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United States7483 Posts
On November 21 2012 14:04 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 13:42 Whitewing wrote:On November 21 2012 13:38 Protosnake wrote:On November 21 2012 13:33 aZealot wrote:On November 21 2012 13:11 Talack wrote:On November 21 2012 12:57 neoghaleon55 wrote:
so what's zerg suppose to do against sentry stalker 2,3 base allins now?
I'm really confused about this change. you're supposed to outplay them... : / Like are zerg players THIS dependant on fungal now? I really don't think it's a balance issue rather than a complete crutch at this point they refuse to stop using. Yeah, I tend to agree. Months before Infestors became popular, you'd see good Zergs target firing Sentries and good Protoss doing their best to preserve them by getting them out of the front line. IMO, Zergs may have gotten lazy in the last few months. Now, this is not to say that Sentries may or may not be psionic. From a lore perspective, I think only HT, DT, Archon and Ghost fit that bill. But to object to this on the grounds that the Infestor and fungal no longer "counters" the Sentry is off, IMO. They are still doing it, but as mentionned here, above, and in another post on frontpage, Zerg micro is almost irrelevant, all they can do is taking advantage of a Protoss doing a mistake, mainly with his forcefield, when executed properly, Immortal-sentry is like a single-player experience, it do not fail You never see zerg going tunneling claws before roach speed, is that because it can't work or doesn't work, or because it hasn't been fully explored? Leenock has actually done 2 roach warren builds before to get both upgrades super fast for specific timings in Code S, that should be worth some exploration. Symbol has showcased builds where he gets super fast lair and overlord drops so he can roach bomb all over the immortal/sentry army and negate the sentries entirely. I don't think zerg micro is irrelevant, I think their strategy against the push is simply flawed. The usual method is to bash your head against a build purely designed to crush someone bashing their head against it. Hell, TLO has showcased a strategy that seems effective, he puts a bunch of spines up in his main by the ramp, makes a nydus worm, basetrades his enemy, and uses the nydus worm to retreat his army back to his main when the push comes up the ramp, using the combination of his army plus all the spines and the narrow choke that is the main ramp to crush the push, and then he's won. From a purely strategic standpoint, fighting the immortal sentry push head on without a way to bypass or ignore the forcefields is playing to the push's strengths. If that means zerg needs to stay on 2 bases a little longer and get the third at 6:00 instead of 4:00 so he can get a quicker gas, then so be it, that's a good thing for the matchup. The immortal sentry push is designed entirely as a response to a low gas/tech zerg who took a super fast 3rd and droned heavily. You can beat it simply by not doing that. Startale_Curious does a 2 base quicker gas build with a 6:00 third quite often in ZvP in code S. Think outside the box. You don't have to do the stephano build every game. I've seen plenty of zerg attempt tunneling claws against immortal-sentry, it's been pretty heavily tested and what usually happen is that they just rolled the very risky dice of going burrow against Robo, because if any observer is there the roaches just get murdered by the immortal+Forcefield, tunneling below just make the fight much shorter. Baneling drop rarely come in time, can get countered by micro and above all allow a protoss with warp prism to just spam warp Zealot in mineral line and win the game, because there is no roach to defend. I'd love to see that TLO build where he manage to get 3 base, a spine wall, a nydus, an army, a nydus in his opponents base, then have the time to come back to defend the all-in Getting the 3rd at 6:00 is illogical, if the protoss doesnt scout a fast 3rd base he wont all-in, he's already ahead, all he have to do is play the safe macro game and just crush the Z mid game with a FF/colossus spam (Old time PvZ) Even if he's all-in it the zerg didnt gained many ways to deal with it, unless he went muta, the main reason why a Protoss dont go immortal-allin against a 2base Z So maybe there are mysterious timing that have not yet been explored, but they tried very hard and so far nothing did the job. I personally am convinced that nothing can stop this all-in in WoL, but swarm host can.
Have you seen symbol do the roach drop? I'm not talking about a baneling drop, he doesn't get banelings, he skips them to get faster drops. He's showcased it in GSL a few times, he does a mass roach drop all over the toss army to negate the sentries entirely.
The TLO build I'm referring to pulls all drones out of the third and natural (when the push is almost there, he doesn't do it super early) and doesn't even attempt to defend them, he actually spines his main base and sacrifices the natural and third to buy time. He puts the nydus network in his main and sends all his roaches immediately to his opponent's base as soon as the push moves out. If protoss doesn't turn around, he basetrades, busting down the nexii and crippling protoss enough. He builds the nydus worm to retreat after he's busted open the base, not before. He doesn't attack with the nydus, he builds it so his units can get back into his main. He builds a lot of spines in his main covering his ramp, and pulls his roaches out to fight at the ramp when protoss tries to bust up. What winds up happening is protoss has no economy and no production, and zerg has one mining base and units, along with tech.
Getting the 3rd at 6:00 isn't illogical, you're making a choice to defeat a potential build. If, as you say, the immortal/sentry build is unstoppable, then THE ONLY logical choice is to force your opponent not to do it however possible, or lose 100% of your games where your opponent opts for the attack. You aren't behind at all, where is this ridiculous idea coming from? You are making an even trade: some economy and pure numbers for much stronger tech at a timing where tech wins and no tech loses. You'll be playing it out differently than you are used to, but you still have a 3rd base way before your opponent does and you're a lot safer, and you should still be ahead economically of your opponent. If the all-in is unbeatable as you say given the fast 3rd base, then don't do the fast third base! That's like protoss complaining that a nexus first build can't hold against a 6 pool, so 6 pool should be nerfed. Maybe your strategy choice is simply risky, and your opponent has a build designed to punish that risk.
The fact of the matter is, you can limit your opponent's choices with your own choices. If you invest in fast zergling speed, your opponent can't move out at all until he can combat your zerglings and defend against a counter attack: that limits him. If you invest in mutalisks, your opponent can't move out of his bases at all until he can win a base trade by defending the mutas while also being strong enough to crush your whole army combined due to your mobility advantage. This limits your opponent. Why is teching a little earlier and taking a third a little later thought of so heinously? A 6:00 third is still quick.
Remember, stephano designed this build back before people were doing immortal/sentry pushes. Immortal/sentry was designed to kill a gasless 3rd, so if you're so concerned about the push, don't do a gasless third.
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On November 21 2012 14:16 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 14:01 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On November 21 2012 13:42 Whitewing wrote:On November 21 2012 13:38 Protosnake wrote:On November 21 2012 13:33 aZealot wrote:On November 21 2012 13:11 Talack wrote:On November 21 2012 12:57 neoghaleon55 wrote:
so what's zerg suppose to do against sentry stalker 2,3 base allins now?
I'm really confused about this change. you're supposed to outplay them... : / Like are zerg players THIS dependant on fungal now? I really don't think it's a balance issue rather than a complete crutch at this point they refuse to stop using. Yeah, I tend to agree. Months before Infestors became popular, you'd see good Zergs target firing Sentries and good Protoss doing their best to preserve them by getting them out of the front line. IMO, Zergs may have gotten lazy in the last few months. Now, this is not to say that Sentries may or may not be psionic. From a lore perspective, I think only HT, DT, Archon and Ghost fit that bill. But to object to this on the grounds that the Infestor and fungal no longer "counters" the Sentry is off, IMO. They are still doing it, but as mentionned here, above, and in another post on frontpage, Zerg micro is almost irrelevant, all they can do is taking advantage of a Protoss doing a mistake, mainly with his forcefield, when executed properly, Immortal-sentry is like a single-player experience, it do not fail You never see zerg going tunneling claws before roach speed, is that because it can't work or doesn't work, or because it hasn't been fully explored? Leenock has actually done 2 roach warren builds before to get both upgrades super fast for specific timings in Code S, that should be worth some exploration. Symbol has showcased builds where he gets super fast lair and overlord drops so he can roach bomb all over the immortal/sentry army and negate the sentries entirely. I don't think zerg micro is irrelevant, I think their strategy against the push is simply flawed. The usual method is to bash your head against a build purely designed to crush someone bashing their head against it. Hell, TLO has showcased a strategy that seems effective, he puts a bunch of spines up in his main by the ramp, makes a nydus worm, basetrades his enemy, and uses the nydus worm to retreat his army back to his main when the push comes up the ramp, using the combination of his army plus all the spines and the narrow choke that is the main ramp to crush the push, and then he's won. From a purely strategic standpoint, fighting the immortal sentry push head on without a way to bypass or ignore the forcefields is playing to the push's strengths. If that means zerg needs to stay on 2 bases a little longer and get the third at 6:00 instead of 4:00 so he can get a quicker gas, then so be it, that's a good thing for the matchup. The immortal sentry push is designed entirely as a response to a low gas/tech zerg who took a super fast 3rd and droned heavily. You can beat it simply by not doing that. Startale_Curious does a 2 base quicker gas build with a 6:00 third quite often in ZvP in code S. Think outside the box. You don't have to do the stephano build every game. Yeah going 2-hatch might mean the Toss doesn't choose the Immortal/Sentry build but that choice doesn't really affect them in a meaningful way (because 3-hatch is scouted so early) and yet leaves the Zerg a little behind economically. As a rule I hate any strat that means basetrade also. But you aren't behind economically, that's a misconception. You are behind economically compared to a gasless 3 base stephano style build, but you aren't behind compared to the protoss. You are trading a little bit of economy for tech, that's an even trade. Being behind is a commonly misused phrase. What it actually means is that, given your choice of strategy, you are behind where you should be due to a mistake you made or a well played move your opponent made that hindered you. Exchanging economy for tech does not put you behind, it puts you behind if you fail to make use of your advantage (which is in tech). A 6 minute third base with some earlier gas does mean you have fewer drones, but it isn't that much fewer that you're suddenly behind economically. It merely means your advantage isn't in the ability to produce tons of roaches, but rather to produce gas heavier units like infestors, mutalisks, or even hydralisks. You shouldn't hate basetrades on principle, it's one of zerg's strongest options. Whichever race has high dps fast units (zerglings!) should favor basetrades as a general rule. Refusing to consider it is handicapping yourself. You even have buildings that can move!
Well it's a pretty widely held belief that Zerg needs to be 'up' - both on drones and on bases to be equal with Terran and Toss.
I hate basetrades on principle yes. I don't care if they're strong for Zerg. Strength of a unit or strat in regards to your race shouldn't change what you think of them. Gotta stay objective.
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On November 21 2012 14:20 phodacbiet wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 14:12 TimENT wrote:On November 21 2012 13:52 TheDwf wrote:
MMA dropped Tanks behind DRG's army in their famous TDA game
That was on Shakuras. No, it was TDA.
No, it was Shakuras. Game 7 of the Blizzard Cup finals. It was the reason he won in the finals...
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Bad raven change. This is just going to further make terran stronger early game (raven timing attacks) while still not resolving the issue of groups of ravens being fungaled/unable to reach clusters of late game zerg air.
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What, no fungal on DTs? That's huge and, honestly, I'm not sure I like that. It's always been a really cool micro mechanic to fungal DTs to reveal them. It's a nice micro trick and I always love seeing it. Erm, not sure what to think of the fungal change but I think a lot of people will be pretty happy...
EDIT: Also just noticed: Warp prisms immune to fungal!? Now I think that is a bit overboard. It was really one of the only ways to kill of warp prisms late game.
Honestly, this change is so weird. Yeah, I agree GGlord/Winfestor was bad for the game, partly because it's imbalanced in certain scenarios and partly because of the broken game design. But, honestly, is this the way to go about this? Psionic units? I think this creates a lot of new balance problems while not quite addressing the old ones.
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Sad that Terran needs reminders in the form of buffs to get them to use already valid units that they just neglect. Mofd sad that Blizzard delivers. The psionic thing is just plain silly and shitty.
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On November 21 2012 11:21 avilo wrote:
Raven change does nothing. Blizzard is completely out of the loop or is too stubborn to really listen about why ravens suck. Sure, you don't research it now! Great! Absolutely nothing changes in the amount of time it takes for a raven to accumulate hunter seeker energy.
Nothing also changes in terms of unit interactions/unit compositions. There was never a problem before "oh i don't have seeker missile research!" The problem is the time it takes to accumulate energy to make the raven pay itself off.
Quite disappointing. I know a lot of uninformed people here though will eat this up like candy and think something got better when it has not.
Corvid reactor increasing raven starting energy to 100 basically solves all of the issues with ravens in terms of a shorter wait time for a seeker missile, and the raven being able to immediately pay itself off much like an infestor or other casters can (with 2 auto turrets/PDD).
Speak up Terrans or forever hold your peace.
As a terran player I will take anything blizzard is willing to give us. I don't remember the last time terran has received a buff but this is a big help to focusing on end game terran. I actually think this is a big enough change to even try out some sick SK terran again..
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On November 21 2012 14:34 TimENT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 14:20 phodacbiet wrote:On November 21 2012 14:12 TimENT wrote:On November 21 2012 13:52 TheDwf wrote:
MMA dropped Tanks behind DRG's army in their famous TDA game
That was on Shakuras. No, it was TDA. No, it was Shakuras. Game 7 of the Blizzard Cup finals. It was the reason he won in the finals...
He did it twice in that series. On TDA and on Shakuras.
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On November 21 2012 14:37 shizaep wrote:
What, no fungal on DTs? That's huge and, honestly, I'm not sure I like that. It's always been a really cool micro mechanic to fungal DTs to reveal them. It's a nice micro trick and I always love seeing it. Erm, not sure what to think of the fungal change but I think a lot of people will be pretty happy...
Because there are so many games with DTs running about. Meh fungal's more like storm now. I am really curious how this warp prism buff is going to play out. The problem was with actually winning the big battle not dropping zealots but this will buff that part of the game.
On November 21 2012 14:32 Whitewing wrote:
Remember, stephano designed this build back before people were doing immortal/sentry pushes. Immortal/sentry was designed to kill a gasless 3rd, so if you're so concerned about the push, don't do a gasless third.
On November 21 2012 14:44 ejac wrote:
While in general I'm for some changes to the infestor/broodlord composition, changing fungal so it doesn't affect psionic units largely misses the point I think most people would agree.
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On November 21 2012 14:37 Lumi wrote:
Sad that Terran needs reminders in the form of buffs to get them to use already valid units that they just neglect. Mofd sad that Blizzard delivers.
When has terran ever received a buff to get them to use their units? The thor? that shit got revoked. The ghost? that was actually proven to be a nerf more than a buff considering terrans need minerals more than gas.
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On November 21 2012 14:38 Lunareste wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 14:34 TimENT wrote:On November 21 2012 14:20 phodacbiet wrote:On November 21 2012 14:12 TimENT wrote:On November 21 2012 13:52 TheDwf wrote:
MMA dropped Tanks behind DRG's army in their famous TDA game
That was on Shakuras. No, it was TDA. No, it was Shakuras. Game 7 of the Blizzard Cup finals. It was the reason he won in the finals... He did it twice in that series. On TDA and on Shakuras.
So, what you're saying...MMA IS A BEAST
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still hoping that fungal becomes a projectile
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While in general I'm for some changes to the infestor/broodlord composition, changing fungal so it doesn't affect psionic units largely misses the point I think most people would agree.
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On November 21 2012 14:37 shizaep wrote:
What, no fungal on DTs? That's huge and, honestly, I'm not sure I like that. It's always been a really cool micro mechanic to fungal DTs to reveal them. It's a nice micro trick and I always love seeing it. Erm, not sure what to think of the fungal change but I think a lot of people will be pretty happy...
A cool micro mechanic that roots, does damage, and reveals invisible units in an area of effect. Micro'ing an overlord into an overseer is also pretty cool too. Maybe if it killed everything in a radius too.
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i feel that the changes might be a good change but not convinced yet that they are a good change. I feel like HSM could be cool change but might be too strong. also i fear that ghosts could just walk past everything cause they dont get fungaled and just emp all the infestors
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One thing I feel is an issue with ghosts in TvZ is that they're only effective unit vs unit function is vs infestors. Kind of how vikings are really only used to kill colossus in TvP. Sure, nukes are another option, but that's a whole other separate investment. What would make this change really significant would be to make ghosts viable vs low tier units again with a 45 or 50 damage dmg snipe vs non-massive units. 25 dmg snipe vs things such as zerglings is just not reasonable. Basically, making ghosts to knock out infestors in situations where the battle will occur immediately after the ghost-infestor interaction seems like a straight up even trade for the zerg even if you negate the infestors since the ghosts become basically useless afterwards.
Adding some utility to the ghost besides nuke, i.e. more reasonable snipe damage, would make it a more reasonable investment in TvZ. As of now, you invest in ghosts hoping to get your money back by negating infestors, which is not even guaranteed. A ghost without any infestors to counter is almost as useless as an infestor with no energy.
I'm exaggerating a little bit but hopefully you guys can understand my point.
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I'm pretty happy about these changes. Infestors have been the best unit in the game for far too long.
HSM change isn't amazing by any means, but it's a step in the right direction and should make the game more fun.
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this is great and all, but fix the fucking ladder map pool first off...i'm so sick of playing pvz on ladder antiga and i'm sure people are sick of close spawns as well...
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I don't even know why we're talking about pvz, I guess it's because it's the only matchup left these days
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I like the sound of both of these changes. Now DT's can sneak in and assassinate things. Warp prisms could be a balance issue, but we'll see. (aka build more spores tightwads!) Ghosts can now get more EMP and snipey goodness.
Not gonna lie, this map will bring me back from HotS beta; tomorrow.
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EPT
