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United States7483 Posts
On November 21 2012 13:02 neoghaleon55 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 13:00 Solarsail wrote:On November 21 2012 12:57 neoghaleon55 wrote:
so what's zerg suppose to do against sentry stalker 2,3 base allins now?
I'm really confused about this change. Infestors shouldn't counter everything. Zerg should find a solution using the many other units they have. Infestor can still act in a support role. I agree it shouldn't counter everything. But there's a timing during 10-15 minutes where zerg has no splash siege option(Tanks/collosi) that can stop sentry pushes. I see this change is being very problematic.
People used to use baneling drops to stop it. Symbol had a ridiculously deep run in the GSL where he got fast drops and did a mass roach drop all over the immortal sentry army in ZvP when the push came to essentially negate the sentries.
Faster roach burrow (have you considered getting burrow and tunneling claws before speed) or drops seems, on paper at least, like it should be effective, because it negates the most essential part of the push (the sentries). The immortals give the push the power it needs, but that's only because the sentries act as a force multiplier. Take the sentries out of the equation on the push dies immediately.
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This Raven change along with the fungal change doesn't really affect the core problem with TvZ right now. All buffing HSM does is essentially give Terrans a version of the vortex, basically another coin flip strategy where if the HSM hits Terrans wins if not well you just lost (even worse since HSM is so slow). Cloaked ghosts will be a little more effective but broodlings will still block the path for effective EMPs.
The problem with TvZ is the mid game, terrans don't have any psionic units at this point, however zerg can trade cost efficiently with mid game terran armies while also having a superior economy which allows them to easily transition to super powerful hive tech armies which Terrans have a difficult time reacting to.
They need to make a fundamental change to the infestor so that it's either A) Fungal/IT is weaker or B) Move it to Hive so it can't be used in the mid-game so easily (and buff Mutalisk/Hydras)
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United States7483 Posts
On November 21 2012 13:14 Albinoswordfish wrote:
This Raven change along with the fungal change doesn't really affect the core problem with TvZ right now. All buffing HSM does is essentially give Terrans a version of the vortex, basically another coin flip strategy where if the HSM hits Terrans wins if not well you just lost (even worse since HSM is so slow). Cloaked ghosts will be a little more effective but broodlings will still block the path for effective EMPs.
The problem with TvZ is the mid game, terrans don't have any psionic units at this point, however zerg can trade cost efficiently with mid game terran armies while also having a superior economy which allows them to easily transition to super powerful hive tech armies which Terrans have a difficult time reacting to.
They need to make a fundamental change to the infestor so that it's either A) Fungal/IT is weaker or B) Move it to Hive so it can't be used in the mid-game so easily (and buff Mutalisk/Hydras)
Do what Gumiho already does, sneak ghosts in from multiple angles, and be proactive in attacking the zerg's infestor count, don't just sit and let it come to you, EMP and snipe infestors all day long. He even does medivac drops with ghosts behind the army and from the sides of the army to get his ghosts into position. The best part is that if you can get the overseers with your vikings or something, he can't fungal your ghosts to uncloak them anymore, they'll stay cloaked.
With fungal not effecting psionic units, ghosts go from an okay response to infestors to a strong response, so long as you're able to micro and position them properly (what terran should be entirely about). I think this is a great change for TvZ to break up infestor broodlord, especially since ling/infestor/ultralisk/baneling is still a potent strategy.
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Love the changes so far. BRING ME MY DEATH UMBRELLA FILLED WITH TINY INVISIBLE MEN WITH KNIVES, YOUR MOSSY GROWTHS CANNOT STOP THEM!
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This is a much more aggressive change than the projectile.
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On November 21 2012 13:16 Whitewing wrote:
Do what Gumiho already does, sneak ghosts in from multiple angles, and be proactive in attacking the zerg's infestor count, don't just sit and let it come to you, EMP and snipe infestors all day long. He even does medivac drops with ghosts behind the army and from the sides of the army to get his ghosts into position.
Sure, sounds like something the average ladder Joe can do every game, eh?
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Waaaaaaaaaait a second.....
No fungal on DTs? big problem with that but am willing to play with it and test it out.
No fungal on Warp prism? Hold the phone.
Warp prisms with speed are faster than every single zerg unit accept zergling, speed roach on creep, and mutalisk.
So, let me get this straight, blizzard wants for the only unit in the zerg army capable of killing a prism to be a mutalisk. hydras can't catch them, queens can't catch them, corruptors can't catch them. and prisms only cost minerals.
..........what?
So they get a pylon that can be put anywhere, limitless harassment possibility, and the only way I can kill it is with mutas or if it actually flies into a bunch of anti air.
I don't understand....
This is an error. Hydras, queens, corruptors, infested terrans... the only way they kill a speed prism is with fungal. Am I supposed to make a spire and 5 mutas every single game in zvp now?
Objection.
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On November 21 2012 13:14 Albinoswordfish wrote:
The problem with TvZ is the mid game, terrans don't have any psionic units at this point, however zerg can trade cost efficiently with mid game terran armies while also having a superior economy which allows them to easily transition to super powerful hive tech armies which Terrans have a difficult time reacting to.
I see this change working out well because ghosts having fungal immunity should make EMP more viable as an anti caster spell. Of course it still has its challenges, such as microing the units into the correct position, EMP radius and infestor size, but this is a great step to making the ghost able to fulfill its function. At some point in the mid game, Terran now has the option to delay 2-3 medivacs or vikings in order to get a ghost academy down and moebius reactor started. The total cost for both the building and the upgrade is 250/150, and the academy itself is relatively quick to build.
edit: also, making the Ghost more viable means we should be seeing more Nukes!
On November 21 2012 13:28 TheDwf wrote:
Very unlikely, Ghosts are still too expensive for midgame.
I'll agree that massing them in the mid game is unlikely, but having 2-3 can create new bio timing pushes pre-hive.
The point isn't that the buff will make Ghosts an extremely effective, overpowered unit like the Infestor currently is. The point is that now we'll have even more options which can create more varied gameplay. I'm excited to see what progamers can do with this unit now! I'm happy that we're possibly going to see some changes to how the match plays out. Two range for queens was enough to change how Terran approaches the early game, let's see what fungal immunity can do to make us approach the mid-late game differently.
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On November 21 2012 13:22 Crushgroove wrote:
Waaaaaaaaaait a second.....
No fungal on DTs? big problem with that but am willing to play with it and test it out.
No fungal on Warp prism? Hold the phone.
Warp prisms with speed are faster than every single zerg unit accept zergling, speed roach on creep, and mutalisk.
So, let me get this straight, blizzard wants for the only unit in the zerg army capable of killing a prism to be a mutalisk. hydras can't catch them, queens can't catch them, corruptors can't catch them. and prisms only cost minerals.
..........what?
So they get a pylon that can be put anywhere, limitless harassment possibility, and the only way I can kill it is with mutas or if it actually flies into a bunch of anti air.
I don't understand....
This is an error. Hydras, queens, corruptors, infested terrans... the only way they kill a speed prism is with fungal. Am I supposed to make a spire and 5 mutas every single game in zvp now?
Objection.
Welcome to lategame TvP difficulties, hope you enjoy your journey.
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On November 21 2012 13:22 Crushgroove wrote:
Warp prisms with speed are faster than every single zerg unit accept zergling, speed roach on creep, and mutalisk.
Warp prisms with speed are faster than every single Terran unit.
Warp prisms with speed are faster than every single Protos unit.
Your turn.
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So i just tested it out, Dts, Archons, and Warp Prisms now can't even be touched by fungal. No damage whatsoever! So, with this patch, ZvT is still broken in zerg favor, while sentry immortal/3 base toss timings got buffed O_O. So all those complains about 2/3 base timings in zvp, prepare for even more 2-3 base timings!
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Yea... warp prism, sentry pushes, dark templar all cant be fungal growthed now 
Funny enough the fungal nerf helps protoss deal with infestor broodlord better since it makes warp prisms that much stronger. DT will come back in style I bet and even farther delayed sentry immortal pushes might show up, this is C C C Crazy!
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On November 21 2012 13:16 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 13:14 Albinoswordfish wrote:
This Raven change along with the fungal change doesn't really affect the core problem with TvZ right now. All buffing HSM does is essentially give Terrans a version of the vortex, basically another coin flip strategy where if the HSM hits Terrans wins if not well you just lost (even worse since HSM is so slow). Cloaked ghosts will be a little more effective but broodlings will still block the path for effective EMPs.
The problem with TvZ is the mid game, terrans don't have any psionic units at this point, however zerg can trade cost efficiently with mid game terran armies while also having a superior economy which allows them to easily transition to super powerful hive tech armies which Terrans have a difficult time reacting to.
They need to make a fundamental change to the infestor so that it's either A) Fungal/IT is weaker or B) Move it to Hive so it can't be used in the mid-game so easily (and buff Mutalisk/Hydras) Do what Gumiho already does, sneak ghosts in from multiple angles, and be proactive in attacking the zerg's infestor count, don't just sit and let it come to you, EMP and snipe infestors all day long. He even does medivac drops with ghosts behind the army and from the sides of the army to get his ghosts into position. The best part is that if you can get the overseers with your vikings or something, he can't fungal your ghosts to uncloak them anymore, they'll stay cloaked. With fungal not effecting psionic units, ghosts go from an okay response to infestors to a strong response, so long as you're able to micro and position them properly (what terran should be entirely about). I think this is a great change for TvZ to break up infestor broodlord, especially since ling/infestor/ultralisk/baneling is still a potent strategy.
Yes I understand that ghosts are now a more viable option with this fungal change, however I think this is going to lead to more turtely games like PvZ. Now the only way terran can get cost efficient trades with zerg is if they turtle to Raven and Ghosts. I don't know maybe people wanna see late-game vs late-game now, for me personally I liked TvZ back in the days where there was a early and mid game.
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Just out of curiosity, what if you changed fungal, so it doesn't effect cloaked units?
This would change, a lot of the economy management for zergs. It would force them build more defensive structures, and overseers, which could really effect the early and mid-game, slightly slowing that big drone push knowing that they'll have to play safer, and have adequete detection, as well as opening up harassment options against infestor builds. In the late-game it offers more micro oppurtunity to protoss and terran.
Terran could really do some good ghost play, and pick off overseers with that large viking force they need to deal with the zerg broodlord army.
Protoss would be able to use good positioning, with the mothership and blink to kill overseers, and protect their cloaked army.
A change like this would also not effect a lot of the other existing meta-game because it a more specific change.
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On November 21 2012 13:22 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 13:16 Whitewing wrote:
Do what Gumiho already does, sneak ghosts in from multiple angles, and be proactive in attacking the zerg's infestor count, don't just sit and let it come to you, EMP and snipe infestors all day long. He even does medivac drops with ghosts behind the army and from the sides of the army to get his ghosts into position. Sure, sounds like something the average ladder Joe can do every game, eh?
I know, you might have to use a whole second control group or third control group to split them up. Or just get cloak and use vikings to focus down overseers, they die quick. And considering snipe is almost the same range as a broodlord, it sounds like ghost have enough to work with.
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On November 21 2012 13:24 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 13:22 Crushgroove wrote:
Waaaaaaaaaait a second.....
No fungal on DTs? big problem with that but am willing to play with it and test it out.
No fungal on Warp prism? Hold the phone.
Warp prisms with speed are faster than every single zerg unit accept zergling, speed roach on creep, and mutalisk.
So, let me get this straight, blizzard wants for the only unit in the zerg army capable of killing a prism to be a mutalisk. hydras can't catch them, queens can't catch them, corruptors can't catch them. and prisms only cost minerals.
..........what?
So they get a pylon that can be put anywhere, limitless harassment possibility, and the only way I can kill it is with mutas or if it actually flies into a bunch of anti air.
I don't understand....
This is an error. Hydras, queens, corruptors, infested terrans... the only way they kill a speed prism is with fungal. Am I supposed to make a spire and 5 mutas every single game in zvp now?
Objection. Welcome to lategame TvP difficulties, hope you enjoy your journey.
implying all zerg units move at 2.25 movement speed XD
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On November 21 2012 13:22 Lunareste wrote:
I see this change working out well because ghosts having fungal immunity should make EMP more viable as an anti caster spell.
Not if there are BLs around, some Overseers + the Broodling wall will still prevent Ghosts from reaching their target.
On November 21 2012 13:22 Lunareste wrote:
At some point in the mid game, Terran now has the option to delay 2-3 medivacs or vikings in order to get a ghost academy down and moebius reactor started.
Very unlikely, Ghosts are still too expensive for midgame.
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United States7483 Posts
On November 21 2012 13:22 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 13:16 Whitewing wrote:
Do what Gumiho already does, sneak ghosts in from multiple angles, and be proactive in attacking the zerg's infestor count, don't just sit and let it come to you, EMP and snipe infestors all day long. He even does medivac drops with ghosts behind the army and from the sides of the army to get his ghosts into position. Sure, sounds like something the average ladder Joe can do every game, eh?
Balance should be determined at the top level, and it's not all that hard to load some units into a dropship, drop them behind the enemy army, and move cloaked units in from behind. I already do high templar drops with storm against terran bio and do my best with feedback drops against infestors already, and that's much more difficult with units that don't cloak and can be affected by fungal. Just hotkey the ghosts in the medivac, send the medivac to drop, and have the ghosts move in, it's basic micro, not really any harder than stutter stepping marines.
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These changes are definitely worth trying. I'm kinda thinking they should've erred on the 'overpowered' side for the raven buff in order to appease Terrans, even if it had to be dialed back later.
PvZ just got much more difficult as a Zerg player. I like the fungal change, but having Archons, Warp Prisms and DTs immune to fungal is a huge deal. This might fix the BL/infestor problem simply because the Zerg can't afford to go that composition in the face of the buffed harassment that Protoss now have.
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On November 21 2012 13:28 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 13:22 Lunareste wrote:
I see this change working out well because ghosts having fungal immunity should make EMP more viable as an anti caster spell. Not if there are BLs around, some Overseers + the Broodling wall will still prevent Ghosts from reaching their target. Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 13:22 Lunareste wrote:
At some point in the mid game, Terran now has the option to delay 2-3 medivacs or vikings in order to get a ghost academy down and moebius reactor started. Very unlikely, Ghosts are still too expensive for midgame.
also, what incentive does this give when i can build siege tanks for less minerals, not tie up my barracks building ghosts and instead use this money for 13 range siege tanks that are relevant vs all ground compositions??
edit: the 200/100 ghost cost is something that seems to, in my mind, prevent me from producing them over siege tanks. siege tanks cost 25 more gas, and with normal marine tank compositions it is not unusual to have excess gas, even at the professional level. minerals seem to be the limiting factor in terran production and siege tanks are simply more useful and cost less
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EPT
