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On August 28 2012 01:25 GoonFFS wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 01:24 Gandhi wrote:On August 28 2012 01:18 GoonFFS wrote:
The reason the OSL should get the right to invite players to their tournament without sending players to GSL is that they have their own fans. that's actually what it boils down to in the end.
the old bw fans are not going to care about sc2 without seeing the best players play the old superstars in a tournament they already can relate to. I know they already had the proleague but the format was screwed so it didn't really do them justice.
the other part is that the GSL doesn't need the kespa players to run a good tournament with a strong following to back it up, the OSL need the gom players to showcase real skill to the dedicated bw fans
i'm not trying to be a dick about this, i just really dislike how the foreigner scene can bring a VERY successful organisation to its knees like this when they have given us some of the best years in our lives. This (to me) is a case of blackmailing and peer pressure, i think many of you posting here are just following the concensus without thinking - don't turn into reddit pls -_-
I think YOU are posting without any knowledge of what KESPA is and does. and i think you are going off topic right now
How is it off-topic? Your very basis is flawed. You are saying OSL should get the right to invite players to their own tournament without sending players to GSL. OSL is not in control of who gets to go to GSL or not. The players aren't disrespecting OSL as an entity. Nobody is against OSL itself, rather KESPA. Luckily, OGN is a big power and ESF pulling out of OSL was able to convince KESPA to send their players to GSL. This isn't about OSL, this is about KESPA not controlling the scene and doing whatever they want as the did in years past.
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On August 28 2012 01:18 GoonFFS wrote:
The reason the OSL should get the right to invite players to their tournament without sending players to GSL is that they have their own fans. that's actually what it boils down to in the end.
the old bw fans are not going to care about sc2 without seeing the best players play the old superstars in a tournament they already can relate to. I know they already had the proleague but the format was screwed so it didn't really do them justice.
the other part is that the GSL doesn't need the kespa players to run a good tournament with a strong following to back it up, the OSL need the gom players to showcase real skill to the dedicated bw fans
i'm not trying to be a dick about this, i just really dislike how the foreigner scene can bring a VERY successful organisation to its knees like this when they have given us some of the best years in our lives. This (to me) is a case of blackmailing and peer pressure, i think many of you posting here are just following the concensus without thinking - don't turn into reddit pls -_-
EDIT: I get the whole freedom for the players issue that some of you are trying to get at, but it's just such a small thing compared to the shady dealings kespa are known for - seriously, telling your players they have to wait 1 or 2 seasons before competing on the highest possible level isn't a big issue at all to me
My lord, there is no having an intelligent conversation with you, is there?
So first your argument was that ESF are the bad guys because they forced KeSPA to participate in a league with players that they aren't ready to compete with; and when someone completely threw this reasoning out the window with the OSL giving half their spots to GSL, you respond with "That's because they have their own fans, they deserve to host a tournament on their own terms but don't have to send players out if they don't want to"?
Seriously? Do you actually read the shit you type before you press that submit button?
That's like saying "It's okay for me to shoot you, but you can't shoot me. I want to live so you can't, you know, do that."
User was warned for this post
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On August 28 2012 01:24 Xpace wrote:
Man... these Koreans. Even their e-Sports drama is on a level above foreigners.
Their Esports drama is of much higher quality. In Korea, Kespa, backed by huge multi million dollar sponsors, makes a play to protect their control over players, brand and ability to control the content of touranments. GSL players fire back by dropping out of Kepsa's league and saying that they will not stand for Kespa's non-sense. Both sides stand their ground and then come to an agreement that will allow Kespa players to play in GSL, but not have to go through the code B qualifer(avoiding getting knocked out by some no name player and the bad press involved)
Outside of Korea: We don't allow a terran player on a free podcast and everyone freaks out. Or a tournament does not release their replays instantly after an event and everyone freaks out. Or a tournament decides to run a brand new live event and charge for the service, but still offers everything they previously offered last year, but we still freak out. Or a player leaves a team to join another team that may offer him more money, and we freak out because we hate/love change.
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There were a ton of outcomes KeSPA could have made, but they decided to play nice. Best possible outcome, though the tension was fun while it lasted.
On August 28 2012 01:18 GoonFFS wrote:
The reason the OSL should get the right to invite players to their tournament without sending players to GSL is that they have their own fans. that's actually what it boils down to in the end.
the old bw fans are not going to care about sc2 without seeing the best players play the old superstars in a tournament they already can relate to. I know they already had the proleague but the format was screwed so it didn't really do them justice.
the other part is that the GSL doesn't need the kespa players to run a good tournament with a strong following to back it up, the OSL need the gom players to showcase real skill to the dedicated bw fans
i'm not trying to be a dick about this, i just really dislike how the foreigner scene can bring a VERY successful organisation to its knees like this when they have given us some of the best years in our lives. This (to me) is a case of blackmailing and peer pressure, i think many of you posting here are just following the concensus without thinking - don't turn into reddit pls -_-
EDIT: I get the whole freedom for the players issue that some of you are trying to get at, but it's just such a small thing compared to the shady dealings kespa are known for - seriously, telling your players they have to wait 1 or 2 seasons before competing on the highest possible level isn't a big issue at all to me
OSL had nothing to do with sending players to GSL, it's entirely KeSPA. GSL WANTS those BW fans watching their tournament too, I don't think anyone cares what they 'relate too,' and if only OSL is allowed to have the star players the BW fans want to see then obviously everyone would watch OSL over GSL every time KeSPA bans their players from participating in GSL. KeSPA has nothing to gain by literally barring their players from participating in GSL other than to shaft them while OSL reaps every benefit from having both players.
Foreigner scene had nothing to do with this either. You got your facts mixed up. And KeSPA was very successful by ruthlessly pursuing their monopoly in Korea and maintaining an iron grip on it's players. And I'm not sure where you get highest level competition when you're forcing them to compete with the best SC2 players in OSL while GSL gains nothing in return.
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Blazinghand
United States25558 Posts
I'm glad this was able to come to an equitable resolution. Much props to the ESF for actually standing their ground on this, I expected them to cave. I also kinda espected KeSPA to go into some kind of massive dickery mode but they were also open to compromise. This was a victory for eSports.
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On August 28 2012 01:35 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 01:24 Xpace wrote:
Man... these Koreans. Even their e-Sports drama is on a level above foreigners. Their Esports drama is of much higher quality. In Korea, Kespa, backed by huge multi million dollar sponsors, makes a play to protect their control over players, brand and ability to control the content of touranments. GSL players fire back by dropping out of Kepsa's league and saying that they will not stand for Kespa's non-sense. Both sides stand their ground and then come to an agreement that will allow Kespa players to play in GSL, but not have to go through the code B qualifer(avoiding getting knocked out by some no name player and the bad press involved) Outside of Korea: We don't allow a terran player on a free podcast and everyone freaks out. Or a tournament does not release their replays instantly after an event and everyone freaks out. Or a tournament decides to run a brand new live event and charge for the service, but still offers everything they previously offered last year, but we still freak out. Or a player leaves a team to join another team that may offer him more money, and we freak out because we hate/love change.
If only TL were the deciding factor on presidents... we would have never had to suffer through Obama. "Change" would have been a horrible platform 
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Great news!!! Looking to see some fierce competition! 
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On August 28 2012 01:38 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 01:35 Plansix wrote:On August 28 2012 01:24 Xpace wrote:
Man... these Koreans. Even their e-Sports drama is on a level above foreigners. Their Esports drama is of much higher quality. In Korea, Kespa, backed by huge multi million dollar sponsors, makes a play to protect their control over players, brand and ability to control the content of touranments. GSL players fire back by dropping out of Kepsa's league and saying that they will not stand for Kespa's non-sense. Both sides stand their ground and then come to an agreement that will allow Kespa players to play in GSL, but not have to go through the code B qualifer(avoiding getting knocked out by some no name player and the bad press involved) Outside of Korea: We don't allow a terran player on a free podcast and everyone freaks out. Or a tournament does not release their replays instantly after an event and everyone freaks out. Or a tournament decides to run a brand new live event and charge for the service, but still offers everything they previously offered last year, but we still freak out. Or a player leaves a team to join another team that may offer him more money, and we freak out because we hate/love change. If only TL were the deciding factor on presidents... we would have never had to suffer through Obama. "Change" would have been a horrible platform
Obamas good dude... There's only so much you can do to fix a broken country
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On August 28 2012 01:22 Shinespark wrote:
So Kespa lost. Times are changing.
I fail to see how Kespa lost anything. They went from having all their players have to qualify for Code A, to getting four Code A and two Code S seeds. ESF got no change in the OSL format in return.
Kespa came out ahead because they got seeded into the GSL. If anything, ESF got played by Kespa on this one and are the ones who "lost".
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On August 28 2012 01:48 vesicular wrote:I fail to see how Kespa lost anything. They went from having all their players have to qualify for Code A, to getting four Code A and two Code S seeds. ESF got no change in the OSL format in return. Kespa came out ahead because they got seeded into the GSL. If anything, ESF got played by Kespa on this one and are the ones who "lost".
this correct, kinda smart play by kespa even though drama sucks they seem to end up on top regardless. atleast they are restrained from controlling korean e-sport for now.
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On August 28 2012 01:48 vesicular wrote:I fail to see how Kespa lost anything. They went from having all their players have to qualify for Code A, to getting four Code A and two Code S seeds. ESF got no change in the OSL format in return. Kespa came out ahead because they got seeded into the GSL. If anything, ESF got played by Kespa on this one and are the ones who "lost".
They compomised, which is the ideal result for disputes like this. Kespa did not want their players being forced to qualify through code B. From a PR stand point, I can see why they would not want Flash to be knocked out of the GSL by some random, non-code S player. They got a seperate qualifer, which allows them to keep their brand and not have it adversely affected by GOMs format.
GOM got what they wanted, which is players competing in both GLS and OSL with minimal restrictions. They have to seed some top OSL players in, but it is not like anyone can question if they are talent players.
I know people don't like compomise, because it sounds like losing, but it is not. This is a very reasonable outcome, where both sides are not happy, but can live with the results.
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On August 28 2012 01:48 vesicular wrote:I fail to see how Kespa lost anything. They went from having all their players have to qualify for Code A, to getting four Code A and two Code S seeds. ESF got no change in the OSL format in return. Kespa came out ahead because they got seeded into the GSL. If anything, ESF got played by Kespa on this one and are the ones who "lost".
I thought it has always been the plan to give out a few seeds to the KeSPa players, or am I wrong?
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On August 28 2012 01:29 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 01:18 GoonFFS wrote:
The reason the OSL should get the right to invite players to their tournament without sending players to GSL is that they have their own fans. that's actually what it boils down to in the end.
the old bw fans are not going to care about sc2 without seeing the best players play the old superstars in a tournament they already can relate to. I know they already had the proleague but the format was screwed so it didn't really do them justice.
the other part is that the GSL doesn't need the kespa players to run a good tournament with a strong following to back it up, the OSL need the gom players to showcase real skill to the dedicated bw fans
i'm not trying to be a dick about this, i just really dislike how the foreigner scene can bring a VERY successful organisation to its knees like this when they have given us some of the best years in our lives. This (to me) is a case of blackmailing and peer pressure, i think many of you posting here are just following the concensus without thinking - don't turn into reddit pls -_-
EDIT: I get the whole freedom for the players issue that some of you are trying to get at, but it's just such a small thing compared to the shady dealings kespa are known for - seriously, telling your players they have to wait 1 or 2 seasons before competing on the highest possible level isn't a big issue at all to me My lord, there is no having an intelligent conversation with you, is there? So first your argument was that ESF are the bad guys because they forced KeSPA to participate in a league with players that they aren't ready to compete with; and when someone completely threw this reasoning out the window with the OSL giving half their spots to GSL, you respond with "That's because they have their own fans, they deserve to host a tournament on their own terms but don't have to send players out if they don't want to"? Seriously? Do you actually read the shit you type before you press that submit button? That's like saying "It's okay for me to shoot you, but you can't shoot me. I want to live so you can't, you know, do that."
I'm quoting this because it sums up very well what reddit has done to the scene as a whole. at least the foreigner scene.
skim through post you don't necessarily agree with -> don't get it -> flame the poster with arguments of lacking intelligence
The reason the OSL fans are incredibly important to us is that without them, people like Flash are nothing. then they are nothing as long as they don't win (which they won't for a while). That's why KeSPA are afraid to send their players to GSL, and that's also why it doesn't mean anything for gom to have them play in the OSL. What you don't seem to understand is that KeSPA's risk (players to GSL) is WAY WAY larger than GOM's risk (players to OSL)
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Good news everyone! (in best Prof.Farnsworth voice)
Glad it worked out, OSL is saved and hopefully Kespa got their (first) lesson and won't try again soon.
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On August 28 2012 01:54 KapsyL wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 01:48 vesicular wrote:On August 28 2012 01:22 Shinespark wrote:
So Kespa lost. Times are changing. I fail to see how Kespa lost anything. They went from having all their players have to qualify for Code A, to getting four Code A and two Code S seeds. ESF got no change in the OSL format in return. Kespa came out ahead because they got seeded into the GSL. If anything, ESF got played by Kespa on this one and are the ones who "lost". this correct, kinda smart play by kespa even though drama sucks they seem to end up on top regardless. atleast they are restrained from controlling korean e-sport for now. I think the last thing is the reason why this isn't a win for kespa.
Kespa not controlling the scene gives both esf and gom a basis for the future, while giving kespa players seeds evens out in the long run or will even benefit gom, because the relevance of their league rises. To be honest, i would be very surprised to see gom not give seeds to kespa players, regardless of any incidents.
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On August 28 2012 01:57 GoonFFS wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 01:29 Dosey wrote:On August 28 2012 01:18 GoonFFS wrote:
The reason the OSL should get the right to invite players to their tournament without sending players to GSL is that they have their own fans. that's actually what it boils down to in the end.
the old bw fans are not going to care about sc2 without seeing the best players play the old superstars in a tournament they already can relate to. I know they already had the proleague but the format was screwed so it didn't really do them justice.
the other part is that the GSL doesn't need the kespa players to run a good tournament with a strong following to back it up, the OSL need the gom players to showcase real skill to the dedicated bw fans
i'm not trying to be a dick about this, i just really dislike how the foreigner scene can bring a VERY successful organisation to its knees like this when they have given us some of the best years in our lives. This (to me) is a case of blackmailing and peer pressure, i think many of you posting here are just following the concensus without thinking - don't turn into reddit pls -_-
EDIT: I get the whole freedom for the players issue that some of you are trying to get at, but it's just such a small thing compared to the shady dealings kespa are known for - seriously, telling your players they have to wait 1 or 2 seasons before competing on the highest possible level isn't a big issue at all to me My lord, there is no having an intelligent conversation with you, is there? So first your argument was that ESF are the bad guys because they forced KeSPA to participate in a league with players that they aren't ready to compete with; and when someone completely threw this reasoning out the window with the OSL giving half their spots to GSL, you respond with "That's because they have their own fans, they deserve to host a tournament on their own terms but don't have to send players out if they don't want to"? Seriously? Do you actually read the shit you type before you press that submit button? That's like saying "It's okay for me to shoot you, but you can't shoot me. I want to live so you can't, you know, do that." I'm quoting this because it sums up very well what reddit has done to the scene as a whole. at least the foreigner scene. skim through post you don't necessarily agree with -> don't get it -> flame the poster with arguments of lacking intelligence The reason the OSL fans are incredibly important to us is that without them, people like Flash are nothing. then they are nothing as long as they don't win (which they won't for a while). That's why KeSPA are afraid to send their players to GSL, and that's also why it doesn't mean anything for gom to have them play in the OSL. What you don't seem to understand is that KeSPA's risk (players to GSL) is WAY WAY larger than GOM's risk (players to OSL)
GoonFFS: I think people get your point, but you may not be making it in the best way. Kespa is attempting to protect the BRAND they created with the profession BW players. They do not want those players getting knocked out of another tournament in the qualifers, as they believe it would hurt their ability to market that player. This is totally valid, thoug their methods of dealing with it suck. The fans are not that important, or they are important in the fact that they are intrested in OSL players and the sponsors know this.
Protecting your brand is a valid business decision. Making agreements and then backing out of them at the last minute to attempt to get a better deal through hard ball negotiation is very shitty and frowned almost everywhere in the world.
But if people travel back in time to NASL season two, you will see a similar event where Koreans(GOM players) demanded more at the last minute and NASL told them to piss off. This is not a unique to Kespa.
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Poor alicia...he really deserved a Code S seed, or at least up/down. Also, it seems stephano might have missed his opportunity, since i don't any code s seeds will be going to foreigners for a while.
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On August 28 2012 01:57 GoonFFS wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 01:29 Dosey wrote:On August 28 2012 01:18 GoonFFS wrote:
The reason the OSL should get the right to invite players to their tournament without sending players to GSL is that they have their own fans. that's actually what it boils down to in the end.
the old bw fans are not going to care about sc2 without seeing the best players play the old superstars in a tournament they already can relate to. I know they already had the proleague but the format was screwed so it didn't really do them justice.
the other part is that the GSL doesn't need the kespa players to run a good tournament with a strong following to back it up, the OSL need the gom players to showcase real skill to the dedicated bw fans
i'm not trying to be a dick about this, i just really dislike how the foreigner scene can bring a VERY successful organisation to its knees like this when they have given us some of the best years in our lives. This (to me) is a case of blackmailing and peer pressure, i think many of you posting here are just following the concensus without thinking - don't turn into reddit pls -_-
EDIT: I get the whole freedom for the players issue that some of you are trying to get at, but it's just such a small thing compared to the shady dealings kespa are known for - seriously, telling your players they have to wait 1 or 2 seasons before competing on the highest possible level isn't a big issue at all to me My lord, there is no having an intelligent conversation with you, is there? So first your argument was that ESF are the bad guys because they forced KeSPA to participate in a league with players that they aren't ready to compete with; and when someone completely threw this reasoning out the window with the OSL giving half their spots to GSL, you respond with "That's because they have their own fans, they deserve to host a tournament on their own terms but don't have to send players out if they don't want to"? Seriously? Do you actually read the shit you type before you press that submit button? That's like saying "It's okay for me to shoot you, but you can't shoot me. I want to live so you can't, you know, do that." I'm quoting this because it sums up very well what reddit has done to the scene as a whole. at least the foreigner scene. skim through post you don't necessarily agree with -> don't get it -> flame the poster with arguments of lacking intelligence The reason the OSL fans are incredibly important to us is that without them, people like Flash are nothing. then they are nothing as long as they don't win (which they won't for a while). That's why KeSPA are afraid to send their players to GSL, and that's also why it doesn't mean anything for gom to have them play in the OSL. What you don't seem to understand is that KeSPA's risk (players to GSL) is WAY WAY larger than GOM's risk (players to OSL) I agree with your post. But that doesn't change the point. The point is that kespa agreed to respect leagues. Kespa says: no players in current gsl. ESF thinks that is disrespectful, after esf team members are already in osl. Who's side to choose? I don't care.
The point is not the participation of players, but if kespa's player withdrawal was according to agreement or not. The whole point of the agreement was establishing relations. Esf experienced this withdrawal as a blow in the face.
I'm personally siding with esf in this. But that's a matter of opinion.
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A win for the Kespa players, they can now enter GSL if they want. And a win for the fans.
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On August 28 2012 02:05 Plansix wrote:
Protecting your brand is a valid business decision. Making agreements and then backing out of them at the last minute to attempt to get a better deal through hard ball negotiation is very shitty and frowned almost everywhere in the world.
It's also a common business practice almost everywhere in the world. You just don't hear about it as much since most businesses aren't in the entertainment industry and have forums of fans arguing over all of it.
What everyone is seeing is the dirty side to business that happens every day. Nothing really new happening here except for people who aren't used to watching it unfold.
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EPT
