EPTAnd I like the Seeker Missile change, since I always build one Raven in the early game.
Call to Action: Balance Testing (2012/11/20) - Page 17
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
And I like the Seeker Missile change, since I always build one Raven in the early game. | ||
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FakeDeath
Malaysia6060 Posts
On November 21 2012 17:13 tomatriedes wrote: Rubbish. Plenty of top Korean players (Creator, MC, Hero etc.) have lost trying to do it. An all-in that only one player has been able to pull of consistently is a far cry from 1-1-1. Also Parting didn't use it once against Hyun in six fight club games. If it were auto-win why the hell would he not even try it? I bet you a player of Hyun's caliber has it figured out already, which is why Parting didn't try it. It looked bad when Sen lost to it three times in WSC for sure, but you have to remember even though Sen is good, he's not code S level. Protoss have been using it more out of desperation than anything, because late game PvZ is so hard to win now. Creator doesn't do the Immortal/Sentry regularly. Creator strongest aspect in PvZ is his 3-base timings and he is probably the best at it along with By.Rain. HerO doesn't all-in as much as he prefers to play for the late-game( that's why he has been losing since zerg is stronger in the late-game composition and zergs gotten better in defending WP harass). MC is having a minor slump and we have not been seeing much of him lately other than his Code A match against Brave where he played pretty mediocre. During the 1/1/1 era, remember who was the strongest at it? It was Puma. No one pulls it off better than Puma during that period. He even teach Ryung and MMA how to 1/1/1 during the EG-SlayerS partnership. Parting is the best at Immortal pushes because he practiced them like crazy( stated that he grinded out 70 games just playing Immortal pushes). Of course he is going to have the best execution of all the Tosses. His build is also the fastest to hit.Hits around the 8.50-9.00 marks. The fastest Immortal push ever. Creator failed his Immortal push against Hyun because he botched his sentry control and his immortal push was so slow. Hits around 10.00 mark. As for Parting vs Hyun, he never showed his WonWonWon so i got no comment on that. What you are saying that Hyun can stop Parting WonWonWon is pure speculation unless they played it out. | ||
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bgx
Poland6595 Posts
But fungal not working vs sentry is really big of a deal. | ||
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TAMinator
Australia2706 Posts
I think the fungal change is nice, makes it very hard to make them viable against ghost/HT. I foresee Zerg players having to utilize more infested terran forcefields, so to speak. | ||
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NEEDZMOAR
Sweden1277 Posts
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Talack
Canada2742 Posts
On November 21 2012 17:42 TAMinator wrote: Do Ravens spawn with enough energy for hunter seeker missile straight away? If so, that'd be way too strong. I think the fungal change is nice, makes it very hard to make them viable against ghost/HT. I foresee Zerg players having to utilize more infested terran forcefields, so to speak. I think it's something like 4-5 minutes before you can use seeker missle once you make a raven. Ravens don't spawn with 125 energy. | ||
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Discarder
Philippines411 Posts
On November 21 2012 17:28 Grend wrote: Imo: Psionic units should still take damage/be revealed, it should only negate the movement impairment. Also in my humble opinion Warp Prisms should not be psionic. This psionic resistance against fungal is actually a very brilliant idea! Protoss will find the incentive to invest gas in various psionic units like DTs to pick off infestors. This actually gives more diversity for the game rather than toss spending all the gas for colossus and stalkers and their respective upgrades. I think blizzard should really go with this. But i changed my stance on the projectile fungal growth. I think that may be too much. I'm sorry if this sounds rude, but may I ask zerg players in this thread if you really use your infestors to defend the against warp prisms or you just want to whine about something in balance? Because I think there are plenty more ways to deal with the warp prism harass besides fungal growth. Personally, I prefer my infestors in the front army rather than having them in my bases because its much easier to have a small army group of lings and corruptors to counter the warp harass and have them back in time for the frontal assault. I also like to have more static defenses in my crucial bases so I think it hardly matters.. However, the resistance of sentry against fungal may be questionable because of any 3 base timing attack with immortal sentry can be impossible to beat without good fungals. We shall see. Anyone masters players out there who already tested this? | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
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bgx
Poland6595 Posts
The problem with fungal on mechanical-starcraft level was always this: it was spell that you could cast without preparation kinda like panic-forcefield and still be incredibly efficient it required no proper preparation just relatively good aim and reflex. A zerg cought of position could still more or less cast it okayish etc. Also the inevitability of the spell (just like forcefield),it's instant effect was a problem. Fungal projectile with nice trimming could really benefit more agressive actions vs infestor deathball. | ||
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Discarder
Philippines411 Posts
On November 21 2012 17:49 Tobberoth wrote: The fungal change is terrible. Not only does it make sentries even more OP, it doesn't help with the actual problems of fungal. Fungal can STILL not be microed against, so it's still boring in the situations where it's still allowed (vs marines etc). sentries more OP, you may be correct possibly... but if fungal is to be a projectile, a player CAN definitely micro against it. I | ||
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Talack
Canada2742 Posts
On November 21 2012 17:53 bgx wrote: Eh i actually prefer fungal as projectile idea, and 10 other nerfs but not for sentry being immune to fungal, we dont need stronger spellcasters on any sides. Forcefield is the second most hated spell and unit which casts that being immune to fungal will just make it even stronger in many metagame cases. The problem with fungal on mechanical-starcraft level was always this: it was spell that you could cast without preparation kinda like panic-forcefield and still be incredibly efficient it required no proper preparation just relatively good aim and reflex. A zerg cought of position could still more or less cast it okayish etc. Also the inevitibility of the spell (just like forcefield),it's instant effect was a problem. Fungal projectile with nice trimming could really benefit more agressive actions vs infestor deathball. Sentries become weaker as the game progresses. Infestors are insanely strong from the moment you make them, the more you have the stronger they are by far and they just keep on getting stronger with the better units you add in the game. And projectile on fungal isn't going to do much other than make it that when you land that fungal, you keep them in place forever just like now. The game needs a diminishing return on fungal so that you have to use them strategically instead of "herp derp spamming now" | ||
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Targe
United Kingdom14103 Posts
New seeker missile change looks sick, it's always such a risky effort to go all the way to seeker missile. | ||
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BoggieMan
520 Posts
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kamicom
United States180 Posts
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HolydaKing
21253 Posts
On November 21 2012 11:21 Wafflelisk wrote: Infestors themselves are psionic aren't they? Hmmm.. Yes, meaning ZvZ will probably be infestor only. :D Or at least more. | ||
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bgx
Poland6595 Posts
On November 21 2012 17:56 Talack wrote: Sentries become weaker as the game progresses. Infestors are insanely strong from the moment you make them, the more you have the stronger they are by far and they just keep on getting stronger with the better units you add in the game. And projectile on fungal isn't going to do much other than make it that when you land that fungal, you keep them in place forever just like now. The game needs a diminishing return on fungal so that you have to use them strategically instead of "herp derp spamming now" You make your point simplier but by doing that you forego the most important transition into metagame = mid-game. In midgame you cannot afford to miss more than 1 or 2 fungals vs competent player who goes toe-to-toe resource wise. If leak would be discovered in zerg timings, expect any race vs zerg to abuse it. If standard infestor timings becomes doubtful by a mere 10% because of fungal being dodge-able, it will make every race vs zerg at that point in time 10% stronger vs fungal oriented play or at least 10% more ballsy to make an agressive move. It probably does not shaken anyone's ground on mere diamond/master level but its big in proplay. There is no simple answer, sc2 has smart-casting which makes banking energy a very simple yet effective strategy (mass ghost pre-nerf, mass infestor, mass templar, mass raven ETC ETC), thats why everything-spellcaster-massable is bound to be ridiculous, the point when? The answer to when? Is by trimming numbers, however by trimming numbers you simply enable or disable the tool being used depending on resource effectivity. However with trimming *mechanic* behind this and maybe contemplating it with *balance* you can possibly change how the game will be played. The problem with smart casting is bad scale-ability, at certain point it stops being a skill but simple machinegun-spellcasting. Note: Diminishing returns sounds ok. | ||
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Millet
Sweden143 Posts
Add psionic to: Ravens Remove Psionic from: Warp Prisms and sentries The problem with ravens in TvZ is that they are easily fungaled, so their spells (mainly SM) can't even launch. This makes the unit gimmicky in TvZ. Being immune, they could actually reach the target. | ||
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zhurai
United States5660 Posts
On November 21 2012 18:14 Millet wrote: If they go on with these changes, I think it would be necessary to: Add psionic to: Ravens Remove Psionic from: Warp Prisms and sentries The problem with ravens in TvZ is that they are easily fungaled, so their spells (mainly SM) can't even launch. This makes the unit gimmicky in TvZ. Being immune, they could actually reach the target. *either add psionic OR increase the range of hsm only if you increase the range, people will start complaining because omgterranbuffedmorewhy stupidity (although the energy cost is extremely high too) | ||
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S_SienZ
1878 Posts
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Gorg
Germany261 Posts
an easy and not too crazy fix to infested terrans would be a 3-5 seconds longer hatch time. | ||
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