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On October 23 2012 09:52 mikedebo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 09:43 storywriter wrote:On October 23 2012 09:39 Shival wrote:On October 23 2012 09:36 storywriter wrote:On October 23 2012 09:34 Kazeyonoma wrote:On October 23 2012 09:31 storywriter wrote:On October 23 2012 09:27 ThePurist wrote:On October 23 2012 09:25 tMomiji wrote:On October 23 2012 09:24 ThePurist wrote:On October 23 2012 09:23 tMomiji wrote:
[quote]
How do you know? Cuz I read it. And this kid is just straight up self-centered, irresponsible, possibly lying to the end, and disrespectful. GEE GEE.......... Wait, you can read Korean? ...So you can translate this?! Please?!? I was going to attempt for the sake of peeps here. But I am retarded and I realize how much work the translators do here...ㅅㄳㄱ. Trust them with big stuff like this. I read the phone call too and I don't get why Crank is getting all the hate. Jessica seems to think that Crank lied about not joining a foreign team but Crank makes it clear that he was leaving the team because it was going way downhill (he didn't even have a contract). Boxer doesn't seem to share Jessica's view either (he never explicitly says that Crank lied and says something like "you're going to have to deal with all the crap we give you only because you were the first to leave the team"). Also Boxer's comment about Crank being at fault because he didn't handle MMA - seriously? Why the fuck would you leave handling your star player to another player? WTF are managers for? I would say Crank is the scapegoat here. Because at the time crank was the co captain? ... fine, you'd leave handling your star player to your 'co captain'? There's no excuse for Jessica and Boxer having neglected the players. You think the manager of Startale is going to be walking around each day and help the players? Actually what about FXO, Choya is handling the affairs there, not some manager. Actually FXOBoSS was even pissed at Choya for being part of the eSF ban. See, Slayers is falling apart. Crank's made it clear something needs to be done. MMA is acting up. Boxer/Jessica: oh let's not do anything -> team falls apart -> shit, it was all Crank's fault. Are you not seeing something is wrong here? Also, Boxer was meant to be a playing 'coach'. The team is called Slayers. MMA is Boxer's son. Crank did nothing wrong regarding MMA, I'd say. Don't even bother, he's been steadfastly holding to his POV for all 3000000 pages of the last thread. You're not going to change his mind. I will commend Shival on being perfectly civil the whole time and never reacting badly to anyone baiting him. He's just asked "opposing" questions in a calm tone. If only certain people with certain privileges had behaved the same 
Yeah, nothing short of evidence supporting any of the players will sway my mind at this point.
I'd like to stress that the same apperantly also holds for alot of other persons in this thread, but on the opposite side.
Also, thanks for the compliment, it's appreciated. Doing any less would only make my opinion invalid, I believe.
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@mongmong:
You mentioned certain things throughout the thread:
- Coach Ryu being introduced to SlayerS by MMA, and a conversation that he was MMA's personal coach and SlayerS wouldnt pay him
- that the players could take the car
And I think some more which I forgot 
May I ask were that is from? From one of the interviews? From Cella's twitter? Not that I doubt you, just interested where this is from.
Edit: Oh and thanks for providing insight
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We can't let League of Legends win =(
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On October 23 2012 09:54 Proflo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 09:53 vpatrickd wrote:
Keep in mind that Jessica is older than BoxeR, and Crank is only 24yrs old.
Jessica used to be in the entertainment industry. She worked with all sorts of people.
Looking at this from that perspective, I'm feeling like Crank shouldn't talk like that to her and at least apologize for yelling at her. Yeah, not everyone here on TL realizes how taboo that kind of disrespect is in Korea.
Maybe Crank has been reading Malcom Gladwell lol
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On October 23 2012 09:55 mongmong wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 09:53 Veldril wrote:On October 23 2012 09:49 mongmong wrote:On October 23 2012 09:47 Mackus wrote:On October 23 2012 09:45 EMIYA wrote:
MMA deserves better. Go to EG or liquid.
Honestly, he did a bit wrong too, like being too pensive and sensitive enough to not confront these communication break downs as they appeared, but I don't really blame him too much--its pretty much how the their culture works half the time. Refuses to pay his Coach who won him the GSL. Deserves better, good logic. Yet some refuse to believe it. Because you can't prove it beyond doubt? Well, If Jessica is lying about it, shes being very creative cuz it seems very "detailed" Giving graphics card to the coach instead of monetary compensation. hmm...
That's not the question I asked. I asked whether you can prove it beyond doubt or not? If not, then what you said is only a speculation.
And when people lied, the can be very creative too.
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On October 23 2012 09:58 Zocat wrote:@mongmong: You mentioned certain things throughout the thread: - Coach Ryu being introduced to SlayerS by MMA, and a conversation that he was MMA's personal coach and SlayerS wouldnt pay him - that the players could take the car And I think some more which I forgot May I ask were that is from? From one of the interviews? From Cella's twitter? Not that I doubt you, just interested where this is from.
Yes it is from the recorded call by Jessica in the interview link from TiG. You can go further check them out in the SlayerS Disband thread, resumed by another fellow TLer.
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On October 23 2012 09:58 Zocat wrote:@mongmong: You mentioned certain things throughout the thread: - Coach Ryu being introduced to SlayerS by MMA, and a conversation that he was MMA's personal coach and SlayerS wouldnt pay him - that the players could take the car And I think some more which I forgot May I ask were that is from? From one of the interviews? From Cella's twitter? Not that I doubt you, just interested where this is from.
jessica's interview with inven
http://www.inven.co.kr/webzine/news/?news=48923
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On October 23 2012 09:58 Zocat wrote:@mongmong: You mentioned certain things throughout the thread: - Coach Ryu being introduced to SlayerS by MMA, and a conversation that he was MMA's personal coach and SlayerS wouldnt pay him - that the players could take the car And I think some more which I forgot May I ask were that is from? From one of the interviews? From Cella's twitter? Not that I doubt you, just interested where this is from.
The stuff with the car iirc was in an Interview of Jessica in response to Alicia, and in CranKs statement. But could very well be that im mixing it up now.
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again who actually keeps all this type of evidence in the first place? that too me is a sign something is wrong, and I doubt very much that jessica is being impartial in what she brings to the table...
And that phonecall, I dont see what crank did wrong. He wasnt even under contract so its really none of their business why he wanted to leave is it? Perhaps I missed something there.
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On October 23 2012 09:54 Shival wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 09:51 Jimz1469 wrote:On October 23 2012 09:49 Jindo wrote:On October 23 2012 09:43 NovemberstOrm wrote:
No matter how you look at this everything goes back to Slayers having a bad manager/bad training environment/jessica.
If the team was run properly none of this would have happened and everyone would be happy, MMA would probably have a few more GSL's under his belt, Boxer might not have left to coach, and Slayers wouldn't have had to die. Yeah, she was a good manager when Slayers won GSTL two times. But now, she's terrible. THEY won, not her. Good logic there. Team falls, her responsibility. Team wins GSTL, team's responsibility.
The logic is pretty flawless.
If a team wins GSTL (accomplished by playing good Starcraft), then yes, it is the players' accomplishments, alongside maybe the coaches that worked with players during their preparation.
If a team falls apart, is ostracised from other teams / the scene, loses sponsors, loses a lot of talented players over a few months with most of remaining players wanting to leave as well, then it is the fault of the management alone.
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On October 23 2012 09:57 Shival wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 09:52 mikedebo wrote:On October 23 2012 09:43 storywriter wrote:On October 23 2012 09:39 Shival wrote:On October 23 2012 09:36 storywriter wrote:On October 23 2012 09:34 Kazeyonoma wrote:On October 23 2012 09:31 storywriter wrote:On October 23 2012 09:27 ThePurist wrote:On October 23 2012 09:25 tMomiji wrote:On October 23 2012 09:24 ThePurist wrote:
[quote]
Cuz I read it. And this kid is just straight up self-centered, irresponsible, possibly lying to the end, and disrespectful.
GEE GEE.......... Wait, you can read Korean? ...So you can translate this?! Please?!? I was going to attempt for the sake of peeps here. But I am retarded and I realize how much work the translators do here...ㅅㄳㄱ. Trust them with big stuff like this. I read the phone call too and I don't get why Crank is getting all the hate. Jessica seems to think that Crank lied about not joining a foreign team but Crank makes it clear that he was leaving the team because it was going way downhill (he didn't even have a contract). Boxer doesn't seem to share Jessica's view either (he never explicitly says that Crank lied and says something like "you're going to have to deal with all the crap we give you only because you were the first to leave the team"). Also Boxer's comment about Crank being at fault because he didn't handle MMA - seriously? Why the fuck would you leave handling your star player to another player? WTF are managers for? I would say Crank is the scapegoat here. Because at the time crank was the co captain? ... fine, you'd leave handling your star player to your 'co captain'? There's no excuse for Jessica and Boxer having neglected the players. You think the manager of Startale is going to be walking around each day and help the players? Actually what about FXO, Choya is handling the affairs there, not some manager. Actually FXOBoSS was even pissed at Choya for being part of the eSF ban. See, Slayers is falling apart. Crank's made it clear something needs to be done. MMA is acting up. Boxer/Jessica: oh let's not do anything -> team falls apart -> shit, it was all Crank's fault. Are you not seeing something is wrong here? Also, Boxer was meant to be a playing 'coach'. The team is called Slayers. MMA is Boxer's son. Crank did nothing wrong regarding MMA, I'd say. Don't even bother, he's been steadfastly holding to his POV for all 3000000 pages of the last thread. You're not going to change his mind. I will commend Shival on being perfectly civil the whole time and never reacting badly to anyone baiting him. He's just asked "opposing" questions in a calm tone. If only certain people with certain privileges had behaved the same Yeah, nothing short of evidence supporting any of the players will sway my mind at this point. I'd like to stress that the same apperantly also holds for alot of other persons in this thread, but on the opposite side. Also, thanks for the compliment, it's appreciated. Doing any less would only make my opinion invalid, I believe.
True. Despite disagreeing with me you never attacked me, which I thank you for.
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United States33592 Posts
the phone call is boring, so here's cella's twitter stream of thought
if it's hard to read, then it's because I translated it without thinking to fix his rambling to a more readable form
@SlayersCella
I wasn't going to write about the recent news if I could avoid it - Crank said that he would leave the team at the end of the season [Note: probably means GSTL/GSL], and asked that I keep it a secret from Jessica for the time being. When he abruptly began to pack his things before the vs. TSL match, and I asked him what he was doing, he said that he planned to go home and play while resting. So I asked him if I could tell Jessica, and he said that he was going to tell her -
- so I guess he told her, she asked me whether it was okay for him to play from home. I replied that he had a prepared strategy for the vs. Fnatic game that he had not used, so it was no problem if he played from home, so we had talked to Jessica and it was fully okay to send him home -
- Also, Crank definitely said that he was leaving the team at the end of the season, and we were in the middle of the season then. He asked if it was okay to play from home, and I said it as okay, and because he said he was leaving the team after the season ended, I thought obviously there would be no problem for him to play in the match, and he was very well prepared as well. So I thought it was fine if he went home to rest and practice -
- and have a final check-up on him after he rejoined the team the day before the match. It was a strategy he had practiced for almost two weeks, so he was as used to it as possible. However, when Crank received the contact regarding entries/roster when he was at home, he complained to me asking why Jessica would do that, so I asked him what the problem was? -
- and he asked me "are you asking because you really don't know?" and I told him I really didn't know, to which he said then "well if you don't know, just keep it that way." I hadn't heard a request to remove himself from the roster befoer that, nor did he tell me that he was going to focus solely on medical care. -
*[Cella's Self Correction Tweet] A correction, he did definitely ask to be removed from the roster. After he went back home. He asked to be removed from the roster before going back home, he would have had to had discussed it with Jessica. Because it was mid-season, I thought even if he went back home he could play in the match, and anyway I passed on that request to Jessica later. -
- At the time, I had made a bad decision because of my attachment to the team, and I think I contributed to the team heading towards a crisis, and I was criticized heavily by Boxer and Jessica after that. As for that bad decision, I don't want anything to happen to the players, so I'll just take the criticism that I'm covering things up, and shut my mouth about it. -
- Regarding payment, I'm not financially well off, but I'm thankful to Boxer and Jessica for taking in a guy like me, and I did make my own personal goals for what I wanted to achieve with the team. The motivation to reach those goals wasn't money or anything material -
- I told Jessica and Boxer when the team situation and atmosphere wasn't that good, that I could work for the team for two more years, until I was 31, without anything like a salary, and do what I could to achieve those goals. If there wasn't a corporate sponsor by that time, or if the team disbanded before then -
- I said I could go abroad and work myself to death to make up the money I hadn't made before, so they didn't have to worry. Compared to $100,000's they put into the team. Also, that time was just a very bad period, and Boxer and Jessica tried to get me a coaching position on a different team, and I said I wouldn't go -
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On October 23 2012 09:58 Veldril wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 09:55 mongmong wrote:On October 23 2012 09:53 Veldril wrote:On October 23 2012 09:49 mongmong wrote:On October 23 2012 09:47 Mackus wrote:On October 23 2012 09:45 EMIYA wrote:
MMA deserves better. Go to EG or liquid.
Honestly, he did a bit wrong too, like being too pensive and sensitive enough to not confront these communication break downs as they appeared, but I don't really blame him too much--its pretty much how the their culture works half the time. Refuses to pay his Coach who won him the GSL. Deserves better, good logic. Yet some refuse to believe it. Because you can't prove it beyond doubt? Well, If Jessica is lying about it, shes being very creative cuz it seems very "detailed" Giving graphics card to the coach instead of monetary compensation. hmm... That's not the question I asked. I asked whether you can prove it beyond doubt or not? If not, then what you said is only a speculation. And when people lied, the can be very creative too.
Well im sure some will raise questions abot this, and when they do, im pretty sure
coach Ryu will be nice enough to prove it himself
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On October 23 2012 10:00 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 09:54 Shival wrote:On October 23 2012 09:51 Jimz1469 wrote:On October 23 2012 09:49 Jindo wrote:On October 23 2012 09:43 NovemberstOrm wrote:
No matter how you look at this everything goes back to Slayers having a bad manager/bad training environment/jessica.
If the team was run properly none of this would have happened and everyone would be happy, MMA would probably have a few more GSL's under his belt, Boxer might not have left to coach, and Slayers wouldn't have had to die. Yeah, she was a good manager when Slayers won GSTL two times. But now, she's terrible. THEY won, not her. Good logic there. Team falls, her responsibility. Team wins GSTL, team's responsibility. The logic is pretty flawless. If a team wins GSTL (accomplished by playing good Starcraft), then yes, it is the players' accomplishments, alongside maybe the coaches that worked with players during their preparation. If a team falls apart, is ostracised from other teams / the scene, loses sponsors, loses a lot of talented players over a few months with most of remaining players wanting to leave as well, then it is the fault of the management alone.
Ah, and what about the environment provided by the manager? The house provided by the manager? The pc's provided by the manager? The coaches provided by the manager? Do I need to go on?
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On October 23 2012 09:55 redc wrote:
Seems to me that cultural differences explain a lot of the reactions to this drama. In the west the buck stops at the top, if an organization fails the CEO/manager takes responsibility.
What they don't do is scapegoat employees that left the organization months ago. There are disputes along the way with any group of people, airing all this at the end is a poor reflection on management. More so in this case as management are adults and their employees are mostly minors and young adults.
That's bullshit. How often do you see CEOs and managers "in the west" take responsibility? Everyone's out to cover their own ass, and rarely do any leave without essentially being forced out.
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On October 23 2012 10:00 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 09:54 Shival wrote:On October 23 2012 09:51 Jimz1469 wrote:On October 23 2012 09:49 Jindo wrote:On October 23 2012 09:43 NovemberstOrm wrote:
No matter how you look at this everything goes back to Slayers having a bad manager/bad training environment/jessica.
If the team was run properly none of this would have happened and everyone would be happy, MMA would probably have a few more GSL's under his belt, Boxer might not have left to coach, and Slayers wouldn't have had to die. Yeah, she was a good manager when Slayers won GSTL two times. But now, she's terrible. THEY won, not her. Good logic there. Team falls, her responsibility. Team wins GSTL, team's responsibility. The logic is pretty flawless. If a team wins GSTL (accomplished by playing good Starcraft), then yes, it is the players' accomplishments, alongside maybe the coaches that worked with players during their preparation. If a team falls apart, is ostracised from other teams / the scene, loses sponsors, loses a lot of talented players over a few months with most of remaining players wanting to leave as well, then it is the fault of the management alone.
Except it's already been proven that alot of these problems are caused by ESF and Mr. J. Stop it.
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On October 23 2012 09:59 Snusmumriken wrote:
again who actually keeps all this type of evidence in the first place? that too me is a sign something is wrong, and I doubt very much that jessica is being impartial in what she brings to the table...
And that phonecall, I dont see what crank did wrong. He wasnt even under contract so its really none of their business why he wanted to leave is it? Perhaps I missed something there.
It's common business sense to record and keep everything for atleast the past 2 years.
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On October 23 2012 10:00 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 09:54 Shival wrote:On October 23 2012 09:51 Jimz1469 wrote:On October 23 2012 09:49 Jindo wrote:On October 23 2012 09:43 NovemberstOrm wrote:
No matter how you look at this everything goes back to Slayers having a bad manager/bad training environment/jessica.
If the team was run properly none of this would have happened and everyone would be happy, MMA would probably have a few more GSL's under his belt, Boxer might not have left to coach, and Slayers wouldn't have had to die. Yeah, she was a good manager when Slayers won GSTL two times. But now, she's terrible. THEY won, not her. Good logic there. Team falls, her responsibility. Team wins GSTL, team's responsibility. The logic is pretty flawless. If a team wins GSTL (accomplished by playing good Starcraft), then yes, it is the players' accomplishments, alongside maybe the coaches that worked with players during their preparation. If a team falls apart, is ostracised from other teams / the scene, loses sponsors, loses a lot of talented players over a few months with most of remaining players wanting to leave as well, then it is the fault of the management alone.
Thats actually complete and utter crap, im sorry. Players (as you can actually see) are as much involved in the crash of Slayers as the management. And the same goes for the GSTL wins, because you know, you still need a good enviroment to train (as you can actually see by players complaining). And thats created by the management.
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On October 23 2012 09:59 Snusmumriken wrote:
again who actually keeps all this type of evidence in the first place? that too me is a sign something is wrong, and I doubt very much that jessica is being impartial in what she brings to the table...
And that phonecall, I dont see what crank did wrong. He wasnt even under contract so its really none of their business why he wanted to leave is it? Perhaps I missed something there.
Some people's logic here are just appalling. People need to grow up. Jessica is well experienced in entertainment industry where everything is about contracts. You see the shit happening here? Without those recordings none of you would have believed Jessica anyway (in Korea it would be different). I think it is OBVIOUS and perfectly normal to record w.e that has to do with contracts and conversations that might possibly aid you in legal affairs. Again, she was in entertainment industry, where female celebrities have no power. If your sponsor or company lied to you, what can you do?
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On October 23 2012 09:55 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 09:53 Neo7 wrote:On October 23 2012 09:47 Caihead wrote:On October 23 2012 09:45 tMomiji wrote:On October 23 2012 09:42 Caihead wrote:On October 23 2012 09:40 tMomiji wrote:On October 23 2012 09:38 Zato-1 wrote:
If MMA and Crank didn't have the courage to confront Jessica about the rumors... then to me, that speaks badly of Jessica as a leader and a manager. To be a good manager, you need to foster an atmosphere of trust and candor; even if sometimes you cannot be 100% transparent with what you're doing, players should never feel afraid to talk to you about something, especially if it's business-related. I get the impression that Jessica was a pretty terrible manager, and living in those conditions, it's not surprising to see this blow up into one big drama.
~Slayers T_T This is the point I have been trying to make!!!! The bullocks is that supposed to mean. More like they were afraid of prosecution if Jessica found out about their own actions. Why are people operating under the assumption that this is a not for profit organization where Jessica has to be nice to everybody? If you don't report something that's your responsibility fucking period. In professional terms, if the employee doesn't report a problem that they think will damage the integrity of the company, WHILE the supervisor is trying to find out what it is and actively prompting them, then they should be held responsible. Nobody should feel afraid of their employer. Are you saying that it's alright for someone to live in constant fear and mistrust of their superior(s)? Fear? Was Jessica making threats? The proper thing to do is report it to the legal authorities. How the hell does this constitute as a legitimate excuse. I don't need to like my boss to do my job, even if I personally hated my boss I have a responsibility to finish my job and be professional. Following this logic, then Jessica had failed in her duties as a manager. It is the job of management to proactively take care of your direct reports. While her mind was in the right mindset, she did not possess the communication nor management skills to properly pull it off and she seems to be blaming everyone else for her short comings. For her to be making some piss-poor decisions of how to run the team and its image, it's really no wonder why MMA didn't want to deal with management. Or it's just an excuse because no professional is "afraid" to report anything to defend their rights. Seriously? These people are being paid to do a job. There's no legal authority over this? If Jessica was so bad then leave the team proper or report it to authorities. And again apparently other players on the team didn't have this problem, don't pretend Alicia / Crank / MMA were the only Slayers members period.
Really? I heard the terms "atmosphere was really bad" popup quite a bit. To put the leadership on the players is extremely unfair and Jessica is also in employment as well and as a manager holds significantly higher responsibility. In employment, it is often preferred to succeed the chain of command to the next higher up (e.g. in my employment specifically, if I had a problem with my manager at the magnitude that Jessica was displaying, I would escalate it to the director above him). In SlayerS, I didn't really see any other management to turn to other than BoxeR which there were multiple instances where those players did approach with problems and again the problem was not resolved in a satisfactory way (which again is the fault of the leadership, not the players). I did see where Jessica did try to resolve the problem but they were extremely poor alternatives that were "time limited" that really drove players more away than helped at all.
And for three players to have this problem in particular, it's actually surprising that the entire team collapsed.
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EPT
