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On November 21 2012 18:17 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 18:14 Millet wrote:
If they go on with these changes, I think it would be necessary to:
Add psionic to: Ravens
Remove Psionic from: Warp Prisms and sentries
The problem with ravens in TvZ is that they are easily fungaled, so their spells (mainly SM) can't even launch. This makes the unit gimmicky in TvZ. Being immune, they could actually reach the target. *either add psionic OR increase the range of hsm only if you increase the range, people will start complaining because omgterranbuffedmorewhy stupidity (although the energy cost is extremely high too)
Increased range is ok, from the time i played sc2 it was always annoying when that stupid raven came so close but you still waited until it came close and then OHSHITNOW run! (you had to wait for it come close otherwise it would still have the energy to cast it)
Increased range would probably make HSM more visible but honestly that would be better, they are fast enough and the fact that almost always people will pull whole groups of unit not single unit to which HSM is attached to still makes it worthwile imo. But this is a guess.
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Fungal needs a nerf, but this is the wrong one. Better to balance the spell than just give random units totally arbitrary immunity to it.
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On November 21 2012 11:22 SarcasmMonster wrote:
I wonder how Blizz will explain it lore wise.
How come Fungus doesn't grow on Psionic units?
That would be rather easy: Psionic beings are capable to resist the fungus with their psionic power. Mind over matter.
Why can't they withstand conventional fire power? Because the bullet has too much kinetic energy to be deflected with psionic power.
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How come Blizzard keeps saying win rates are fine, or there's no statistical imbalance, but TL would often cites that zerg has higher win rate in for example ZvT?
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On November 21 2012 18:33 ultratorr wrote:
How come Blizzard keeps saying win rates are fine, or there's no statistical imbalance, but TL would often cites that zerg has higher win rate in for example ZvT?
A: Blizzard are talking out of their ass
B: They are using different data (ladder data)
C: All of the above
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Should be half duration instead of immunity, more logical and balanced.
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On November 21 2012 16:47 Richard Nixon wrote:Warning: this post is long. Very long. If you don't like walls of text, skip this post.Analysis of the Raven buffThe change to HSM has two different effects- it saves time and it saves resources. I'm going to look into just how much benefit a Terran actually gains from this in regards to each element separately. Starting with the resources, take the cost of the research- 150/150. Because the research affects all Ravens you make, if you only make one Raven in a game, you save 150/150 resources per Raven made. If you make 6 Ravens over the course of the game, then you save 25/25 per Raven made. If you make 25 Ravens over the course of the game, you save a mere 7 minerals/gas per Raven. This means that in a late-game situation where a Terran is likely to be floating several thousand gas, they now get a marginally cheaper Raven. The longer the game goes on, and the more Ravens that are made, the more trivial this buff becomes. Clearly this isn't going to make any sort of difference in terms of a late-game economy. The greatest effect this buff has, in terms of resources, is in the mid-game where resources are your biggest constraint. Now, for the buff in regards to saving time, I'm going to make a few assumptions for a pro Terran (this means that stupid mistakes, such as forgetting upgrades, are not made). The first is that the Corvid Reactor upgrade is researched before the first Raven is built, and that the production of the first Raven is timed so that the first Raven pops immediately following completion of Corvid Reactor. Lastly, assume that the research of HSM (in terms of time) only provides a constraint to the first Raven(s). Keep in mind that, in terms of time, HSM has two requirements in order to be used- the research time of the upgrade and energy (which is generated over time). Also, because we assumed that the Raven has Corvid Reactor and pops with 75 energy, the Raven must wait a total of 89 seconds for the energy to cast HSM (125 energy total - 75 starting energy = 50 energy. 50 energy / 0.5625 energy per second = 89 seconds to gain 50 energy). So now that the assumptions have been made, there are two possible cases- (1) the Terran has only one Starport (and thus upgrade research conflicts), or (2) the Terran has multiple Starports (and research does not conflict). Case 1: The Terran has only one Starport (aka the worst possible case)HSM research requires 110 seconds. A Raven requires 89 seconds to generate the energy required. Because HSM is assumed to be queued immediately after Corvid Reactor, there is a 21 second window where the only constraint is HSM research finishing. Therefore, by not requiring HSM to be researched, HSM can hit the field 21 seconds faster. + Show Spoiler +Just as an aside, the only time it makes sense to NOT research Corvid Reactor is if you are using an all-in timing involving a single Raven. Corvid Reactor has a research time of 110 seconds, and must be queued 50 seconds before the first Raven is queued to take effect. This means that you spend 50 seconds of idle Starport time to get a 25 energy bonus. That 25 energy would take 44 seconds to generate, meaning you spend 150/150 to lose 6 seconds on your push time. In any other case, you should research it. However, if the Terran has multiple Starports making Ravens, HSM can be researched at the same time as Corvid Reactor and the production of the actual Raven. Since Ravens require 60 seconds build time + 89 seconds to gain the energy required, it takes 149 seconds from the moment the Raven is queued before the energy restraint can be met. HSM takes only 110 seconds. Therefore, if Corvid Reactor and HSM can be researched concurrently, the buff to HSM has zero effect on how early HSM can possibly hit the field. Conclusion: Masters+:You save miniscule amounts of resources per Raven in a late-game transition, and HSM will not be ready any faster if you create more than one Starport (read: there is NO benefit). If you wish to make use of this buff, use (1) very few Ravens, as the cost per Raven will significantly cheaper, and (2) only use one Starport to begin Raven production. Otherwise, you will not notice any difference between the test map and normal ladder games. Everyone else:You don't have to worry about getting the upgrade, potentially losing you the game. Other than that, you will not notice any difference whatsoever.
I think it's absolutely amazing that you put all that time, thought and effort into researching HSM rushes AKA losing.
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I really like the Fungal change. Seems like Blizzard finally tries not to overnerv units.
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I think the change is too strong... huge PvZ buff with very little change to TvZ..
The projectile change would have been nicer imo.
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Austria24422 Posts
What if Ravens were psionic?
Btw I looooove the fungal change for PvZ. We'll see how it affects protoss timing attacks though, 3 base could be really strong now without fungal vs sentries.
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On November 21 2012 18:42 Roth wrote:
I really like the Fungal change. Seems like Blizzard finally tries not to overnerv units.
XD
I really wonder what Blizzard was thinking when they decided to make a third of the protoss army immune to fungal instead of going for balancing through number crunching. And it's also quite strange that they decide to give a minor buff to terran after they have had such a hard time fighting zerg and such little representation in WCS while they give a HUGE HUGE HUGE buff to protoss after the race has dominated WCS Finals.
The change is likely to be reverted in its entirety and altered to something remotely reasonable like shorted root time or the projectile change which would be my favorite change with the exception of simply changing the fungal range to 6.
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I don't like the Fungal change. It is not the right way to go. How the hell would you kill a warp prism with speed without fungaling it ? I mean fungal is obviously imba, but this is definitely not the right way to go. make it just not to effect ghosts and HT if you are going to go for this change, but Archon, DT, warp prism, it's too much...
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Now you can do more fancy WP herassment against Zerg but you still can't fight the deathball. I'm not a big fan of this, Seeker Missle change seems good though.
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Dear Dev.Team:
Short feedback:
1) HSM change does nothing for the raven
2) Ghost and HT still can't counter infestors in lategame
3) Zerg should still be able to fungle sentries and warp prisms.
4) The whole "fungal does not affect psionic" is the wrong approach; makes no sense
Plaese consider the changes the community voted for in a thread about nerfing the infestor. There were way better suggestions to find then your current testmap is including:
1) Nerf fungal directly (Slow, not Root!; Air or Ground)
2) Nerf infested marines (energy or scaling with upgrades)
3) If you want to see ravens used more often, put some real effort in!
All the problems are known and open for testing
4) Hurry up!! Broodlord Infestor are killing the Zerg matchups for spectators
Yours sincerely
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On November 21 2012 18:52 Holdinga wrote:
I don't like the Fungal change. It is not the right way to go. How the hell would you kill a warp prism with speed without fungaling it ? I mean fungal is obviously imba, but this is definitely not the right way to go. make it just not to effect ghosts and HT if you are going to go for this change, but Archon, DT, warp prism, it's too much...
Not to mention the immunity of sentries. This change buffs protoss late 2 base to 3 base timings insanely as well as late game fighting AND harssment beyond insanity. It's actually completely ridiculous if you think about it. Zerg will just revert back to mass muta play which seems to be relatively strong vs the soul train anyway.
I don't get how Blizzard doesn't use such a huge nerf for zerg to buff other zerg units such as Hydras and Ultras to do what is long been due. Taking the infestor of its god tier position and widening the zerg arsenal of viable units to make the game much more diverse and interesting.
Oh and by the way with this change we will get a completely new ZvZ metagame. Infestor Queen Ultralisk calling it now!!!
All Units largely immune to fungal now will battle it out with infested terran stand-offs and mass transfused ultra busts.
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The Raven change will probably only change TvT a tiny bit with more with HSM being used a bit more in air battles.
However, for TvZ, when Terran starts massing Ravens (I am Terran myself) I never have any problem affording 150/150. Makes no difference at all. When you start Raven Production you start HSM-upgrade aswell.
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It's an ok change, but then obviously Warp Prisms and Sentries need to not be psionic.
It's pretty obvious that things will not stay this way so why not save some time? It seems pretty shortsighted of them.
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On November 21 2012 15:18 Whitewing wrote:
Serious question for all the zergs out there: why do you feel it is a right to be able to, in ZvP, go zergling into roach into infestor into broodlords as your composition? Protoss can't go directly into archon mothership, we need to do sentry/immortal as a bridge composition to take a third base, and then need to add high templar or colossi in order to defend against infested terran bombs. Terran has to constantly add in new units in their composition, adding in siege tanks to defend against roach busts or die to them if they come, mixing in hellions for map control and zergling defense, they can't just rush straight to their perfect composition off of the strength of one or two units. Why should zerg be able to open with hatch tech units then rush straight to end game composition? There should be a transition there, a bridge of some kind that gets them there. One of the biggest design flaws is that they don't need one, which is why broodlord/infestor is always out way before the equivalent protoss (carrier/archon/mothership/high templar with some stalkers and maybe some colossi) or terran (marine/ghost/battlecruiser/raven/thor) army is. Hell, terran's can't even TRY to get their ultra late game army out most games, let alone figure out the transition, they simply never have the time. You know why we never see BC's or late game sky terran armies? It's not because the units are weak or suck, it's because they can't survive long enough to get them out with the upgrades they need, zerg gets to their end game army too fast and is too dangerous. Protoss rarely gets to make carriers, and only when zerg decides to turtle on his already finished army for 10 minutes.
Zerg goes straight from hatchery tech to ultimate endgame composition because that's the only choice we have. Zerg's combat units are lings, roaches, banes, hydras, mutas, corruptors, infestors, broodlords and ultralisks. Mutas don't beat anything that can shoot up in a straight up fight, and they're not supposed to. They're harassment units. Hydras are just plain awful. And banelings and ultralisks don't really have a role in ZvP. So yes, zerg gets lings and roaches at the start and then goes straight into infestors, corruptors and broodlords. What else are we supposed to do?
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On November 21 2012 19:02 Glorfindel! wrote:
The Raven change will probably only change TvT a tiny bit with more with HSM being used a bit more in air battles.
However, for TvZ, when Terran starts massing Ravens (I am Terran myself) I never have any problem affording 150/150. Makes no difference at all. When you start Raven Production you start HSM-upgrade aswell.
Exactly. The Raven buff does virtually nothing for terran late game vs Zerg.
With the fungal change Blizzard is also really indecisive about what composition they expect to go in late game TvZ. The fungal change is quite a signifcant ghost buff and with a buffed ghost people will have no incentive at all to go for a ravens late game. People won't sure as hell use both as the effort to micro and control a mixed army including ghosts and ravens is quite insane.
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Austria24422 Posts
On November 21 2012 19:07 Twilight Sparkle wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 15:18 Whitewing wrote:
Serious question for all the zergs out there: why do you feel it is a right to be able to, in ZvP, go zergling into roach into infestor into broodlords as your composition? Protoss can't go directly into archon mothership, we need to do sentry/immortal as a bridge composition to take a third base, and then need to add high templar or colossi in order to defend against infested terran bombs. Terran has to constantly add in new units in their composition, adding in siege tanks to defend against roach busts or die to them if they come, mixing in hellions for map control and zergling defense, they can't just rush straight to their perfect composition off of the strength of one or two units. Why should zerg be able to open with hatch tech units then rush straight to end game composition? There should be a transition there, a bridge of some kind that gets them there. One of the biggest design flaws is that they don't need one, which is why broodlord/infestor is always out way before the equivalent protoss (carrier/archon/mothership/high templar with some stalkers and maybe some colossi) or terran (marine/ghost/battlecruiser/raven/thor) army is. Hell, terran's can't even TRY to get their ultra late game army out most games, let alone figure out the transition, they simply never have the time. You know why we never see BC's or late game sky terran armies? It's not because the units are weak or suck, it's because they can't survive long enough to get them out with the upgrades they need, zerg gets to their end game army too fast and is too dangerous. Protoss rarely gets to make carriers, and only when zerg decides to turtle on his already finished army for 10 minutes. Zerg goes straight from hatchery tech to ultimate endgame composition because that's the only choice we have. Zerg's combat units are lings, roaches, banes, hydras, mutas, corruptors, infestors, broodlords and ultralisks. Mutas don't beat anything that can shoot up in a straight up fight, and they're not supposed to. They're harassment units. Hydras are just plain awful. And banelings and ultralisks don't really have a role in ZvP. Which leaves lings, roaches, infestors, corruptors and broodlords as zerg's staple army composition. What else are we supposed to do?
I agree, that's why I think a hydra buff along with a drastic infestor change like this would do wonders for zerg matchups.
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EPT
