On August 28 2012 02:15 GoonFFS wrote: i'm unable to find a source for kespa promising to participate in GSL S4
That is not needed, if you read my post correctly. Maybe the word withdrawal was poorly chosen. I mean of course the decision to not participate in gsl 4. Doesn't change the point, though.
On August 28 2012 01:22 Shinespark wrote: So Kespa lost. Times are changing.
I fail to see how Kespa lost anything. They went from having all their players have to qualify for Code A, to getting four Code A and two Code S seeds. ESF got no change in the OSL format in return.
Kespa came out ahead because they got seeded into the GSL. If anything, ESF got played by Kespa on this one and are the ones who "lost".
this correct, kinda smart play by kespa even though drama sucks they seem to end up on top regardless. atleast they are restrained from controlling korean e-sport for now.
It's not that KESPA benefits more from the seeds, than GOM does. Kespa made an approach if they can eliminate GOM right now and it didn't work out. The next approach will be set up more carefully!
On August 28 2012 01:18 GoonFFS wrote: The reason the OSL should get the right to invite players to their tournament without sending players to GSL is that they have their own fans. that's actually what it boils down to in the end.
the old bw fans are not going to care about sc2 without seeing the best players play the old superstars in a tournament they already can relate to. I know they already had the proleague but the format was screwed so it didn't really do them justice. the other part is that the GSL doesn't need the kespa players to run a good tournament with a strong following to back it up, the OSL need the gom players to showcase real skill to the dedicated bw fans
i'm not trying to be a dick about this, i just really dislike how the foreigner scene can bring a VERY successful organisation to its knees like this when they have given us some of the best years in our lives. This (to me) is a case of blackmailing and peer pressure, i think many of you posting here are just following the concensus without thinking - don't turn into reddit pls -_-
EDIT: I get the whole freedom for the players issue that some of you are trying to get at, but it's just such a small thing compared to the shady dealings kespa are known for - seriously, telling your players they have to wait 1 or 2 seasons before competing on the highest possible level isn't a big issue at all to me
My lord, there is no having an intelligent conversation with you, is there? So first your argument was that ESF are the bad guys because they forced KeSPA to participate in a league with players that they aren't ready to compete with; and when someone completely threw this reasoning out the window with the OSL giving half their spots to GSL, you respond with "That's because they have their own fans, they deserve to host a tournament on their own terms but don't have to send players out if they don't want to"? Seriously? Do you actually read the shit you type before you press that submit button?
That's like saying "It's okay for me to shoot you, but you can't shoot me. I want to live so you can't, you know, do that."
I'm quoting this because it sums up very well what reddit has done to the scene as a whole. at least the foreigner scene.
skim through post you don't necessarily agree with -> don't get it -> flame the poster with arguments of lacking intelligence
The reason the OSL fans are incredibly important to us is that without them, people like Flash are nothing. then they are nothing as long as they don't win (which they won't for a while). That's why KeSPA are afraid to send their players to GSL, and that's also why it doesn't mean anything for gom to have them play in the OSL. What you don't seem to understand is that KeSPA's risk (players to GSL) is WAY WAY larger than GOM's risk (players to OSL)
I agree with your post. But that doesn't change the point. The point is that kespa agreed to respect leagues. Kespa says: no players in current gsl. ESF thinks that is disrespectful, after esf team members are already in osl. Who's side to choose? I don't care.
The point is not the participation of players, but if kespa's player withdrawal was according to agreement or not. The whole point of the agreement was establishing relations. Esf experienced this withdrawal as a blow in the face.
I'm personally siding with esf in this. But that's a matter of opinion.
The point exactly would be if kespa's player withdrawal was according to agreement or not. that's why i tried to find the source for the agreement
establishing relations is something they are doing regardless of this whole thing, they are building infrastructure no matter how this ends. esf experiencing a blow in the face would surely depends again on whether or not there even was an agreement
On August 28 2012 01:18 GoonFFS wrote: The reason the OSL should get the right to invite players to their tournament without sending players to GSL is that they have their own fans. that's actually what it boils down to in the end.
the old bw fans are not going to care about sc2 without seeing the best players play the old superstars in a tournament they already can relate to. I know they already had the proleague but the format was screwed so it didn't really do them justice. the other part is that the GSL doesn't need the kespa players to run a good tournament with a strong following to back it up, the OSL need the gom players to showcase real skill to the dedicated bw fans
i'm not trying to be a dick about this, i just really dislike how the foreigner scene can bring a VERY successful organisation to its knees like this when they have given us some of the best years in our lives. This (to me) is a case of blackmailing and peer pressure, i think many of you posting here are just following the concensus without thinking - don't turn into reddit pls -_-
EDIT: I get the whole freedom for the players issue that some of you are trying to get at, but it's just such a small thing compared to the shady dealings kespa are known for - seriously, telling your players they have to wait 1 or 2 seasons before competing on the highest possible level isn't a big issue at all to me
My lord, there is no having an intelligent conversation with you, is there? So first your argument was that ESF are the bad guys because they forced KeSPA to participate in a league with players that they aren't ready to compete with; and when someone completely threw this reasoning out the window with the OSL giving half their spots to GSL, you respond with "That's because they have their own fans, they deserve to host a tournament on their own terms but don't have to send players out if they don't want to"? Seriously? Do you actually read the shit you type before you press that submit button?
That's like saying "It's okay for me to shoot you, but you can't shoot me. I want to live so you can't, you know, do that."
I'm quoting this because it sums up very well what reddit has done to the scene as a whole. at least the foreigner scene.
skim through post you don't necessarily agree with -> don't get it -> flame the poster with arguments of lacking intelligence
The reason the OSL fans are incredibly important to us is that without them, people like Flash are nothing. then they are nothing as long as they don't win (which they won't for a while). That's why KeSPA are afraid to send their players to GSL, and that's also why it doesn't mean anything for gom to have them play in the OSL. What you don't seem to understand is that KeSPA's risk (players to GSL) is WAY WAY larger than GOM's risk (players to OSL)
I agree with your post. But that doesn't change the point. The point is that kespa agreed to respect leagues. Kespa says: no players in current gsl. ESF thinks that is disrespectful, after esf team members are already in osl. Who's side to choose? I don't care.
The point is not the participation of players, but if kespa's player withdrawal was according to agreement or not. The whole point of the agreement was establishing relations. Esf experienced this withdrawal as a blow in the face.
I'm personally siding with esf in this. But that's a matter of opinion.
The point exactly would be if kespa's player withdrawal was according to agreement or not. that's why i tried to find the source for the agreement
establishing relations is something they are doing regardless of this whole thing, they are building infrastructure no matter how this ends. esf experiencing a blow in the face would surely depends again on whether or not there even was an agreement
"Director Oh from KeSPA said, "For the sake of long-term development of eSports, revitalizing StarCraft 2 leagues is important," and added, "We want to show the growth of the industry by respecting each other's league and having a fair competition." "
This is proof of an informal agreement. Not for the participation of players, but respecting each others leagues. And as i said before, the lack of participation was received as a blow in the face, because of a lack of respect for gom's league in the light of participation of esf's player in osl.
On August 28 2012 01:18 GoonFFS wrote: The reason the OSL should get the right to invite players to their tournament without sending players to GSL is that they have their own fans. that's actually what it boils down to in the end.
the old bw fans are not going to care about sc2 without seeing the best players play the old superstars in a tournament they already can relate to. I know they already had the proleague but the format was screwed so it didn't really do them justice. the other part is that the GSL doesn't need the kespa players to run a good tournament with a strong following to back it up, the OSL need the gom players to showcase real skill to the dedicated bw fans
i'm not trying to be a dick about this, i just really dislike how the foreigner scene can bring a VERY successful organisation to its knees like this when they have given us some of the best years in our lives. This (to me) is a case of blackmailing and peer pressure, i think many of you posting here are just following the concensus without thinking - don't turn into reddit pls -_-
EDIT: I get the whole freedom for the players issue that some of you are trying to get at, but it's just such a small thing compared to the shady dealings kespa are known for - seriously, telling your players they have to wait 1 or 2 seasons before competing on the highest possible level isn't a big issue at all to me
My lord, there is no having an intelligent conversation with you, is there? So first your argument was that ESF are the bad guys because they forced KeSPA to participate in a league with players that they aren't ready to compete with; and when someone completely threw this reasoning out the window with the OSL giving half their spots to GSL, you respond with "That's because they have their own fans, they deserve to host a tournament on their own terms but don't have to send players out if they don't want to"? Seriously? Do you actually read the shit you type before you press that submit button?
That's like saying "It's okay for me to shoot you, but you can't shoot me. I want to live so you can't, you know, do that."
I'm quoting this because it sums up very well what reddit has done to the scene as a whole. at least the foreigner scene.
skim through post you don't necessarily agree with -> don't get it -> flame the poster with arguments of lacking intelligence
The reason the OSL fans are incredibly important to us is that without them, people like Flash are nothing. then they are nothing as long as they don't win (which they won't for a while). That's why KeSPA are afraid to send their players to GSL, and that's also why it doesn't mean anything for gom to have them play in the OSL. What you don't seem to understand is that KeSPA's risk (players to GSL) is WAY WAY larger than GOM's risk (players to OSL)
I agree with your post. But that doesn't change the point. The point is that kespa agreed to respect leagues. Kespa says: no players in current gsl. ESF thinks that is disrespectful, after esf team members are already in osl. Who's side to choose? I don't care.
The point is not the participation of players, but if kespa's player withdrawal was according to agreement or not. The whole point of the agreement was establishing relations. Esf experienced this withdrawal as a blow in the face.
I'm personally siding with esf in this. But that's a matter of opinion.
The point exactly would be if kespa's player withdrawal was according to agreement or not. that's why i tried to find the source for the agreement
establishing relations is something they are doing regardless of this whole thing, they are building infrastructure no matter how this ends. esf experiencing a blow in the face would surely depends again on whether or not there even was an agreement
"Director Oh from KeSPA said, "For the sake of long-term development of eSports, revitalizing StarCraft 2 leagues is important," and added, "We want to show the growth of the industry by respecting each other's league and having a fair competition." "
This is proof of an informal agreement. Not for the participation of players, but respecting each others leagues. And as i said before, the lack of participation was received as a blow in the face, because of a lack of respect for gom's league in the light of participation of esf's player in osl.
Thanks for clearing that up, heres where we get to the core! Is an informal agreement enough to justify this kind of behavior? I don't think it's necessarily a lack of respect to wait a season or 2 for something that could basically cost the life of kespa if the players flop. i know i seem kind of anal about this, it just really pains me for people to mindlessly jump the bandwagon and hate on kespa every time they see a crack in their armor. i'm also not 100% against it, i'm no extremist. i do understand and feel the hype and i'm glad we get to finally see the bw pros in action, but 2 things worry me - a full kespa flop and the increasing zombie reddit-like behavior ruining everything
Thank you for having a summery of everything, it was a little hard to follow because I noticed it about half way through it all. But I did agree with Kespa saying their players aren't ready for GSL 4, but I can't wait to see them in GSL 5
Yay! More games for KeSPA players. Gotta agree with that. Now let's hope SKorean corporates forgive Blizzard for doing this. Maybe they won't, in which case it's back to the trenches for eSports...
EPT
