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On November 21 2012 14:32 Whitewing wrote:
Getting the 3rd at 6:00 isn't illogical, you're making a choice to defeat a potential build. If, as you say, the immortal/sentry build is unstoppable, then THE ONLY logical choice is to force your opponent not to do it however possible, or lose 100% of your games where your opponent opts for the attack. You aren't behind at all, where is this ridiculous idea coming from? You are making an even trade: some economy and pure numbers for much stronger tech at a timing where tech wins and no tech loses. You'll be playing it out differently than you are used to, but you still have a 3rd base way before your opponent does and you're a lot safer, and you should still be ahead economically of your opponent. If the all-in is unbeatable as you say given the fast 3rd base, then don't do the fast third base! That's like protoss complaining that a nexus first build can't hold against a 6 pool, so 6 pool should be nerfed. Maybe your strategy choice is simply risky, and your opponent has a build designed to punish that risk.
The fact of the matter is, you can limit your opponent's choices with your own choices. If you invest in fast zergling speed, your opponent can't move out at all until he can combat your zerglings and defend against a counter attack: that limits him. If you invest in mutalisks, your opponent can't move out of his bases at all until he can win a base trade by defending the mutas while also being strong enough to crush your whole army combined due to your mobility advantage. This limits your opponent. Why is teching a little earlier and taking a third a little later thought of so heinously? A 6:00 third is still quick.
Remember, stephano designed this build back before people were doing immortal/sentry pushes. Immortal/sentry was designed to kill a gasless 3rd, so if you're so concerned about the push, don't do a gasless third.
I dont know what are the TLO/Roach drop build so I wont comment but about the 3rd, it's not a choice, it's how the Zerg stay on-par with a FFE opening
As said above :
"The tech advantage is meaningless, you unlock the tech faster, with your 3rd barely droned and a low gas count you wont have the economy to sustain the production of these units
You have one momentum of upgrade/tech kicking in then it go lower and lower, this is classic old school ZvP, Protoss just defend the mediocre all-in then keep trading cost effectively, at one point the Zerg just die because he dont have the economy to compete."
Is what happen when you dont get that 3rd econ, trading econ for tech imply that you need to do damage with that Tech, Infestor dont allow to be aggressive mid-game, hydralisk are a jokes, muta can do damage but are expected from someone who dont scout a fast 3rd
Saying that a Zerg should fast 3rd is like saying a Protoss to not FFE, then you're behind and have to do damage somehow
Obviously this can create some kind of retarded discussion where both race defend their entitlement to the right of being aggressive, macroing etc, issue is that PvZ is a clusterfuck of tech and build, it's all about the build, micro and macro play very little in that matchup and are replaced by gimmicks, PvZ have a design issue before having a balance issue (I do not think protoss had massive issue agaisnt Zerg lately, unlike terrans)
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Not being able to fungal warp prisms and sentries will be too strong. Good luck vs protoss now lol.
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Bad bad change, Sentries and Warp Prism NEED to lose their psionic status or ZvP will become hillarious matchup.
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fungal still needs to be able to damage psionic units and reveal them or it jsut makes ghosts and DTs too strong
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Honestly I don't think the fungal changes really will affect HIGH LEVEL PLAY (or most play, but especially high level). No fungal warp prism. How many protoss honestly use warp prism harass? How many at the pro level? Am I to believe the numbers are so low because of fungal? No more fungalling clumps of high templar that shouldn't be clumped in the first place? Yay for casual players I guess. The only exception I see is the ghost, and if I don't see every terran making a more concentrated effort to snipe infestors, and more overseers with infestors as a result, I will be disappoint.
I think the seeker missile changes encourage odd timings that we'll see more of, but don't particularly help terran lategame or terran t3 in the long-term.
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United States7483 Posts
On November 21 2012 14:33 BoxingKangaroo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 14:16 Whitewing wrote:On November 21 2012 14:01 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On November 21 2012 13:42 Whitewing wrote:On November 21 2012 13:38 Protosnake wrote:On November 21 2012 13:33 aZealot wrote:On November 21 2012 13:11 Talack wrote:On November 21 2012 12:57 neoghaleon55 wrote:
so what's zerg suppose to do against sentry stalker 2,3 base allins now?
I'm really confused about this change. you're supposed to outplay them... : / Like are zerg players THIS dependant on fungal now? I really don't think it's a balance issue rather than a complete crutch at this point they refuse to stop using. Yeah, I tend to agree. Months before Infestors became popular, you'd see good Zergs target firing Sentries and good Protoss doing their best to preserve them by getting them out of the front line. IMO, Zergs may have gotten lazy in the last few months. Now, this is not to say that Sentries may or may not be psionic. From a lore perspective, I think only HT, DT, Archon and Ghost fit that bill. But to object to this on the grounds that the Infestor and fungal no longer "counters" the Sentry is off, IMO. They are still doing it, but as mentionned here, above, and in another post on frontpage, Zerg micro is almost irrelevant, all they can do is taking advantage of a Protoss doing a mistake, mainly with his forcefield, when executed properly, Immortal-sentry is like a single-player experience, it do not fail You never see zerg going tunneling claws before roach speed, is that because it can't work or doesn't work, or because it hasn't been fully explored? Leenock has actually done 2 roach warren builds before to get both upgrades super fast for specific timings in Code S, that should be worth some exploration. Symbol has showcased builds where he gets super fast lair and overlord drops so he can roach bomb all over the immortal/sentry army and negate the sentries entirely. I don't think zerg micro is irrelevant, I think their strategy against the push is simply flawed. The usual method is to bash your head against a build purely designed to crush someone bashing their head against it. Hell, TLO has showcased a strategy that seems effective, he puts a bunch of spines up in his main by the ramp, makes a nydus worm, basetrades his enemy, and uses the nydus worm to retreat his army back to his main when the push comes up the ramp, using the combination of his army plus all the spines and the narrow choke that is the main ramp to crush the push, and then he's won. From a purely strategic standpoint, fighting the immortal sentry push head on without a way to bypass or ignore the forcefields is playing to the push's strengths. If that means zerg needs to stay on 2 bases a little longer and get the third at 6:00 instead of 4:00 so he can get a quicker gas, then so be it, that's a good thing for the matchup. The immortal sentry push is designed entirely as a response to a low gas/tech zerg who took a super fast 3rd and droned heavily. You can beat it simply by not doing that. Startale_Curious does a 2 base quicker gas build with a 6:00 third quite often in ZvP in code S. Think outside the box. You don't have to do the stephano build every game. Yeah going 2-hatch might mean the Toss doesn't choose the Immortal/Sentry build but that choice doesn't really affect them in a meaningful way (because 3-hatch is scouted so early) and yet leaves the Zerg a little behind economically. As a rule I hate any strat that means basetrade also. But you aren't behind economically, that's a misconception. You are behind economically compared to a gasless 3 base stephano style build, but you aren't behind compared to the protoss. You are trading a little bit of economy for tech, that's an even trade. Being behind is a commonly misused phrase. What it actually means is that, given your choice of strategy, you are behind where you should be due to a mistake you made or a well played move your opponent made that hindered you. Exchanging economy for tech does not put you behind, it puts you behind if you fail to make use of your advantage (which is in tech). A 6 minute third base with some earlier gas does mean you have fewer drones, but it isn't that much fewer that you're suddenly behind economically. It merely means your advantage isn't in the ability to produce tons of roaches, but rather to produce gas heavier units like infestors, mutalisks, or even hydralisks. You shouldn't hate basetrades on principle, it's one of zerg's strongest options. Whichever race has high dps fast units (zerglings!) should favor basetrades as a general rule. Refusing to consider it is handicapping yourself. You even have buildings that can move! Well it's a pretty widely held belief that Zerg needs to be 'up' - both on drones and on bases to be equal with Terran and Toss. I hate basetrades on principle yes. I don't care if they're strong for Zerg. Strength of a unit or strat in regards to your race shouldn't change what you think of them. Gotta stay objective.
Well, that widely held belief has been shown to be wrong on multiple occasions, and remember, you're actually still up on bases and drones with protoss with a 6 minute third, just not AS up as you otherwise would be. You have a tech advantage compared to what you would otherwise have doing this, that advantage can be leveraged.
And um... that's the opposite of staying objective.
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On November 21 2012 15:09 Angel_ wrote:
Honestly I don't think the fungal changes really will affect HIGH LEVEL PLAY (or most play, but especially high level). No fungal warp prism. How many protoss honestly use warp prism harass? How many at the pro level? Am I to believe the numbers are so low because of fungal? No more fungalling clumps of high templar that shouldn't be clumped in the first place? Yay for casual players I guess. The only exception I see is the ghost, and if I don't see every terran making a more concentrated effort to snipe infestors, and more overseers with infestors as a result, I will be disappoint.
I think the seeker missile changes encourage odd timings that we'll see more of, but don't particularly help terran lategame or terran t3 in the long-term.
There's this thing called a sentry you might've heard of.
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stop fungal sentries is ok cuz they don't deal much damage, but stop Zerg from FG warp prism is a bit unfair to Terran cuz dropship can be FG.
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does anyone know lore wise why sentries and warp prisms are psionic? aren't they just machines?
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On November 21 2012 15:11 tuho12345 wrote:
stop fungal sentries is ok cuz they don't deal much damage, but stop Zerg from FG warp prism is a bit unfair to Terran cuz dropship can be FG.
Yes, sentries primary use is their DPS after all, right?
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As a zerg player, I'm more scared of DT plays now. It should at least be able to reveal cloaked units though, since Banshee and observers are not affected by this change. The inconsistency would be too much for lower levels.
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United States7483 Posts
On November 21 2012 15:00 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 14:32 Whitewing wrote:
Getting the 3rd at 6:00 isn't illogical, you're making a choice to defeat a potential build. If, as you say, the immortal/sentry build is unstoppable, then THE ONLY logical choice is to force your opponent not to do it however possible, or lose 100% of your games where your opponent opts for the attack. You aren't behind at all, where is this ridiculous idea coming from? You are making an even trade: some economy and pure numbers for much stronger tech at a timing where tech wins and no tech loses. You'll be playing it out differently than you are used to, but you still have a 3rd base way before your opponent does and you're a lot safer, and you should still be ahead economically of your opponent. If the all-in is unbeatable as you say given the fast 3rd base, then don't do the fast third base! That's like protoss complaining that a nexus first build can't hold against a 6 pool, so 6 pool should be nerfed. Maybe your strategy choice is simply risky, and your opponent has a build designed to punish that risk.
The fact of the matter is, you can limit your opponent's choices with your own choices. If you invest in fast zergling speed, your opponent can't move out at all until he can combat your zerglings and defend against a counter attack: that limits him. If you invest in mutalisks, your opponent can't move out of his bases at all until he can win a base trade by defending the mutas while also being strong enough to crush your whole army combined due to your mobility advantage. This limits your opponent. Why is teching a little earlier and taking a third a little later thought of so heinously? A 6:00 third is still quick.
Remember, stephano designed this build back before people were doing immortal/sentry pushes. Immortal/sentry was designed to kill a gasless 3rd, so if you're so concerned about the push, don't do a gasless third. I dont know what are the TLO/Roach drop build so I wont comment but about the 3rd, it's not a choice, it's how the Zerg stay on-par with a FFE opening As said above : "The tech advantage is meaningless, you unlock the tech faster, with your 3rd barely droned and a low gas count you wont have the economy to sustain the production of these units You have one momentum of upgrade/tech kicking in then it go lower and lower, this is classic old school ZvP, Protoss just defend the mediocre all-in then keep trading cost effectively, at one point the Zerg just die because he dont have the economy to compete." Is what happen when you dont get that 3rd econ, trading econ for tech imply that you need to do damage with that Tech, Infestor dont allow to be aggressive mid-game, hydralisk are a jokes, muta can do damage but are expected from someone who dont scout a fast 3rd Saying that a Zerg should fast 3rd is like saying a Protoss to not FFE, then you're behind and have to do damage somehow Obviously this can create some kind of retarded discussion where both race defend their entitlement to the right of being aggressive, macroing etc, issue is that PvZ is a clusterfuck of tech and build, it's all about the build, micro and macro play very little in that matchup and are replaced by gimmicks, PvZ have a design issue before having a balance issue (I do not think protoss had massive issue agaisnt Zerg lately, unlike terrans)
Zerg doesn't need to take a 4 minute third to 'stay even' with protoss. Actually, if you notice, with the 4 minute third, you are actually behind in drones for a while until you eventually catch up then pass protoss, because you invested in a third base so quickly instead of getting quicker queens and drones. With a 6 minute third and a little earlier gas, you still stay even with protoss on economy, you just don't get so far ahead. And again, which is better to you? Dying to an unholdable push because you didn't tech, or being more even on economy? Either you believe there's a reliable way to always hold vs. the immortal/sentry push, or you should do a different build. Note: the immortal sentry build is strong because it hits at a time where zerg, who has been behind protoss in economy for a while due to a super fast third, has just passed protoss in economy but hasn't had time to leverage that advantage. In other words, it is strong specifically because you don't have time to leverage that third base into an advantage.
And who said you had to go all-in with your tech? Had it occured to you that you might make a strong defensive unit with your tech advantage and expand again or even double expand? Remember when zergs would do a 2 base muta build, then expand rapidly while constantly making mutalisks? That's a tech build, and that's levering a tech advantage. Even if it doesn't do damage it still pins your opponent. What if you went infestors and used them in conjuction with spines and extra queens for creep in order to take a fourth base safely? Given the fact that you have the option of doing an IT bomb with infestors, your enemy can't take a fourth earlier than 13 minutes, and probably will have trouble taking a third against an IT bomb without early colossus.
Zergs have gotten so stuck on the gasless 3 bases that they won't even consider alternatives. By the way, there are GSL who still do early gas and then 6:00 3rd builds in ZvP (STCurious is a notable one).
Remember when zergs were convinced that you had to go roach/hydra no matter what in ZvP, otherwise you didn't have enough dps in your army? Just because something is the trend doesn't mean it has to stay that way.
Serious question for all the zergs out there: why do you feel it is a right to be able to, in ZvP, go zergling into roach into infestor into broodlords as your composition? Protoss can't go directly into archon mothership, we need to do sentry/immortal as a bridge composition to take a third base, and then need to add high templar or colossi in order to defend against infested terran bombs. Terran has to constantly add in new units in their composition, adding in siege tanks to defend against roach busts or die to them if they come, mixing in hellions for map control and zergling defense, they can't just rush straight to their perfect composition off of the strength of one or two units. Why should zerg be able to open with hatch tech units then rush straight to end game composition? There should be a transition there, a bridge of some kind that gets them there. One of the biggest design flaws is that they don't need one, which is why broodlord/infestor is always out way before the equivalent protoss (carrier/archon/mothership/high templar with some stalkers and maybe some colossi) or terran (marine/ghost/battlecruiser/raven/thor) army is. Hell, terran's can't even TRY to get their ultra late game army out most games, let alone figure out the transition, they simply never have the time. You know why we never see BC's or late game sky terran armies? It's not because the units are weak or suck, it's because they can't survive long enough to get them out with the upgrades they need, zerg gets to their end game army too fast and is too dangerous. Protoss rarely gets to make carriers, and only when zerg decides to turtle on his already finished army for 10 minutes.
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On November 21 2012 15:04 Narw wrote:
Bad bad change, Sentries and Warp Prism NEED to lose their psionic status or ZvP will become hillarious matchup.
Like it currently is with infestors > every toss unit?
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On November 21 2012 15:14 RockIronrod wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 15:11 tuho12345 wrote:
stop fungal sentries is ok cuz they don't deal much damage, but stop Zerg from FG warp prism is a bit unfair to Terran cuz dropship can be FG. Yes, sentries primary use is their DPS after all, right?
no, but 2-3 FG can kill the entire gas expensive army of sentries is absurd.
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On November 21 2012 15:11 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 14:33 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On November 21 2012 14:16 Whitewing wrote:On November 21 2012 14:01 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On November 21 2012 13:42 Whitewing wrote:On November 21 2012 13:38 Protosnake wrote:On November 21 2012 13:33 aZealot wrote:On November 21 2012 13:11 Talack wrote:On November 21 2012 12:57 neoghaleon55 wrote:
so what's zerg suppose to do against sentry stalker 2,3 base allins now?
I'm really confused about this change. you're supposed to outplay them... : / Like are zerg players THIS dependant on fungal now? I really don't think it's a balance issue rather than a complete crutch at this point they refuse to stop using. Yeah, I tend to agree. Months before Infestors became popular, you'd see good Zergs target firing Sentries and good Protoss doing their best to preserve them by getting them out of the front line. IMO, Zergs may have gotten lazy in the last few months. Now, this is not to say that Sentries may or may not be psionic. From a lore perspective, I think only HT, DT, Archon and Ghost fit that bill. But to object to this on the grounds that the Infestor and fungal no longer "counters" the Sentry is off, IMO. They are still doing it, but as mentionned here, above, and in another post on frontpage, Zerg micro is almost irrelevant, all they can do is taking advantage of a Protoss doing a mistake, mainly with his forcefield, when executed properly, Immortal-sentry is like a single-player experience, it do not fail You never see zerg going tunneling claws before roach speed, is that because it can't work or doesn't work, or because it hasn't been fully explored? Leenock has actually done 2 roach warren builds before to get both upgrades super fast for specific timings in Code S, that should be worth some exploration. Symbol has showcased builds where he gets super fast lair and overlord drops so he can roach bomb all over the immortal/sentry army and negate the sentries entirely. I don't think zerg micro is irrelevant, I think their strategy against the push is simply flawed. The usual method is to bash your head against a build purely designed to crush someone bashing their head against it. Hell, TLO has showcased a strategy that seems effective, he puts a bunch of spines up in his main by the ramp, makes a nydus worm, basetrades his enemy, and uses the nydus worm to retreat his army back to his main when the push comes up the ramp, using the combination of his army plus all the spines and the narrow choke that is the main ramp to crush the push, and then he's won. From a purely strategic standpoint, fighting the immortal sentry push head on without a way to bypass or ignore the forcefields is playing to the push's strengths. If that means zerg needs to stay on 2 bases a little longer and get the third at 6:00 instead of 4:00 so he can get a quicker gas, then so be it, that's a good thing for the matchup. The immortal sentry push is designed entirely as a response to a low gas/tech zerg who took a super fast 3rd and droned heavily. You can beat it simply by not doing that. Startale_Curious does a 2 base quicker gas build with a 6:00 third quite often in ZvP in code S. Think outside the box. You don't have to do the stephano build every game. Yeah going 2-hatch might mean the Toss doesn't choose the Immortal/Sentry build but that choice doesn't really affect them in a meaningful way (because 3-hatch is scouted so early) and yet leaves the Zerg a little behind economically. As a rule I hate any strat that means basetrade also. But you aren't behind economically, that's a misconception. You are behind economically compared to a gasless 3 base stephano style build, but you aren't behind compared to the protoss. You are trading a little bit of economy for tech, that's an even trade. Being behind is a commonly misused phrase. What it actually means is that, given your choice of strategy, you are behind where you should be due to a mistake you made or a well played move your opponent made that hindered you. Exchanging economy for tech does not put you behind, it puts you behind if you fail to make use of your advantage (which is in tech). A 6 minute third base with some earlier gas does mean you have fewer drones, but it isn't that much fewer that you're suddenly behind economically. It merely means your advantage isn't in the ability to produce tons of roaches, but rather to produce gas heavier units like infestors, mutalisks, or even hydralisks. You shouldn't hate basetrades on principle, it's one of zerg's strongest options. Whichever race has high dps fast units (zerglings!) should favor basetrades as a general rule. Refusing to consider it is handicapping yourself. You even have buildings that can move! Well it's a pretty widely held belief that Zerg needs to be 'up' - both on drones and on bases to be equal with Terran and Toss. I hate basetrades on principle yes. I don't care if they're strong for Zerg. Strength of a unit or strat in regards to your race shouldn't change what you think of them. Gotta stay objective. Well, that widely held belief has been shown to be wrong on multiple occasions, and remember, you're actually still up on bases and drones with protoss with a 6 minute third, just not AS up as you otherwise would be. You have a tech advantage compared to what you would otherwise have doing this, that advantage can be leveraged. And um... that's the opposite of staying objective.
Objective: undistorted by emotion or personal bias
My opinion on the stupidity of basetrades is objective, because I don't let the fact that they're strong for Zerg (and therefore make my ladder easier) cloud my opinion of them.
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United States7483 Posts
On November 21 2012 15:15 SoraLimit wrote:
As a zerg player, I'm more scared of DT plays now. It should at least be able to reveal cloaked units though, since Banshee and observers are not affected by this change. The inconsistency would be too much for lower levels.
You could just make sure to make overseers, they aren't particularly expensive and DT's can't even attempt to snipe them like they can against spore crawlers.
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On November 21 2012 15:11 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 14:33 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On November 21 2012 14:16 Whitewing wrote:On November 21 2012 14:01 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On November 21 2012 13:42 Whitewing wrote:On November 21 2012 13:38 Protosnake wrote:On November 21 2012 13:33 aZealot wrote:On November 21 2012 13:11 Talack wrote:On November 21 2012 12:57 neoghaleon55 wrote:
so what's zerg suppose to do against sentry stalker 2,3 base allins now?
I'm really confused about this change. you're supposed to outplay them... : / Like are zerg players THIS dependant on fungal now? I really don't think it's a balance issue rather than a complete crutch at this point they refuse to stop using. Yeah, I tend to agree. Months before Infestors became popular, you'd see good Zergs target firing Sentries and good Protoss doing their best to preserve them by getting them out of the front line. IMO, Zergs may have gotten lazy in the last few months. Now, this is not to say that Sentries may or may not be psionic. From a lore perspective, I think only HT, DT, Archon and Ghost fit that bill. But to object to this on the grounds that the Infestor and fungal no longer "counters" the Sentry is off, IMO. They are still doing it, but as mentionned here, above, and in another post on frontpage, Zerg micro is almost irrelevant, all they can do is taking advantage of a Protoss doing a mistake, mainly with his forcefield, when executed properly, Immortal-sentry is like a single-player experience, it do not fail You never see zerg going tunneling claws before roach speed, is that because it can't work or doesn't work, or because it hasn't been fully explored? Leenock has actually done 2 roach warren builds before to get both upgrades super fast for specific timings in Code S, that should be worth some exploration. Symbol has showcased builds where he gets super fast lair and overlord drops so he can roach bomb all over the immortal/sentry army and negate the sentries entirely. I don't think zerg micro is irrelevant, I think their strategy against the push is simply flawed. The usual method is to bash your head against a build purely designed to crush someone bashing their head against it. Hell, TLO has showcased a strategy that seems effective, he puts a bunch of spines up in his main by the ramp, makes a nydus worm, basetrades his enemy, and uses the nydus worm to retreat his army back to his main when the push comes up the ramp, using the combination of his army plus all the spines and the narrow choke that is the main ramp to crush the push, and then he's won. From a purely strategic standpoint, fighting the immortal sentry push head on without a way to bypass or ignore the forcefields is playing to the push's strengths. If that means zerg needs to stay on 2 bases a little longer and get the third at 6:00 instead of 4:00 so he can get a quicker gas, then so be it, that's a good thing for the matchup. The immortal sentry push is designed entirely as a response to a low gas/tech zerg who took a super fast 3rd and droned heavily. You can beat it simply by not doing that. Startale_Curious does a 2 base quicker gas build with a 6:00 third quite often in ZvP in code S. Think outside the box. You don't have to do the stephano build every game. Yeah going 2-hatch might mean the Toss doesn't choose the Immortal/Sentry build but that choice doesn't really affect them in a meaningful way (because 3-hatch is scouted so early) and yet leaves the Zerg a little behind economically. As a rule I hate any strat that means basetrade also. But you aren't behind economically, that's a misconception. You are behind economically compared to a gasless 3 base stephano style build, but you aren't behind compared to the protoss. You are trading a little bit of economy for tech, that's an even trade. Being behind is a commonly misused phrase. What it actually means is that, given your choice of strategy, you are behind where you should be due to a mistake you made or a well played move your opponent made that hindered you. Exchanging economy for tech does not put you behind, it puts you behind if you fail to make use of your advantage (which is in tech). A 6 minute third base with some earlier gas does mean you have fewer drones, but it isn't that much fewer that you're suddenly behind economically. It merely means your advantage isn't in the ability to produce tons of roaches, but rather to produce gas heavier units like infestors, mutalisks, or even hydralisks. You shouldn't hate basetrades on principle, it's one of zerg's strongest options. Whichever race has high dps fast units (zerglings!) should favor basetrades as a general rule. Refusing to consider it is handicapping yourself. You even have buildings that can move! Well it's a pretty widely held belief that Zerg needs to be 'up' - both on drones and on bases to be equal with Terran and Toss. I hate basetrades on principle yes. I don't care if they're strong for Zerg. Strength of a unit or strat in regards to your race shouldn't change what you think of them. Gotta stay objective. Well, that widely held belief has been shown to be wrong on multiple occasions, and remember, you're actually still up on bases and drones with protoss with a 6 minute third, just not AS up as you otherwise would be. You have a tech advantage compared to what you would otherwise have doing this, that advantage can be leveraged. And um... that's the opposite of staying objective.
Wtf world do we live in where the pre 5min hatch is essential.
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I hate the fungal growth change. That's not the correct decision in terms of game design, irregardless of balance.
First, having immunities downgrade the spectator experience because it brings prerequisite knowledge to the table. Otherwise, you are left wondering why the feck aren't those units being fungaled. Visually, it doesn't make sense.
Second, the moment you are artificially picking units to be immune or break certain spells(force fields, fungal), then you should realize that you have major design flaw on your hands.
I think Blizz should try harder and work from the ground up again. Adding exceptions like this this is taking the easy way out.
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On November 21 2012 15:23 tuho12345 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 15:14 RockIronrod wrote:On November 21 2012 15:11 tuho12345 wrote:
stop fungal sentries is ok cuz they don't deal much damage, but stop Zerg from FG warp prism is a bit unfair to Terran cuz dropship can be FG. Yes, sentries primary use is their DPS after all, right? no, but 2-3 FG can kill the entire gas expensive army of sentries is absurd.
And 25 mins worth of Zerglings can kill infinite HT, the solution isn't to make the unit completely immune to ling attacks though.
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United States7483 Posts
On November 21 2012 15:26 BoxingKangaroo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 15:11 Whitewing wrote:On November 21 2012 14:33 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On November 21 2012 14:16 Whitewing wrote:On November 21 2012 14:01 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On November 21 2012 13:42 Whitewing wrote:On November 21 2012 13:38 Protosnake wrote:On November 21 2012 13:33 aZealot wrote:On November 21 2012 13:11 Talack wrote:On November 21 2012 12:57 neoghaleon55 wrote:
so what's zerg suppose to do against sentry stalker 2,3 base allins now?
I'm really confused about this change. you're supposed to outplay them... : / Like are zerg players THIS dependant on fungal now? I really don't think it's a balance issue rather than a complete crutch at this point they refuse to stop using. Yeah, I tend to agree. Months before Infestors became popular, you'd see good Zergs target firing Sentries and good Protoss doing their best to preserve them by getting them out of the front line. IMO, Zergs may have gotten lazy in the last few months. Now, this is not to say that Sentries may or may not be psionic. From a lore perspective, I think only HT, DT, Archon and Ghost fit that bill. But to object to this on the grounds that the Infestor and fungal no longer "counters" the Sentry is off, IMO. They are still doing it, but as mentionned here, above, and in another post on frontpage, Zerg micro is almost irrelevant, all they can do is taking advantage of a Protoss doing a mistake, mainly with his forcefield, when executed properly, Immortal-sentry is like a single-player experience, it do not fail You never see zerg going tunneling claws before roach speed, is that because it can't work or doesn't work, or because it hasn't been fully explored? Leenock has actually done 2 roach warren builds before to get both upgrades super fast for specific timings in Code S, that should be worth some exploration. Symbol has showcased builds where he gets super fast lair and overlord drops so he can roach bomb all over the immortal/sentry army and negate the sentries entirely. I don't think zerg micro is irrelevant, I think their strategy against the push is simply flawed. The usual method is to bash your head against a build purely designed to crush someone bashing their head against it. Hell, TLO has showcased a strategy that seems effective, he puts a bunch of spines up in his main by the ramp, makes a nydus worm, basetrades his enemy, and uses the nydus worm to retreat his army back to his main when the push comes up the ramp, using the combination of his army plus all the spines and the narrow choke that is the main ramp to crush the push, and then he's won. From a purely strategic standpoint, fighting the immortal sentry push head on without a way to bypass or ignore the forcefields is playing to the push's strengths. If that means zerg needs to stay on 2 bases a little longer and get the third at 6:00 instead of 4:00 so he can get a quicker gas, then so be it, that's a good thing for the matchup. The immortal sentry push is designed entirely as a response to a low gas/tech zerg who took a super fast 3rd and droned heavily. You can beat it simply by not doing that. Startale_Curious does a 2 base quicker gas build with a 6:00 third quite often in ZvP in code S. Think outside the box. You don't have to do the stephano build every game. Yeah going 2-hatch might mean the Toss doesn't choose the Immortal/Sentry build but that choice doesn't really affect them in a meaningful way (because 3-hatch is scouted so early) and yet leaves the Zerg a little behind economically. As a rule I hate any strat that means basetrade also. But you aren't behind economically, that's a misconception. You are behind economically compared to a gasless 3 base stephano style build, but you aren't behind compared to the protoss. You are trading a little bit of economy for tech, that's an even trade. Being behind is a commonly misused phrase. What it actually means is that, given your choice of strategy, you are behind where you should be due to a mistake you made or a well played move your opponent made that hindered you. Exchanging economy for tech does not put you behind, it puts you behind if you fail to make use of your advantage (which is in tech). A 6 minute third base with some earlier gas does mean you have fewer drones, but it isn't that much fewer that you're suddenly behind economically. It merely means your advantage isn't in the ability to produce tons of roaches, but rather to produce gas heavier units like infestors, mutalisks, or even hydralisks. You shouldn't hate basetrades on principle, it's one of zerg's strongest options. Whichever race has high dps fast units (zerglings!) should favor basetrades as a general rule. Refusing to consider it is handicapping yourself. You even have buildings that can move! Well it's a pretty widely held belief that Zerg needs to be 'up' - both on drones and on bases to be equal with Terran and Toss. I hate basetrades on principle yes. I don't care if they're strong for Zerg. Strength of a unit or strat in regards to your race shouldn't change what you think of them. Gotta stay objective. Well, that widely held belief has been shown to be wrong on multiple occasions, and remember, you're actually still up on bases and drones with protoss with a 6 minute third, just not AS up as you otherwise would be. You have a tech advantage compared to what you would otherwise have doing this, that advantage can be leveraged. And um... that's the opposite of staying objective. Objective: undistorted by emotion or personal bias My opinion on the stupidity of basetrades is objective, because I don't let the fact that they're strong for Zerg (and therefore make my ladder easier) cloud my opinion of them.
Um, your opinion is subjective because you are letting the fact that you don't like them and think they are stupid prevent you from using a powerful tool your race has. Who gives a shit if it makes your ladder easier, are you actually taking a dump on tactics zergs use on a regular basis in tournaments to win? Terrans do it too once they realize they can't compete with broodlord/infestor (which is a slow composition and thus weak in a base trade).
Base trades are perfectly valid and legitimate tactics, and often times the only viable tactic if your opponent forces it. Refusing to consider it because you don't like it is definitely subjective. You are letting your personal bias distort your use of tactics and strategies, that's in the definition you linked -_-.
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