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On August 20 2012 20:43 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 20:40 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 20:34 NicolBolas wrote:On August 20 2012 17:53 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 17:48 boxman22 wrote:On August 20 2012 17:40 Tobberoth wrote:
Your arguments are irrelevant. It doesn't matter IF you can play a certain way vs all races, the point is that you don't WANT to because it doesn't improve your game. There's is depth in SC2 in how you have different styles for all matchups, and that grows from the start of the game. You can scout on 9, sure, but there's no guarantee you'll scout your opponent fast enough to decide on opening build on some maps, so you'll have to scout even earlier, which messes up your economy.
Basically, your whole argument is something along the lines of "Random is a fourth race, you have to play differently vs randoms or you're doing it wrong", when my point is there's no fucking need, just have the race show up on the loading screen. There's no con to that, and massive benefit. Hell, the opponent shouldn't even have to know you're playing random, he's just having another normal game.
If the information advantage is so extremely minor, like you guys are saying, what's the argument for NOT removing it, when it makes the game more boring for your opponents? Ah finally the complaints. If you're below grandmaster, then you have more than enough things to work on that "wasting your time" beating a cheese with a highly defensive standard opener is going to help you. Scouting on 9 is not to decide your opener but to scout the cheese that most people seem to expect. And yes, random should be treated like a 4th race. The massive benefit is, in essence, a 4TH RACE without creating one. Just because you don't like to have to think doesn't mean that Blizz should get rid of a portion of the game. The information advantage is minor but it exists. It doesn't make the game more boring because, apparently, you have literally no clue how to deal with random. Learning how to deal with random should be a goal of yours and then all of a sudden, more fun! More strategies to have to think of. More openings to deal with. More new situations to be in. Random is great and should be left alone. So basically, your whole argument comes down to ad hominem. I apparently suck against randoms (which I don't. You hold their pathetic cheese and crush them because they are terrible and play random to cheese using an unfair advantage) and I don't think, which is why I don't want a 4th race. Truth is, it's NOT a forth race, no matter how much you'd like to think so. It's a dice throw, coupled with an unfair information advatange which makes the game boring. Nothing else. As soon as you hold their pathetic cheese, or at least get to the midgame after using a suboptimal build, it's just a normal vT, vP or vZ game, only difference being that you're opening might have sucked against said race so you're not at the economy you'd like... but you still win, because random players are, generally, shit in the late game since they don't know the races as well. Random is not great, and not fun. it does not add more openings and more strategies. It adds a block to properly using your strategies which you've made up for the real matchups. Which is why a lot of players, including IIRC some pros, who simply leave games vs randoms because it's not part of their traning "learning" to play a matchup with a suboptimal opening. Random is a fourth race. You have to prepare different builds, just as you would for the other three races. The game displays it differently from the other three races on the load screen. Etc. In every way, you have to treat vR differently than you would any other race. What you're trying to do is turn it from being a fourth race to a player just rolling dice on which race to pick. You're trying to remove an element from the game, just because you personally do not like it. Who are you to decide what "properly using your strategies" and "real matchups" are? BTW, is it wrong if all this QQ is making me want to start playing random? Your definition of a race is pretty damn open if "having it's own loading screen picture" makes it a race. Random is not a race. If I play a random and he gets Zergs, it's identical to me playing a zerg, I don't need to change everything. The ONLY thing which changes anything is the fact that I know he will probably cheese me AND I don't know which opening I can do optimally Then it's not identical to you playing Zerg, is it? If you have to do something differently vX then you do vY, then it's a different matchup. Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 20:40 Tobberoth wrote:
so I have to do a safe unsatisfying opening. After that point, there's literally nothing different about it.
Whether it is an unsafe opening is up you you and your skills. Whether it is unsatisfying is up to your opinion. And since the opening dictates the pace of the game, it will be quite different from a regular match.
I hope you're realizing that you're more or less saying "A ZvT matchup is a COMPLETELY different matchup if the Z did a non-hatch first opening", because that's exactly what Random is. It's a normal run in the mill matchup, only that you don't know which opening to do. Would it be a fifth race if I could play terran but it actually shows as random to my opponent?
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On August 20 2012 20:40 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 20:34 NicolBolas wrote:On August 20 2012 17:53 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 17:48 boxman22 wrote:On August 20 2012 17:40 Tobberoth wrote:
Your arguments are irrelevant. It doesn't matter IF you can play a certain way vs all races, the point is that you don't WANT to because it doesn't improve your game. There's is depth in SC2 in how you have different styles for all matchups, and that grows from the start of the game. You can scout on 9, sure, but there's no guarantee you'll scout your opponent fast enough to decide on opening build on some maps, so you'll have to scout even earlier, which messes up your economy.
Basically, your whole argument is something along the lines of "Random is a fourth race, you have to play differently vs randoms or you're doing it wrong", when my point is there's no fucking need, just have the race show up on the loading screen. There's no con to that, and massive benefit. Hell, the opponent shouldn't even have to know you're playing random, he's just having another normal game.
If the information advantage is so extremely minor, like you guys are saying, what's the argument for NOT removing it, when it makes the game more boring for your opponents? Ah finally the complaints. If you're below grandmaster, then you have more than enough things to work on that "wasting your time" beating a cheese with a highly defensive standard opener is going to help you. Scouting on 9 is not to decide your opener but to scout the cheese that most people seem to expect. And yes, random should be treated like a 4th race. The massive benefit is, in essence, a 4TH RACE without creating one. Just because you don't like to have to think doesn't mean that Blizz should get rid of a portion of the game. The information advantage is minor but it exists. It doesn't make the game more boring because, apparently, you have literally no clue how to deal with random. Learning how to deal with random should be a goal of yours and then all of a sudden, more fun! More strategies to have to think of. More openings to deal with. More new situations to be in. Random is great and should be left alone. So basically, your whole argument comes down to ad hominem. I apparently suck against randoms (which I don't. You hold their pathetic cheese and crush them because they are terrible and play random to cheese using an unfair advantage) and I don't think, which is why I don't want a 4th race. Truth is, it's NOT a forth race, no matter how much you'd like to think so. It's a dice throw, coupled with an unfair information advatange which makes the game boring. Nothing else. As soon as you hold their pathetic cheese, or at least get to the midgame after using a suboptimal build, it's just a normal vT, vP or vZ game, only difference being that you're opening might have sucked against said race so you're not at the economy you'd like... but you still win, because random players are, generally, shit in the late game since they don't know the races as well. Random is not great, and not fun. it does not add more openings and more strategies. It adds a block to properly using your strategies which you've made up for the real matchups. Which is why a lot of players, including IIRC some pros, who simply leave games vs randoms because it's not part of their traning "learning" to play a matchup with a suboptimal opening. Random is a fourth race. You have to prepare different builds, just as you would for the other three races. The game displays it differently from the other three races on the load screen. Etc. In every way, you have to treat vR differently than you would any other race. What you're trying to do is turn it from being a fourth race to a player just rolling dice on which race to pick. You're trying to remove an element from the game, just because you personally do not like it. Who are you to decide what "properly using your strategies" and "real matchups" are? BTW, is it wrong if all this QQ is making me want to start playing random? Your definition of a race is pretty damn open if "having it's own loading screen picture" makes it a race. Random is not a race. If I play a random and he gets Zerg, it's identical to me playing a normal zerg, I don't need to change anything past the opening. The ONLY thing which changes anything is the fact that I know he will probably cheese me AND I don't know which opening I can do optimally, so I have to do a safe unsatisfying opening. After that point, there's literally nothing different about it. If you find this is enough to call a forth race, cool by me and lovely for blizzard, they could add a ton more races to this game so easily. How about tetoss? Basically, you have your own loading screen, and you spawn as either protoss or terran!!
Random is a part of the game and has been for 14 years.
Nobody leaves the game because random is in.
If you remove random, people WILL leave the game.
Thus Blizzard will not remove it anytime soon.
Deal with it the way you want, you will never stop playing SC2 because of random anyway.
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On August 20 2012 18:25 freakhill wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 18:03 Godwrath wrote:On August 20 2012 06:51 rd wrote:On August 20 2012 05:55 cydial wrote:On August 20 2012 04:36 Sepheren wrote:
Random is definitely an unfair advantage. You begin the game with information dissymmetry, the random player has more information than his opponent. That right there is justification for why it should not exist the way it does.
Random should be an option which relieves the player of having to choose his/her race, yet does not hide that information from the matched opponent.
I have no opinions on WHO plays random, or their personal playstyles. My issue is with the game design, which is flawed. Well put. This reason is exactly why random is banned from tournaments. You the random player start with an advantage over your opponent from the start. Actually I wanna rant more at this. Because the notion that random has an advantage at the start is apparently so overwhelming, that no one plays random competitively. Just some figures: Of all the major tournaments (that I care to list), 0 random players have won GSL. 0 random players have won MLG. 0 random players have won ESL. 0 random players have won IPL. 0 random players have won NASL. 0 random players have won Dreamhack. 0 random players have won HSC. Name a tournament I didn't list so I can say 0. Of all the players in grandmasters, NA has three. EU has one. KOR has zero. Of all the players in masters, 4.2% of NA play random. 3.1% of EU play random. 3.7% of KOR play random. Anything below and you're probably just much worse than your opponent. I love the way this thread was summarized: first world problems. You know, most tourneys doesn't allow random... for a very obvious reason. Name them please
I was about to ask this as well, which tournaments don't allow random?
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On August 20 2012 20:28 Avicularia wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 19:51 Lorch wrote:
Honestly I'd have 0 problem with random if the fucking game would just show the race during the loading screen instead of random.
Honestly I'd have 0 problem with terran if the fucking game would just show me what's behind his wall in main. Random race is part of this game and it's the hardest one. I really would love to see great random pro player in torunament doing well. That would give so much more adrenaline. About the ladder. Random is just another race so they have also about 50% winrate. That is, you have about 50% to win. How is this not balanced?
Did you seriously compare perfect information with knowing ones race? As I said I am a random player myself and I let my opponents know my race because I'd rather play real games then get an advantage for having to play all matchups...
Also lol at saying 50% winrate equals balance in a system that is programmed to put everyone at 50/50.
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for what its worth this is what i find as a zerg against random players . .the MU's are quite easy in 90% of the cases
i wanted to find all my random replays (im now adding a ZvRZ to my rep names ^^ cos i cant find them)
a random Z either mass lings 21-31 supply of them
a random toss - immortal timing or 4gate or mass proxy zealots
a random terran - mostly go for the bunker rush 2 rax Or a standard heliions into 1 cloacked banshee and then MMM but you can clearly see when its not their prefered MU as they cant drop and multitask so you nearly always wina base race
I see where you are coming from but as a z player i have a pre set opening for all mu and then depending on the drone scout and the 5 min ovie scout is where i start the teching
my vs random mu is alwaus 15G15P15Hatch
edit: just to add why in tournament conditions would you choose to play random, im a butterfly swimmer . . why would i practice front crawl?
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Well as P I just open pylon in main. Then pylon scout and then either 13 gate or nexus first, depends on what I scout. If i scout fast pool i just make another gate and pylon and wall off no problem.
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On August 20 2012 20:49 freakhill wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 20:40 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 20:34 NicolBolas wrote:On August 20 2012 17:53 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 17:48 boxman22 wrote:On August 20 2012 17:40 Tobberoth wrote:
Your arguments are irrelevant. It doesn't matter IF you can play a certain way vs all races, the point is that you don't WANT to because it doesn't improve your game. There's is depth in SC2 in how you have different styles for all matchups, and that grows from the start of the game. You can scout on 9, sure, but there's no guarantee you'll scout your opponent fast enough to decide on opening build on some maps, so you'll have to scout even earlier, which messes up your economy.
Basically, your whole argument is something along the lines of "Random is a fourth race, you have to play differently vs randoms or you're doing it wrong", when my point is there's no fucking need, just have the race show up on the loading screen. There's no con to that, and massive benefit. Hell, the opponent shouldn't even have to know you're playing random, he's just having another normal game.
If the information advantage is so extremely minor, like you guys are saying, what's the argument for NOT removing it, when it makes the game more boring for your opponents? Ah finally the complaints. If you're below grandmaster, then you have more than enough things to work on that "wasting your time" beating a cheese with a highly defensive standard opener is going to help you. Scouting on 9 is not to decide your opener but to scout the cheese that most people seem to expect. And yes, random should be treated like a 4th race. The massive benefit is, in essence, a 4TH RACE without creating one. Just because you don't like to have to think doesn't mean that Blizz should get rid of a portion of the game. The information advantage is minor but it exists. It doesn't make the game more boring because, apparently, you have literally no clue how to deal with random. Learning how to deal with random should be a goal of yours and then all of a sudden, more fun! More strategies to have to think of. More openings to deal with. More new situations to be in. Random is great and should be left alone. So basically, your whole argument comes down to ad hominem. I apparently suck against randoms (which I don't. You hold their pathetic cheese and crush them because they are terrible and play random to cheese using an unfair advantage) and I don't think, which is why I don't want a 4th race. Truth is, it's NOT a forth race, no matter how much you'd like to think so. It's a dice throw, coupled with an unfair information advatange which makes the game boring. Nothing else. As soon as you hold their pathetic cheese, or at least get to the midgame after using a suboptimal build, it's just a normal vT, vP or vZ game, only difference being that you're opening might have sucked against said race so you're not at the economy you'd like... but you still win, because random players are, generally, shit in the late game since they don't know the races as well. Random is not great, and not fun. it does not add more openings and more strategies. It adds a block to properly using your strategies which you've made up for the real matchups. Which is why a lot of players, including IIRC some pros, who simply leave games vs randoms because it's not part of their traning "learning" to play a matchup with a suboptimal opening. Random is a fourth race. You have to prepare different builds, just as you would for the other three races. The game displays it differently from the other three races on the load screen. Etc. In every way, you have to treat vR differently than you would any other race. What you're trying to do is turn it from being a fourth race to a player just rolling dice on which race to pick. You're trying to remove an element from the game, just because you personally do not like it. Who are you to decide what "properly using your strategies" and "real matchups" are? BTW, is it wrong if all this QQ is making me want to start playing random? Your definition of a race is pretty damn open if "having it's own loading screen picture" makes it a race. Random is not a race. If I play a random and he gets Zerg, it's identical to me playing a normal zerg, I don't need to change anything past the opening. The ONLY thing which changes anything is the fact that I know he will probably cheese me AND I don't know which opening I can do optimally, so I have to do a safe unsatisfying opening. After that point, there's literally nothing different about it. If you find this is enough to call a forth race, cool by me and lovely for blizzard, they could add a ton more races to this game so easily. How about tetoss? Basically, you have your own loading screen, and you spawn as either protoss or terran!! Random is a part of the game and has been for 14 years. Nobody leaves the game because random is in. If you remove random, people WILL leave the game. Thus Blizzard will not remove it anytime soon. Deal with it the way you want, you will never stop playing SC2 because of random anyway.
You're right, I won't leave the game because random is in. That doesn't mean I can't be in a topic about it, arguing that it sucks and could be easily fixed by Blizzard.
And people who would leave the game because Random being forced to show their race at load, I would not be sad to see them go, they are worse that normal cheesers, who are bad enough as is.
Another easy way Blizzard could fix random: Make it work like any other competitive game, such as fighting games. Make random a button which picks a race at random, before you even press find match.
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On August 20 2012 21:01 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 20:49 freakhill wrote:On August 20 2012 20:40 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 20:34 NicolBolas wrote:On August 20 2012 17:53 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 17:48 boxman22 wrote:On August 20 2012 17:40 Tobberoth wrote:
Your arguments are irrelevant. It doesn't matter IF you can play a certain way vs all races, the point is that you don't WANT to because it doesn't improve your game. There's is depth in SC2 in how you have different styles for all matchups, and that grows from the start of the game. You can scout on 9, sure, but there's no guarantee you'll scout your opponent fast enough to decide on opening build on some maps, so you'll have to scout even earlier, which messes up your economy.
Basically, your whole argument is something along the lines of "Random is a fourth race, you have to play differently vs randoms or you're doing it wrong", when my point is there's no fucking need, just have the race show up on the loading screen. There's no con to that, and massive benefit. Hell, the opponent shouldn't even have to know you're playing random, he's just having another normal game.
If the information advantage is so extremely minor, like you guys are saying, what's the argument for NOT removing it, when it makes the game more boring for your opponents? Ah finally the complaints. If you're below grandmaster, then you have more than enough things to work on that "wasting your time" beating a cheese with a highly defensive standard opener is going to help you. Scouting on 9 is not to decide your opener but to scout the cheese that most people seem to expect. And yes, random should be treated like a 4th race. The massive benefit is, in essence, a 4TH RACE without creating one. Just because you don't like to have to think doesn't mean that Blizz should get rid of a portion of the game. The information advantage is minor but it exists. It doesn't make the game more boring because, apparently, you have literally no clue how to deal with random. Learning how to deal with random should be a goal of yours and then all of a sudden, more fun! More strategies to have to think of. More openings to deal with. More new situations to be in. Random is great and should be left alone. So basically, your whole argument comes down to ad hominem. I apparently suck against randoms (which I don't. You hold their pathetic cheese and crush them because they are terrible and play random to cheese using an unfair advantage) and I don't think, which is why I don't want a 4th race. Truth is, it's NOT a forth race, no matter how much you'd like to think so. It's a dice throw, coupled with an unfair information advatange which makes the game boring. Nothing else. As soon as you hold their pathetic cheese, or at least get to the midgame after using a suboptimal build, it's just a normal vT, vP or vZ game, only difference being that you're opening might have sucked against said race so you're not at the economy you'd like... but you still win, because random players are, generally, shit in the late game since they don't know the races as well. Random is not great, and not fun. it does not add more openings and more strategies. It adds a block to properly using your strategies which you've made up for the real matchups. Which is why a lot of players, including IIRC some pros, who simply leave games vs randoms because it's not part of their traning "learning" to play a matchup with a suboptimal opening. Random is a fourth race. You have to prepare different builds, just as you would for the other three races. The game displays it differently from the other three races on the load screen. Etc. In every way, you have to treat vR differently than you would any other race. What you're trying to do is turn it from being a fourth race to a player just rolling dice on which race to pick. You're trying to remove an element from the game, just because you personally do not like it. Who are you to decide what "properly using your strategies" and "real matchups" are? BTW, is it wrong if all this QQ is making me want to start playing random? Your definition of a race is pretty damn open if "having it's own loading screen picture" makes it a race. Random is not a race. If I play a random and he gets Zerg, it's identical to me playing a normal zerg, I don't need to change anything past the opening. The ONLY thing which changes anything is the fact that I know he will probably cheese me AND I don't know which opening I can do optimally, so I have to do a safe unsatisfying opening. After that point, there's literally nothing different about it. If you find this is enough to call a forth race, cool by me and lovely for blizzard, they could add a ton more races to this game so easily. How about tetoss? Basically, you have your own loading screen, and you spawn as either protoss or terran!! Random is a part of the game and has been for 14 years. Nobody leaves the game because random is in. If you remove random, people WILL leave the game. Thus Blizzard will not remove it anytime soon. Deal with it the way you want, you will never stop playing SC2 because of random anyway. You're right, I won't leave the game because random is in. That doesn't mean I can't be in a topic about it, arguing that it sucks and could be easily fixed by Blizzard. And people who would leave the game because Random being forced to show their race at load, I would not be sad to see them go, they are worse that normal cheesers, who are bad enough as is. Another easy way Blizzard could fix random: Make it work like any other competitive game, such as fighting games. Make random a button which picks a race at random, before you even press find match.
but there is nothing to fix, random is working as intended.
it is a fun alternative to the 3 other races that do not offset the balance of the game (weakest results). it is made for people that like weird games and/or want to mindfuck their opponents and/or do not want to choose a race because they judge it boring. Blizzard care a lot more about keeping these people playing the game than about satisfying the haters, that won't leave the game anyway.
You have to keep in mind that the lack of information provided by the random choice is a focal point of the race.
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On August 20 2012 21:01 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 20:49 freakhill wrote:On August 20 2012 20:40 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 20:34 NicolBolas wrote:On August 20 2012 17:53 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 17:48 boxman22 wrote:On August 20 2012 17:40 Tobberoth wrote:
Your arguments are irrelevant. It doesn't matter IF you can play a certain way vs all races, the point is that you don't WANT to because it doesn't improve your game. There's is depth in SC2 in how you have different styles for all matchups, and that grows from the start of the game. You can scout on 9, sure, but there's no guarantee you'll scout your opponent fast enough to decide on opening build on some maps, so you'll have to scout even earlier, which messes up your economy.
Basically, your whole argument is something along the lines of "Random is a fourth race, you have to play differently vs randoms or you're doing it wrong", when my point is there's no fucking need, just have the race show up on the loading screen. There's no con to that, and massive benefit. Hell, the opponent shouldn't even have to know you're playing random, he's just having another normal game.
If the information advantage is so extremely minor, like you guys are saying, what's the argument for NOT removing it, when it makes the game more boring for your opponents? Ah finally the complaints. If you're below grandmaster, then you have more than enough things to work on that "wasting your time" beating a cheese with a highly defensive standard opener is going to help you. Scouting on 9 is not to decide your opener but to scout the cheese that most people seem to expect. And yes, random should be treated like a 4th race. The massive benefit is, in essence, a 4TH RACE without creating one. Just because you don't like to have to think doesn't mean that Blizz should get rid of a portion of the game. The information advantage is minor but it exists. It doesn't make the game more boring because, apparently, you have literally no clue how to deal with random. Learning how to deal with random should be a goal of yours and then all of a sudden, more fun! More strategies to have to think of. More openings to deal with. More new situations to be in. Random is great and should be left alone. So basically, your whole argument comes down to ad hominem. I apparently suck against randoms (which I don't. You hold their pathetic cheese and crush them because they are terrible and play random to cheese using an unfair advantage) and I don't think, which is why I don't want a 4th race. Truth is, it's NOT a forth race, no matter how much you'd like to think so. It's a dice throw, coupled with an unfair information advatange which makes the game boring. Nothing else. As soon as you hold their pathetic cheese, or at least get to the midgame after using a suboptimal build, it's just a normal vT, vP or vZ game, only difference being that you're opening might have sucked against said race so you're not at the economy you'd like... but you still win, because random players are, generally, shit in the late game since they don't know the races as well. Random is not great, and not fun. it does not add more openings and more strategies. It adds a block to properly using your strategies which you've made up for the real matchups. Which is why a lot of players, including IIRC some pros, who simply leave games vs randoms because it's not part of their traning "learning" to play a matchup with a suboptimal opening. Random is a fourth race. You have to prepare different builds, just as you would for the other three races. The game displays it differently from the other three races on the load screen. Etc. In every way, you have to treat vR differently than you would any other race. What you're trying to do is turn it from being a fourth race to a player just rolling dice on which race to pick. You're trying to remove an element from the game, just because you personally do not like it. Who are you to decide what "properly using your strategies" and "real matchups" are? BTW, is it wrong if all this QQ is making me want to start playing random? Your definition of a race is pretty damn open if "having it's own loading screen picture" makes it a race. Random is not a race. If I play a random and he gets Zerg, it's identical to me playing a normal zerg, I don't need to change anything past the opening. The ONLY thing which changes anything is the fact that I know he will probably cheese me AND I don't know which opening I can do optimally, so I have to do a safe unsatisfying opening. After that point, there's literally nothing different about it. If you find this is enough to call a forth race, cool by me and lovely for blizzard, they could add a ton more races to this game so easily. How about tetoss? Basically, you have your own loading screen, and you spawn as either protoss or terran!! Random is a part of the game and has been for 14 years. Nobody leaves the game because random is in. If you remove random, people WILL leave the game. Thus Blizzard will not remove it anytime soon. Deal with it the way you want, you will never stop playing SC2 because of random anyway. You're right, I won't leave the game because random is in. That doesn't mean I can't be in a topic about it, arguing that it sucks and could be easily fixed by Blizzard. And people who would leave the game because Random being forced to show their race at load, I would not be sad to see them go, they are worse that normal cheesers, who are bad enough as is. Another easy way Blizzard could fix random: Make it work like any other competitive game, such as fighting games. Make random a button which picks a race at random, before you even press find match.
I'm sorry, but you're just coming off as a whiny complainer. If the advantage of random were so large, we would see professional random players --- we don't. If you're having a tough time against randoms, play better, random is inferior to selecting a race.
As to the "It's not a real XvX matchup because the openings are different" or "it won't help me get better because the opening is different". It's rubbish, playing against a random puts you in a different situation, knocks you off your typical playstyle. It can be very useful to play against a good random player, you start in a small hole and you need to play differently from how you normally play to get out of it. Just because an opening isn't standard doesn't mean there's nothing to learn from it. It's tantamount to complaining about a player going for a 2 base aggressive build if you wanted to play a macro game.
Some players like to play random and have their race hidden. Why should your enjoyment be more important than their enjoyment?
Finally, how many times do you actually run into random players? Back in beta or first couple of seasons it was maybe 10% for me, nowadays I'ld say maybe 2-3% of players I run into are random.
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Here I looked up the stats for everyone: www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all You see how randoms pool towards the bronze and there are fewer and fewer as you go towards grandmaster? That's because random is much more difficult. I reiterate if everyone thinks cheesing as random is so easy, they should just go try it. Spend tonight playing 10-15 matches as random (I assume you're going to go as hardcore cheese as possible = 5-10 minute matches) and keep track of your record. If you really want a challenge, try to learn to play the races correctly and see how crushed you get.
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Whenever I played random, I always gave my race to anyone who said "gl hf" or something similar. Later on I begun quizzing people for my race, as that is much more fun, but have never lied. Of course you can't always believe your opponent, but anyone who has played me more than twice stopped doubting it.
Oh also: I was a high masters Terran for 3 seasons before playing a season of Random, where I dropped to diamond before I quit.
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On August 20 2012 19:56 Tchado wrote:
It has been mentioned on this thread before , but I would love it if blizzard display's the random race during the loading screen , this way the random player gets to play whatever race he gets and the opposition isn't at a disadvantage early on. You are not at a disadvantage. You get matches versus a player because of the expected win chance of 50%, regardless of race. You cannot open with the perfect BO since you need to scout very early, but you still have the same chance of winning the game because this is how the match-making works.
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On August 20 2012 20:52 Lorch wrote:
Also lol at saying 50% winrate equals balance in a system that is programmed to put everyone at 50/50.
It makes sense actually. Poeple whine that they lose to random and they're OP. If they have 50% chance to win how is it not fair? Also random players need to put much more effort to improve than all those whiners.
EDIT: I would rather like to see threads like "How to improve random, se we can see pro players choosing it" or something like that. Makes much more sense at the momment when there is almost no random players in masters and higher.
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If those who go Random does it to cheese only, then they would benefit from it if their race showed instead of "Random" at the loading screen. This is because everyone will scout a random player at 9, no matter what (at least for Zerg and Protoss).
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On August 20 2012 22:02 Adrianzo wrote:
If those who go Random does it to cheese only, then they would benefit from it if their race showed instead of "Random" at the loading screen. This is because everyone will scout a random player at 9, no matter what (at least for Zerg and Protoss).
This.
I have no idea where comes the myth of random cheesers from. Actually as a random player I'm getting cheesed a lot, but it's fine for me.
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On August 20 2012 17:09 nicknack wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 16:59 boxman22 wrote:On August 20 2012 16:56 VyingsP wrote:
If there was at least one progamer who played Random, I would be such a fan. On August 20 2012 16:54 Psyclon wrote:
Personally, i wish i was good enough to play random. I even dream of winning GSL with random Why? Because this shows you have mastered all races and all match-ups Seriously it would be so cool if there were someone good enough to play random at a professional level Didn't GuineaPig play random in gsl team league all the time. If the load screen shows both races, should be standard, any advantage of not knowing the race goes away. When I play random I would love to know the race before hand even if its only a few seconds, have my build ready, my scout paterns, know what to look for cheese wise and ovi placements if zerg, I know its only a new seconds but I think it would be great.
i would rather say not to show both players' race in screen
that's more fun
and many builds should be refined
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Random should be revealed what race he spawns as in the loading screen. I don't have anythign against random players myself either, but it does fuckup the matchup a ton. If you want to play all the matchups, good on you. But it should not affect your opponent. Random is not "a race", but it is behaving like one right now.
Random players can go whine all they want with "but we have to learn 9 matchups", that is your choice. you're the one who's choosing to be a jack of all trades and master of none. You should not have an extra bonus in form of your opponent having to scout a lot earlier than he wants to and possibly go the wrong build.
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On August 20 2012 22:04 Avicularia wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 22:02 Adrianzo wrote:
If those who go Random does it to cheese only, then they would benefit from it if their race showed instead of "Random" at the loading screen. This is because everyone will scout a random player at 9, no matter what (at least for Zerg and Protoss). This. I have no idea where comes the myth of random cheesers from. Actually as a random player I'm getting cheesed a lot, but it's fine for me.
Pretty much, I get cheesed a LOT when I used to play random/when I smurf random, because they assume I won't scout or they don't want to play against random or whatever. I still standard scout in all matchups when I play random (don't try to "not scout" to hide my race).
After reading this thread I smurfed as random yesterday, played a guy who asked me for my race, told it to him (I was Z, he was T), he proceeded to try and proxy 2rax me but because I standard 12scouted in the ZvT matchup I caught it and it was an easy win.
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We're finally here. The day has come when people are arguing that Random is imbalanced. Wow...
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On August 20 2012 20:58 StatixEx wrote:
for what its worth this is what i find as a zerg against random players . .the MU's are quite easy in 90% of the cases
i wanted to find all my random replays (im now adding a ZvRZ to my rep names ^^ cos i cant find them)
a random Z either mass lings 21-31 supply of them
a random toss - immortal timing or 4gate or mass proxy zealots
a random terran - mostly go for the bunker rush 2 rax Or a standard heliions into 1 cloacked banshee and then MMM but you can clearly see when its not their prefered MU as they cant drop and multitask so you nearly always wina base race
I see where you are coming from but as a z player i have a pre set opening for all mu and then depending on the drone scout and the 5 min ovie scout is where i start the teching
my vs random mu is alwaus 15G15P15Hatch
edit: just to add why in tournament conditions would you choose to play random, im a butterfly swimmer . . why would i practice front crawl?
its not all truth what you say! You forget that most randoms started with1 race maybe then even switched races then ended up playing random! Same with me I started with toss then played terran for 6 moths and now random only so my zerg is lacking wich is keeping me in a lower leaugue then I would only playing terran/toss. Wich means if you play me and I spawn terran or toss I can use all builds and openings while if I spwan zerg I would be limited!
but still having good winrate with zerg because vs t you kinda have an advantage because you can keep droning behind 6 queens. and vs Z i can go hatch first wich usualy means an eco lead
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EPT
