EPTThis way, fungle can still be used against sentries, reveal dts, but it wont root ghosts and ht.
What do you guys think about it ?
Call to Action: Balance Testing (2012/11/20) - Page 13
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Insoleet
France1806 Posts
This way, fungle can still be used against sentries, reveal dts, but it wont root ghosts and ht. What do you guys think about it ? | ||
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Astro-Penguin
554 Posts
I'm at the point where I'm just ready to put this game down until HOTS, Blizzard is so ignorant to the current state of the game that it baffles me even given Blizzards recent track history with Bnet 0.2 and etc. Literally every twitter/interview I see now a days of a pro player includes some sort of comment about Zerg being to strong, even guys like Stephano have been admitting to it for ages. Even now we are seeing top end Korean Zerg begin to crush Immortal/Sentry play and 3 base timing attacks, once Protoss can no longer rely on those things are just going to spiral out of control. I'm really curious if someone would be willing to calculate the PvZ winrates without including all 2 base/3 base all ins, I'm sure the results would speak for themselves on the current late game balance. I'm so frustrated, but I'm even more frustrated and angry for both Protoss and Terran players at an even higher level who can do little to improve their current skills to overcome Zerg, I mean at least I have plenty of mistakes I can look to fix to try and eek out wins. Also I'm curious is the obsever considered a psyonic unit? Being able to fungal an observer is just flat out retarded. (Having an observer killed in battle and being unable to kill all his Infestors after they burrow is just stupid) | ||
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RyF
Austria508 Posts
On November 21 2012 11:15 TaKeTV_SC2Pro wrote: Antiga Ladder with Gold? WP Blizzard. i think because it's the most balanced map, even though zergs keep saying it's terran favoured. i am pretty sure that's not the case anymore. let's see whats going to happen... | ||
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pmp10
3399 Posts
I guess templar won't be affected much and archons never should have been vulnerable in the first place. Ghost may see some use now in TvZ fighting ultralisk/infestor but I doubt anything will change against broodlords. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
improve neural parasite somehow Those would be my suggestions T_T | ||
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thejamster
Canada71 Posts
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RockIronrod
Australia1369 Posts
On November 21 2012 15:33 RyF wrote: i think because it's the most balanced map, even though zergs keep saying it's terran favoured. i am pretty sure that's not the case anymore. let's see whats going to happen... Easy third, impossible fourth makes it too strong for Zerg early and much, much too strong for Terran late. That's not how map balance should be in my opinion. | ||
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NHY
1013 Posts
Immortal + sentry push will be just as strong since it hits before infestor. However, now that Z's late game isn't as strong we could use more maps that discourages such rush from P and encourages late game Z. Therefore we should see immortal + sentry push used less as maps used by tournaments change. As for the late game PvZ itself, infestor + BL would become much weaker as Z must rely less on infestors. From P point of view, not only will it's late game army be much stronger against infestors but WP harass will become much more effective. This seems to be a good direction to patch P since it requires more "skill" to do WP harass than "death ball." Regarding T I think this patch in current stage will unintentionally nerf T. SM buff isn't enough IMO. Unless Blizzard buffs T, they will have it pretty rough in coming map pool change. I believe changes to late game T against P and Z is needed. My primary concern is TvP. It's not that TvZ is any more balanced and TvP. Seeker Missile should work more like Fungal of Storm--late game splash damage addition. For starters, cast range should be increased from 6 to closely match FG and PS' 9. While removing SM upgrade is a buff to Raven and late game T, it isn't in the right direction. I understand SM should be treated carefully since it's damage stacks unlike FG or PS, but unless you have everything clumped up in 1 hot key, it is much less effective than either of them. Let's not forget that it also has friendly damage, travel time and that Raven is hardest to get between High Templar and Infestor. I don't foresee much harm in giving it a buff, although in that case removing SM upgrade should be given another consideration. | ||
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NightOfTheDead
Lithuania1711 Posts
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Astro-Penguin
554 Posts
On November 21 2012 15:43 NightOfTheDead wrote: Bad implementation. If they dont want to mess with psionic attribute, make it that it doesnt root psionic units at least. but damages them. Either way, Warp prism MUST lose psionic status, it is laughable. How is it laughable? You mean you actually have to use a unit that isn't an Infestor to counter something? Clearly this is unacceptable. | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
This change is ridiculous. Imagine if instead of removing KA from high templars they made light units immune to storm. | ||
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Ryder.
1117 Posts
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Novalisk
Israel1818 Posts
Come on Blizzard, even X-Men wouldn't get away with this shit. | ||
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Tsubbi
Germany7996 Posts
"hey guys, winrates are eben but almost every protoss unit wont be effected by fungal, have a nice day" how can they even remotely think that this is a small change? also why wouldnt they compensate for it if they see equal winrates? like removing hydra upgrade or making it scale better with attack upgrades.. the raven change is a good idea though | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On November 21 2012 15:47 Novalisk wrote: In what world does a biological attack not work against stuff with psychic capabilities? Come on Blizzard, even X-Men wouldn't get away with this shit. How does the hellbat being biological make sense either? How come the sentry and the queen are psionic but the raven isn't? It's a game, not everything has to make sense. | ||
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shockaslim
United States1105 Posts
On November 21 2012 15:36 RockIronrod wrote: Easy third, impossible fourth makes it too strong for Zerg early and much, much too strong for Terran late. That's not how map balance should be in my opinion. Zergs don't play that map properly to be honest with you in TvZ. Opening with muta/ling/bane to secure the two side bases while keeping the Terran contained on 3 sets up Zerg for a very strong late game where the Terran can only get ahead with a really good engagement rather than an economical lead.. Zergs however forget there is a mid-game and just go straight for the Brood Lord/Infestor. | ||
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BeeNu
615 Posts
On November 21 2012 14:32 Whitewing wrote: Have you seen symbol do the roach drop? I'm not talking about a baneling drop, he doesn't get banelings, he skips them to get faster drops. He's showcased it in GSL a few times, he does a mass roach drop all over the toss army to negate the sentries entirely. The TLO build I'm referring to pulls all drones out of the third and natural (when the push is almost there, he doesn't do it super early) and doesn't even attempt to defend them, he actually spines his main base and sacrifices the natural and third to buy time. He puts the nydus network in his main and sends all his roaches immediately to his opponent's base as soon as the push moves out. If protoss doesn't turn around, he basetrades, busting down the nexii and crippling protoss enough. He builds the nydus worm to retreat after he's busted open the base, not before. He doesn't attack with the nydus, he builds it so his units can get back into his main. He builds a lot of spines in his main covering his ramp, and pulls his roaches out to fight at the ramp when protoss tries to bust up. What winds up happening is protoss has no economy and no production, and zerg has one mining base and units, along with tech. Getting the 3rd at 6:00 isn't illogical, you're making a choice to defeat a potential build. If, as you say, the immortal/sentry build is unstoppable, then THE ONLY logical choice is to force your opponent not to do it however possible, or lose 100% of your games where your opponent opts for the attack. You aren't behind at all, where is this ridiculous idea coming from? You are making an even trade: some economy and pure numbers for much stronger tech at a timing where tech wins and no tech loses. You'll be playing it out differently than you are used to, but you still have a 3rd base way before your opponent does and you're a lot safer, and you should still be ahead economically of your opponent. If the all-in is unbeatable as you say given the fast 3rd base, then don't do the fast third base! That's like protoss complaining that a nexus first build can't hold against a 6 pool, so 6 pool should be nerfed. Maybe your strategy choice is simply risky, and your opponent has a build designed to punish that risk. The fact of the matter is, you can limit your opponent's choices with your own choices. If you invest in fast zergling speed, your opponent can't move out at all until he can combat your zerglings and defend against a counter attack: that limits him. If you invest in mutalisks, your opponent can't move out of his bases at all until he can win a base trade by defending the mutas while also being strong enough to crush your whole army combined due to your mobility advantage. This limits your opponent. Why is teching a little earlier and taking a third a little later thought of so heinously? A 6:00 third is still quick. Remember, stephano designed this build back before people were doing immortal/sentry pushes. Immortal/sentry was designed to kill a gasless 3rd, so if you're so concerned about the push, don't do a gasless third. I feel fairly certain that the Immortal Sentry build existed quite some time before Stephano's mass roaches became popular. It was originally made to kill Zerg before they could get a decent number of Infestors or Mutas I think and it hits at a pretty scary fast timing. Doing drops with Roaches can work in theory I dunno, I've tried using Bane drops before and it's been difficult to get a large enough ground army plus banelings and overlord speed and drop tech in time to defend properly. If Zerg have to blindly change up their openings due to the metagame that's fine but I'd be curious to know exactly what build Zerg can utilize which will effectively crush an Immortal/Sentry all-in because I still don't know what that build that actually is. | ||
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Sc2Null
United States3754 Posts
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Hall0wed
United States8486 Posts
On November 21 2012 15:50 Tsubbi wrote: So after protoss secured 3 of the top 4 spots in blizzard tournament we get a post that basically says: "hey guys, winrates are eben but almost every protoss unit wont be effected by fungal, have a nice day" how can they even remotely think that this is a small change? also why wouldnt they compensate for it if they see equal winrates? like removing hydra upgrade or making it scale better with attack upgrades.. the raven change is a good idea though You're going to need a MUCH Better argument than using the results of ONE tournament, a tournament where the 3 best players BY FAR happened to be Protoss so of course they got top 3. I fail to see how the most skilled players at an event placing the highest shows anything about balance. | ||
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Astro-Penguin
554 Posts
On November 21 2012 15:50 Tsubbi wrote: So after protoss secured 3 of the top 4 spots in blizzard tournament we get a post that basically says: "hey guys, winrates are eben but almost every protoss unit wont be effected by fungal, have a nice day" how can they even remotely think that this is a small change? also why wouldnt they compensate for it if they see equal winrates? like removing hydra upgrade or making it scale better with attack upgrades.. the raven change is a good idea though People like you are the reason why Blizzard should never listen to any feedback given by the community (Although Blizzards ideas are arguably just as stupid), if you are to stupid to see why the results of the blizzard tournament was the way it was then I'll spell it out for you so maybe you can comprehend it. A) Immortal Sentry is a good way to beat a Zerg you know you are better then. B) Koreans > Foreigners, If your going to try and tell me that Suppy is anywhere near the level of Parting then I think I won't even bother to reply. There are many other cases of this where the Protoss opponent is simply just way way better than the Zerg representation. | ||
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