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As long as they get rid of the psionic attribute for Warp Prism's and DT's I will be totally 100% with the changes.
I think my reasoning for the WP is obvious but for DT's the problem, IMO, comes from the fact that it forces like 4+ overseers that zerg are REQUIRED to make so they don't die to DT's, at least previously if you were on top of your game and spotted the DTs you could hold them in place while you morphed some or maybe even killed them outright if they were clumped. That just seems like no fair for the Z to be forced into doing something like this.
And this is coming from a T so take my opinion of the DTs with a grain of salt since i have no firsthand knowledge of the matchup.
EDIT/PS: It doesn't say if "unaffected" means not slowed or that it just doesn't even take damage. I would be okay with it still revealing DTs even if it does no damage since you could then kill it with zerglings or queens or whatever, but if you can't even reveal them with fungal that's stupid.
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In addressing the metagame in the near future, we’re taking the time to fully determine which changes will work best together, and we're not looking for first impressions. Please playtest the new map thoroughly and then join us in this discussion thread with your feedback.
Kaivax, Community Manager
Dammit, looks like Blizz is onto us. They've even bolded that part lol.
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China6331 Posts
Both welcomed changes, but I don't think the Raven changes will do anything significant.
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Seems like a really awkward way to nerf fungal... I don't think anyone saw that coming. Like I guess they mostly wanted HT and ghosts to be immune so they could counter infestors better, but don't want to make oddly specific rules like that so they just gave it to all psionic instead. Not really the fix I was looking for.
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More reason to stop playing this game.....
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So, I'm not sure if this was a bug or not, but while testing on the map, I couldn't spawn ITs while my infestors were burrowed.
Edit: I'm thinking it's a bug, because I also didn't have NP available for research, and my infestor's movespeed while burrowed was 1.0
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epic fail on blizzard's part.
i'm reminded of the melvin v vorthos articles on mtgo; though as i look closer at them they aren't exactly on point.
It's not that these changes are bad balance-wise; it's that the fungal change is TERRIBLE flavorwise, it makes no sense why those particular units aren't affected. There's already a large number of serious flavor disconnects which hurt the game; making the problem worse is bad, especially when there's better ways to fix these things.
and they should try to balance the game properly; ANYONE can get the win rates for 3 races to be equal, that's not hard at all, it's doing it with good design that takes skill.
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United Kingdom20343 Posts
On November 21 2012 11:22 AdrianHealey wrote:
...I am only diamond, but is it me or is 'fungal immune to psionic' just insane? How do you stop immortal sentry now? What is fungal good for now? Stalkers?
I just want to say if you are holding immortal sentry all in with fungal then YOUR OPPONENT IS DOING IT WRONG.
I have no idea how you get infestor squad out for 9:30 engagement from 3hatch before gas. Replays please?
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On November 21 2012 12:15 Lunareste wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 11:59 Protosnake wrote:On November 21 2012 11:54 Lunareste wrote:
Maybe now Zergs won't be taking a 4 minute 3rd base, make minimal units until they see a move out, and still be able to hold sentry/immortal all in. It's too greedy, too easy for zerg to get to 70 drones and move into hive tech by the 12 minute mark.
Hopefully the fear of the strategy will encourage zerg slow down their tech to infestor/brood lord and make the games more diverse by having them invest more into army units in the early to mid game transition.
You think FFE isnt greedy ? The fast 3 base ZvP is a simple reaction to FFE, if you dont take that 3rd base you're all-in. That how it always worked, before Stephano created that build, every ZvP was a roach-muta all-in that led to an (uneeded and irrelevant) phoenix buff. Even more since 2base Infestor cant hold Psionic based units push anymore (Not that it would be smart to all-in a zerg on 2 base) I think it's a lot less greedy than what zerg is doing in the current meta game, yeah. 3rd base, 70 drones, hope you have infestors/fungals out at the 9 minute mark. I think the best thing that could happen with this change is to force zerg to create additional spine crawlers or army units prior to the 8 minute mark. What I would like to see in this matchup, to make it less boring from the get go and less of a nr20 macro fest on the zerg's part, is for the zerg to be forced to invest money into army and defensive units. That also gives Protoss the additional benefit of having delayed Hive tech, which will then possibly lead to more strategy if they figure out that a zerg isn't making all drones; instead, they're able to more safely take a 3rd and transition in to the late game better. For the record, and I could be 100% wrong, I think the 2 base sentry/immortal all in is still beatable by zerg if they force forcefields out mid map, if they make static defenses at their bases, if they make more units in the early game or a combination of the three. I don't know what anyone else thinks, but I'm sick and tired of seeing zergs do the exact same thing in the 2 non mirror matchups for the last 6 months. I think that making zergs be more cautious and delaying infestor/brood lord is going to be healthy for the matchup, and make it more exciting when you don't know exactly what's going to happen every game.
It's not "Greedy". Boasting about the 70 drone is irrelevant when you have yourself 45 probes. The zerg just see your choice to drop your ability to be aggressive to gain a better economy and his ability to stop you from doing it by reacting accordingly : Hence why you FFE : he take a fast 3rd.
You wont have 9min infestors with a 3base opening, they already barely come in time to defend against immortal all-in, and they do not stop it at all.
Dropping mass spinecrawler before 8 min is a MASSIVE hit to your economy and do not at all guarantee you to be safe against any all-in. Especially the immortal one.
ZvP is a NR20 macro fest for everyone, if anything protoss is the one getting the most of it since they have way more ways to be aggressive than Z, a lot of people dont go BL/Infestor by choice, it's simply the only way to be really aggressive.
Immortal/Sentry is beatable if protoss make mistakes, but zerg micro is irrelevant, this is better explained in the Morrow's post here : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382814
An immortal/sentry being a success or not is solely dependant on the protoss side, outside of proper macro, Zerg just watch and pray
Overall I think this is a terrible change, DT, Sentry and warp prism play are already massively used despite the state of fungals and are getting an uneeded buff, Mothership being immune worry me, Archon/HT/Ghost being immune seems fairly reasonnable
PvZ having a design issue isnt fixed
TvZ having a balance issue isnt fixed
its not
key word: reactionary
So you completely agree with me, it's not greedy, it's just reactionary, thank you
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The HSM change leaves me perplexed. As far as late game is concerned, the issue is not in the requirement to research it but in its short cast range, relatively low damage/splash combined with the high brittleness and cost of ravens. Ravens using HSM are basically air banelings.
Also, as far as professional play is concerned, I suspect that a frequent enough usage of ravens will simply lead good zergs to split their air units (and by splitting I mean just not clumping them up so carelessly, so often) like terrans already do.
I also dislike the fungal change, unfortunately. Restricting it to non-psionic is an interesting idea (albeit mostly for TvZ, given that HTs tend to be easily zoned out by broodlords) but I personally think that the fungal's flaws are more fundamental than that. Rooting is simply... boring; rooting with high damage seems downright excessive. As far as PvZ goes, I reckon that this change is a bit ill-inspired: how do you deal with harassment if the protoss has an immune dropship/warpin? Not to mention pre-hive timings with immune sentries...
Hopefully they will be less shy with their infestor updates in HotS. We lack a proper testing infrastructure, and considering this I suppose that waiting for forced renewals of the metagame to introduce radical changes might be a good idea.
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Hmm. I think the style of approach they are taking for Fungal is correct. Right now, Infestors are literally always good to make, because they can deal with anything. They are probably the most versatile unit in the game, and therefore people make a ton of them.
I recently saw a pro zerg use fungal on a single stalker, deliberately. They are making so many Infestors that they can afford to use a strong spell like fungal on a single low tech unit. That is NOT good for the game.
If Blizzard had done something like make fungal into a slow, it would only lower the overall effectiveness of Infestors. They would still be the correct choice against everything. With this change, Infestors can no longer deal with all warp prism drops, and can no longer deal with all DT harass. They can't make an entire skirmishing squad of zealot/archon helpless.
I like that Blizzard targeted the versatility of the Infestor, because now they will not be able to deal with every situation. And at the same time they promoted counters for them (Ghost, HT).
Now, this change doesn't do as much for terran. And it doesn't compensate zerg with better alternatives (hydra). It may be too much of a change, but this is definitely the right idea for how to discourage massing Infestors.
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No fungals on DTs? Feel like this will be fine tuned a bit ^^
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We thought Immo/sentry all-ins were bad now...no fungals on sentries? I guess Blizz wants to hand Parting free money.
EDIT: Maybe I should say Seed, like that game where he extended the Immo/sentry until 200 supply
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Warp prism being immune to fungal is going to be a serious threat. It's hard to imagine Zerg handling speed prisms now, and I can imagine them carrying DTs lategame to make it worse.
I welcome this changes though, the game needs some shaking up to break from the monotony of its play.
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i dont really like both changes. the hsm buff wont change the low range and low damage per time and resources invested. and the fungal nerf is obviously intended to make hts and ghosts counter infestors better. this, however, does not affect the biggest ZvX issue: broodlord-infestor armies being too strong. the issue with bl infestor is that both units protect each other perfectly. two high-tech units with such a huge degree of synergy is just too much. how are ghosts supposed to get close to the infestors when there's a wall of broodlings in front of them? same goes for hts.
these changes dont affect tvz at all, and they wont fix zvp design wise. zerg lategame will still rule supreme against toss. toss is still gonna resort to 2 or 3 base pre-hive all-ins. this change will only make those all-ins more deadly, which further messes up zvp.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
If psionic units are going to be immune to fungal and the spell turned into a projectile (both good changes I think), it would probably help all the zerg tears to increase damage a little bit. Can't snipe sentries/HT/ghosts and other expensive low HP units anymore, so a little more damage to zealots/stalkers/marauders/etc sounds reasonable. Make the spell harder to cast and less versatile, but make it more effective when used correctly.
I want more range to HSM. Ravens can still be fungaled, which makes them iffy in the late game vs BL Infestor. However I think I will try getting a Raven after a Banshee opening for creep denial or obs snipe from now on.
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I hate the fungal change. It's another arbitrary change to make up for bad game design. How the skill works is the problem, making an exception is a lazy way of fixing it and it tells me that Blizzard does not know what to do.
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I would have preferred if they went with a fungal slow or fungal projectile.
2 big problems with infestor ATM, it does everything with no weaknesses or vulnerabilities and is far too self reliant as a support/raid caster.
Like Dustin said in his interview, a fungal slow will make drop and air harass a little less risky vs infestors and make chain fungal much harder since units will be moving and spreading. so this basically give the infestors a little more vulnerability vs air and encourage spire play more/discourage pure infestor.
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Seeing this as their response is extremely disturbing to me. It shows that they do not even begin to understand the issues much less attempt to fix them. The fungal nerf is huge. Not being able to get rid of sentries with fungal makes a bunch of pushes pre-hive extremely powerful. It basically just buffs ff even more than it already is.
Add that we can't detect dts anymore with a fungal to catch it and kill it and suddenly backstabs become ridiculous when coupled with the fact you can't stop warp prisms either. Blizzard seems unaware that the problems here are design-related. This is not how you fix a design issue. It would require a HUGE amount of overhaul on all 3 races to fix the glaring problems we all have.
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