On August 27 2012 12:03 Scarecrow wrote: Best chance for an ESF player to win an OSL and they're just resorting to blackmail. Sad to see. Kespa had legit reasons for delaying one season (preparation time; schedule; still in partial switch from BW plus it has little effect on GSL having the elephants absent from Code B/A/S for 1 more season) whereas ESF is screwing over Kespa basically out of spite. If anything not having Kespa players in GSL gives the ESF players more chance of prizemoney/success for at least another season.
I'm not sure but you seem to contradict yourself a little bit. You're basically saying that an ESF have lots of chance to win prize money in OSL and implying that Kespa players aren't up to par with them yet, but your last sentence, you're like saying, ''Oh well, ESF players are lucky that there's not any Kespa player for the next season yet'', thus implying that Kespa players are up to par or better, lol. I might be not understanding, but it seems like bias to me.
And, why Kespa should decide for the players? Why not just let players choose if they want to enter in the GSL? Kespa players have expressed their desires to qualify for the GSL(like Roro), why not let them?
I always thought this was because the Kespa players are under a Contract.
Just because a contract exists doesn't mean that contract is fair to both parties. KESPA has way more power then the players and uses this power to prevent the players from negotiating an equitable agreement. Acts like shutting out other leagues(like GOM) is an example of this as it limits the players ability to find other opportunites.
Lets take this back a step, ahem! Who created the Korean & StarCraft e-sports scene again? Exactly! Kespa made it a possibility for the players to even have an opportunity to begin with. I suggest that you do not be so closed minded.
Just because you give opportunities for players to be a progamer or you have made up a scene from the ground doesn't give you the rights to treat your players like shit
I enjoy this vast display of exaggeration. Assuming that you have been a pro gamer for Kespa and all, you know that they are treated like shit. Right!
Lol you obviously know nothing about kespA. Go listen to idras recent interview he used to be on a kespA team.
IdrA have became indolent.
Now he is too busy doing talk shows and probably giving interviews.
He is treated as an sensation while the community scorn upon him before in BW for losing to F91, a Chinese Zerg player who plays the game as a side job while he was practicing in an actual progaming environment in CJ.
I'm sure than 100% of people here would regard their shitty past to....be 'inhumane'.
Wow dude. You just sound bitter and stupid.
And you can't come up with a proper argument, talking about imbecility. Pff
On August 27 2012 10:52 iamho wrote: KeSPA has little to lose here. Keep in mind most people who watch OSL aren't gamers watching from the Internet, they're fangirls and casual viewers who tune in on TV during dinner or whatever. They won't suddenly stop watching just because some guys they never heard of (the ESF players) aren't going to be playing. KeSPA will make revenue from TV ads and sponsors, same as always. The only people they are losing are Western SC2 fans, which I imagine are a much less valuable demographic since they only watch on online streams, and the OSL doesn't charge money for streams.
Yes, theorically. But remember, OSL and TV are also free advertisement for ESF. Sure, people can only watch Kespa's stuff on TV right now, but because there're 2 competitive parties, sooner or later, if SC2 does well on TV, one random TV station will pick up ESF and GomTV leagues to pull viewers.
That is not exactly true. If that were the case, Brood War in it's prime would have been featured on more television stations. Brood War was featured on two stations: MBC and OGN. MBC is now a music station and does not feature games anymore whereas OGN has agreements with Kespa. So, GOM actually being able to broadcast on television is very unlikely.
But we did have 2 stations, right? That's the whole point of it. Even if ESF players don't have TV exposure, the fact that there's a rivalry between 2 different party will make casual audience aware of the existence of the other one. So it's basically free advertisement for ESF. Eventually if the demand allows it and the price is right, it will happen.
Actually, no. The casual audience will only want to see their Kespa players. So, if it is ESF vs ESF it is unlikely that they will be watching. They want to see the best and the best were the current players of Brood War. During the WCS, the Brood War players have already demonstrated that after 3 1/2 months while simutaniously and concurrently playing two games they are already on par with GOM/ESF players. Which means later down the line they will surpass them, thus Kespa being the best pros and that is where the interest lies. Much like the foreign fans preferring to watch two Koreans rather than two foreigners (I apologize if I generalized).
I never understood this line of reasoning. It's one thing to catch up to the existing level of play, it's a whole other thing to transcend it and make break thrus etc.
Beating the current GSL champ who has played for 2 years to your 3 1/2 months is more of "surpassing" then it is catching up.
Uh, I call bullshit. One series doesn't mean anything. Just because Naama beat MVP once doesn't make him the better player.
OH, and you said that foreigners would rather watch two Koreans than two foreigners... that's just false. Or at least, it is for me and the people I know who watch sc2. Most of us would prefer to watch Foreigners VS Koreans. That's where the fun is.
Naama has also played for 2 years. Roro hasn't and MVP wasn't the most current GSL champ, Seed is.
I would like to say who created and organized that builds that roro used? And who were been watched and researched by formal BW players? I mean... It is the matter of many unstable factors.
Polt started his gaming carrear as killing time and amature, meanwhile emperor played RTS game more than 10 years and even he sarted SC2 way faster. But we don't blame him by having less result than polt
Also don't you remember MVP fall down into code A with lossing 5 straght matches by bunch of nubs?
On August 27 2012 10:52 iamho wrote: KeSPA has little to lose here. Keep in mind most people who watch OSL aren't gamers watching from the Internet, they're fangirls and casual viewers who tune in on TV during dinner or whatever. They won't suddenly stop watching just because some guys they never heard of (the ESF players) aren't going to be playing. KeSPA will make revenue from TV ads and sponsors, same as always. The only people they are losing are Western SC2 fans, which I imagine are a much less valuable demographic since they only watch on online streams, and the OSL doesn't charge money for streams.
Yes, theorically. But remember, OSL and TV are also free advertisement for ESF. Sure, people can only watch Kespa's stuff on TV right now, but because there're 2 competitive parties, sooner or later, if SC2 does well on TV, one random TV station will pick up ESF and GomTV leagues to pull viewers.
That is not exactly true. If that were the case, Brood War in it's prime would have been featured on more television stations. Brood War was featured on two stations: MBC and OGN. MBC is now a music station and does not feature games anymore whereas OGN has agreements with Kespa. So, GOM actually being able to broadcast on television is very unlikely.
But we did have 2 stations, right? That's the whole point of it. Even if ESF players don't have TV exposure, the fact that there's a rivalry between 2 different party will make casual audience aware of the existence of the other one. So it's basically free advertisement for ESF. Eventually if the demand allows it and the price is right, it will happen.
Actually, no. The casual audience will only want to see their Kespa players. So, if it is ESF vs ESF it is unlikely that they will be watching. They want to see the best and the best were the current players of Brood War. During the WCS, the Brood War players have already demonstrated that after 3 1/2 months while simutaniously and concurrently playing two games they are already on par with GOM/ESF players. Which means later down the line they will surpass them, thus Kespa being the best pros and that is where the interest lies. Much like the foreign fans preferring to watch two Koreans rather than two foreigners (I apologize if I generalized).
I never understood this line of reasoning. It's one thing to catch up to the existing level of play, it's a whole other thing to transcend it and make break thrus etc.
Beating the current GSL champ who has played for 2 years to your 3 1/2 months is more of "surpassing" then it is catching up. Also, we know how hard it was to become a Brood War pro and why most of the ESF and current SC2 pros did not make a big splash in the scene. It took a load of skill. We know the potential of Brood War pros which is why people make the comparison.
The reason, or at least one of the major reasons, that a lot of the ESF players were not able to break out in BW but became the best players in SC2 was because if you were not already an A team player in BW then you had to spend so much of your time helping the best players on your team stay the best and not a lot of time on improving yourself. when players switched to SC2 they were able to focus on themselves and as a result they were able to reach their potential something that was not possible in BW. remember that July advised MC, they were team mates in BW, to change to SC2 because he would have better opportunities to be successful because by that time BW had become too codified.
Ok. So, what you are telling me is that the current SC2 players have reached their potential and that Kespa players after 3 1/2 months while playing two games have already caught up to it? Sounds to me like very bad news for GOM players and that GSL should stay GOM and OSL should stay Kespa. Otherwise, GOM players will only have foreign events as a way to make a profit. July probably encouraged MC to switch to SC2 because he was not doing well on BW with a 1-9 record. Also, I do not understand the bolded quote. I would think that training with the best player on the team would well...make you better overall. Because you improve by playing people better then you.
There is a difference between training with someone and helping someone else train. if you are training with someone then you should improve but if you are helping some else prepare and being giving specific instructions on what to do so they can practice against it then you wont improve and it will be very demotivating.
As for KESPA players catching up I never said that and if you are inferring that KESPA players have caught up because they are able to beat GSL players then you are setting a very low standard. If they were not able to beat GSL players then that would show a huge lack of skill on their part, high level players should be able to beat any other high level player at any time in a series. As soon as we knew that they were able to make GM on the korean ladder then that meant that they were able to take games of any player in the world and if you can take a game you can take a series. but it is much to early to say they have caught up, they are good and nobody thought they wouldn't be but are equal, no not yet. but that does not mean that GSL players will never lose a series against a KESPA player
On August 27 2012 10:52 iamho wrote: KeSPA has little to lose here. Keep in mind most people who watch OSL aren't gamers watching from the Internet, they're fangirls and casual viewers who tune in on TV during dinner or whatever. They won't suddenly stop watching just because some guys they never heard of (the ESF players) aren't going to be playing. KeSPA will make revenue from TV ads and sponsors, same as always. The only people they are losing are Western SC2 fans, which I imagine are a much less valuable demographic since they only watch on online streams, and the OSL doesn't charge money for streams.
Yes, theorically. But remember, OSL and TV are also free advertisement for ESF. Sure, people can only watch Kespa's stuff on TV right now, but because there're 2 competitive parties, sooner or later, if SC2 does well on TV, one random TV station will pick up ESF and GomTV leagues to pull viewers.
That is not exactly true. If that were the case, Brood War in it's prime would have been featured on more television stations. Brood War was featured on two stations: MBC and OGN. MBC is now a music station and does not feature games anymore whereas OGN has agreements with Kespa. So, GOM actually being able to broadcast on television is very unlikely.
But we did have 2 stations, right? That's the whole point of it. Even if ESF players don't have TV exposure, the fact that there's a rivalry between 2 different party will make casual audience aware of the existence of the other one. So it's basically free advertisement for ESF. Eventually if the demand allows it and the price is right, it will happen.
Actually, no. The casual audience will only want to see their Kespa players. So, if it is ESF vs ESF it is unlikely that they will be watching. They want to see the best and the best were the current players of Brood War. During the WCS, the Brood War players have already demonstrated that after 3 1/2 months while simutaniously and concurrently playing two games they are already on par with GOM/ESF players. Which means later down the line they will surpass them, thus Kespa being the best pros and that is where the interest lies. Much like the foreign fans preferring to watch two Koreans rather than two foreigners (I apologize if I generalized).
I never understood this line of reasoning. It's one thing to catch up to the existing level of play, it's a whole other thing to transcend it and make break thrus etc.
Beating the current GSL champ who has played for 2 years to your 3 1/2 months is more of "surpassing" then it is catching up.
Uh, I call bullshit. One series doesn't mean anything. Just because Naama beat MVP once doesn't make him the better player.
OH, and you said that foreigners would rather watch two Koreans than two foreigners... that's just false. Or at least, it is for me and the people I know who watch sc2. Most of us would prefer to watch Foreigners VS Koreans. That's where the fun is.
Naama has also played for 2 years. Roro hasn't and MVP wasn't the most current GSL champ, Seed is.
I would like to say who created and organized that builds that roro used? And who were been watched and researched by formal BW players? I mean... It is the matter of many unstable factors.
Polt started his gaming carrear as killing time and amature, meanwhile emperor played RTS game more than 10 years and even he sarted SC2 way faster. But we don't blame him by having less result than polt
Also don't you remember MVP fall down into code A with lossing 5 straght matches by bunch of nubs?
On August 27 2012 10:52 iamho wrote: KeSPA has little to lose here. Keep in mind most people who watch OSL aren't gamers watching from the Internet, they're fangirls and casual viewers who tune in on TV during dinner or whatever. They won't suddenly stop watching just because some guys they never heard of (the ESF players) aren't going to be playing. KeSPA will make revenue from TV ads and sponsors, same as always. The only people they are losing are Western SC2 fans, which I imagine are a much less valuable demographic since they only watch on online streams, and the OSL doesn't charge money for streams.
Yes, theorically. But remember, OSL and TV are also free advertisement for ESF. Sure, people can only watch Kespa's stuff on TV right now, but because there're 2 competitive parties, sooner or later, if SC2 does well on TV, one random TV station will pick up ESF and GomTV leagues to pull viewers.
That is not exactly true. If that were the case, Brood War in it's prime would have been featured on more television stations. Brood War was featured on two stations: MBC and OGN. MBC is now a music station and does not feature games anymore whereas OGN has agreements with Kespa. So, GOM actually being able to broadcast on television is very unlikely.
But we did have 2 stations, right? That's the whole point of it. Even if ESF players don't have TV exposure, the fact that there's a rivalry between 2 different party will make casual audience aware of the existence of the other one. So it's basically free advertisement for ESF. Eventually if the demand allows it and the price is right, it will happen.
Actually, no. The casual audience will only want to see their Kespa players. So, if it is ESF vs ESF it is unlikely that they will be watching. They want to see the best and the best were the current players of Brood War. During the WCS, the Brood War players have already demonstrated that after 3 1/2 months while simutaniously and concurrently playing two games they are already on par with GOM/ESF players. Which means later down the line they will surpass them, thus Kespa being the best pros and that is where the interest lies. Much like the foreign fans preferring to watch two Koreans rather than two foreigners (I apologize if I generalized).
I never understood this line of reasoning. It's one thing to catch up to the existing level of play, it's a whole other thing to transcend it and make break thrus etc.
Beating the current GSL champ who has played for 2 years to your 3 1/2 months is more of "surpassing" then it is catching up.
Uh, I call bullshit. One series doesn't mean anything. Just because Naama beat MVP once doesn't make him the better player.
OH, and you said that foreigners would rather watch two Koreans than two foreigners... that's just false. Or at least, it is for me and the people I know who watch sc2. Most of us would prefer to watch Foreigners VS Koreans. That's where the fun is.
Naama has also played for 2 years. Roro hasn't and MVP wasn't the most current GSL champ, Seed is.
I would like to say who created and organized that builds that roro used? And who were been watched and researched by formal BW players? I mean... It is the matter of many unstable factors.
Polt started his gaming carrear as killing time and amature, meanwhile emperor played RTS game more than 10 years and even he sarted SC2 way faster. But we don't blame him by having less result than polt
Also don't you remember MVP fall down into code A with lossing 5 straght matches by bunch of nubs?
Come on man, that's like saying as long as you 3 Hatch Mutalisk vs 1 Rax CC expand, you'll win. The skill difference should still be there. And GOM guys should be winning 100% in a best of X series. No questions asked.
On August 27 2012 11:27 canikizu wrote: [quote] Yes, theorically. But remember, OSL and TV are also free advertisement for ESF. Sure, people can only watch Kespa's stuff on TV right now, but because there're 2 competitive parties, sooner or later, if SC2 does well on TV, one random TV station will pick up ESF and GomTV leagues to pull viewers.
That is not exactly true. If that were the case, Brood War in it's prime would have been featured on more television stations. Brood War was featured on two stations: MBC and OGN. MBC is now a music station and does not feature games anymore whereas OGN has agreements with Kespa. So, GOM actually being able to broadcast on television is very unlikely.
But we did have 2 stations, right? That's the whole point of it. Even if ESF players don't have TV exposure, the fact that there's a rivalry between 2 different party will make casual audience aware of the existence of the other one. So it's basically free advertisement for ESF. Eventually if the demand allows it and the price is right, it will happen.
Actually, no. The casual audience will only want to see their Kespa players. So, if it is ESF vs ESF it is unlikely that they will be watching. They want to see the best and the best were the current players of Brood War. During the WCS, the Brood War players have already demonstrated that after 3 1/2 months while simutaniously and concurrently playing two games they are already on par with GOM/ESF players. Which means later down the line they will surpass them, thus Kespa being the best pros and that is where the interest lies. Much like the foreign fans preferring to watch two Koreans rather than two foreigners (I apologize if I generalized).
I never understood this line of reasoning. It's one thing to catch up to the existing level of play, it's a whole other thing to transcend it and make break thrus etc.
Beating the current GSL champ who has played for 2 years to your 3 1/2 months is more of "surpassing" then it is catching up.
Uh, I call bullshit. One series doesn't mean anything. Just because Naama beat MVP once doesn't make him the better player.
OH, and you said that foreigners would rather watch two Koreans than two foreigners... that's just false. Or at least, it is for me and the people I know who watch sc2. Most of us would prefer to watch Foreigners VS Koreans. That's where the fun is.
Naama has also played for 2 years. Roro hasn't and MVP wasn't the most current GSL champ, Seed is.
I would like to say who created and organized that builds that roro used? And who were been watched and researched by formal BW players? I mean... It is the matter of many unstable factors.
Polt started his gaming carrear as killing time and amature, meanwhile emperor played RTS game more than 10 years and even he sarted SC2 way faster. But we don't blame him by having less result than polt
Also don't you remember MVP fall down into code A with lossing 5 straght matches by bunch of nubs?
Come on man, that's like saying as long as you 3 Hatch Mutalisk vs 1 Rax CC expand, you'll win. The skill difference should still be there. And GOM guys should be winning 100% in a best of X series. No questions asked.
For that to happen the KESPA players would have to be terrible, any high level player can take a series of any other high level player, if they cant then they cannot be considered a high level player.
On August 27 2012 10:52 iamho wrote: KeSPA has little to lose here. Keep in mind most people who watch OSL aren't gamers watching from the Internet, they're fangirls and casual viewers who tune in on TV during dinner or whatever. They won't suddenly stop watching just because some guys they never heard of (the ESF players) aren't going to be playing. KeSPA will make revenue from TV ads and sponsors, same as always. The only people they are losing are Western SC2 fans, which I imagine are a much less valuable demographic since they only watch on online streams, and the OSL doesn't charge money for streams.
Yes, theorically. But remember, OSL and TV are also free advertisement for ESF. Sure, people can only watch Kespa's stuff on TV right now, but because there're 2 competitive parties, sooner or later, if SC2 does well on TV, one random TV station will pick up ESF and GomTV leagues to pull viewers.
That is not exactly true. If that were the case, Brood War in it's prime would have been featured on more television stations. Brood War was featured on two stations: MBC and OGN. MBC is now a music station and does not feature games anymore whereas OGN has agreements with Kespa. So, GOM actually being able to broadcast on television is very unlikely.
But we did have 2 stations, right? That's the whole point of it. Even if ESF players don't have TV exposure, the fact that there's a rivalry between 2 different party will make casual audience aware of the existence of the other one. So it's basically free advertisement for ESF. Eventually if the demand allows it and the price is right, it will happen.
Actually, no. The casual audience will only want to see their Kespa players. So, if it is ESF vs ESF it is unlikely that they will be watching. They want to see the best and the best were the current players of Brood War. During the WCS, the Brood War players have already demonstrated that after 3 1/2 months while simutaniously and concurrently playing two games they are already on par with GOM/ESF players. Which means later down the line they will surpass them, thus Kespa being the best pros and that is where the interest lies. Much like the foreign fans preferring to watch two Koreans rather than two foreigners (I apologize if I generalized).
I never understood this line of reasoning. It's one thing to catch up to the existing level of play, it's a whole other thing to transcend it and make break thrus etc.
Beating the current GSL champ who has played for 2 years to your 3 1/2 months is more of "surpassing" then it is catching up. Also, we know how hard it was to become a Brood War pro and why most of the ESF and current SC2 pros did not make a big splash in the scene. It took a load of skill. We know the potential of Brood War pros which is why people make the comparison.
The reason, or at least one of the major reasons, that a lot of the ESF players were not able to break out in BW but became the best players in SC2 was because if you were not already an A team player in BW then you had to spend so much of your time helping the best players on your team stay the best and not a lot of time on improving yourself. when players switched to SC2 they were able to focus on themselves and as a result they were able to reach their potential something that was not possible in BW. remember that July advised MC, they were team mates in BW, to change to SC2 because he would have better opportunities to be successful because by that time BW had become too codified.
Ok. So, what you are telling me is that the current SC2 players have reached their potential and that Kespa players after 3 1/2 months while playing two games have already caught up to it? Sounds to me like very bad news for GOM players and that GSL should stay GOM and OSL should stay Kespa. Otherwise, GOM players will only have foreign events as a way to make a profit. July probably encouraged MC to switch to SC2 because he was not doing well on BW with a 1-9 record. Also, I do not understand the bolded quote. I would think that training with the best player on the team would well...make you better overall. Because you improve by playing people better then you.
There is a difference between training with someone and helping someone else train. if you are training with someone then you should improve but if you are helping some else prepare and being giving specific instructions on what to do so they can practice against it then you wont improve and it will be very demotivating.
As for KESPA players catching up I never said that and if you are inferring that KESPA players have caught up because they are able to beat GSL players then you are setting a very low standard. If they were not able to beat GSL players then that would show a huge lack of skill on their part, high level players should be able to beat any other high level player at any time in a series. As soon as we knew that they were able to make GM on the korean ladder then that meant that they were able to take games of any player in the world and if you can take a game you can take a series. but it is much to early to say they have caught up, they are good and nobody thought they wouldn't be but are equal, no not yet. but that does not mean that GSL players will never lose a series against a KESPA player
I agree with that last part. But I think Kespas streak was more then enough to confirm that they have indeed caught up to the current GOM pros. @the bolded part: Also by GSL players do you mean your current champion Seed? DRG? Gumiho? Puzzle? Leenock (who just won MLG)?
On August 27 2012 11:27 canikizu wrote: [quote] Yes, theorically. But remember, OSL and TV are also free advertisement for ESF. Sure, people can only watch Kespa's stuff on TV right now, but because there're 2 competitive parties, sooner or later, if SC2 does well on TV, one random TV station will pick up ESF and GomTV leagues to pull viewers.
That is not exactly true. If that were the case, Brood War in it's prime would have been featured on more television stations. Brood War was featured on two stations: MBC and OGN. MBC is now a music station and does not feature games anymore whereas OGN has agreements with Kespa. So, GOM actually being able to broadcast on television is very unlikely.
But we did have 2 stations, right? That's the whole point of it. Even if ESF players don't have TV exposure, the fact that there's a rivalry between 2 different party will make casual audience aware of the existence of the other one. So it's basically free advertisement for ESF. Eventually if the demand allows it and the price is right, it will happen.
Actually, no. The casual audience will only want to see their Kespa players. So, if it is ESF vs ESF it is unlikely that they will be watching. They want to see the best and the best were the current players of Brood War. During the WCS, the Brood War players have already demonstrated that after 3 1/2 months while simutaniously and concurrently playing two games they are already on par with GOM/ESF players. Which means later down the line they will surpass them, thus Kespa being the best pros and that is where the interest lies. Much like the foreign fans preferring to watch two Koreans rather than two foreigners (I apologize if I generalized).
I never understood this line of reasoning. It's one thing to catch up to the existing level of play, it's a whole other thing to transcend it and make break thrus etc.
Beating the current GSL champ who has played for 2 years to your 3 1/2 months is more of "surpassing" then it is catching up.
Uh, I call bullshit. One series doesn't mean anything. Just because Naama beat MVP once doesn't make him the better player.
OH, and you said that foreigners would rather watch two Koreans than two foreigners... that's just false. Or at least, it is for me and the people I know who watch sc2. Most of us would prefer to watch Foreigners VS Koreans. That's where the fun is.
Naama has also played for 2 years. Roro hasn't and MVP wasn't the most current GSL champ, Seed is.
I would like to say who created and organized that builds that roro used? And who were been watched and researched by formal BW players? I mean... It is the matter of many unstable factors.
Polt started his gaming carrear as killing time and amature, meanwhile emperor played RTS game more than 10 years and even he sarted SC2 way faster. But we don't blame him by having less result than polt
Also don't you remember MVP fall down into code A with lossing 5 straght matches by bunch of nubs?
Come on man, that's like saying as long as you 3 Hatch Mutalisk vs 1 Rax CC expand, you'll win. The skill difference should still be there. And GOM guys should be winning 100% in a best of X series. No questions asked.
It's impossible for some one to win 100% of games, especially in pro-gaming competition because no one is perfect. There are too many factors in competition that make one loses to other. It's not only about skill and experience. Sometimes there is luck and other time people just could not perform really well because of stress.
Pro-players, regardless of organization, are human. Expecting them to win 100% is just too ideal.
On August 27 2012 11:34 BlazeFury01 wrote: [quote]
That is not exactly true. If that were the case, Brood War in it's prime would have been featured on more television stations. Brood War was featured on two stations: MBC and OGN. MBC is now a music station and does not feature games anymore whereas OGN has agreements with Kespa. So, GOM actually being able to broadcast on television is very unlikely.
But we did have 2 stations, right? That's the whole point of it. Even if ESF players don't have TV exposure, the fact that there's a rivalry between 2 different party will make casual audience aware of the existence of the other one. So it's basically free advertisement for ESF. Eventually if the demand allows it and the price is right, it will happen.
Actually, no. The casual audience will only want to see their Kespa players. So, if it is ESF vs ESF it is unlikely that they will be watching. They want to see the best and the best were the current players of Brood War. During the WCS, the Brood War players have already demonstrated that after 3 1/2 months while simutaniously and concurrently playing two games they are already on par with GOM/ESF players. Which means later down the line they will surpass them, thus Kespa being the best pros and that is where the interest lies. Much like the foreign fans preferring to watch two Koreans rather than two foreigners (I apologize if I generalized).
I never understood this line of reasoning. It's one thing to catch up to the existing level of play, it's a whole other thing to transcend it and make break thrus etc.
Beating the current GSL champ who has played for 2 years to your 3 1/2 months is more of "surpassing" then it is catching up.
Uh, I call bullshit. One series doesn't mean anything. Just because Naama beat MVP once doesn't make him the better player.
OH, and you said that foreigners would rather watch two Koreans than two foreigners... that's just false. Or at least, it is for me and the people I know who watch sc2. Most of us would prefer to watch Foreigners VS Koreans. That's where the fun is.
Naama has also played for 2 years. Roro hasn't and MVP wasn't the most current GSL champ, Seed is.
I would like to say who created and organized that builds that roro used? And who were been watched and researched by formal BW players? I mean... It is the matter of many unstable factors.
Polt started his gaming carrear as killing time and amature, meanwhile emperor played RTS game more than 10 years and even he sarted SC2 way faster. But we don't blame him by having less result than polt
Also don't you remember MVP fall down into code A with lossing 5 straght matches by bunch of nubs?
Come on man, that's like saying as long as you 3 Hatch Mutalisk vs 1 Rax CC expand, you'll win. The skill difference should still be there. And GOM guys should be winning 100% in a best of X series. No questions asked.
For that to happen the KESPA players would have to be terrible, any high level player can take a series of any other high level player, if they cant then they cannot be considered a high level player.
That's the point though. They are supposedly to be 'different' games. And thus the skill set should be 'different'. If not, then you are pretty much proving the 'elephant theory' right. And if that's right, that means Kespa's skill level > Gom's. And by going to that pattern, the Kespa guys would, sooner or later take over the competitions anyways.
On August 27 2012 11:34 BlazeFury01 wrote: [quote]
That is not exactly true. If that were the case, Brood War in it's prime would have been featured on more television stations. Brood War was featured on two stations: MBC and OGN. MBC is now a music station and does not feature games anymore whereas OGN has agreements with Kespa. So, GOM actually being able to broadcast on television is very unlikely.
But we did have 2 stations, right? That's the whole point of it. Even if ESF players don't have TV exposure, the fact that there's a rivalry between 2 different party will make casual audience aware of the existence of the other one. So it's basically free advertisement for ESF. Eventually if the demand allows it and the price is right, it will happen.
Actually, no. The casual audience will only want to see their Kespa players. So, if it is ESF vs ESF it is unlikely that they will be watching. They want to see the best and the best were the current players of Brood War. During the WCS, the Brood War players have already demonstrated that after 3 1/2 months while simutaniously and concurrently playing two games they are already on par with GOM/ESF players. Which means later down the line they will surpass them, thus Kespa being the best pros and that is where the interest lies. Much like the foreign fans preferring to watch two Koreans rather than two foreigners (I apologize if I generalized).
I never understood this line of reasoning. It's one thing to catch up to the existing level of play, it's a whole other thing to transcend it and make break thrus etc.
Beating the current GSL champ who has played for 2 years to your 3 1/2 months is more of "surpassing" then it is catching up.
Uh, I call bullshit. One series doesn't mean anything. Just because Naama beat MVP once doesn't make him the better player.
OH, and you said that foreigners would rather watch two Koreans than two foreigners... that's just false. Or at least, it is for me and the people I know who watch sc2. Most of us would prefer to watch Foreigners VS Koreans. That's where the fun is.
Naama has also played for 2 years. Roro hasn't and MVP wasn't the most current GSL champ, Seed is.
I would like to say who created and organized that builds that roro used? And who were been watched and researched by formal BW players? I mean... It is the matter of many unstable factors.
Polt started his gaming carrear as killing time and amature, meanwhile emperor played RTS game more than 10 years and even he sarted SC2 way faster. But we don't blame him by having less result than polt
Also don't you remember MVP fall down into code A with lossing 5 straght matches by bunch of nubs?
Come on man, that's like saying as long as you 3 Hatch Mutalisk vs 1 Rax CC expand, you'll win. The skill difference should still be there. And GOM guys should be winning 100% in a best of X series. No questions asked.
It's impossible for some one to win 100% of games, especially in pro-gaming competition because no one is perfect. There are too many factors in competition that make one loses to other. It's not only about skill and experience. Sometimes there is luck and other time people just could not perform really well because of stress.
Pro-players, regardless of organization, are human. Expecting them to win 100% is just too ideal.
@Bolded part, feel free to re-read my writing.
@Stress, why would they stress? They have 2 years of experience. They should scoff at them instead.
On August 27 2012 11:27 canikizu wrote: [quote] Yes, theorically. But remember, OSL and TV are also free advertisement for ESF. Sure, people can only watch Kespa's stuff on TV right now, but because there're 2 competitive parties, sooner or later, if SC2 does well on TV, one random TV station will pick up ESF and GomTV leagues to pull viewers.
That is not exactly true. If that were the case, Brood War in it's prime would have been featured on more television stations. Brood War was featured on two stations: MBC and OGN. MBC is now a music station and does not feature games anymore whereas OGN has agreements with Kespa. So, GOM actually being able to broadcast on television is very unlikely.
But we did have 2 stations, right? That's the whole point of it. Even if ESF players don't have TV exposure, the fact that there's a rivalry between 2 different party will make casual audience aware of the existence of the other one. So it's basically free advertisement for ESF. Eventually if the demand allows it and the price is right, it will happen.
Actually, no. The casual audience will only want to see their Kespa players. So, if it is ESF vs ESF it is unlikely that they will be watching. They want to see the best and the best were the current players of Brood War. During the WCS, the Brood War players have already demonstrated that after 3 1/2 months while simutaniously and concurrently playing two games they are already on par with GOM/ESF players. Which means later down the line they will surpass them, thus Kespa being the best pros and that is where the interest lies. Much like the foreign fans preferring to watch two Koreans rather than two foreigners (I apologize if I generalized).
I never understood this line of reasoning. It's one thing to catch up to the existing level of play, it's a whole other thing to transcend it and make break thrus etc.
Beating the current GSL champ who has played for 2 years to your 3 1/2 months is more of "surpassing" then it is catching up.
Uh, I call bullshit. One series doesn't mean anything. Just because Naama beat MVP once doesn't make him the better player.
OH, and you said that foreigners would rather watch two Koreans than two foreigners... that's just false. Or at least, it is for me and the people I know who watch sc2. Most of us would prefer to watch Foreigners VS Koreans. That's where the fun is.
Naama has also played for 2 years. Roro hasn't and MVP wasn't the most current GSL champ, Seed is.
I would like to say who created and organized that builds that roro used? And who were been watched and researched by formal BW players? I mean... It is the matter of many unstable factors.
Polt started his gaming carrear as killing time and amature, meanwhile emperor played RTS game more than 10 years and even he sarted SC2 way faster. But we don't blame him by having less result than polt
Also don't you remember MVP fall down into code A with lossing 5 straght matches by bunch of nubs?
Come on man, that's like saying as long as you 3 Hatch Mutalisk vs 1 Rax CC expand, you'll win. The skill difference should still be there. And GOM guys should be winning 100% in a best of X series. No questions asked.
Thats ridiculous. Starcraft 2 is not exactly on par with other competitions where experience will 100% outshine a lack there of.
The guys crossing over into SC2 have the same mentality/mind frame when playing as in BW. It's not like some kids off the street have come and beat the Dream Team in Basketball.
The BW guys have arguably come from a game that requires more from you than SC2 does, so they are able to use their extra APM to do something else, which gives them an edge.
On August 27 2012 11:34 BlazeFury01 wrote: [quote]
That is not exactly true. If that were the case, Brood War in it's prime would have been featured on more television stations. Brood War was featured on two stations: MBC and OGN. MBC is now a music station and does not feature games anymore whereas OGN has agreements with Kespa. So, GOM actually being able to broadcast on television is very unlikely.
But we did have 2 stations, right? That's the whole point of it. Even if ESF players don't have TV exposure, the fact that there's a rivalry between 2 different party will make casual audience aware of the existence of the other one. So it's basically free advertisement for ESF. Eventually if the demand allows it and the price is right, it will happen.
Actually, no. The casual audience will only want to see their Kespa players. So, if it is ESF vs ESF it is unlikely that they will be watching. They want to see the best and the best were the current players of Brood War. During the WCS, the Brood War players have already demonstrated that after 3 1/2 months while simutaniously and concurrently playing two games they are already on par with GOM/ESF players. Which means later down the line they will surpass them, thus Kespa being the best pros and that is where the interest lies. Much like the foreign fans preferring to watch two Koreans rather than two foreigners (I apologize if I generalized).
I never understood this line of reasoning. It's one thing to catch up to the existing level of play, it's a whole other thing to transcend it and make break thrus etc.
Beating the current GSL champ who has played for 2 years to your 3 1/2 months is more of "surpassing" then it is catching up.
Uh, I call bullshit. One series doesn't mean anything. Just because Naama beat MVP once doesn't make him the better player.
OH, and you said that foreigners would rather watch two Koreans than two foreigners... that's just false. Or at least, it is for me and the people I know who watch sc2. Most of us would prefer to watch Foreigners VS Koreans. That's where the fun is.
Naama has also played for 2 years. Roro hasn't and MVP wasn't the most current GSL champ, Seed is.
I would like to say who created and organized that builds that roro used? And who were been watched and researched by formal BW players? I mean... It is the matter of many unstable factors.
Polt started his gaming carrear as killing time and amature, meanwhile emperor played RTS game more than 10 years and even he sarted SC2 way faster. But we don't blame him by having less result than polt
Also don't you remember MVP fall down into code A with lossing 5 straght matches by bunch of nubs?
Come on man, that's like saying as long as you 3 Hatch Mutalisk vs 1 Rax CC expand, you'll win. The skill difference should still be there. And GOM guys should be winning 100% in a best of X series. No questions asked.
Thats ridiculous. Starcraft 2 is not exactly on par with other competitions where experience will 100% outshine a lack there of.
The guys crossing over into SC2 have the same mentality/mind frame when playing as in BW. It's not like some kids off the street have come and beat the Dream Team in Basketball.
The BW guys have arguably come from a game that requires more from you than SC2 does, so they are able to use their extra APM to do something else, which gives them an edge.
To sum up on that post, you are agreeing with the elephant theory.
On August 27 2012 11:27 canikizu wrote: [quote] Yes, theorically. But remember, OSL and TV are also free advertisement for ESF. Sure, people can only watch Kespa's stuff on TV right now, but because there're 2 competitive parties, sooner or later, if SC2 does well on TV, one random TV station will pick up ESF and GomTV leagues to pull viewers.
That is not exactly true. If that were the case, Brood War in it's prime would have been featured on more television stations. Brood War was featured on two stations: MBC and OGN. MBC is now a music station and does not feature games anymore whereas OGN has agreements with Kespa. So, GOM actually being able to broadcast on television is very unlikely.
But we did have 2 stations, right? That's the whole point of it. Even if ESF players don't have TV exposure, the fact that there's a rivalry between 2 different party will make casual audience aware of the existence of the other one. So it's basically free advertisement for ESF. Eventually if the demand allows it and the price is right, it will happen.
Actually, no. The casual audience will only want to see their Kespa players. So, if it is ESF vs ESF it is unlikely that they will be watching. They want to see the best and the best were the current players of Brood War. During the WCS, the Brood War players have already demonstrated that after 3 1/2 months while simutaniously and concurrently playing two games they are already on par with GOM/ESF players. Which means later down the line they will surpass them, thus Kespa being the best pros and that is where the interest lies. Much like the foreign fans preferring to watch two Koreans rather than two foreigners (I apologize if I generalized).
I never understood this line of reasoning. It's one thing to catch up to the existing level of play, it's a whole other thing to transcend it and make break thrus etc.
Beating the current GSL champ who has played for 2 years to your 3 1/2 months is more of "surpassing" then it is catching up. Also, we know how hard it was to become a Brood War pro and why most of the ESF and current SC2 pros did not make a big splash in the scene. It took a load of skill. We know the potential of Brood War pros which is why people make the comparison.
The reason, or at least one of the major reasons, that a lot of the ESF players were not able to break out in BW but became the best players in SC2 was because if you were not already an A team player in BW then you had to spend so much of your time helping the best players on your team stay the best and not a lot of time on improving yourself. when players switched to SC2 they were able to focus on themselves and as a result they were able to reach their potential something that was not possible in BW. remember that July advised MC, they were team mates in BW, to change to SC2 because he would have better opportunities to be successful because by that time BW had become too codified.
Ok. So, what you are telling me is that the current SC2 players have reached their potential and that Kespa players after 3 1/2 months while playing two games have already caught up to it? Sounds to me like very bad news for GOM players and that GSL should stay GOM and OSL should stay Kespa. Otherwise, GOM players will only have foreign events as a way to make a profit. July probably encouraged MC to switch to SC2 because he was not doing well on BW with a 1-9 record. Also, I do not understand the bolded quote. I would think that training with the best player on the team would well...make you better overall. Because you improve by playing people better then you.
There is a difference between training with someone and helping someone else train. if you are training with someone then you should improve but if you are helping some else prepare and being giving specific instructions on what to do so they can practice against it then you wont improve and it will be very demotivating.
As for KESPA players catching up I never said that and if you are inferring that KESPA players have caught up because they are able to beat GSL players then you are setting a very low standard. If they were not able to beat GSL players then that would show a huge lack of skill on their part, high level players should be able to beat any other high level player at any time in a series. As soon as we knew that they were able to make GM on the korean ladder then that meant that they were able to take games of any player in the world and if you can take a game you can take a series. but it is much to early to say they have caught up, they are good and nobody thought they wouldn't be but are equal, no not yet. but that does not mean that GSL players will never lose a series against a KESPA player
I agree with that last part. But I think Kespas streak was more then enough to confirm that they have indeed caught up to the current GOM pros. @the bolded part: Also by GSL players do you mean your current champion Seed? DRG? Gumiho? Puzzle? Leenock (who just won MLG)?
As for KESPA catching up that is opinion based so i think we can agree to disagree on that. im confused about the last part of you post and what point you are trying to make, maybe im just dense at the moment.
On August 27 2012 12:44 canikizu wrote: [quote] But we did have 2 stations, right? That's the whole point of it. Even if ESF players don't have TV exposure, the fact that there's a rivalry between 2 different party will make casual audience aware of the existence of the other one. So it's basically free advertisement for ESF. Eventually if the demand allows it and the price is right, it will happen.
Actually, no. The casual audience will only want to see their Kespa players. So, if it is ESF vs ESF it is unlikely that they will be watching. They want to see the best and the best were the current players of Brood War. During the WCS, the Brood War players have already demonstrated that after 3 1/2 months while simutaniously and concurrently playing two games they are already on par with GOM/ESF players. Which means later down the line they will surpass them, thus Kespa being the best pros and that is where the interest lies. Much like the foreign fans preferring to watch two Koreans rather than two foreigners (I apologize if I generalized).
I never understood this line of reasoning. It's one thing to catch up to the existing level of play, it's a whole other thing to transcend it and make break thrus etc.
Beating the current GSL champ who has played for 2 years to your 3 1/2 months is more of "surpassing" then it is catching up.
Uh, I call bullshit. One series doesn't mean anything. Just because Naama beat MVP once doesn't make him the better player.
OH, and you said that foreigners would rather watch two Koreans than two foreigners... that's just false. Or at least, it is for me and the people I know who watch sc2. Most of us would prefer to watch Foreigners VS Koreans. That's where the fun is.
Naama has also played for 2 years. Roro hasn't and MVP wasn't the most current GSL champ, Seed is.
I would like to say who created and organized that builds that roro used? And who were been watched and researched by formal BW players? I mean... It is the matter of many unstable factors.
Polt started his gaming carrear as killing time and amature, meanwhile emperor played RTS game more than 10 years and even he sarted SC2 way faster. But we don't blame him by having less result than polt
Also don't you remember MVP fall down into code A with lossing 5 straght matches by bunch of nubs?
Come on man, that's like saying as long as you 3 Hatch Mutalisk vs 1 Rax CC expand, you'll win. The skill difference should still be there. And GOM guys should be winning 100% in a best of X series. No questions asked.
For that to happen the KESPA players would have to be terrible, any high level player can take a series of any other high level player, if they cant then they cannot be considered a high level player.
That's the point though. They are supposedly to be 'different' games. And thus the skill set should be 'different'. If not, then you are pretty much proving the 'elephant theory' right. And if that's right, that means Kespa's skill level > Gom's. And by going to that pattern, the Kespa guys would, sooner or later take over the competitions anyways.
I like this discussion. I think that right now kespa is impressing with their training regimen getting them up to date on builds as well as some nice competitive preparation vs gom players. However, ive heard it said that sc2 players become stylistic. That is to say, they can start being prepared for. What i worry for is that someone like roro may become as defeatable as leenock. You just have to do it right
Edit: ironically, for the elephant theory to be proven, kespa should agree to esf requests
On August 27 2012 11:34 BlazeFury01 wrote: [quote]
That is not exactly true. If that were the case, Brood War in it's prime would have been featured on more television stations. Brood War was featured on two stations: MBC and OGN. MBC is now a music station and does not feature games anymore whereas OGN has agreements with Kespa. So, GOM actually being able to broadcast on television is very unlikely.
But we did have 2 stations, right? That's the whole point of it. Even if ESF players don't have TV exposure, the fact that there's a rivalry between 2 different party will make casual audience aware of the existence of the other one. So it's basically free advertisement for ESF. Eventually if the demand allows it and the price is right, it will happen.
Actually, no. The casual audience will only want to see their Kespa players. So, if it is ESF vs ESF it is unlikely that they will be watching. They want to see the best and the best were the current players of Brood War. During the WCS, the Brood War players have already demonstrated that after 3 1/2 months while simutaniously and concurrently playing two games they are already on par with GOM/ESF players. Which means later down the line they will surpass them, thus Kespa being the best pros and that is where the interest lies. Much like the foreign fans preferring to watch two Koreans rather than two foreigners (I apologize if I generalized).
I never understood this line of reasoning. It's one thing to catch up to the existing level of play, it's a whole other thing to transcend it and make break thrus etc.
Beating the current GSL champ who has played for 2 years to your 3 1/2 months is more of "surpassing" then it is catching up. Also, we know how hard it was to become a Brood War pro and why most of the ESF and current SC2 pros did not make a big splash in the scene. It took a load of skill. We know the potential of Brood War pros which is why people make the comparison.
The reason, or at least one of the major reasons, that a lot of the ESF players were not able to break out in BW but became the best players in SC2 was because if you were not already an A team player in BW then you had to spend so much of your time helping the best players on your team stay the best and not a lot of time on improving yourself. when players switched to SC2 they were able to focus on themselves and as a result they were able to reach their potential something that was not possible in BW. remember that July advised MC, they were team mates in BW, to change to SC2 because he would have better opportunities to be successful because by that time BW had become too codified.
Ok. So, what you are telling me is that the current SC2 players have reached their potential and that Kespa players after 3 1/2 months while playing two games have already caught up to it? Sounds to me like very bad news for GOM players and that GSL should stay GOM and OSL should stay Kespa. Otherwise, GOM players will only have foreign events as a way to make a profit. July probably encouraged MC to switch to SC2 because he was not doing well on BW with a 1-9 record. Also, I do not understand the bolded quote. I would think that training with the best player on the team would well...make you better overall. Because you improve by playing people better then you.
There is a difference between training with someone and helping someone else train. if you are training with someone then you should improve but if you are helping some else prepare and being giving specific instructions on what to do so they can practice against it then you wont improve and it will be very demotivating.
As for KESPA players catching up I never said that and if you are inferring that KESPA players have caught up because they are able to beat GSL players then you are setting a very low standard. If they were not able to beat GSL players then that would show a huge lack of skill on their part, high level players should be able to beat any other high level player at any time in a series. As soon as we knew that they were able to make GM on the korean ladder then that meant that they were able to take games of any player in the world and if you can take a game you can take a series. but it is much to early to say they have caught up, they are good and nobody thought they wouldn't be but are equal, no not yet. but that does not mean that GSL players will never lose a series against a KESPA player
I agree with that last part. But I think Kespas streak was more then enough to confirm that they have indeed caught up to the current GOM pros. @the bolded part: Also by GSL players do you mean your current champion Seed? DRG? Gumiho? Puzzle? Leenock (who just won MLG)?
As for KESPA catching up that is opinion based so i think we can agree to disagree on that. im confused about the last part of you post and what point you are trying to make, maybe im just dense at the moment.
Why go by opinions when we have facts?...The point that I am trying to make by my last quote is that it was some of SC2s best players that lost to Kespa players. The fact that they beat some of the best SC2 had to offer is enough evidence to show that they have caught up and are on par with the current GOM pros.
On August 27 2012 11:34 BlazeFury01 wrote: [quote]
That is not exactly true. If that were the case, Brood War in it's prime would have been featured on more television stations. Brood War was featured on two stations: MBC and OGN. MBC is now a music station and does not feature games anymore whereas OGN has agreements with Kespa. So, GOM actually being able to broadcast on television is very unlikely.
But we did have 2 stations, right? That's the whole point of it. Even if ESF players don't have TV exposure, the fact that there's a rivalry between 2 different party will make casual audience aware of the existence of the other one. So it's basically free advertisement for ESF. Eventually if the demand allows it and the price is right, it will happen.
Actually, no. The casual audience will only want to see their Kespa players. So, if it is ESF vs ESF it is unlikely that they will be watching. They want to see the best and the best were the current players of Brood War. During the WCS, the Brood War players have already demonstrated that after 3 1/2 months while simutaniously and concurrently playing two games they are already on par with GOM/ESF players. Which means later down the line they will surpass them, thus Kespa being the best pros and that is where the interest lies. Much like the foreign fans preferring to watch two Koreans rather than two foreigners (I apologize if I generalized).
I never understood this line of reasoning. It's one thing to catch up to the existing level of play, it's a whole other thing to transcend it and make break thrus etc.
Beating the current GSL champ who has played for 2 years to your 3 1/2 months is more of "surpassing" then it is catching up. Also, we know how hard it was to become a Brood War pro and why most of the ESF and current SC2 pros did not make a big splash in the scene. It took a load of skill. We know the potential of Brood War pros which is why people make the comparison.
The reason, or at least one of the major reasons, that a lot of the ESF players were not able to break out in BW but became the best players in SC2 was because if you were not already an A team player in BW then you had to spend so much of your time helping the best players on your team stay the best and not a lot of time on improving yourself. when players switched to SC2 they were able to focus on themselves and as a result they were able to reach their potential something that was not possible in BW. remember that July advised MC, they were team mates in BW, to change to SC2 because he would have better opportunities to be successful because by that time BW had become too codified.
Ok. So, what you are telling me is that the current SC2 players have reached their potential and that Kespa players after 3 1/2 months while playing two games have already caught up to it? Sounds to me like very bad news for GOM players and that GSL should stay GOM and OSL should stay Kespa. Otherwise, GOM players will only have foreign events as a way to make a profit. July probably encouraged MC to switch to SC2 because he was not doing well on BW with a 1-9 record. Also, I do not understand the bolded quote. I would think that training with the best player on the team would well...make you better overall. Because you improve by playing people better then you.
There is a difference between training with someone and helping someone else train. if you are training with someone then you should improve but if you are helping some else prepare and being giving specific instructions on what to do so they can practice against it then you wont improve and it will be very demotivating.
As for KESPA players catching up I never said that and if you are inferring that KESPA players have caught up because they are able to beat GSL players then you are setting a very low standard. If they were not able to beat GSL players then that would show a huge lack of skill on their part, high level players should be able to beat any other high level player at any time in a series. As soon as we knew that they were able to make GM on the korean ladder then that meant that they were able to take games of any player in the world and if you can take a game you can take a series. but it is much to early to say they have caught up, they are good and nobody thought they wouldn't be but are equal, no not yet. but that does not mean that GSL players will never lose a series against a KESPA player
I agree with that last part. But I think Kespas streak was more then enough to confirm that they have indeed caught up to the current GOM pros. @the bolded part: Also by GSL players do you mean your current champion Seed? DRG? Gumiho? Puzzle? Leenock (who just won MLG)?
As for KESPA catching up that is opinion based so i think we can agree to disagree on that. im confused about the last part of you post and what point you are trying to make, maybe im just dense at the moment.
His point, I think, is that saying 'GSL players' or 'eSF players' covers a pretty big skill gap. There's a huge difference between the best and the more mediocre. Someone like Seed or Taeja is a much tougher challenge than someone like TheBest or Freaky, even though all four are GSL players.
On August 27 2012 12:50 BlazeFury01 wrote: [quote]
Actually, no. The casual audience will only want to see their Kespa players. So, if it is ESF vs ESF it is unlikely that they will be watching. They want to see the best and the best were the current players of Brood War. During the WCS, the Brood War players have already demonstrated that after 3 1/2 months while simutaniously and concurrently playing two games they are already on par with GOM/ESF players. Which means later down the line they will surpass them, thus Kespa being the best pros and that is where the interest lies. Much like the foreign fans preferring to watch two Koreans rather than two foreigners (I apologize if I generalized).
I never understood this line of reasoning. It's one thing to catch up to the existing level of play, it's a whole other thing to transcend it and make break thrus etc.
Beating the current GSL champ who has played for 2 years to your 3 1/2 months is more of "surpassing" then it is catching up.
Uh, I call bullshit. One series doesn't mean anything. Just because Naama beat MVP once doesn't make him the better player.
OH, and you said that foreigners would rather watch two Koreans than two foreigners... that's just false. Or at least, it is for me and the people I know who watch sc2. Most of us would prefer to watch Foreigners VS Koreans. That's where the fun is.
Naama has also played for 2 years. Roro hasn't and MVP wasn't the most current GSL champ, Seed is.
I would like to say who created and organized that builds that roro used? And who were been watched and researched by formal BW players? I mean... It is the matter of many unstable factors.
Polt started his gaming carrear as killing time and amature, meanwhile emperor played RTS game more than 10 years and even he sarted SC2 way faster. But we don't blame him by having less result than polt
Also don't you remember MVP fall down into code A with lossing 5 straght matches by bunch of nubs?
Come on man, that's like saying as long as you 3 Hatch Mutalisk vs 1 Rax CC expand, you'll win. The skill difference should still be there. And GOM guys should be winning 100% in a best of X series. No questions asked.
For that to happen the KESPA players would have to be terrible, any high level player can take a series of any other high level player, if they cant then they cannot be considered a high level player.
That's the point though. They are supposedly to be 'different' games. And thus the skill set should be 'different'. If not, then you are pretty much proving the 'elephant theory' right. And if that's right, that means Kespa's skill level > Gom's. And by going to that pattern, the Kespa guys would, sooner or later take over the competitions anyways.
I like this discussion. I think that right now kespa is impressing with their training regimen getting them up to date on builds as well as some nice competitive preparation vs gom players. However, ive heard it said that sc2 players become stylistic. That is to say, they can start being prepared for. What i worry for is that someone like roro may become as defeatable as leenock. You just have to do it right
Edit: ironically, for the elephant theory to be proven, kespa should agree to esf requests
It was already proven with WCS. Regardless of how many times they prove themselves, there will always be a "Well, in order to prove it they have to...". Keep in mind, they didn't just take sets, they went on a rather vast streak.
I'm not sure but you seem to contradict yourself a little bit. You're basically saying that an ESF have lots of chance to win prize money in OSL and implying that Kespa players aren't up to par with them yet, but your last sentence, you're like saying, ''Oh well, ESF players are lucky that there's not any Kespa player for the next season yet'', thus implying that Kespa players are up to par or better, lol. I might be not understanding, but it seems like bias to me.
And, why Kespa should decide for the players? Why not just let players choose if they want to enter in the GSL? Kespa players have expressed their desires to qualify for the GSL(like Roro), why not let them?
I always thought this was because the Kespa players are under a Contract.
Just because a contract exists doesn't mean that contract is fair to both parties. KESPA has way more power then the players and uses this power to prevent the players from negotiating an equitable agreement. Acts like shutting out other leagues(like GOM) is an example of this as it limits the players ability to find other opportunites.
Lets take this back a step, ahem! Who created the Korean & StarCraft e-sports scene again? Exactly! Kespa made it a possibility for the players to even have an opportunity to begin with. I suggest that you do not be so closed minded.
Just because you give opportunities for players to be a progamer or you have made up a scene from the ground doesn't give you the rights to treat your players like shit
I enjoy this vast display of exaggeration. Assuming that you have been a pro gamer for Kespa and all, you know that they are treated like shit. Right!
Lol you obviously know nothing about kespA. Go listen to idras recent interview he used to be on a kespA team.
IdrA have became indolent.
Now he is too busy doing talk shows and probably giving interviews.
He is treated as an sensation while the community scorn upon him before in BW for losing to F91, a Chinese Zerg player who plays the game as a side job while he was practicing in an actual progaming environment in CJ.
I'm sure than 100% of people here would regard their shitty past to....be 'inhumane'.
Wow dude. You just sound bitter and stupid.
And you can't come up with a proper argument, talking about imbecility. Pff
I'll take a progamer who lived in a kespa team's house (Idra and I believe ret and nony have talked about it to) over you when they say it's inhumane.
That is idra's interview and he does mention how kespa is and how he thinks it is good that players stand up to kespa. Just a small part and somewhere in beginning/middle iirc.
On August 27 2012 12:44 canikizu wrote: [quote] But we did have 2 stations, right? That's the whole point of it. Even if ESF players don't have TV exposure, the fact that there's a rivalry between 2 different party will make casual audience aware of the existence of the other one. So it's basically free advertisement for ESF. Eventually if the demand allows it and the price is right, it will happen.
Actually, no. The casual audience will only want to see their Kespa players. So, if it is ESF vs ESF it is unlikely that they will be watching. They want to see the best and the best were the current players of Brood War. During the WCS, the Brood War players have already demonstrated that after 3 1/2 months while simutaniously and concurrently playing two games they are already on par with GOM/ESF players. Which means later down the line they will surpass them, thus Kespa being the best pros and that is where the interest lies. Much like the foreign fans preferring to watch two Koreans rather than two foreigners (I apologize if I generalized).
I never understood this line of reasoning. It's one thing to catch up to the existing level of play, it's a whole other thing to transcend it and make break thrus etc.
Beating the current GSL champ who has played for 2 years to your 3 1/2 months is more of "surpassing" then it is catching up.
Uh, I call bullshit. One series doesn't mean anything. Just because Naama beat MVP once doesn't make him the better player.
OH, and you said that foreigners would rather watch two Koreans than two foreigners... that's just false. Or at least, it is for me and the people I know who watch sc2. Most of us would prefer to watch Foreigners VS Koreans. That's where the fun is.
Naama has also played for 2 years. Roro hasn't and MVP wasn't the most current GSL champ, Seed is.
I would like to say who created and organized that builds that roro used? And who were been watched and researched by formal BW players? I mean... It is the matter of many unstable factors.
Polt started his gaming carrear as killing time and amature, meanwhile emperor played RTS game more than 10 years and even he sarted SC2 way faster. But we don't blame him by having less result than polt
Also don't you remember MVP fall down into code A with lossing 5 straght matches by bunch of nubs?
Come on man, that's like saying as long as you 3 Hatch Mutalisk vs 1 Rax CC expand, you'll win. The skill difference should still be there. And GOM guys should be winning 100% in a best of X series. No questions asked.
It's impossible for some one to win 100% of games, especially in pro-gaming competition because no one is perfect. There are too many factors in competition that make one loses to other. It's not only about skill and experience. Sometimes there is luck and other time people just could not perform really well because of stress.
Pro-players, regardless of organization, are human. Expecting them to win 100% is just too ideal.
@Bolded part, feel free to re-read my writing.
@Stress, why would they stress? They have 2 years of experience. They should scoff at them instead.
I know what I am talking about. 100% against people who has less experience is impossible. It's not matter how much experience they have, you can't win it all. Experience is limited anyway, because there will always be something that is beyond your experience. That's why we learn something new and improve ourselves.
And for stress, they all have their rights to be stressed. What would people view them when they lose against people with less experience? What if fans hate me if I lose? You don't know what goes through people head in competition. Sometimes the more you push yourself, the more likely you would fall. We don't know whether they underestimated their opponents or they stressed themselves too much for the match. But stress definitely exists, regardless of how much it is.
EPT
