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MetalPanda
Canada1152 Posts
But otherwise I like the change, but they also should do something about that all-in. EDIT : I think it might just give a big edge to Protoss in both mid-game and late-game : having archon toilet available, infestors being more easily snipeable, losing the detectability for DT's, having archons to keep infestors at a distance... I can't see this change being good. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 21 2012 11:43 zasg wrote: Well the raven change kind of makes Muta's completely worthless, is this not just going to push zergs to either 'A' build more infestors (which should now be challenged fairly well with Ghosts) or 'B' rush broodlords asap? I love Mutas and this makes me sad  One Raven with a single Missile will not change anything in Mutalisk play, especially as you can just fly away from the Missile anyway. | ||
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Jimbo77
139 Posts
- Ghost can now launch more Nuclears without being afraid of just get fgled and revealed. - DT are now hugely more viable at harassing and in army composition itself - WP play++!! - is a really good change for. - Same goes for Archons+ Zerg will now be forced to think ahead and not just spawn only one stupid unit to counter everything. Really good change! Additionally, they'd better remove NP from game entirely and we would see more strategies which are now almost dead. (BC, Carriers) | ||
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Mephyss
Brazil128 Posts
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SarcasmMonster
3136 Posts
On November 21 2012 11:43 JJH777 wrote: Zerg becomes incapable of holding a well controlled Protoss 3-base all-in if this change goes through. They really needed to do changes that ONLY affected the late game. All this is going to do is make killing before brood/infestor easier so we still won't see if it's actually possible for P to beat the composition. The psionic change also barely effects TvZ which anyone who isn't extremely biased would admit is the bigger problem. Protoss has done fine overall in tournament play since the queen/ovie patch. Terran has done horribly. Literally MVP and Taeja are the only 2 terrans with great results since the queen patch. I'd add ForGG to that list since he's literally more than 95% of his earnings were won post Queen patch. | ||
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Whatson
United States5357 Posts
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On November 21 2012 11:32 xAdra wrote: Exactly this. The Raven buff will allow for significantly faster HSM-ravens, and not just those that the army carry along and babysit like some detection whore. Interesting games, both played and watched. The infestor still has another glaring issue: Infested Terrans. I say nerf both, not just fungal. Will still wait for the better players to give their feedback. I am going to debunk this right now. I hope others read and inform themselves. The raven buff does not allow for significantly faster HSMs. The time it takes for you to accumulate raven seeker energy is exactly the same as before. This change does not affect seeker missile at all. The only impact this has on the game are: a) Terran spends 150/150 less than previously. Ravens exactly the same unreliable unit as they currently are. b) The only arguable impact this has is if a player has a tech labbed starport very early in the game and has that 1 raven they make usually in TvT. You'll have a seeker missile with no research. Once again, this has no impact in lategame. I repeat: Nothing changes lategame, ravens do not accumulate energy faster, you still are going to build a raven, and have to wait for seeker missile energy exactly the same as before. I'm pretty disgusted personally because i know other pros understand the issue apparently better than blizzard does and blizzard seems to just be stubborn. I've also written page long posts on the pro forums describing in detail the exact problems with the raven and Terran lategame, vikings, etc, and none of it goes through or blizzard refuses to believe it's problems. So I'll be writing an in depth post here on TL later analyzing exactly what the issue is with ravens, how this change does nothing to address TvZ lategame (in a meaningful way), and what blizzard should be doing to actually make the raven useful. We see the consistency. "Baby steps on the most miniscule non-impacting raven change ever," but they will arbitrarily buff queen range and overlord speed. 8 months of Z/P dominating T - "it's fine." It's disgusting. Don't worry Terrans and SC2 spectators - I got your back. I know i'll take a lil bit of flak for posting such thoughts while other players are too afraid to speak their thoughts, that's fine. I'll try to present them in an analytical manner so people don't see it as whining (which haters will regardless, don't care). We all want this game to be more balanced, and maybe for Terran to you know, not suck so hard. | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On November 21 2012 11:43 zasg wrote: Well the raven change kind of makes Muta's completely worthless, is this not just going to push zergs to either 'A' build more infestors (which should now be challenged fairly well with Ghosts) or 'B' rush broodlords asap? I love Mutas and this makes me sad Even if there is no need to upgrade HSM, I don't think terrans will be making ravens to counter mutas... Also, I agree with avilo here that making the HSM default without a upgrade doesn't really affect the late game since the 150/150 is very small issue in the late game. However, since HSM is default now, maybe we get get a Raven's upgrade which increases starting Raven energy or lower cost of HSM or increase energy regen for Ravens. I think they would make late game ravens more viable. | ||
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SynergySC2
United States27 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25995 Posts
It still might work out horribly though, await with interest what comes out of these potential changes. | ||
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Whatson
United States5357 Posts
On November 21 2012 11:47 SarcasmMonster wrote: I'd add ForGG to that list since he's literally more than 95% of his earnings were won post Queen patch. Because ForGG always goes for that pre-hive 2/3base timing | ||
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.kv
United States2332 Posts
On November 21 2012 11:49 SynergySC2 wrote: are ghost psionic units? Fungal Growth no longer affects Psionic units. (Sentry, High / Dark Templar, Archon, Warp Prism, Mothership, Ghost, Queen, Infestor) Read and your question may be answered  | ||
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oxxo
988 Posts
HSM change as avilo said is completely worthless. I don't see how Blizzard is actually saying there is not a problem. The racial/tournament compositions for T are just as bad if not worse than for the other races during GomTvT. Hopefully it's a matter of not knowing what to do pre-HOTS and not a 'well they were good before...' | ||
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Lunareste
United States3596 Posts
Hopefully the fear of the strategy will encourage zerg slow down their tech to infestor/brood lord and make the games more diverse by having them invest more into army units in the early to mid game transition. | ||
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JJH777
United States4414 Posts
On November 21 2012 11:47 SarcasmMonster wrote: I'd add ForGG to that list since he's literally more than 95% of his earnings were won post Queen patch. I'm not comparing it to past success. I'm comparing it to the other races. If ForGG was a Protoss he wouldn't even be top 10 results wise. The fact that he is probably the number 3 Terran (going purely by results) since the queen patch just shows how pathetic Terran has done since then. | ||
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c0sm0naut
United States1229 Posts
- leads to unintended balance consequences in PvZ - protoss win rate vs zerg soars dramatically because fungal doesn't work on sentries, archons, warp prisms, etc - tvz remains virtually the same except now the raven is slightly easier to field. this will seem like a big deal for a while but eventually people will remember that ravens are bad for other reasons, their affordability, HSM short range and need for multiple starports due to their slow build time and techlab requirement | ||
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SarcasmMonster
3136 Posts
On November 21 2012 11:55 JJH777 wrote: I'm not comparing it to past success. I'm comparing it to the other races. If ForGG was a Protoss he wouldn't even be top 10 results wise. The fact that he is probably the number 3 Terran (going purely by results) since the queen patch just shows how pathetic Terran has done since then. I think he would. He's earned $27,000 in the last 6 months (so $54,000 per year if he keeps it up). If you only count his earnings for the last 6 months, that's enough to put him #19 in the top  of all time.But he sits at #24 (#27 if you only count last 6 months) with his all time earnings because  tends to earn more than lol. | ||
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Protosnake
France295 Posts
On November 21 2012 11:54 Lunareste wrote: Maybe now Zergs won't be taking a 4 minute 3rd base, make minimal units until they see a move out, and still be able to hold sentry/immortal all in. It's too greedy, too easy for zerg to get to 70 drones and move into hive tech by the 12 minute mark. Hopefully the fear of the strategy will encourage zerg slow down their tech to infestor/brood lord and make the games more diverse by having them invest more into army units in the early to mid game transition. You think FFE isnt greedy ? The fast 3 base ZvP is a simple reaction to FFE, if you dont take that 3rd base you're all-in. That how it always worked, before Stephano created that build, every ZvP was a roach-muta all-in that led to an (uneeded and irrelevant) phoenix buff. Even more since 2base Infestor cant hold Psionic based units push anymore (Not that it would be smart to all-in a zerg on 2 base) | ||
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aeroblaster
United States422 Posts
On November 21 2012 11:18 phodacbiet wrote: Not damage, does that mean no damage + root or just no root? They're completely immune so no effect at all. Psionic units ignore it. The damage, root, everything. | ||
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Psyclon
Bulgaria2443 Posts
/insert Kayla McKale's face here/ | ||
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