terran now has the option to delay 2-3 medivacs or vikings in order to get a ghost academy down and moebius reactor started. Very unlikely, Ghosts are still too expensive for midgame. also, what incentive does this give when i can build siege tanks for less minerals, not tie up my barracks building ghosts and instead use this money for 13 range siege tanks that are relevant vs all ground compositions??
Well how useful are those tanks against Brood Lords? I think that being able to EMP the Infestors will help against the Brood Lord/Infestor composition more than a tank which has to unsiege, and often gets destroyed by broodlings or zerglings reinforcements.
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On November 21 2012 11:08 SarcasmMonster wrote:That was quick. Here are some polls to see public impression. Poll: First impressions of the Fungal change?Thumbs up (1898) 57% Thumbs down (1239) 37% No thumbs (215) 6% 3352 total votes Your vote: First impressions of the Fungal change? (Vote): Thumbs up
(Vote): Thumbs down
(Vote): No thumbs
Poll: First impressions of the Seeker Missile change?Thumbs up (2287) 80% Thumbs down (410) 14% No thumbs (153) 5% 2850 total votes Your vote: First impressions of the Seeker Missile change? (Vote): Thumbs up
(Vote): Thumbs down
(Vote): No thumbs
Those questions are terrible, because the important thing you should have askeds is "Is this enough of a change? Yes/No". If people are giving a thumbs up they could still think that its not enough and only a step in the right direction.
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United States7483 Posts
On November 21 2012 13:38 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 13:33 aZealot wrote:On November 21 2012 13:11 Talack wrote:On November 21 2012 12:57 neoghaleon55 wrote:
so what's zerg suppose to do against sentry stalker 2,3 base allins now?
I'm really confused about this change. you're supposed to outplay them... : / Like are zerg players THIS dependant on fungal now? I really don't think it's a balance issue rather than a complete crutch at this point they refuse to stop using. Yeah, I tend to agree. Months before Infestors became popular, you'd see good Zergs target firing Sentries and good Protoss doing their best to preserve them by getting them out of the front line. IMO, Zergs may have gotten lazy in the last few months. Now, this is not to say that Sentries may or may not be psionic. From a lore perspective, I think only HT, DT, Archon and Ghost fit that bill. But to object to this on the grounds that the Infestor and fungal no longer "counters" the Sentry is off, IMO. They are still doing it, but as mentionned here, above, and in another post on frontpage, Zerg micro is almost irrelevant, all they can do is taking advantage of a Protoss doing a mistake, mainly with his forcefield, when executed properly, Immortal-sentry is like a single-player experience, it do not fail
You never see zerg going tunneling claws before roach speed, is that because it can't work or doesn't work, or because it hasn't been fully explored? Leenock has actually done 2 roach warren builds before to get both upgrades super fast for specific timings in Code S, that should be worth some exploration. Symbol has showcased builds where he gets super fast lair and overlord drops so he can roach bomb all over the immortal/sentry army and negate the sentries entirely.
I don't think zerg micro is irrelevant, I think their strategy against the push is simply flawed. The usual method is to bash your head against a build purely designed to crush someone bashing their head against it.
Hell, TLO has showcased a strategy that seems effective, he puts a bunch of spines up in his main by the ramp, makes a nydus worm, basetrades his enemy, and uses the nydus worm to retreat his army back to his main when the push comes up the ramp, using the combination of his army plus all the spines and the narrow choke that is the main ramp to crush the push, and then he's won.
From a purely strategic standpoint, fighting the immortal sentry push head on without a way to bypass or ignore the forcefields is playing to the push's strengths.
If that means zerg needs to stay on 2 bases a little longer and get the third at 6:00 instead of 4:00 so he can get a quicker gas, then so be it, that's a good thing for the matchup. The immortal sentry push is designed entirely as a response to a low gas/tech zerg who took a super fast 3rd and droned heavily. You can beat it simply by not doing that. Startale_Curious does a 2 base quicker gas build with a 6:00 third quite often in ZvP in code S.
Think outside the box. You don't have to do the stephano build every game.
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These changes look kinda nice, especially for PvZ. However, I don't think these nerfs are enough to fix TvZ. Mid game TvZ will still be low-ghost-count or even ghost-less and zergs can get huge leads during it, which ones will snowball in late game.
Also, while HSM buff seems reasonable, it will still be kinda hard to hit with it because it's out-ranged by fungal. Making Raven psionic would be a good idea.
EDIT: Also I think fungal needs to be changed against air unit, or made to slow instead of immobilize.
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On November 21 2012 13:25 Jimbo77 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 13:22 Crushgroove wrote:
Warp prisms with speed are faster than every single zerg unit accept zergling, speed roach on creep, and mutalisk.
Warp prisms with speed are faster than every single Terran unit. Warp prisms with speed are faster than every single Protos unit. Your turn.
Purely in order to keep facts strait:
warp prisms are not faster than every protoss unit, Phoenixes are faster, blink stalkers are faster when they blink (what is actually used to counter speedprism builds), and theoretically vortex could catch a warp prism with a vortex.
Warp prisms are not faster than every terran unit, they are slower than speed reapers and hellions (not too useful) the same speed as stimmed bio(somewhat useful) and more importantly they only have the same vision as a thor shot and only 1 more than vikings (which are common in the matchup). While terran cannot catch the prism with aa the player has much less time to react than v zerg (best range 7(queen) or 6 (units with actual dps))
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On November 21 2012 13:35 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 13:27 Plansix wrote:On November 21 2012 13:22 TheDwf wrote:On November 21 2012 13:16 Whitewing wrote:
Do what Gumiho already does, sneak ghosts in from multiple angles, and be proactive in attacking the zerg's infestor count, don't just sit and let it come to you, EMP and snipe infestors all day long. He even does medivac drops with ghosts behind the army and from the sides of the army to get his ghosts into position. Sure, sounds like something the average ladder Joe can do every game, eh? I know, you might have to use a whole second control group or third control group to split them up. Or just get cloak and use vikings to focus down overseers, they die quick. Ah yes, I forgot that Vikings often receive special permission from Corruptors and Infestors to kill Overseers without being shot down in return. Sorry for being sarcastic but it's really infuriating to see Protoss players theorycrafting improbable things Terrans should do in TvZ. In most situations the maneuvers you describe are absolutely unrealistic.
I am sorry, snipe is bad ass. It is a range 10 spell that 2 shots infestors, thats longer range than BL and fungle. EMP also has longer range then fungle and BLs if you add in the AOE. The ghost is a bad ass unit and the only thing holding it back was fungle.
I play protoss and I am excited to use DTs that are immune to fungle. They won't kill BL. Really none of the units that may be immune will kill broodlords unless the zerg is beyond dumb.
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On November 21 2012 13:42 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 11:08 SarcasmMonster wrote:That was quick. Here are some polls to see public impression. Poll: First impressions of the Fungal change?Thumbs up (1898) 57% Thumbs down (1239) 37% No thumbs (215) 6% 3352 total votes Your vote: First impressions of the Fungal change? (Vote): Thumbs up
(Vote): Thumbs down
(Vote): No thumbs
Poll: First impressions of the Seeker Missile change?Thumbs up (2287) 80% Thumbs down (410) 14% No thumbs (153) 5% 2850 total votes Your vote: First impressions of the Seeker Missile change? (Vote): Thumbs up
(Vote): Thumbs down
(Vote): No thumbs
Those questions are terrible, because the important thing you should have askeds is "Is this enough of a change? Yes/No". If people are giving a thumbs up they could still think that its not enough and only a step in the right direction.
I disagree. Asking "is this enough of a change? Yes/No" only makes sense if the participant agrees a priori that the change is in the right direction. I rather ask the more fundamental question.
Plus "is this enough of a change" is more of a balance question which doesn't make sense for a first impression before anyone has played a single game yet. My question is more to do with direction so it makes slightly more sense.
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On November 21 2012 13:47 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 13:35 TheDwf wrote:On November 21 2012 13:27 Plansix wrote:On November 21 2012 13:22 TheDwf wrote:On November 21 2012 13:16 Whitewing wrote:
Do what Gumiho already does, sneak ghosts in from multiple angles, and be proactive in attacking the zerg's infestor count, don't just sit and let it come to you, EMP and snipe infestors all day long. He even does medivac drops with ghosts behind the army and from the sides of the army to get his ghosts into position. Sure, sounds like something the average ladder Joe can do every game, eh? I know, you might have to use a whole second control group or third control group to split them up. Or just get cloak and use vikings to focus down overseers, they die quick. Ah yes, I forgot that Vikings often receive special permission from Corruptors and Infestors to kill Overseers without being shot down in return. Sorry for being sarcastic but it's really infuriating to see Protoss players theorycrafting improbable things Terrans should do in TvZ. In most situations the maneuvers you describe are absolutely unrealistic. I am sorry, snipe is bad ass. It is a range 10 spell that 2 shots infestors, thats longer range than BL and fungle. EMP also has longer range then fungle and BLs if you add in the AOE. The ghost is a bad ass unit and the only thing holding it back was fungle. I play protoss and I am excited to use DTs that are immune to fungle. They won't kill BL. Really none of the units that may be immune will kill broodlords unless the zerg is beyond dumb.
i find it interesting how confident you are that the only thing that prevented ghosts from being useful was infestors
i wonder how this notion will pan out should the patch go live
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EPT
