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On November 21 2012 15:59 FakeDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 15:58 Astro-Penguin wrote:On November 21 2012 15:54 Tsubbi wrote:On November 21 2012 15:53 Hall0wed wrote:On November 21 2012 15:50 Tsubbi wrote:
So after protoss secured 3 of the top 4 spots in blizzard tournament we get a post that basically says:
"hey guys, winrates are eben but almost every protoss unit wont be effected by fungal, have a nice day"
how can they even remotely think that this is a small change? also why wouldnt they compensate for it if they see equal winrates? like removing hydra upgrade or making it scale better with attack upgrades..
the raven change is a good idea though You're going to need a MUCH Better argument than using the results of ONE tournament, a tournament where the 3 best players BY FAR happened to be Protoss so of course they got top 3. I fail to see how the most skilled players at an event placing the highest shows anything about balance. well those players dominated the qualifiers as well, top8 in korea had 7 protoss Go look at the games and find me a match where Protoss wins past 15 minutes, Protoss was simply abusing Immortal Sentry for the most part. (Stopping this push has been largely figured out at this point)Terran and Protoss are occasionally doing well in tournaments, the recurring theme here is that Zerg almost winning everything and getting consistent finishes no matter what player pool. Since when has this push been figured out? It is like the new 1/1/1.
Honestly I would love to see an Immortal/Sentry nerf, maybe then Blizzard would take action after seeing the PvZ winrates skew down to unacceptable levels. Seeing as how Blizzard is unable to comprehend anything beyond win percentages it's probably the best course of action for the longevity of the game.
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On November 21 2012 16:03 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 16:00 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On November 21 2012 15:59 FakeDeath wrote:On November 21 2012 15:58 Astro-Penguin wrote:On November 21 2012 15:54 Tsubbi wrote:On November 21 2012 15:53 Hall0wed wrote:On November 21 2012 15:50 Tsubbi wrote:
So after protoss secured 3 of the top 4 spots in blizzard tournament we get a post that basically says:
"hey guys, winrates are eben but almost every protoss unit wont be effected by fungal, have a nice day"
how can they even remotely think that this is a small change? also why wouldnt they compensate for it if they see equal winrates? like removing hydra upgrade or making it scale better with attack upgrades..
the raven change is a good idea though You're going to need a MUCH Better argument than using the results of ONE tournament, a tournament where the 3 best players BY FAR happened to be Protoss so of course they got top 3. I fail to see how the most skilled players at an event placing the highest shows anything about balance. well those players dominated the qualifiers as well, top8 in korea had 7 protoss Go look at the games and find me a match where Protoss wins past 15 minutes, Protoss was simply abusing Immortal Sentry for the most part. (Stopping this push has been largely figured out at this point)Terran and Protoss are occasionally doing well in tournaments, the recurring theme here is that Zerg almost winning everything and getting consistent finishes no matter what player pool. Since when has this push been figured out? It is like the new 1/1/1. Parting lost one game with it (because of poor sentry control IMO) so everything thinks it's done. He's lost more than one, Suppy beat him when he did it, he lost to Sniper in GSL with it, and he's the best in the world at it. Frankly, I think if he'd had better zerg opponents in the tournament he'd have lost. TLO has won a number of games against the immortal/sentry all-in using his fairly unique strategy. I wouldn't say it's figured out yet, but it's getting there quickly.
Exactly it's getting figured out pretty quickly and eventually it will be stoppable in a far easier fashion than right now. 1-1-1 was experiencing no growth at all in figuring it out and we were seeing "everyone" have success with it and not just 1-2 incredibly good protosses.
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On November 21 2012 16:03 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 16:00 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On November 21 2012 15:59 FakeDeath wrote:On November 21 2012 15:58 Astro-Penguin wrote:On November 21 2012 15:54 Tsubbi wrote:On November 21 2012 15:53 Hall0wed wrote:On November 21 2012 15:50 Tsubbi wrote:
So after protoss secured 3 of the top 4 spots in blizzard tournament we get a post that basically says:
"hey guys, winrates are eben but almost every protoss unit wont be effected by fungal, have a nice day"
how can they even remotely think that this is a small change? also why wouldnt they compensate for it if they see equal winrates? like removing hydra upgrade or making it scale better with attack upgrades..
the raven change is a good idea though You're going to need a MUCH Better argument than using the results of ONE tournament, a tournament where the 3 best players BY FAR happened to be Protoss so of course they got top 3. I fail to see how the most skilled players at an event placing the highest shows anything about balance. well those players dominated the qualifiers as well, top8 in korea had 7 protoss Go look at the games and find me a match where Protoss wins past 15 minutes, Protoss was simply abusing Immortal Sentry for the most part. (Stopping this push has been largely figured out at this point)Terran and Protoss are occasionally doing well in tournaments, the recurring theme here is that Zerg almost winning everything and getting consistent finishes no matter what player pool. Since when has this push been figured out? It is like the new 1/1/1. Parting lost one game with it (because of poor sentry control IMO) so everything thinks it's done. He's lost more than one, Suppy beat him when he did it, he lost to Sniper in GSL with it, and he's the best in the world at it. Frankly, I think if he'd had better zerg opponents in the tournament he'd have lost. TLO has won a number of games against the immortal/sentry all-in using his fairly unique strategy. I wouldn't say it's figured out yet, but it's getting there quickly.
The game I saw was in GSL, could've been vs Sniper. It didn't seem like the Zerg did anything special to defeat it, seemed more like a mistake by Parting (you're not going to hit it perfectly every time).
TLO's playing Korean GM's now right? Love him, and I'll be excited if he figures it out. I worry though that his success might be because of his novel counter which, if you had experience against it, could itself be countered.
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On November 21 2012 16:08 Astro-Penguin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 15:59 FakeDeath wrote:On November 21 2012 15:58 Astro-Penguin wrote:On November 21 2012 15:54 Tsubbi wrote:On November 21 2012 15:53 Hall0wed wrote:On November 21 2012 15:50 Tsubbi wrote:
So after protoss secured 3 of the top 4 spots in blizzard tournament we get a post that basically says:
"hey guys, winrates are eben but almost every protoss unit wont be effected by fungal, have a nice day"
how can they even remotely think that this is a small change? also why wouldnt they compensate for it if they see equal winrates? like removing hydra upgrade or making it scale better with attack upgrades..
the raven change is a good idea though You're going to need a MUCH Better argument than using the results of ONE tournament, a tournament where the 3 best players BY FAR happened to be Protoss so of course they got top 3. I fail to see how the most skilled players at an event placing the highest shows anything about balance. well those players dominated the qualifiers as well, top8 in korea had 7 protoss Go look at the games and find me a match where Protoss wins past 15 minutes, Protoss was simply abusing Immortal Sentry for the most part. (Stopping this push has been largely figured out at this point)Terran and Protoss are occasionally doing well in tournaments, the recurring theme here is that Zerg almost winning everything and getting consistent finishes no matter what player pool. Since when has this push been figured out? It is like the new 1/1/1. Honestly I would love to see an Immortal/Sentry nerf, maybe then Blizzard would take action after seeing the PvZ winrates skew down to unacceptable levels. Seeing as how Blizzard is unable to comprehend anything beyond win percentages it's probably the best course of action for the longevity of the game.
They can't nerfed the Immortal/Sentry since they are crucial for P early-game wise for defense.
They should just redesign the Infestor and Sentry and Mothership since these 3 are the core problems of PvZ.
This would fucked up PvT but they must try to experiment it out.
Blizz can't make the hard decision and just take the easy way out.
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And as expected, all the people not agreeing with the infestor nerfs are Zergs. What a coincidence!
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On November 21 2012 12:13 Jermstuddog wrote:
Hate it.
Hate it hate it hate it hate it hate it hate it hate it.
Everything that has been wrong with Blizzards balance philosophy rolled up into one megapatch of retardation.
My interest in playing this broken and boring game has been waning for the past month or so, I think this is the nail in the coffin.
Really makes me sad because SC2 could and should be such a great game, but Blizz seems to have no fucking clue what to do with their game.
It's... not a patch...
And please tell me, how is making Fungal a projectile bad? Leaving it the way it is certainly isn't any better, and who said Blizz won't go farther?
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On November 21 2012 16:15 Psychobabas wrote:
And as expected, all the people not agreeing with the infestor nerfs are Zergs. What a coincidence!
You should never want your race nerfed makes you learn new things and makes the game harder.
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Warp Prism shouldn't be Psionic, or at least count towards being immune from fungal. Sentries I'm not too sure yet.
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I think the fungal change might be too much here, but i see some possible great gameplay possibilitys of this change though, feedback drops with the HT's during battle and such. I really don't know how i feel about it, would proberly have rather seen a change to missile attack for fungal / and or just slowing alot instead of pinning effect.
As for the Raven change i like it alot, still not 100% sure this will make the ravens viable - but it will give it more utility early game if you just make a few. And make it easier and cheaper to switch to mass ravens lavegame against a Broodlord army.
Would still like to see some changes to the ghost snipe, to make it more viable again (combining it with the fungal immunity would be way OP though).
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On November 21 2012 16:08 Astro-Penguin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 15:59 FakeDeath wrote:On November 21 2012 15:58 Astro-Penguin wrote:On November 21 2012 15:54 Tsubbi wrote:On November 21 2012 15:53 Hall0wed wrote:On November 21 2012 15:50 Tsubbi wrote:
So after protoss secured 3 of the top 4 spots in blizzard tournament we get a post that basically says:
"hey guys, winrates are eben but almost every protoss unit wont be effected by fungal, have a nice day"
how can they even remotely think that this is a small change? also why wouldnt they compensate for it if they see equal winrates? like removing hydra upgrade or making it scale better with attack upgrades..
the raven change is a good idea though You're going to need a MUCH Better argument than using the results of ONE tournament, a tournament where the 3 best players BY FAR happened to be Protoss so of course they got top 3. I fail to see how the most skilled players at an event placing the highest shows anything about balance. well those players dominated the qualifiers as well, top8 in korea had 7 protoss Go look at the games and find me a match where Protoss wins past 15 minutes, Protoss was simply abusing Immortal Sentry for the most part. (Stopping this push has been largely figured out at this point)Terran and Protoss are occasionally doing well in tournaments, the recurring theme here is that Zerg almost winning everything and getting consistent finishes no matter what player pool. Since when has this push been figured out? It is like the new 1/1/1. Honestly I would love to see an Immortal/Sentry nerf, maybe then Blizzard would take action after seeing the PvZ winrates skew down to unacceptable levels. Seeing as how Blizzard is unable to comprehend anything beyond win percentages it's probably the best course of action for the longevity of the game.
I can't see the reason why you cry about immortal/sentry tbh. This GSL season most Protoss couldn't pull off that build except Parting. And Parting lost with that build multiple times as well. That build is easily countered by a good zerg. Just because Sen sucks against Parting doesn't mean there is anything that bad with the build. Why don't you look at late game PvZ and tell me if Protoss ever win vs mass BL/infesotr/Corruptor?
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Not enough, fungal needs to be removed entirely, or the lockdown effect removed. Damage OR lockdown, not both.
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Time to open raven again - yeeeea!
- The build gumiho did in gsl, 1rax fe , into 2 ports - gonna be siick ;D cant wait
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On November 21 2012 16:19 tuho12345 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 16:08 Astro-Penguin wrote:On November 21 2012 15:59 FakeDeath wrote:On November 21 2012 15:58 Astro-Penguin wrote:On November 21 2012 15:54 Tsubbi wrote:On November 21 2012 15:53 Hall0wed wrote:On November 21 2012 15:50 Tsubbi wrote:
So after protoss secured 3 of the top 4 spots in blizzard tournament we get a post that basically says:
"hey guys, winrates are eben but almost every protoss unit wont be effected by fungal, have a nice day"
how can they even remotely think that this is a small change? also why wouldnt they compensate for it if they see equal winrates? like removing hydra upgrade or making it scale better with attack upgrades..
the raven change is a good idea though You're going to need a MUCH Better argument than using the results of ONE tournament, a tournament where the 3 best players BY FAR happened to be Protoss so of course they got top 3. I fail to see how the most skilled players at an event placing the highest shows anything about balance. well those players dominated the qualifiers as well, top8 in korea had 7 protoss Go look at the games and find me a match where Protoss wins past 15 minutes, Protoss was simply abusing Immortal Sentry for the most part. (Stopping this push has been largely figured out at this point)Terran and Protoss are occasionally doing well in tournaments, the recurring theme here is that Zerg almost winning everything and getting consistent finishes no matter what player pool. Since when has this push been figured out? It is like the new 1/1/1. Honestly I would love to see an Immortal/Sentry nerf, maybe then Blizzard would take action after seeing the PvZ winrates skew down to unacceptable levels. Seeing as how Blizzard is unable to comprehend anything beyond win percentages it's probably the best course of action for the longevity of the game. I can't see the reason why you cry about immortal/sentry tbh. This GSL season most Protoss couldn't pull off that build except Parting. And Parting lost with that build multiple times as well. That build is easily countered by a good zerg. Just because Sen sucks against Parting doesn't mean there is anything that bad with the build. Why don't you look at late game PvZ and tell me if Protoss ever win vs mass BL/infesotr/Corruptor?
Oh trust me I'm a Protoss player I'm of the belief that Immortal Sentry isn't overpowered, however I think right now its the only way to beat a Zerg player of the same skill level as you. A nerf would simply force Blizzard to wake up and realize that theres a huge problem with Zerg right now, not only versus Protoss but also Terran.
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On November 21 2012 16:17 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 16:15 Psychobabas wrote:
And as expected, all the people not agreeing with the infestor nerfs are Zergs. What a coincidence! You should never want your race nerfed makes you learn new things and makes the game harder.
It's funny because through out the course of SC2 Zerg has always whined no matter what, both Protoss and Terran have admitted when things have been blatantly overpowered. A part of me really does believe that the majority of Zerg players think they are just actually more skilled than their Terran and Protoss counterparts on a consistent ratio (Funny how most Zergs that just recently experience success struggle in ZvZ.)
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On November 21 2012 16:08 Astro-Penguin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 15:59 FakeDeath wrote:On November 21 2012 15:58 Astro-Penguin wrote:On November 21 2012 15:54 Tsubbi wrote:On November 21 2012 15:53 Hall0wed wrote:On November 21 2012 15:50 Tsubbi wrote:
So after protoss secured 3 of the top 4 spots in blizzard tournament we get a post that basically says:
"hey guys, winrates are eben but almost every protoss unit wont be effected by fungal, have a nice day"
how can they even remotely think that this is a small change? also why wouldnt they compensate for it if they see equal winrates? like removing hydra upgrade or making it scale better with attack upgrades..
the raven change is a good idea though You're going to need a MUCH Better argument than using the results of ONE tournament, a tournament where the 3 best players BY FAR happened to be Protoss so of course they got top 3. I fail to see how the most skilled players at an event placing the highest shows anything about balance. well those players dominated the qualifiers as well, top8 in korea had 7 protoss Go look at the games and find me a match where Protoss wins past 15 minutes, Protoss was simply abusing Immortal Sentry for the most part. (Stopping this push has been largely figured out at this point)Terran and Protoss are occasionally doing well in tournaments, the recurring theme here is that Zerg almost winning everything and getting consistent finishes no matter what player pool. Since when has this push been figured out? It is like the new 1/1/1. Honestly I would love to see an Immortal/Sentry nerf, maybe then Blizzard would take action after seeing the PvZ winrates skew down to unacceptable levels. Seeing as how Blizzard is unable to comprehend anything beyond win percentages it's probably the best course of action for the longevity of the game.
I'm game with that. Lets get rid of Forcefield - it would force a complete redesign of the game, and that might actually be a good thing.
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Make the Raven psionic, problem solved.
As for Sentry/WP, remove that attribute should be inevitable I guess, even though I think that a buff to hydras maybe worth considering.
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On November 21 2012 16:13 FakeDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 16:08 Astro-Penguin wrote:On November 21 2012 15:59 FakeDeath wrote:On November 21 2012 15:58 Astro-Penguin wrote:On November 21 2012 15:54 Tsubbi wrote:On November 21 2012 15:53 Hall0wed wrote:On November 21 2012 15:50 Tsubbi wrote:
So after protoss secured 3 of the top 4 spots in blizzard tournament we get a post that basically says:
"hey guys, winrates are eben but almost every protoss unit wont be effected by fungal, have a nice day"
how can they even remotely think that this is a small change? also why wouldnt they compensate for it if they see equal winrates? like removing hydra upgrade or making it scale better with attack upgrades..
the raven change is a good idea though You're going to need a MUCH Better argument than using the results of ONE tournament, a tournament where the 3 best players BY FAR happened to be Protoss so of course they got top 3. I fail to see how the most skilled players at an event placing the highest shows anything about balance. well those players dominated the qualifiers as well, top8 in korea had 7 protoss Go look at the games and find me a match where Protoss wins past 15 minutes, Protoss was simply abusing Immortal Sentry for the most part. (Stopping this push has been largely figured out at this point)Terran and Protoss are occasionally doing well in tournaments, the recurring theme here is that Zerg almost winning everything and getting consistent finishes no matter what player pool. Since when has this push been figured out? It is like the new 1/1/1. Honestly I would love to see an Immortal/Sentry nerf, maybe then Blizzard would take action after seeing the PvZ winrates skew down to unacceptable levels. Seeing as how Blizzard is unable to comprehend anything beyond win percentages it's probably the best course of action for the longevity of the game. They can't nerfed the Immortal/Sentry since they are crucial for P early-game wise for defense. They should just redesign the Infestor and Sentry and Mothership since these 3 are the core problems of PvZ. This would fucked up PvT but they must try to experiment it out. Blizz can't make the hard decision and just take the easy way out.
I agree entirely man on every point you've made.
A hero unit has no place in a game like SC2, nor do spells like Fungal which almost entirely prohibit micro (FF to a lesser degree as well).
Infestor seems to be just a huge band aid to make Zerg viable and sadly enough it's surpassed doing just that by a great margin. The Infestor right now pretty much a solution to anything Protoss or Terran can throw at a Zerg.
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On November 21 2012 16:31 Astro-Penguin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 16:13 FakeDeath wrote:On November 21 2012 16:08 Astro-Penguin wrote:On November 21 2012 15:59 FakeDeath wrote:On November 21 2012 15:58 Astro-Penguin wrote:On November 21 2012 15:54 Tsubbi wrote:On November 21 2012 15:53 Hall0wed wrote:On November 21 2012 15:50 Tsubbi wrote:
So after protoss secured 3 of the top 4 spots in blizzard tournament we get a post that basically says:
"hey guys, winrates are eben but almost every protoss unit wont be effected by fungal, have a nice day"
how can they even remotely think that this is a small change? also why wouldnt they compensate for it if they see equal winrates? like removing hydra upgrade or making it scale better with attack upgrades..
the raven change is a good idea though You're going to need a MUCH Better argument than using the results of ONE tournament, a tournament where the 3 best players BY FAR happened to be Protoss so of course they got top 3. I fail to see how the most skilled players at an event placing the highest shows anything about balance. well those players dominated the qualifiers as well, top8 in korea had 7 protoss Go look at the games and find me a match where Protoss wins past 15 minutes, Protoss was simply abusing Immortal Sentry for the most part. (Stopping this push has been largely figured out at this point)Terran and Protoss are occasionally doing well in tournaments, the recurring theme here is that Zerg almost winning everything and getting consistent finishes no matter what player pool. Since when has this push been figured out? It is like the new 1/1/1. Honestly I would love to see an Immortal/Sentry nerf, maybe then Blizzard would take action after seeing the PvZ winrates skew down to unacceptable levels. Seeing as how Blizzard is unable to comprehend anything beyond win percentages it's probably the best course of action for the longevity of the game. They can't nerfed the Immortal/Sentry since they are crucial for P early-game wise for defense. They should just redesign the Infestor and Sentry and Mothership since these 3 are the core problems of PvZ. This would fucked up PvT but they must try to experiment it out. Blizz can't make the hard decision and just take the easy way out. I agree entirely man on every point you've made. A hero unit has no place in a game like SC2, nor do spells like Fungal which almost entirely prohibit micro (FF to a lesser degree as well). Infestor seems to be just a huge band aid to make Zerg viable and sadly enough it's surpassed doing just that by a great margin. The Infestor right now pretty much a solution to anything Protoss or Terran can throw at a Zerg.
Please scale back your whining/trolling
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I could see fungal not affecting psionic units for the most part, but sentries? Come on Blizzard.
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On November 21 2012 16:32 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 16:31 Astro-Penguin wrote:On November 21 2012 16:13 FakeDeath wrote:On November 21 2012 16:08 Astro-Penguin wrote:On November 21 2012 15:59 FakeDeath wrote:On November 21 2012 15:58 Astro-Penguin wrote:On November 21 2012 15:54 Tsubbi wrote:On November 21 2012 15:53 Hall0wed wrote:On November 21 2012 15:50 Tsubbi wrote:
So after protoss secured 3 of the top 4 spots in blizzard tournament we get a post that basically says:
"hey guys, winrates are eben but almost every protoss unit wont be effected by fungal, have a nice day"
how can they even remotely think that this is a small change? also why wouldnt they compensate for it if they see equal winrates? like removing hydra upgrade or making it scale better with attack upgrades..
the raven change is a good idea though You're going to need a MUCH Better argument than using the results of ONE tournament, a tournament where the 3 best players BY FAR happened to be Protoss so of course they got top 3. I fail to see how the most skilled players at an event placing the highest shows anything about balance. well those players dominated the qualifiers as well, top8 in korea had 7 protoss Go look at the games and find me a match where Protoss wins past 15 minutes, Protoss was simply abusing Immortal Sentry for the most part. (Stopping this push has been largely figured out at this point)Terran and Protoss are occasionally doing well in tournaments, the recurring theme here is that Zerg almost winning everything and getting consistent finishes no matter what player pool. Since when has this push been figured out? It is like the new 1/1/1. Honestly I would love to see an Immortal/Sentry nerf, maybe then Blizzard would take action after seeing the PvZ winrates skew down to unacceptable levels. Seeing as how Blizzard is unable to comprehend anything beyond win percentages it's probably the best course of action for the longevity of the game. They can't nerfed the Immortal/Sentry since they are crucial for P early-game wise for defense. They should just redesign the Infestor and Sentry and Mothership since these 3 are the core problems of PvZ. This would fucked up PvT but they must try to experiment it out. Blizz can't make the hard decision and just take the easy way out. I agree entirely man on every point you've made. A hero unit has no place in a game like SC2, nor do spells like Fungal which almost entirely prohibit micro (FF to a lesser degree as well). Infestor seems to be just a huge band aid to make Zerg viable and sadly enough it's surpassed doing just that by a great margin. The Infestor right now pretty much a solution to anything Protoss or Terran can throw at a Zerg. Please scale back your whining/trolling
Actually, he's got a bit of a point.
What is the CURRENT counter to the Immortal Sentry all in? wInfestors and a well placed fungal. Just give it time, zerg will figure out a rush build to get 1 or 2 wInfestors out to fungal the sentries. Then the zerglings can clean up the mess. This will change if the patch goes through as it is right now.
I dont see the current patch going through as it sits though, as it is not the best solution to the infestor and fungal problem.
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