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On November 21 2012 19:42 Zerg.Zilla wrote:
High Templar,Ghost,Infestor,Queen immune to fungal...im ok with that.
But Sentry,DT,Archon,Warp Prism...that's just dumb...Spire is required to counter a crappy mineral only unit...
and how do u stop sentry immortal all in?
Spire tech, Roaches, Speedlings, Counter-attacks. Fungal because its still going to be imbalanced against Immortal/Zealot/Stalkers.
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I dont like the fungle vs psionic change. Warp prisms harras will be super diffiult to stop now and senties are already a very strong unit and with this it is going to be even more difficult for zerg to deal with an army with many sentries without getting bl. I that the dark templar i no longer effected though. Will make it easier for toss to harras a zerg. Seeker missle change is also really good. I think they should make all invisble units immune to fungle.
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Warp Prism carrying High Templar around will be nice against Infestors. You won't have to worry about losing such a large investment to chain Fungal Growths, and you can protect your delicate Templar from the Zerg army.
I can't tell you how many times I've seen this attempted by pros, but Fungal Growth pretty much immediately shuts it down.
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On November 21 2012 19:17 aksfjh wrote:
Much rather see the Raven buffed with every spell cost being reduced by 25 energy. The fungal change does a LOT less than people are expecting, especially in PvZ. About the only significant change I can think of would be late pushes involving sentries, but I don't remember seeing infestors/fungal playing an integral part in their defense in the first place. Overall, nothing will change for TvX, and a little will change for PvZ.
Major disagree. The fungal change is huge. Absolutely outstandingly huge. Imagine every mid- to late game PvZ fight in the WCS Finals with sentries archons, high templars and the mothership not affected by fungal. This is just an insane change. It's unbelievable and it's even accompanied by a major late game harassment buff as speed prisms will be virtually uncatchable and DTs being much more annoying without the ability fo fungal them.
With this change it is also likely that zealot archon templar will pretty much have a field day against zerg even becoming borderline unstoppable because Templars can now feedback the shit out of every infestor without any hindrance, archons won't become artificial choke points when fungaled and a warp prism with zealot warpins will be much, much stronger.
It is beyond me how you can call such a change "little". The queen buff has shown that even small changes can have a huge effect and this is anything but a small change.
On November 21 2012 19:23 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 19:08 AbideWithMe wrote:On November 21 2012 19:02 Glorfindel! wrote:
The Raven change will probably only change TvT a tiny bit with more with HSM being used a bit more in air battles.
However, for TvZ, when Terran starts massing Ravens (I am Terran myself) I never have any problem affording 150/150. Makes no difference at all. When you start Raven Production you start HSM-upgrade aswell. Exactly. The Raven buff does virtually nothing for terran late game vs Zerg. With the fungal change Blizzard is also really indecisive about what composition they expect to go in late game TvZ. The fungal change is quite a signifcant ghost buff and with a buffed ghost people will have no incentive at all to go for a ravens late game. People won't sure as hell use both as the effort to micro and control a mixed army including ghosts and ravens is quite insane. They still don't have an incentive to go either one. Infestor/broodlord beats out both tech paths handedly. Broodlords overwhelm ghosts and prevent them from getting to the infestors, and the short HSM range makes ravens incredibly vulnerable trying to HSM broodlords, and there's still the problem with corruptors getting in the way.
We haven seen ghosts mixed in terran late game play against zerg to counter mass infestor already and with ghosts being unrootable and even undectable through fungal terran WILL FOR SURE have incentive to mix in ghosts in late game situations as overseers are rather easily killed and emps as well as snipe can seriously fuck up infestor defense againsts vikings. With this change I don't actually see ravens being built in TvZ ever again as ghosts will be so much more helpful.
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On November 21 2012 19:44 ConGee wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 17:49 Discarder wrote:On November 21 2012 17:28 Grend wrote:
Imo: Psionic units should still take damage/be revealed, it should only negate the movement impairment. Also in my humble opinion Warp Prisms should not be psionic. This psionic resistance against fungal is actually a very brilliant idea! Protoss will find the incentive to invest gas in various psionic units like DTs to pick off infestors. This actually gives more diversity for the game rather than toss spending all the gas for colossus and stalkers and their respective upgrades. I think blizzard should really go with this. But i changed my stance on the projectile fungal growth. I think that may be too much. I'm sorry if this sounds rude, but may I ask zerg players in this thread if you really use your infestors to defend the against warp prisms or you just want to whine about something in balance? Because I think there are plenty more ways to deal with the warp prism harass besides fungal growth. Personally, I prefer my infestors in the front army rather than having them in my bases because its much easier to have a small army group of lings and corruptors to counter the warp harass and have them back in time for the frontal assault. I also like to have more static defenses in my crucial bases so I think it hardly matters.. However, the resistance of sentry against fungal may be questionable because of any 3 base timing attack with immortal sentry can be impossible to beat without good fungals. We shall see. Anyone masters players out there who already tested this? How would you stop a speed warp prism that can fly by a spore after taking only two shots, that's faster than mutas or corruptors, and can easily outmaneuver queens.
Even the upgraded Warp-Prism isn't faster than Mutas... (3,375 to 3,75)
But nevertheless I think a Warp-Prism immune to Fungals is perhaps a bit too much...
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On November 21 2012 19:44 ConGee wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 17:49 Discarder wrote:On November 21 2012 17:28 Grend wrote:
Imo: Psionic units should still take damage/be revealed, it should only negate the movement impairment. Also in my humble opinion Warp Prisms should not be psionic. This psionic resistance against fungal is actually a very brilliant idea! Protoss will find the incentive to invest gas in various psionic units like DTs to pick off infestors. This actually gives more diversity for the game rather than toss spending all the gas for colossus and stalkers and their respective upgrades. I think blizzard should really go with this. But i changed my stance on the projectile fungal growth. I think that may be too much. I'm sorry if this sounds rude, but may I ask zerg players in this thread if you really use your infestors to defend the against warp prisms or you just want to whine about something in balance? Because I think there are plenty more ways to deal with the warp prism harass besides fungal growth. Personally, I prefer my infestors in the front army rather than having them in my bases because its much easier to have a small army group of lings and corruptors to counter the warp harass and have them back in time for the frontal assault. I also like to have more static defenses in my crucial bases so I think it hardly matters.. However, the resistance of sentry against fungal may be questionable because of any 3 base timing attack with immortal sentry can be impossible to beat without good fungals. We shall see. Anyone masters players out there who already tested this? How would you stop a speed warp prism that can fly by a spore after taking only two shots, that's faster than mutas or corruptors, and can easily outmaneuver queens.
By doing what every zerg already does - make more static defense. It's not that hard. The other two races already have to deal with speed prisms lategame, why should zerg just fungal them and be done with it? Not like protoss or terran use anything else than static defense against speed prisms lategame.
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On November 21 2012 19:47 Arco wrote:
Warp Prism carrying High Templar around will be nice against Infestors. You won't have to worry about losing such a large investment to chain Fungal Growths, and you can protect your delicate Templar from the Zerg army.
I can't tell you how many times I've seen this attempted by pros, but Fungal Growth pretty much immediately shuts it down.
You will instantly lose any HT you drop out of a warp prism to broodlings/roaches/speedlings in a split second. Not really seeing this as a realistic response to Infestors late-game.. MAYBE in the mid-game.. But Protoss doesn't typically have HT out in the mid-game quite yet.
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On November 21 2012 19:44 Insoleet wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 19:31 Sissors wrote:On November 21 2012 19:23 HwangjaeTerran wrote:
I feel like they only paired the fungal nerf with the nonexistent raven buff so that they could pull both of them when zergs start losing infestors to dts and banshees. Why would zerg lose infestors to banshees? Believe me I tried banshees often enough against them, one moment you dont split them and immediatly they all die. Thats why I would rather see banshee being immune to fungal than ghosts, but that isnt happening. You must have terrible control. A master terran from my team is playing skymech ( hellion tank/thor banshee + planetaries and inbase OC), and has like 80% winrate against zerg. He just doesn't lose his banshees all the day along. And if the zerg tries to fungle them, the tanks destroy the infestors. Just a matter of positioning.
Yes of course it is because I am such a horrible player and I should feel bad about myself. That is also probably why all the pros are getting 80% win rate against zerg with terran with using banshees (and then I dont mean hellion banshees, but using banshees against infestors).
Let me give you a small hint: Fungal outranges banshees (alot). There is no way on earth siege tanks would kill the infestors unless they were walking right into a siege tank line anyway. And in that case what exactly are the banshees adding? Banshees simply die horrible against both fungal and ITs.
Maybe you shouldnt make such posts without actually trying it yourself, or at least having some basic knowledge of range in SC2.
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On November 21 2012 19:49 Enzymatic wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 19:47 Arco wrote:
Warp Prism carrying High Templar around will be nice against Infestors. You won't have to worry about losing such a large investment to chain Fungal Growths, and you can protect your delicate Templar from the Zerg army.
I can't tell you how many times I've seen this attempted by pros, but Fungal Growth pretty much immediately shuts it down. You will instantly lose any HT you drop out of a warp prism to broodlings/roaches/speedlings in a split second. Not really seeing this as a realistic response to Infestors late-game.. MAYBE in the mid-game.. But Protoss doesn't typically have HT out in the mid-game quite yet.
Well, actually players like HerO started skipping colossi in favor of templar tech and it's working out pretty well, I do it myself every now and then. The problem was always that it didn't really matter vs BL/infestor. But I clearly see the light now.
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Yes, finally something happening on the balance front.
Even though I do think that the psionic immunity to fungal is redundant and won't solve anything, I'm open to the outcome.
(it might make it harder for the infestor to approach the protoss army and neural the mothership though)
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OMG I will play the whole day. But after GSL 
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Im not quiet sure if they shouldnt be affected at all... maybe prevent the rooting effect
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On November 21 2012 19:49 Enzymatic wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 19:47 Arco wrote:
Warp Prism carrying High Templar around will be nice against Infestors. You won't have to worry about losing such a large investment to chain Fungal Growths, and you can protect your delicate Templar from the Zerg army.
I can't tell you how many times I've seen this attempted by pros, but Fungal Growth pretty much immediately shuts it down. You will instantly lose any HT you drop out of a warp prism to broodlings/roaches/speedlings in a split second. Not really seeing this as a realistic response to Infestors late-game.. MAYBE in the mid-game.. But Protoss doesn't typically have HT out in the mid-game quite yet.
It's quite obvious how angry you are about zerg already but downplaying this absurd nerf to fungal is just kidding yourself. The change won't come this way but as Protoss you should be actually glad if it did because it is enormous.
On November 21 2012 19:53 JustPassingBy wrote:
Yes, finally something happening on the balance front.
Even though I do think that the psionic immunity to fungal is redundant and won't solve anything, I'm open to the outcome.
(it might make it harder for the infestor to approach the protoss army and neural the mothership though)
WON'T CHANGE ANYTHING?????? Are you actually listening to yourself? A third of the protoss units would be immune to a spell that seems absolutely necessary for zerg to stay alive against Protoss before Broodlords on the one hand and massively overpowered in a late game situation with broodlords on the other hand.
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On November 21 2012 19:44 ConGee wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 17:49 Discarder wrote:On November 21 2012 17:28 Grend wrote:
Imo: Psionic units should still take damage/be revealed, it should only negate the movement impairment. Also in my humble opinion Warp Prisms should not be psionic. This psionic resistance against fungal is actually a very brilliant idea! Protoss will find the incentive to invest gas in various psionic units like DTs to pick off infestors. This actually gives more diversity for the game rather than toss spending all the gas for colossus and stalkers and their respective upgrades. I think blizzard should really go with this. But i changed my stance on the projectile fungal growth. I think that may be too much. I'm sorry if this sounds rude, but may I ask zerg players in this thread if you really use your infestors to defend the against warp prisms or you just want to whine about something in balance? Because I think there are plenty more ways to deal with the warp prism harass besides fungal growth. Personally, I prefer my infestors in the front army rather than having them in my bases because its much easier to have a small army group of lings and corruptors to counter the warp harass and have them back in time for the frontal assault. I also like to have more static defenses in my crucial bases so I think it hardly matters.. However, the resistance of sentry against fungal may be questionable because of any 3 base timing attack with immortal sentry can be impossible to beat without good fungals. We shall see. Anyone masters players out there who already tested this? How would you stop a speed warp prism that can fly by a spore after taking only two shots, that's faster than mutas or corruptors, and can easily outmaneuver queens.
Mutas are faster than warp prisms.
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this is awesome. just what i wanted to see.
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
I will test this at once when I get home. I'll be the guy 4gating all the zergs, lolololol
JK.
I'm gonna love my PvZ again I think!
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Globally, at both the pro and non-pro levels, we’re not seeing significant balance issues.
Can we see some stats?
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Silly tosses asking zergs to make mutas just to counter WP in the late game.
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.... they need to make sentry not psionic then..... that immortal sentry all in is gonna be so ahrd to stop again, i finally got a sick way to completly destroy it, fml
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I generally welcome these changes, but as already pointed out, fungal not affecting sentries/warp prisms in addition to high templars/dark templars/mothership/archon is pretty odd and does not target problematic unit compositions or games stages at all. Should be limited to HT/DT/archon/MS imo.
The changes are generally pointing in the right direction, though.
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EPT
