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On November 21 2012 13:28 Whitewing wrote:
Balance should be determined at the top level, and it's not all that hard to load some units into a dropship, drop them behind the enemy army, and move cloaked units in from behind.
Which is probably why people were so astonished when MMA dropped Tanks behind DRG's army in their famous TDA game—because it's an everyday use maneuver, right?
Overseers' detection range is 11 in a radius, so moving Ghosts from different angles is cute and all but several of them are likely to die anyway before they use their spells.
On November 21 2012 13:16 Whitewing wrote:
I already do high templar drops with storm against terran bio and do my best with feedback drops against infestors already, and that's much more difficult with units that don't cloak and can be affected by fungal. Just hotkey the ghosts in the medivac, send the medivac to drop, and have the ghosts move in, it's basic micro, not really any harder than stutter stepping marines.
I'm glad for you if you play Zergs which allow your Warp Prism to fly around without catching it. In TvZ, there is creep; so if you fly a Medivac around, they see it and it's basically dinner time for Corruptors with some help from their fellow Infestors.
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United States7483 Posts
On November 21 2012 13:51 c0sm0naut wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 13:47 Plansix wrote:On November 21 2012 13:35 TheDwf wrote:On November 21 2012 13:27 Plansix wrote:On November 21 2012 13:22 TheDwf wrote:On November 21 2012 13:16 Whitewing wrote:
Do what Gumiho already does, sneak ghosts in from multiple angles, and be proactive in attacking the zerg's infestor count, don't just sit and let it come to you, EMP and snipe infestors all day long. He even does medivac drops with ghosts behind the army and from the sides of the army to get his ghosts into position. Sure, sounds like something the average ladder Joe can do every game, eh? I know, you might have to use a whole second control group or third control group to split them up. Or just get cloak and use vikings to focus down overseers, they die quick. Ah yes, I forgot that Vikings often receive special permission from Corruptors and Infestors to kill Overseers without being shot down in return. Sorry for being sarcastic but it's really infuriating to see Protoss players theorycrafting improbable things Terrans should do in TvZ. In most situations the maneuvers you describe are absolutely unrealistic. I am sorry, snipe is bad ass. It is a range 10 spell that 2 shots infestors, thats longer range than BL and fungle. EMP also has longer range then fungle and BLs if you add in the AOE. The ghost is a bad ass unit and the only thing holding it back was fungle. I play protoss and I am excited to use DTs that are immune to fungle. They won't kill BL. Really none of the units that may be immune will kill broodlords unless the zerg is beyond dumb. i find it interesting how confident you are that the only thing that prevented ghosts from being useful was infestors i wonder how this notion will pan out should the patch go live
It's not the only thing, but it's the hardest thing to manage. Gumiho was making it work with no changes at all, so it's clearly do-able. I think you're being a bit pessimistic.
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I like these changes so far!
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On November 21 2012 13:51 c0sm0naut wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 13:47 Plansix wrote:On November 21 2012 13:35 TheDwf wrote:On November 21 2012 13:27 Plansix wrote:On November 21 2012 13:22 TheDwf wrote:On November 21 2012 13:16 Whitewing wrote:
Do what Gumiho already does, sneak ghosts in from multiple angles, and be proactive in attacking the zerg's infestor count, don't just sit and let it come to you, EMP and snipe infestors all day long. He even does medivac drops with ghosts behind the army and from the sides of the army to get his ghosts into position. Sure, sounds like something the average ladder Joe can do every game, eh? I know, you might have to use a whole second control group or third control group to split them up. Or just get cloak and use vikings to focus down overseers, they die quick. Ah yes, I forgot that Vikings often receive special permission from Corruptors and Infestors to kill Overseers without being shot down in return. Sorry for being sarcastic but it's really infuriating to see Protoss players theorycrafting improbable things Terrans should do in TvZ. In most situations the maneuvers you describe are absolutely unrealistic. I am sorry, snipe is bad ass. It is a range 10 spell that 2 shots infestors, thats longer range than BL and fungle. EMP also has longer range then fungle and BLs if you add in the AOE. The ghost is a bad ass unit and the only thing holding it back was fungle. I play protoss and I am excited to use DTs that are immune to fungle. They won't kill BL. Really none of the units that may be immune will kill broodlords unless the zerg is beyond dumb. i find it interesting how confident you are that the only thing that prevented ghosts from being useful was infestors i wonder how this notion will pan out should the patch go live
To be fair, fungle was holding back every expensive unit from being useful, due to the risk getting into a bind and having no ability to save them. I think this is one step closer to making bringing them back into the match up, defensive nukes and all.
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United States7483 Posts
On November 21 2012 13:52 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 13:28 Whitewing wrote:
Balance should be determined at the top level, and it's not all that hard to load some units into a dropship, drop them behind the enemy army, and move cloaked units in from behind. Which is probably why people were so astonished when MMA dropped Tanks behind DRG's army in their famous TDA game—because it's an everyday use maneuver, right? Overseers' detection range is 11 in a radius, so moving Ghosts from different angles is cute and all but several of them are likely to die anyway before they use their spells. Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 13:16 Whitewing wrote:
I already do high templar drops with storm against terran bio and do my best with feedback drops against infestors already, and that's much more difficult with units that don't cloak and can be affected by fungal. Just hotkey the ghosts in the medivac, send the medivac to drop, and have the ghosts move in, it's basic micro, not really any harder than stutter stepping marines. I'm glad for you if you play Zergs which allow your Warp Prism to fly around without catching it. In TvZ, there is creep; so if you fly a Medivac around, they see it and it's basically dinner time for Corruptors with some help from their fellow Infestors.
Overseers aren't usually at the forefront of the army or behind it, they're usually in the middle. If the overseer is far enough out or trailing behind that he can see your ghosts before they are in range of the infestors, hit a few snipes and take them out, then you can just cloak shift+right click the army to death. Zergs don't usually 'allow' me to fly my warp prism around, but they keep their units balled up and usually can't even stop it. Yes there is creep but I make it a point to clear the creep up, I don't just allow him to spread it everywhere. Good terrans clean up creep too, you see it all the time in GSL. Ryung in particular is amazing at dealing with creep, he'll actually back off after scanning and killing tumors to allow it to recede before pushing in and taking more out. Corrupters are actually super slow at killing warp prisms and medivacs, and there usually aren't a lot of them, they tend to make more infestors and broods and only keep a handful of corrupters around. Clean up creep and they usually don't even see the warp prisms. I have a tougher time doing the drops against terran bio because of vikings than anything zerg has.
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On November 21 2012 13:42 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 13:38 Protosnake wrote:On November 21 2012 13:33 aZealot wrote:On November 21 2012 13:11 Talack wrote:On November 21 2012 12:57 neoghaleon55 wrote:
so what's zerg suppose to do against sentry stalker 2,3 base allins now?
I'm really confused about this change. you're supposed to outplay them... : / Like are zerg players THIS dependant on fungal now? I really don't think it's a balance issue rather than a complete crutch at this point they refuse to stop using. Yeah, I tend to agree. Months before Infestors became popular, you'd see good Zergs target firing Sentries and good Protoss doing their best to preserve them by getting them out of the front line. IMO, Zergs may have gotten lazy in the last few months. Now, this is not to say that Sentries may or may not be psionic. From a lore perspective, I think only HT, DT, Archon and Ghost fit that bill. But to object to this on the grounds that the Infestor and fungal no longer "counters" the Sentry is off, IMO. They are still doing it, but as mentionned here, above, and in another post on frontpage, Zerg micro is almost irrelevant, all they can do is taking advantage of a Protoss doing a mistake, mainly with his forcefield, when executed properly, Immortal-sentry is like a single-player experience, it do not fail You never see zerg going tunneling claws before roach speed, is that because it can't work or doesn't work, or because it hasn't been fully explored? Leenock has actually done 2 roach warren builds before to get both upgrades super fast for specific timings in Code S, that should be worth some exploration. Symbol has showcased builds where he gets super fast lair and overlord drops so he can roach bomb all over the immortal/sentry army and negate the sentries entirely. I don't think zerg micro is irrelevant, I think their strategy against the push is simply flawed. The usual method is to bash your head against a build purely designed to crush someone bashing their head against it. Hell, TLO has showcased a strategy that seems effective, he puts a bunch of spines up in his main by the ramp, makes a nydus worm, basetrades his enemy, and uses the nydus worm to retreat his army back to his main when the push comes up the ramp, using the combination of his army plus all the spines and the narrow choke that is the main ramp to crush the push, and then he's won. From a purely strategic standpoint, fighting the immortal sentry push head on without a way to bypass or ignore the forcefields is playing to the push's strengths. If that means zerg needs to stay on 2 bases a little longer and get the third at 6:00 instead of 4:00 so he can get a quicker gas, then so be it, that's a good thing for the matchup. The immortal sentry push is designed entirely as a response to a low gas/tech zerg who took a super fast 3rd and droned heavily. You can beat it simply by not doing that. Startale_Curious does a 2 base quicker gas build with a 6:00 third quite often in ZvP in code S. Think outside the box. You don't have to do the stephano build every game.
Yeah going 2-hatch might mean the Toss doesn't choose the Immortal/Sentry build but that choice doesn't really affect them in a meaningful way (because 3-hatch is scouted so early) and yet leaves the Zerg a little behind economically. As a rule I hate any strat that means basetrade also.
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On November 21 2012 13:42 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 13:38 Protosnake wrote:On November 21 2012 13:33 aZealot wrote:On November 21 2012 13:11 Talack wrote:On November 21 2012 12:57 neoghaleon55 wrote:
so what's zerg suppose to do against sentry stalker 2,3 base allins now?
I'm really confused about this change. you're supposed to outplay them... : / Like are zerg players THIS dependant on fungal now? I really don't think it's a balance issue rather than a complete crutch at this point they refuse to stop using. Yeah, I tend to agree. Months before Infestors became popular, you'd see good Zergs target firing Sentries and good Protoss doing their best to preserve them by getting them out of the front line. IMO, Zergs may have gotten lazy in the last few months. Now, this is not to say that Sentries may or may not be psionic. From a lore perspective, I think only HT, DT, Archon and Ghost fit that bill. But to object to this on the grounds that the Infestor and fungal no longer "counters" the Sentry is off, IMO. They are still doing it, but as mentionned here, above, and in another post on frontpage, Zerg micro is almost irrelevant, all they can do is taking advantage of a Protoss doing a mistake, mainly with his forcefield, when executed properly, Immortal-sentry is like a single-player experience, it do not fail You never see zerg going tunneling claws before roach speed, is that because it can't work or doesn't work, or because it hasn't been fully explored? Leenock has actually done 2 roach warren builds before to get both upgrades super fast for specific timings in Code S, that should be worth some exploration. Symbol has showcased builds where he gets super fast lair and overlord drops so he can roach bomb all over the immortal/sentry army and negate the sentries entirely. I don't think zerg micro is irrelevant, I think their strategy against the push is simply flawed. The usual method is to bash your head against a build purely designed to crush someone bashing their head against it. Hell, TLO has showcased a strategy that seems effective, he puts a bunch of spines up in his main by the ramp, makes a nydus worm, basetrades his enemy, and uses the nydus worm to retreat his army back to his main when the push comes up the ramp, using the combination of his army plus all the spines and the narrow choke that is the main ramp to crush the push, and then he's won. From a purely strategic standpoint, fighting the immortal sentry push head on without a way to bypass or ignore the forcefields is playing to the push's strengths. If that means zerg needs to stay on 2 bases a little longer and get the third at 6:00 instead of 4:00 so he can get a quicker gas, then so be it, that's a good thing for the matchup. The immortal sentry push is designed entirely as a response to a low gas/tech zerg who took a super fast 3rd and droned heavily. You can beat it simply by not doing that. Startale_Curious does a 2 base quicker gas build with a 6:00 third quite often in ZvP in code S. Think outside the box. You don't have to do the stephano build every game.
I've seen plenty of zerg attempt tunneling claws against immortal-sentry, it's been pretty heavily tested and what usually happen is that they just rolled the very risky dice of going burrow against Robo, because if any observer is there the roaches just get murdered by the immortal+Forcefield, tunneling below just make the fight much shorter.
Baneling drop rarely come in time, can get countered by micro and above all allow a protoss with warp prism to just spam warp Zealot in mineral line and win the game, because there is no roach to defend.
I'd love to see that TLO build where he manage to get 3 base, a spine wall, a nydus, an army, a nydus in his opponents base, then have the time to come back to defend the all-in
Getting the 3rd at 6:00 is illogical, if the protoss doesnt scout a fast 3rd base he wont all-in, he's already ahead, all he have to do is play the safe macro game and just crush the Z mid game with a FF/colossus spam (Old time PvZ)
Even if he's all-in it the zerg didnt gained many ways to deal with it, unless he went muta, the main reason why a Protoss dont go immortal-allin against a 2base Z
So maybe there are mysterious timing that have not yet been explored, but they tried very hard and so far nothing did the job. I personally am convinced that nothing can stop this all-in in WoL, but swarm host can.
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On November 21 2012 11:31 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 11:26 Plansix wrote:On November 21 2012 11:21 avilo wrote:
Raven change does nothing. Blizzard is completely out of the loop or is too stubborn to really listen about why ravens suck. Sure, you don't research it now! Great! Absolutely nothing changes in the amount of time it takes for a raven to accumulate hunter seeker energy.
Nothing also changes in terms of unit interactions/unit compositions. There was never a problem before "oh i don't have seeker missile research!" The problem is the time it takes to accumulate energy to make the raven pay itself off.
Quite disappointing. I know a lot of uninformed people here though will eat this up like candy and think something got better when it has not. One day I am going to compile all of avilo's quotes when it comes to balance changes and line them up. What would we learn? All balance changes have done nothing or hurt terran. At least he is consistent. It's nice to attack someone instead of their valid points. Look at the change objectively. It reduces a 150/150 cost in terms of infrastructure/tech to be set up to get ravens. What does it do to the unit interactions and how does it affect the amount of time it takes to accumulate seeker missile energy to make the raven a more reliable unit? Nothing. Everything stays the same related to ravens in TvZ you just now save 150/150 and still die in the same way. If you think my points are not valid please elaborate.
It's a useful upgrade because a problem with ravens is the cost it takes to tech to them. this can add up to a lot, and paying 150/150 is a little steep if your thinking about just making one or two ravens, for PDD or harass. also, with all the other upgrades needed for the raven, its can take up space on the tech lab. so now, you can get OTHER upgrades out there faster, making the raven better, faster. With the ghost buff Terran will receive by being immune to fungal, i don't think it would be the smartest move on blizzard's part to buff the raven to oblivion.
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On November 21 2012 13:56 Whitewing wrote:
Overseers aren't usually at the forefront of the army or behind it, they're usually in the middle. If the overseer is far enough out or trailing behind that he can see your ghosts before they are in range of the infestors, hit a few snipes and take them out
A few Snipes? You mean 9 Snipes per Overseer? Please... Just play the game instead of theorycrafting. Try your so-called reliable solutions yourself and come back to tell us how it went.
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On November 21 2012 13:52 TheDwf wrote:
MMA dropped Tanks behind DRG's army in their famous TDA game
That was on Shakuras.
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HOLY SHIT IT CAME TODAY
today
TODYA!!!! NOT NEXT WEEK! OR TWO WEEKS
holy shit im so excited FUCK YES
Omg this is awesome, they even disabled the comments on the bnet post, so that people can't complain/BM xD
seeker missile without upgrade will help air strats woot
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Norway10161 Posts
I don't understand the full implications here, but would this not make the protoss pre-bl push stronger at the same time as making templar/archon better for late game?
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United States7483 Posts
On November 21 2012 14:01 BoxingKangaroo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 13:42 Whitewing wrote:On November 21 2012 13:38 Protosnake wrote:On November 21 2012 13:33 aZealot wrote:On November 21 2012 13:11 Talack wrote:On November 21 2012 12:57 neoghaleon55 wrote:
so what's zerg suppose to do against sentry stalker 2,3 base allins now?
I'm really confused about this change. you're supposed to outplay them... : / Like are zerg players THIS dependant on fungal now? I really don't think it's a balance issue rather than a complete crutch at this point they refuse to stop using. Yeah, I tend to agree. Months before Infestors became popular, you'd see good Zergs target firing Sentries and good Protoss doing their best to preserve them by getting them out of the front line. IMO, Zergs may have gotten lazy in the last few months. Now, this is not to say that Sentries may or may not be psionic. From a lore perspective, I think only HT, DT, Archon and Ghost fit that bill. But to object to this on the grounds that the Infestor and fungal no longer "counters" the Sentry is off, IMO. They are still doing it, but as mentionned here, above, and in another post on frontpage, Zerg micro is almost irrelevant, all they can do is taking advantage of a Protoss doing a mistake, mainly with his forcefield, when executed properly, Immortal-sentry is like a single-player experience, it do not fail You never see zerg going tunneling claws before roach speed, is that because it can't work or doesn't work, or because it hasn't been fully explored? Leenock has actually done 2 roach warren builds before to get both upgrades super fast for specific timings in Code S, that should be worth some exploration. Symbol has showcased builds where he gets super fast lair and overlord drops so he can roach bomb all over the immortal/sentry army and negate the sentries entirely. I don't think zerg micro is irrelevant, I think their strategy against the push is simply flawed. The usual method is to bash your head against a build purely designed to crush someone bashing their head against it. Hell, TLO has showcased a strategy that seems effective, he puts a bunch of spines up in his main by the ramp, makes a nydus worm, basetrades his enemy, and uses the nydus worm to retreat his army back to his main when the push comes up the ramp, using the combination of his army plus all the spines and the narrow choke that is the main ramp to crush the push, and then he's won. From a purely strategic standpoint, fighting the immortal sentry push head on without a way to bypass or ignore the forcefields is playing to the push's strengths. If that means zerg needs to stay on 2 bases a little longer and get the third at 6:00 instead of 4:00 so he can get a quicker gas, then so be it, that's a good thing for the matchup. The immortal sentry push is designed entirely as a response to a low gas/tech zerg who took a super fast 3rd and droned heavily. You can beat it simply by not doing that. Startale_Curious does a 2 base quicker gas build with a 6:00 third quite often in ZvP in code S. Think outside the box. You don't have to do the stephano build every game. Yeah going 2-hatch might mean the Toss doesn't choose the Immortal/Sentry build but that choice doesn't really affect them in a meaningful way (because 3-hatch is scouted so early) and yet leaves the Zerg a little behind economically. As a rule I hate any strat that means basetrade also.
But you aren't behind economically, that's a misconception. You are behind economically compared to a gasless 3 base stephano style build, but you aren't behind compared to the protoss. You are trading a little bit of economy for tech, that's an even trade. Being behind is a commonly misused phrase. What it actually means is that, given your choice of strategy, you are behind where you should be due to a mistake you made or a well played move your opponent made that hindered you. Exchanging economy for tech does not put you behind, it puts you behind if you fail to make use of your advantage (which is in tech). A 6 minute third base with some earlier gas does mean you have fewer drones, but it isn't that much fewer that you're suddenly behind economically. It merely means your advantage isn't in the ability to produce tons of roaches, but rather to produce gas heavier units like infestors, mutalisks, or even hydralisks.
You shouldn't hate basetrades on principle, it's one of zerg's strongest options. Whichever race has high dps fast units (zerglings!) should favor basetrades as a general rule. Refusing to consider it is handicapping yourself. You even have buildings that can move!
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thumb up for both changes.
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I like the infestor change for everything except warp prism. That's going to force everyone to go for mutas/ fast spire which will make protoss complain about muta's. The raven change i think will be interesting, but still not as effective in TvZ as they want it to be.
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On November 21 2012 14:12 TimENT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 13:52 TheDwf wrote:
MMA dropped Tanks behind DRG's army in their famous TDA game
That was on Shakuras.
No, it was TDA.
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On November 21 2012 14:16 ToKoreaWithLove wrote:
I don't understand the full implications here, but would this not make the protoss pre-bl push stronger at the same time as making templar/archon better for late game?
pushes like chargelot archon immortal become a bit stronger but not drastically, with pushes like these you only have maybe 3-5 archons max with 4-5 HT for feedback/storm. These pushes are somewhat strong and are usually stopped by good zerg concaves + fungal.
Will the nerf to fungal impact this? Yeah, but not drastically. 3 base timings will be slightly stronger but no so much that it would become broken in protoss favor
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But you aren't behind economically, that's a misconception. You are behind economically compared to a gasless 3 base stephano style build, but you aren't behind compared to the protoss. You are trading a little bit of economy for tech, that's an even trade. Being behind is a commonly misused phrase. What it actually means is that, given your choice of strategy, you are behind where you should be due to a mistake you made or a well played move your opponent made that hindered you. Exchanging economy for tech does not put you behind, it puts you behind if you fail to make use of your advantage (which is in tech).
You are playing on words here, what matter is how are you next to your opponent, not just to your "personal advancement."
If the protoss put his nexus before you drop your hatch and then is able to put his 3rd as soon as you put yours, since a race have cost effective units and the other do not, the Zerg is behind
The tech advantage is meaningless, you unlock the tech faster, with your 3rd barely droned and a low gas count you wont have the economy to sustain the production of these units
You have one momentum of upgrade/tech kicking in then it go lower and lower, this is classic old school ZvP, Protoss just defend the mediocre all-in then keep trading cost effectively, at one point the Zerg just die because he dont have the economy to compete.
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Just played a ZvT (I'm Diamond, opponent Masters. His timings seemed efficient and he had 4 base to my 3 base infestor brood lord turtle close spawns.) Here's a timeline of the match, where he was ahead + scouting and I still managed to win because my micro was easier.
Openings:
He goes CC first and I 15 hatch. We both take 3rds at the same time, and I try to break his third with a roach + ling attack, but his siege tanks defend it with ease.
Mid Game:
His first marine tank push to break my 3rd was crushed from my infested terran's tanking siege tank fire, and then pushing in with 2/2 lings + fungal against his 2/1 marines.
Mid-Late Game:
He was able to contain me to 3 bases while taking the 4th in the center of map with siege tank contain. I start fast teching to BL/corrupter + 3/3 and adrenal glands. He adds on additional barracks + starports.
Late Game:
He makes a bunch of ghosts and ravens to react to my fast tech switch. I break his 4th with my first Brood lords, and he cloaks his ghosts to snipe my infestors. I have overseers with my army so his ghosts get taken out with ease (I think maybe he should've EMP'd my infestors instead though)
I engage the choke between his natural + third and his ravens don't have the energy for seeker missile so he has to drop auto turrets (lol). I win the game with easy.
Analysis:
I think that Raven's are a reactionary unit, and if seeker missile's energy takes that long to be able to use, a BL/corrupter tech switch in the mid-late game is still too much to handle for the terran. I think that if the game went another 3-4 minutes he would've been better off, but that would require the Zerg player to sit at his base with a bunch of Brood Lords and not even use them. Also infested terrans are a cost-free siege tank meat shield for lings to get within range easily.
Obviously it wasn't a pro-level game, but I figured there was a lot of chatting without people playing the map yet so I would contribute. ^^
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EPT
