On August 27 2012 12:44 canikizu wrote: [quote] But we did have 2 stations, right? That's the whole point of it. Even if ESF players don't have TV exposure, the fact that there's a rivalry between 2 different party will make casual audience aware of the existence of the other one. So it's basically free advertisement for ESF. Eventually if the demand allows it and the price is right, it will happen.
Actually, no. The casual audience will only want to see their Kespa players. So, if it is ESF vs ESF it is unlikely that they will be watching. They want to see the best and the best were the current players of Brood War. During the WCS, the Brood War players have already demonstrated that after 3 1/2 months while simutaniously and concurrently playing two games they are already on par with GOM/ESF players. Which means later down the line they will surpass them, thus Kespa being the best pros and that is where the interest lies. Much like the foreign fans preferring to watch two Koreans rather than two foreigners (I apologize if I generalized).
I never understood this line of reasoning. It's one thing to catch up to the existing level of play, it's a whole other thing to transcend it and make break thrus etc.
Beating the current GSL champ who has played for 2 years to your 3 1/2 months is more of "surpassing" then it is catching up. Also, we know how hard it was to become a Brood War pro and why most of the ESF and current SC2 pros did not make a big splash in the scene. It took a load of skill. We know the potential of Brood War pros which is why people make the comparison.
The reason, or at least one of the major reasons, that a lot of the ESF players were not able to break out in BW but became the best players in SC2 was because if you were not already an A team player in BW then you had to spend so much of your time helping the best players on your team stay the best and not a lot of time on improving yourself. when players switched to SC2 they were able to focus on themselves and as a result they were able to reach their potential something that was not possible in BW. remember that July advised MC, they were team mates in BW, to change to SC2 because he would have better opportunities to be successful because by that time BW had become too codified.
Ok. So, what you are telling me is that the current SC2 players have reached their potential and that Kespa players after 3 1/2 months while playing two games have already caught up to it? Sounds to me like very bad news for GOM players and that GSL should stay GOM and OSL should stay Kespa. Otherwise, GOM players will only have foreign events as a way to make a profit. July probably encouraged MC to switch to SC2 because he was not doing well on BW with a 1-9 record. Also, I do not understand the bolded quote. I would think that training with the best player on the team would well...make you better overall. Because you improve by playing people better then you.
There is a difference between training with someone and helping someone else train. if you are training with someone then you should improve but if you are helping some else prepare and being giving specific instructions on what to do so they can practice against it then you wont improve and it will be very demotivating.
As for KESPA players catching up I never said that and if you are inferring that KESPA players have caught up because they are able to beat GSL players then you are setting a very low standard. If they were not able to beat GSL players then that would show a huge lack of skill on their part, high level players should be able to beat any other high level player at any time in a series. As soon as we knew that they were able to make GM on the korean ladder then that meant that they were able to take games of any player in the world and if you can take a game you can take a series. but it is much to early to say they have caught up, they are good and nobody thought they wouldn't be but are equal, no not yet. but that does not mean that GSL players will never lose a series against a KESPA player
I agree with that last part. But I think Kespas streak was more then enough to confirm that they have indeed caught up to the current GOM pros. @the bolded part: Also by GSL players do you mean your current champion Seed? DRG? Gumiho? Puzzle? Leenock (who just won MLG)?
As for KESPA catching up that is opinion based so i think we can agree to disagree on that. im confused about the last part of you post and what point you are trying to make, maybe im just dense at the moment.
Why go by opinions when we have facts?...The point that I am trying to make by my last quote is that it was some of SC2s best players that lost to Kespa players. The fact that they beat some of the best SC2 had to offer is enough evidence to show that they have caught up and are on par with the current GOM pros.
God damn, you're dumb. You don't realize that you're taking a really, REALLY small sample and extrapolating greatly. That doesn't work. If they CONTINUE to beat players like Seed and Teaja, then maybe you'll be right. But right now there simply isn't sufficient evidence for you to truly back up your claim. A few BO3 series do not an entire scene define.
I always thought this was because the Kespa players are under a Contract.
Just because a contract exists doesn't mean that contract is fair to both parties. KESPA has way more power then the players and uses this power to prevent the players from negotiating an equitable agreement. Acts like shutting out other leagues(like GOM) is an example of this as it limits the players ability to find other opportunites.
Lets take this back a step, ahem! Who created the Korean & StarCraft e-sports scene again? Exactly! Kespa made it a possibility for the players to even have an opportunity to begin with. I suggest that you do not be so closed minded.
Just because you give opportunities for players to be a progamer or you have made up a scene from the ground doesn't give you the rights to treat your players like shit
I enjoy this vast display of exaggeration. Assuming that you have been a pro gamer for Kespa and all, you know that they are treated like shit. Right!
Lol you obviously know nothing about kespA. Go listen to idras recent interview he used to be on a kespA team.
IdrA have became indolent.
Now he is too busy doing talk shows and probably giving interviews.
He is treated as an sensation while the community scorn upon him before in BW for losing to F91, a Chinese Zerg player who plays the game as a side job while he was practicing in an actual progaming environment in CJ.
I'm sure than 100% of people here would regard their shitty past to....be 'inhumane'.
Wow dude. You just sound bitter and stupid.
And you can't come up with a proper argument, talking about imbecility. Pff
I'll take a progamer who lived in a kespa team's house (Idra and I believe ret and nony have talked about it to) over you.
Honestly, as much of Brood War fan as I am. I expected ALL of kespa guys to lose 100% of their best of 3 games in the WCS. The latest I would even begin to imagine them taking a best of 3 series from the GOM guys would be the second season of GSL after their switch.
On August 27 2012 12:44 canikizu wrote: [quote] But we did have 2 stations, right? That's the whole point of it. Even if ESF players don't have TV exposure, the fact that there's a rivalry between 2 different party will make casual audience aware of the existence of the other one. So it's basically free advertisement for ESF. Eventually if the demand allows it and the price is right, it will happen.
Actually, no. The casual audience will only want to see their Kespa players. So, if it is ESF vs ESF it is unlikely that they will be watching. They want to see the best and the best were the current players of Brood War. During the WCS, the Brood War players have already demonstrated that after 3 1/2 months while simutaniously and concurrently playing two games they are already on par with GOM/ESF players. Which means later down the line they will surpass them, thus Kespa being the best pros and that is where the interest lies. Much like the foreign fans preferring to watch two Koreans rather than two foreigners (I apologize if I generalized).
I never understood this line of reasoning. It's one thing to catch up to the existing level of play, it's a whole other thing to transcend it and make break thrus etc.
Beating the current GSL champ who has played for 2 years to your 3 1/2 months is more of "surpassing" then it is catching up. Also, we know how hard it was to become a Brood War pro and why most of the ESF and current SC2 pros did not make a big splash in the scene. It took a load of skill. We know the potential of Brood War pros which is why people make the comparison.
The reason, or at least one of the major reasons, that a lot of the ESF players were not able to break out in BW but became the best players in SC2 was because if you were not already an A team player in BW then you had to spend so much of your time helping the best players on your team stay the best and not a lot of time on improving yourself. when players switched to SC2 they were able to focus on themselves and as a result they were able to reach their potential something that was not possible in BW. remember that July advised MC, they were team mates in BW, to change to SC2 because he would have better opportunities to be successful because by that time BW had become too codified.
Ok. So, what you are telling me is that the current SC2 players have reached their potential and that Kespa players after 3 1/2 months while playing two games have already caught up to it? Sounds to me like very bad news for GOM players and that GSL should stay GOM and OSL should stay Kespa. Otherwise, GOM players will only have foreign events as a way to make a profit. July probably encouraged MC to switch to SC2 because he was not doing well on BW with a 1-9 record. Also, I do not understand the bolded quote. I would think that training with the best player on the team would well...make you better overall. Because you improve by playing people better then you.
There is a difference between training with someone and helping someone else train. if you are training with someone then you should improve but if you are helping some else prepare and being giving specific instructions on what to do so they can practice against it then you wont improve and it will be very demotivating.
As for KESPA players catching up I never said that and if you are inferring that KESPA players have caught up because they are able to beat GSL players then you are setting a very low standard. If they were not able to beat GSL players then that would show a huge lack of skill on their part, high level players should be able to beat any other high level player at any time in a series. As soon as we knew that they were able to make GM on the korean ladder then that meant that they were able to take games of any player in the world and if you can take a game you can take a series. but it is much to early to say they have caught up, they are good and nobody thought they wouldn't be but are equal, no not yet. but that does not mean that GSL players will never lose a series against a KESPA player
I agree with that last part. But I think Kespas streak was more then enough to confirm that they have indeed caught up to the current GOM pros. @the bolded part: Also by GSL players do you mean your current champion Seed? DRG? Gumiho? Puzzle? Leenock (who just won MLG)?
As for KESPA catching up that is opinion based so i think we can agree to disagree on that. im confused about the last part of you post and what point you are trying to make, maybe im just dense at the moment.
Why go by opinions when we have facts?...The point that I am trying to make by my last quote is that it was some of SC2s best players that lost to Kespa players. The fact that they beat some of the best SC2 had to offer is enough evidence to show that they have caught up and are on par with the current GOM pros.
Because there are no facts in this kind of argument. If you say the earth is round and i say its flat then you could say why go by opinions when there is the fact that the earth is round. but in this case it is a fact that KESPA players have beaten GSL players on that i agree. however that fact does not make that assertion that KESPA players have caught up a fact. it supports such a belief but does not definitively prove it. \
Ultimately we do not have enough of a sample size to prove definitively on way or another if the KESPA players have in fact caught up. and at the core of this problem is what this thread is about, KESPA refusing to join GSL, and ESF responding by boycotting OSL, thus not allowing us to see more games between they different players.
Just because a contract exists doesn't mean that contract is fair to both parties. KESPA has way more power then the players and uses this power to prevent the players from negotiating an equitable agreement. Acts like shutting out other leagues(like GOM) is an example of this as it limits the players ability to find other opportunites.
Lets take this back a step, ahem! Who created the Korean & StarCraft e-sports scene again? Exactly! Kespa made it a possibility for the players to even have an opportunity to begin with. I suggest that you do not be so closed minded.
Just because you give opportunities for players to be a progamer or you have made up a scene from the ground doesn't give you the rights to treat your players like shit
I enjoy this vast display of exaggeration. Assuming that you have been a pro gamer for Kespa and all, you know that they are treated like shit. Right!
Lol you obviously know nothing about kespA. Go listen to idras recent interview he used to be on a kespA team.
IdrA have became indolent.
Now he is too busy doing talk shows and probably giving interviews.
He is treated as an sensation while the community scorn upon him before in BW for losing to F91, a Chinese Zerg player who plays the game as a side job while he was practicing in an actual progaming environment in CJ.
I'm sure than 100% of people here would regard their shitty past to....be 'inhumane'.
Wow dude. You just sound bitter and stupid.
And you can't come up with a proper argument, talking about imbecility. Pff
I'll take a progamer who lived in a kespa team's house (Idra and I believe ret and nony have talked about it to) over you.
On August 27 2012 12:50 BlazeFury01 wrote: [quote]
Actually, no. The casual audience will only want to see their Kespa players. So, if it is ESF vs ESF it is unlikely that they will be watching. They want to see the best and the best were the current players of Brood War. During the WCS, the Brood War players have already demonstrated that after 3 1/2 months while simutaniously and concurrently playing two games they are already on par with GOM/ESF players. Which means later down the line they will surpass them, thus Kespa being the best pros and that is where the interest lies. Much like the foreign fans preferring to watch two Koreans rather than two foreigners (I apologize if I generalized).
I never understood this line of reasoning. It's one thing to catch up to the existing level of play, it's a whole other thing to transcend it and make break thrus etc.
Beating the current GSL champ who has played for 2 years to your 3 1/2 months is more of "surpassing" then it is catching up. Also, we know how hard it was to become a Brood War pro and why most of the ESF and current SC2 pros did not make a big splash in the scene. It took a load of skill. We know the potential of Brood War pros which is why people make the comparison.
The reason, or at least one of the major reasons, that a lot of the ESF players were not able to break out in BW but became the best players in SC2 was because if you were not already an A team player in BW then you had to spend so much of your time helping the best players on your team stay the best and not a lot of time on improving yourself. when players switched to SC2 they were able to focus on themselves and as a result they were able to reach their potential something that was not possible in BW. remember that July advised MC, they were team mates in BW, to change to SC2 because he would have better opportunities to be successful because by that time BW had become too codified.
Ok. So, what you are telling me is that the current SC2 players have reached their potential and that Kespa players after 3 1/2 months while playing two games have already caught up to it? Sounds to me like very bad news for GOM players and that GSL should stay GOM and OSL should stay Kespa. Otherwise, GOM players will only have foreign events as a way to make a profit. July probably encouraged MC to switch to SC2 because he was not doing well on BW with a 1-9 record. Also, I do not understand the bolded quote. I would think that training with the best player on the team would well...make you better overall. Because you improve by playing people better then you.
There is a difference between training with someone and helping someone else train. if you are training with someone then you should improve but if you are helping some else prepare and being giving specific instructions on what to do so they can practice against it then you wont improve and it will be very demotivating.
As for KESPA players catching up I never said that and if you are inferring that KESPA players have caught up because they are able to beat GSL players then you are setting a very low standard. If they were not able to beat GSL players then that would show a huge lack of skill on their part, high level players should be able to beat any other high level player at any time in a series. As soon as we knew that they were able to make GM on the korean ladder then that meant that they were able to take games of any player in the world and if you can take a game you can take a series. but it is much to early to say they have caught up, they are good and nobody thought they wouldn't be but are equal, no not yet. but that does not mean that GSL players will never lose a series against a KESPA player
I agree with that last part. But I think Kespas streak was more then enough to confirm that they have indeed caught up to the current GOM pros. @the bolded part: Also by GSL players do you mean your current champion Seed? DRG? Gumiho? Puzzle? Leenock (who just won MLG)?
As for KESPA catching up that is opinion based so i think we can agree to disagree on that. im confused about the last part of you post and what point you are trying to make, maybe im just dense at the moment.
Why go by opinions when we have facts?...The point that I am trying to make by my last quote is that it was some of SC2s best players that lost to Kespa players. The fact that they beat some of the best SC2 had to offer is enough evidence to show that they have caught up and are on par with the current GOM pros.
God damn, you're dumb. You don't realize that you're taking a really, REALLY small sample and extrapolating greatly. That doesn't work. If they CONTINUE to beat players like Seed and Teaja, then maybe you'll be right. But right now there simply isn't sufficient evidence for you to truly back up your claim. A few BO3 series do not an entire scene define.
That "small" sample included a 10-0 winstreak from some of the best players SC2 had to offer. I know you might be a little butt hurt, but you need to face reality.
On August 27 2012 12:55 BlazeFury01 wrote: [quote]
Lets take this back a step, ahem! Who created the Korean & StarCraft e-sports scene again? Exactly! Kespa made it a possibility for the players to even have an opportunity to begin with. I suggest that you do not be so closed minded.
Just because you give opportunities for players to be a progamer or you have made up a scene from the ground doesn't give you the rights to treat your players like shit
I enjoy this vast display of exaggeration. Assuming that you have been a pro gamer for Kespa and all, you know that they are treated like shit. Right!
Lol you obviously know nothing about kespA. Go listen to idras recent interview he used to be on a kespA team.
IdrA have became indolent.
Now he is too busy doing talk shows and probably giving interviews.
He is treated as an sensation while the community scorn upon him before in BW for losing to F91, a Chinese Zerg player who plays the game as a side job while he was practicing in an actual progaming environment in CJ.
I'm sure than 100% of people here would regard their shitty past to....be 'inhumane'.
Wow dude. You just sound bitter and stupid.
And you can't come up with a proper argument, talking about imbecility. Pff
I'll take a progamer who lived in a kespa team's house (Idra and I believe ret and nony have talked about it to) over you.
On August 27 2012 12:55 S_SienZ wrote: [quote] I never understood this line of reasoning. It's one thing to catch up to the existing level of play, it's a whole other thing to transcend it and make break thrus etc.
Beating the current GSL champ who has played for 2 years to your 3 1/2 months is more of "surpassing" then it is catching up.
Uh, I call bullshit. One series doesn't mean anything. Just because Naama beat MVP once doesn't make him the better player.
OH, and you said that foreigners would rather watch two Koreans than two foreigners... that's just false. Or at least, it is for me and the people I know who watch sc2. Most of us would prefer to watch Foreigners VS Koreans. That's where the fun is.
Naama has also played for 2 years. Roro hasn't and MVP wasn't the most current GSL champ, Seed is.
I would like to say who created and organized that builds that roro used? And who were been watched and researched by formal BW players? I mean... It is the matter of many unstable factors.
Polt started his gaming carrear as killing time and amature, meanwhile emperor played RTS game more than 10 years and even he sarted SC2 way faster. But we don't blame him by having less result than polt
Also don't you remember MVP fall down into code A with lossing 5 straght matches by bunch of nubs?
Come on man, that's like saying as long as you 3 Hatch Mutalisk vs 1 Rax CC expand, you'll win. The skill difference should still be there. And GOM guys should be winning 100% in a best of X series. No questions asked.
For that to happen the KESPA players would have to be terrible, any high level player can take a series of any other high level player, if they cant then they cannot be considered a high level player.
That's the point though. They are supposedly to be 'different' games. And thus the skill set should be 'different'. If not, then you are pretty much proving the 'elephant theory' right. And if that's right, that means Kespa's skill level > Gom's. And by going to that pattern, the Kespa guys would, sooner or later take over the competitions anyways.
I like this discussion. I think that right now kespa is impressing with their training regimen getting them up to date on builds as well as some nice competitive preparation vs gom players. However, ive heard it said that sc2 players become stylistic. That is to say, they can start being prepared for. What i worry for is that someone like roro may become as defeatable as leenock. You just have to do it right
Edit: ironically, for the elephant theory to be proven, kespa should agree to esf requests
It was already proven with WCS. Regardless of how many times they prove themselves, there will always be a "Well, in order to prove it they have to...". Keep in mind, they didn't just take sets, they went on a rather vast streak.
That I won't take. The koreans did do some impressive things in wcs. But I think for the elephant theory to be proven, teo conditions have to be fulfilled 1. Get up to pace easily(done) 2. Outmatch the competition.(to be perpetuated through more competition)
Besides, wcs can have a weird way of giving results. I would be dissapoint if leenock and drg lost to kespa players if it wasnt for both of those matchups being zvz, where they arent as reliable(especially leenock).
It's too early to say that theyll always have to prove themselves imho
On August 27 2012 12:55 S_SienZ wrote: [quote] I never understood this line of reasoning. It's one thing to catch up to the existing level of play, it's a whole other thing to transcend it and make break thrus etc.
Beating the current GSL champ who has played for 2 years to your 3 1/2 months is more of "surpassing" then it is catching up. Also, we know how hard it was to become a Brood War pro and why most of the ESF and current SC2 pros did not make a big splash in the scene. It took a load of skill. We know the potential of Brood War pros which is why people make the comparison.
The reason, or at least one of the major reasons, that a lot of the ESF players were not able to break out in BW but became the best players in SC2 was because if you were not already an A team player in BW then you had to spend so much of your time helping the best players on your team stay the best and not a lot of time on improving yourself. when players switched to SC2 they were able to focus on themselves and as a result they were able to reach their potential something that was not possible in BW. remember that July advised MC, they were team mates in BW, to change to SC2 because he would have better opportunities to be successful because by that time BW had become too codified.
Ok. So, what you are telling me is that the current SC2 players have reached their potential and that Kespa players after 3 1/2 months while playing two games have already caught up to it? Sounds to me like very bad news for GOM players and that GSL should stay GOM and OSL should stay Kespa. Otherwise, GOM players will only have foreign events as a way to make a profit. July probably encouraged MC to switch to SC2 because he was not doing well on BW with a 1-9 record. Also, I do not understand the bolded quote. I would think that training with the best player on the team would well...make you better overall. Because you improve by playing people better then you.
There is a difference between training with someone and helping someone else train. if you are training with someone then you should improve but if you are helping some else prepare and being giving specific instructions on what to do so they can practice against it then you wont improve and it will be very demotivating.
As for KESPA players catching up I never said that and if you are inferring that KESPA players have caught up because they are able to beat GSL players then you are setting a very low standard. If they were not able to beat GSL players then that would show a huge lack of skill on their part, high level players should be able to beat any other high level player at any time in a series. As soon as we knew that they were able to make GM on the korean ladder then that meant that they were able to take games of any player in the world and if you can take a game you can take a series. but it is much to early to say they have caught up, they are good and nobody thought they wouldn't be but are equal, no not yet. but that does not mean that GSL players will never lose a series against a KESPA player
I agree with that last part. But I think Kespas streak was more then enough to confirm that they have indeed caught up to the current GOM pros. @the bolded part: Also by GSL players do you mean your current champion Seed? DRG? Gumiho? Puzzle? Leenock (who just won MLG)?
As for KESPA catching up that is opinion based so i think we can agree to disagree on that. im confused about the last part of you post and what point you are trying to make, maybe im just dense at the moment.
Why go by opinions when we have facts?...The point that I am trying to make by my last quote is that it was some of SC2s best players that lost to Kespa players. The fact that they beat some of the best SC2 had to offer is enough evidence to show that they have caught up and are on par with the current GOM pros.
God damn, you're dumb. You don't realize that you're taking a really, REALLY small sample and extrapolating greatly. That doesn't work. If they CONTINUE to beat players like Seed and Teaja, then maybe you'll be right. But right now there simply isn't sufficient evidence for you to truly back up your claim. A few BO3 series do not an entire scene define.
That "small" sample included a 10-0 winstreak from some of the best players SC2 had to offer. I know you might be a little butt hurt, but you need to face reality.
I don't get how people are now lambasting KeSPA for keeping their players in "inhumane" conditions .. firstly, it wasn't KeSPA that was doing it, it was the teams. And each team had a different minimum practice regiment, lowest being 8-10 hours I believe. Progaming BW was insanely competitive, and those who slacked off fell behind very quickly.
And they weren't doing that because the team management was like "hurrr hurr I shall make these kids suffer muhahaha", but rather that's what was REQUIRED in order to even hope to catch up with the current A-teamers of the teams. Most A-teamers took around 2-3 years on average to get to that level, with the more talented ones achieving it within a year.
KeSPA teams provided free bedding, meals, practice and exercise facilities, maid, etc etc. KeSPA progamers didn't have to worry about jack shit and could focus all of their energies on improving and becoming the best .. it's not something they did involuntarily, they wanted to do it and KeSPA gave them the opportunity to do so.
On August 27 2012 12:57 BlazeFury01 wrote: [quote]
Beating the current GSL champ who has played for 2 years to your 3 1/2 months is more of "surpassing" then it is catching up. Also, we know how hard it was to become a Brood War pro and why most of the ESF and current SC2 pros did not make a big splash in the scene. It took a load of skill. We know the potential of Brood War pros which is why people make the comparison.
The reason, or at least one of the major reasons, that a lot of the ESF players were not able to break out in BW but became the best players in SC2 was because if you were not already an A team player in BW then you had to spend so much of your time helping the best players on your team stay the best and not a lot of time on improving yourself. when players switched to SC2 they were able to focus on themselves and as a result they were able to reach their potential something that was not possible in BW. remember that July advised MC, they were team mates in BW, to change to SC2 because he would have better opportunities to be successful because by that time BW had become too codified.
Ok. So, what you are telling me is that the current SC2 players have reached their potential and that Kespa players after 3 1/2 months while playing two games have already caught up to it? Sounds to me like very bad news for GOM players and that GSL should stay GOM and OSL should stay Kespa. Otherwise, GOM players will only have foreign events as a way to make a profit. July probably encouraged MC to switch to SC2 because he was not doing well on BW with a 1-9 record. Also, I do not understand the bolded quote. I would think that training with the best player on the team would well...make you better overall. Because you improve by playing people better then you.
There is a difference between training with someone and helping someone else train. if you are training with someone then you should improve but if you are helping some else prepare and being giving specific instructions on what to do so they can practice against it then you wont improve and it will be very demotivating.
As for KESPA players catching up I never said that and if you are inferring that KESPA players have caught up because they are able to beat GSL players then you are setting a very low standard. If they were not able to beat GSL players then that would show a huge lack of skill on their part, high level players should be able to beat any other high level player at any time in a series. As soon as we knew that they were able to make GM on the korean ladder then that meant that they were able to take games of any player in the world and if you can take a game you can take a series. but it is much to early to say they have caught up, they are good and nobody thought they wouldn't be but are equal, no not yet. but that does not mean that GSL players will never lose a series against a KESPA player
I agree with that last part. But I think Kespas streak was more then enough to confirm that they have indeed caught up to the current GOM pros. @the bolded part: Also by GSL players do you mean your current champion Seed? DRG? Gumiho? Puzzle? Leenock (who just won MLG)?
As for KESPA catching up that is opinion based so i think we can agree to disagree on that. im confused about the last part of you post and what point you are trying to make, maybe im just dense at the moment.
Why go by opinions when we have facts?...The point that I am trying to make by my last quote is that it was some of SC2s best players that lost to Kespa players. The fact that they beat some of the best SC2 had to offer is enough evidence to show that they have caught up and are on par with the current GOM pros.
God damn, you're dumb. You don't realize that you're taking a really, REALLY small sample and extrapolating greatly. That doesn't work. If they CONTINUE to beat players like Seed and Teaja, then maybe you'll be right. But right now there simply isn't sufficient evidence for you to truly back up your claim. A few BO3 series do not an entire scene define.
That "small" sample included a 10-0 winstreak from some of the best players SC2 had to offer. I know you might be a little butt hurt, but you need to face reality.
Reality pun intended or no?
I was actually thinking about putting no pun intended but then decided not to.
The Elephant theory was: "Any number of B-teamers can come in and dominate SC2 in no time at all." <-- Yeah, no.
I don't know why people are so fucking surprised that some KeSPA pros haven proven talented at the game. Some are good. Some are bad. Many of them are already practicing SC2 80:20 compared to BW due to PL being weighted towards SC2 due to the ace match. Whhhhhyyyyy is this such big news? For every good KeSPA pro, you likewise have a horrible KeSPA pro. + Show Spoiler +
If in doubt, just go look at Bisu. </3
Like, hey, for every good amateur player with little competitive BW background, you have a likewise horrible amateur player with little competitive BW background! How absolutely astonishing!
Now, can we stop turning this thread into another shitty BW vs. SC2 battleground? I'm surprised Blizzard hasn't issued a statement yet with the tourneys approaching.
On August 27 2012 12:55 S_SienZ wrote: [quote] I never understood this line of reasoning. It's one thing to catch up to the existing level of play, it's a whole other thing to transcend it and make break thrus etc.
Beating the current GSL champ who has played for 2 years to your 3 1/2 months is more of "surpassing" then it is catching up. Also, we know how hard it was to become a Brood War pro and why most of the ESF and current SC2 pros did not make a big splash in the scene. It took a load of skill. We know the potential of Brood War pros which is why people make the comparison.
The reason, or at least one of the major reasons, that a lot of the ESF players were not able to break out in BW but became the best players in SC2 was because if you were not already an A team player in BW then you had to spend so much of your time helping the best players on your team stay the best and not a lot of time on improving yourself. when players switched to SC2 they were able to focus on themselves and as a result they were able to reach their potential something that was not possible in BW. remember that July advised MC, they were team mates in BW, to change to SC2 because he would have better opportunities to be successful because by that time BW had become too codified.
Ok. So, what you are telling me is that the current SC2 players have reached their potential and that Kespa players after 3 1/2 months while playing two games have already caught up to it? Sounds to me like very bad news for GOM players and that GSL should stay GOM and OSL should stay Kespa. Otherwise, GOM players will only have foreign events as a way to make a profit. July probably encouraged MC to switch to SC2 because he was not doing well on BW with a 1-9 record. Also, I do not understand the bolded quote. I would think that training with the best player on the team would well...make you better overall. Because you improve by playing people better then you.
There is a difference between training with someone and helping someone else train. if you are training with someone then you should improve but if you are helping some else prepare and being giving specific instructions on what to do so they can practice against it then you wont improve and it will be very demotivating.
As for KESPA players catching up I never said that and if you are inferring that KESPA players have caught up because they are able to beat GSL players then you are setting a very low standard. If they were not able to beat GSL players then that would show a huge lack of skill on their part, high level players should be able to beat any other high level player at any time in a series. As soon as we knew that they were able to make GM on the korean ladder then that meant that they were able to take games of any player in the world and if you can take a game you can take a series. but it is much to early to say they have caught up, they are good and nobody thought they wouldn't be but are equal, no not yet. but that does not mean that GSL players will never lose a series against a KESPA player
I agree with that last part. But I think Kespas streak was more then enough to confirm that they have indeed caught up to the current GOM pros. @the bolded part: Also by GSL players do you mean your current champion Seed? DRG? Gumiho? Puzzle? Leenock (who just won MLG)?
As for KESPA catching up that is opinion based so i think we can agree to disagree on that. im confused about the last part of you post and what point you are trying to make, maybe im just dense at the moment.
Why go by opinions when we have facts?...The point that I am trying to make by my last quote is that it was some of SC2s best players that lost to Kespa players. The fact that they beat some of the best SC2 had to offer is enough evidence to show that they have caught up and are on par with the current GOM pros.
God damn, you're dumb. You don't realize that you're taking a really, REALLY small sample and extrapolating greatly. That doesn't work. If they CONTINUE to beat players like Seed and Teaja, then maybe you'll be right. But right now there simply isn't sufficient evidence for you to truly back up your claim. A few BO3 series do not an entire scene define.
That "small" sample included a 10-0 winstreak from some of the best players SC2 had to offer. I know you might be a little butt hurt, but you need to face reality.
That small sample does not represent all of KeSPA though. Remember how at the beginning many of their players were terrible and you had players like Soulkey who were apparently already GM. This can easily be the situation here, just because a select amount of players can do well against top pros doesn't mean the entire scene is already on par with the GOM players. I think a decent amount of KeSPA players are quite good compared to GOM pros, but I don't think KeSPA as a whole has caught up.
Just because you give opportunities for players to be a progamer or you have made up a scene from the ground doesn't give you the rights to treat your players like shit
I enjoy this vast display of exaggeration. Assuming that you have been a pro gamer for Kespa and all, you know that they are treated like shit. Right!
Lol you obviously know nothing about kespA. Go listen to idras recent interview he used to be on a kespA team.
IdrA have became indolent.
Now he is too busy doing talk shows and probably giving interviews.
He is treated as an sensation while the community scorn upon him before in BW for losing to F91, a Chinese Zerg player who plays the game as a side job while he was practicing in an actual progaming environment in CJ.
I'm sure than 100% of people here would regard their shitty past to....be 'inhumane'.
Wow dude. You just sound bitter and stupid.
And you can't come up with a proper argument, talking about imbecility. Pff
I'll take a progamer who lived in a kespa team's house (Idra and I believe ret and nony have talked about it to) over you.
On August 27 2012 12:57 BlazeFury01 wrote: [quote]
Beating the current GSL champ who has played for 2 years to your 3 1/2 months is more of "surpassing" then it is catching up. Also, we know how hard it was to become a Brood War pro and why most of the ESF and current SC2 pros did not make a big splash in the scene. It took a load of skill. We know the potential of Brood War pros which is why people make the comparison.
The reason, or at least one of the major reasons, that a lot of the ESF players were not able to break out in BW but became the best players in SC2 was because if you were not already an A team player in BW then you had to spend so much of your time helping the best players on your team stay the best and not a lot of time on improving yourself. when players switched to SC2 they were able to focus on themselves and as a result they were able to reach their potential something that was not possible in BW. remember that July advised MC, they were team mates in BW, to change to SC2 because he would have better opportunities to be successful because by that time BW had become too codified.
Ok. So, what you are telling me is that the current SC2 players have reached their potential and that Kespa players after 3 1/2 months while playing two games have already caught up to it? Sounds to me like very bad news for GOM players and that GSL should stay GOM and OSL should stay Kespa. Otherwise, GOM players will only have foreign events as a way to make a profit. July probably encouraged MC to switch to SC2 because he was not doing well on BW with a 1-9 record. Also, I do not understand the bolded quote. I would think that training with the best player on the team would well...make you better overall. Because you improve by playing people better then you.
There is a difference between training with someone and helping someone else train. if you are training with someone then you should improve but if you are helping some else prepare and being giving specific instructions on what to do so they can practice against it then you wont improve and it will be very demotivating.
As for KESPA players catching up I never said that and if you are inferring that KESPA players have caught up because they are able to beat GSL players then you are setting a very low standard. If they were not able to beat GSL players then that would show a huge lack of skill on their part, high level players should be able to beat any other high level player at any time in a series. As soon as we knew that they were able to make GM on the korean ladder then that meant that they were able to take games of any player in the world and if you can take a game you can take a series. but it is much to early to say they have caught up, they are good and nobody thought they wouldn't be but are equal, no not yet. but that does not mean that GSL players will never lose a series against a KESPA player
I agree with that last part. But I think Kespas streak was more then enough to confirm that they have indeed caught up to the current GOM pros. @the bolded part: Also by GSL players do you mean your current champion Seed? DRG? Gumiho? Puzzle? Leenock (who just won MLG)?
As for KESPA catching up that is opinion based so i think we can agree to disagree on that. im confused about the last part of you post and what point you are trying to make, maybe im just dense at the moment.
Why go by opinions when we have facts?...The point that I am trying to make by my last quote is that it was some of SC2s best players that lost to Kespa players. The fact that they beat some of the best SC2 had to offer is enough evidence to show that they have caught up and are on par with the current GOM pros.
God damn, you're dumb. You don't realize that you're taking a really, REALLY small sample and extrapolating greatly. That doesn't work. If they CONTINUE to beat players like Seed and Teaja, then maybe you'll be right. But right now there simply isn't sufficient evidence for you to truly back up your claim. A few BO3 series do not an entire scene define.
That "small" sample included a 10-0 winstreak from some of the best players SC2 had to offer. I know you might be a little butt hurt, but you need to face reality.
That small sample does not represent all of KeSPA though. Remember how at the beginning many of their players were terrible and you had players like Soulkey who were apparently already GM. This can easily be the situation here, just because a select amount of players can do well against top pros doesn't mean the entire scene is already on par with the GOM players. I think a decent amount of KeSPA players are quite good compared to GOM pros, but I don't think KeSPA as a whole has caught up.
Yes, but those same players are losing games in Pro League too.
Just because you give opportunities for players to be a progamer or you have made up a scene from the ground doesn't give you the rights to treat your players like shit
I enjoy this vast display of exaggeration. Assuming that you have been a pro gamer for Kespa and all, you know that they are treated like shit. Right!
Lol you obviously know nothing about kespA. Go listen to idras recent interview he used to be on a kespA team.
IdrA have became indolent.
Now he is too busy doing talk shows and probably giving interviews.
He is treated as an sensation while the community scorn upon him before in BW for losing to F91, a Chinese Zerg player who plays the game as a side job while he was practicing in an actual progaming environment in CJ.
I'm sure than 100% of people here would regard their shitty past to....be 'inhumane'.
Wow dude. You just sound bitter and stupid.
And you can't come up with a proper argument, talking about imbecility. Pff
I'll take a progamer who lived in a kespa team's house (Idra and I believe ret and nony have talked about it to) over you.
On August 27 2012 13:04 BlazeFury01 wrote: [quote]
I enjoy this vast display of exaggeration. Assuming that you have been a pro gamer for Kespa and all, you know that they are treated like shit. Right!
Lol you obviously know nothing about kespA. Go listen to idras recent interview he used to be on a kespA team.
IdrA have became indolent.
Now he is too busy doing talk shows and probably giving interviews.
He is treated as an sensation while the community scorn upon him before in BW for losing to F91, a Chinese Zerg player who plays the game as a side job while he was practicing in an actual progaming environment in CJ.
I'm sure than 100% of people here would regard their shitty past to....be 'inhumane'.
Wow dude. You just sound bitter and stupid.
And you can't come up with a proper argument, talking about imbecility. Pff
I'll take a progamer who lived in a kespa team's house (Idra and I believe ret and nony have talked about it to) over you.
On August 27 2012 13:09 coloursheep wrote: [quote]
The reason, or at least one of the major reasons, that a lot of the ESF players were not able to break out in BW but became the best players in SC2 was because if you were not already an A team player in BW then you had to spend so much of your time helping the best players on your team stay the best and not a lot of time on improving yourself. when players switched to SC2 they were able to focus on themselves and as a result they were able to reach their potential something that was not possible in BW. remember that July advised MC, they were team mates in BW, to change to SC2 because he would have better opportunities to be successful because by that time BW had become too codified.
Ok. So, what you are telling me is that the current SC2 players have reached their potential and that Kespa players after 3 1/2 months while playing two games have already caught up to it? Sounds to me like very bad news for GOM players and that GSL should stay GOM and OSL should stay Kespa. Otherwise, GOM players will only have foreign events as a way to make a profit. July probably encouraged MC to switch to SC2 because he was not doing well on BW with a 1-9 record. Also, I do not understand the bolded quote. I would think that training with the best player on the team would well...make you better overall. Because you improve by playing people better then you.
There is a difference between training with someone and helping someone else train. if you are training with someone then you should improve but if you are helping some else prepare and being giving specific instructions on what to do so they can practice against it then you wont improve and it will be very demotivating.
As for KESPA players catching up I never said that and if you are inferring that KESPA players have caught up because they are able to beat GSL players then you are setting a very low standard. If they were not able to beat GSL players then that would show a huge lack of skill on their part, high level players should be able to beat any other high level player at any time in a series. As soon as we knew that they were able to make GM on the korean ladder then that meant that they were able to take games of any player in the world and if you can take a game you can take a series. but it is much to early to say they have caught up, they are good and nobody thought they wouldn't be but are equal, no not yet. but that does not mean that GSL players will never lose a series against a KESPA player
I agree with that last part. But I think Kespas streak was more then enough to confirm that they have indeed caught up to the current GOM pros. @the bolded part: Also by GSL players do you mean your current champion Seed? DRG? Gumiho? Puzzle? Leenock (who just won MLG)?
As for KESPA catching up that is opinion based so i think we can agree to disagree on that. im confused about the last part of you post and what point you are trying to make, maybe im just dense at the moment.
Why go by opinions when we have facts?...The point that I am trying to make by my last quote is that it was some of SC2s best players that lost to Kespa players. The fact that they beat some of the best SC2 had to offer is enough evidence to show that they have caught up and are on par with the current GOM pros.
God damn, you're dumb. You don't realize that you're taking a really, REALLY small sample and extrapolating greatly. That doesn't work. If they CONTINUE to beat players like Seed and Teaja, then maybe you'll be right. But right now there simply isn't sufficient evidence for you to truly back up your claim. A few BO3 series do not an entire scene define.
That "small" sample included a 10-0 winstreak from some of the best players SC2 had to offer. I know you might be a little butt hurt, but you need to face reality.
That small sample does not represent all of KeSPA though. Remember how at the beginning many of their players were terrible and you had players like Soulkey who were apparently already GM. This can easily be the situation here, just because a select amount of players can do well against top pros doesn't mean the entire scene is already on par with the GOM players. I think a decent amount of KeSPA players are quite good compared to GOM pros, but I don't think KeSPA as a whole has caught up.
Yes, but those same players are losing games in Pro League too.
And all players win 100% of their games since when...?
EPT
