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People need to stop with the whole "random gets an unfair advantage" thing. If you meet a random player on ladder, they have the same MMR as you and the match is around 50-50 as to which way it will go. This is calculated from their previous results WHICH INCLUDE THE ADVANTAGE OF SPAWNING RANDOM.
THUS RANDOM IS ALREADY ACCOUNTED FOR WITHIN THEIR MMR SCORE. You are balanced AFTER you include that fact, so you and your random opponent are still level, i.e. you are not at a disadvantage.
Edit: To clarify further for the hard-of-reading:
Any random opponent you meet will be slightly worse than you, which is compensated for by their random information advantage. Take this away by scouting and you are effectively trading a few minerals to force a straight-up game against someone worse than you.
Of course, if you're playing to improve that's no help. But let's hear no more of the "boo-hoo, its not fair, I'm at a disadvantage against random" rubbish.
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while my experiance of random is same as most lot of cheese (not sure this is cause they always cheese more than they good with 2 out of 3 races and when they get the other race they just cheese)
I would say to the OP guessing you always FFE vs zerg do you also always do a certain start vs other 2 if so you need a 4th opening thats good vs all geared towards being best vs zerg to make you comfortable vs your worse matchup SC2 is more about mentality than you think
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On August 21 2012 00:10 FairForever wrote:
9scout - problem solved.
Still at a disadvantage because I only 9 scout in ZvT.
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As a toss, i used to cheese every random i encountered, while kindly asking them to die as the fucking cheesers they are, even sometimes continuing after the game finished if they were bad.
Now i first ask their race (even adding a gl hf before) and play as i would if they answer, and only cheese+bm when they dont answer (or when they lie, but then the cheese is usually pretty bad, and they get *2 the bm for that).
People need to stop with the whole "random gets an unfair advantage" thing. If you meet a random player on ladder, they have the same MMR as you and the match is around 50-50 as to which way it will go. This is calculated from their previous results WHICH INCLUDE THE ADVANTAGE OF SPAWNING RANDOM.
THUS RANDOM IS ALREADY ACCOUNTED FOR WITHIN THEIR MMR SCORE. You are balanced AFTER you include that fact, so you and your random opponent are still level, i.e. you are not at a disadvantage.
Edit: To clarify further for the hard-of-reading:
Any random opponent you meet will be slightly worse than you, which is compensated for by their random information advantage. Take this away by scouting and you are effectively trading a few minerals to force a straight-up game against someone worse than you.
Of course, if you're playing to improve that's no help. But let's hear no more of the "boo-hoo, its not fair, I'm at a disadvantage against random" rubbish.
Please tell me how you beat a cheeser (aka random player) that hatch first when you have to go gate first ? (especially on maps like daybreak)
Even if you're slightly better than him, you don't have the two ligue difference it takes to balance such a bo loss.
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On August 20 2012 18:26 playa wrote:
Say ffe is the optimal build versus zerg. How early does toss have to scout to be able to still ffe? Unless you can make ffe viable in every matchup, then this has to be an advantage for you, unless you want to make a good argument for why players are making a mistake by not scouting this early versus non random opponents. When you choose random, why wouldn't you scout with, say, your first worker? I would say thank god people that don't see the advantage aren't working on balancing this game, but then again, with the lack of a fix... maybe they are. Again, random is too rare the higher you go, so I don't intend on facing it that often, but it's just so silly to me that they won't make it fair.
There is NO optimal build in a good strategy game. That would be imbalanced and stale. Multiple styles and builds are viable, even in PvZ, hence why people are saying that you don't have to FFE in PvZ. Not being able to do the build you want to do is not a disadvantage. Having to scout earlier doesn't put you at a disadvantage. Having less minerals from sending out the scout doesn't put you behind because you got information on the opening build in return, it's a trade.
In a strategy game like SC2 there are asymetrical advantages and disadvantages; a zerg may open hatch first and try to secure an economic advantage, but he has to sacrifice an army and tech advantage in that time to do so. A protoss could not FFE and be behind in the economic aspect but that doesn't mean you are actually behind in the game, as you have advantages in other aspects of the strategy game.
Everyone whining about being at a disadvantage has yet to show that they are actually at a disadvantage, which is quite difficult and probably impossible to make a case for in less than a page of text for such a complicated game. And even if they were at a disadvantage, no game of SC2 is ever lost because of only one thing. It is always a combination several factors which cause a loss; solely your opponent being random is not what made you lose the game.
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On August 21 2012 00:35 falaakr wrote:As a toss, i used to cheese every random i encountered, while kindly asking them to die as the fucking cheesers they are, even sometimes continuing after the game finished if they were bad. Now i first ask their race (even adding a gl hf before) and play as i would if they answer, and only cheese+bm when they dont answer (or when they lie, but then the cheese is usually pretty bad, and they get *2 the bm for that). Show nested quote +People need to stop with the whole "random gets an unfair advantage" thing. If you meet a random player on ladder, they have the same MMR as you and the match is around 50-50 as to which way it will go. This is calculated from their previous results WHICH INCLUDE THE ADVANTAGE OF SPAWNING RANDOM.
THUS RANDOM IS ALREADY ACCOUNTED FOR WITHIN THEIR MMR SCORE. You are balanced AFTER you include that fact, so you and your random opponent are still level, i.e. you are not at a disadvantage.
Edit: To clarify further for the hard-of-reading:
Any random opponent you meet will be slightly worse than you, which is compensated for by their random information advantage. Take this away by scouting and you are effectively trading a few minerals to force a straight-up game against someone worse than you.
Of course, if you're playing to improve that's no help. But let's hear no more of the "boo-hoo, its not fair, I'm at a disadvantage against random" rubbish. Please tell me how you beat a cheeser (aka random player) that hatch first when you have to go gate first ? (especially on maps like daybreak) Even if you're slightly better than him, you don't have the two ligue difference it takes to balance such a bo loss.
When your opponent goes hatch first you can easily go nexus first. Especially on maps like daybreak.
If it's a four player map where you don't scout him first you chrono out 3 zealots and attack after the first two. (When he does hatch first, his lings will be very late)
Or you just expand after gateway. Since a gate and a forge cost exactly the same your expansion is down at the same time as with a ffe. And don't tell me you cannon rush players who go hatch first. Every decent player can hold that off and be ahead. But judging from your post, you don't seem to be on a level where strategy even matters.
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On August 21 2012 00:35 falaakr wrote:As a toss, i used to cheese every random i encountered, while kindly asking them to die as the fucking cheesers they are, even sometimes continuing after the game finished if they were bad. Now i first ask their race (even adding a gl hf before) and play as i would if they answer, and only cheese+bm when they dont answer (or when they lie, but then the cheese is usually pretty bad, and they get *2 the bm for that). Show nested quote +People need to stop with the whole "random gets an unfair advantage" thing. If you meet a random player on ladder, they have the same MMR as you and the match is around 50-50 as to which way it will go. This is calculated from their previous results WHICH INCLUDE THE ADVANTAGE OF SPAWNING RANDOM.
THUS RANDOM IS ALREADY ACCOUNTED FOR WITHIN THEIR MMR SCORE. You are balanced AFTER you include that fact, so you and your random opponent are still level, i.e. you are not at a disadvantage.
Edit: To clarify further for the hard-of-reading:
Any random opponent you meet will be slightly worse than you, which is compensated for by their random information advantage. Take this away by scouting and you are effectively trading a few minerals to force a straight-up game against someone worse than you.
Of course, if you're playing to improve that's no help. But let's hear no more of the "boo-hoo, its not fair, I'm at a disadvantage against random" rubbish. Please tell me how you beat a cheeser (aka random player) that hatch first when you have to go gate first ? (especially on maps like daybreak) Even if you're slightly better than him, you don't have the two ligue difference it takes to balance such a bo loss.
I do a gateway expand and suitable followup a la Adelscott or Naniwa -which I have seen both of these players use successfully against hatch-first zergs at the pro level- and take it to a macro game where my superior play will give me an advantage. If these players can beat the opponents they have with this "build-order loss" then it's certainly nothing like as one-sided as you claim.
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The small advantage you get or disadvantage you have is the same as when playing another race, other then random, who chooses a different (wonky) build order (a build order you are not expecting) which results in you being slightly behind or ahead.
i really dont get what the problem is.
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last scout place find on big maps vs him going two hatch mass lings especially on taldarim is pure death  but u have to count with it they risk more than you and u know they will do 2 base or cheese in many cases so only play save.......
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On August 21 2012 00:24 FlukyS wrote:Still at a disadvantage because I only 9 scout in ZvT.
Still no disadvantage in reality because the match maker matches you versus opponents of equal skill.
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On August 21 2012 00:49 Artimo wrote:
The small advantage you get or disadvantage you have is the same as when playing another race, other then random, who chooses a different (wonky) build order (a build order you are not expecting) which results in you being slightly behind or ahead.
i really dont get what the problem is.
A player of at least a decent level would not do "wonky" build orders in a normal game.
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this thread brings luls. please people, i urge you to switch to random and try to maintain your ladder rank. you have no idea how much more skill you need
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random is really way to hard to play with
that being said the ability to throw your opponents off in the early game (for instance, i'm toss so where i put my first pylon (lowground or close to nexus for a 1gate fe or ffe?) against a random player can be quite the pain since i'm not going to 6 scout or something dumb like that)
people played random on wc3 too and I always thought it was pretty nifty honestly-its a good feature
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On August 21 2012 02:30 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 00:49 Artimo wrote:
The small advantage you get or disadvantage you have is the same as when playing another race, other then random, who chooses a different (wonky) build order (a build order you are not expecting) which results in you being slightly behind or ahead.
i really dont get what the problem is.
A player of at least a decent level would not do "wonky" build orders in a normal game.
even the pros do it. how often have you heard the casters say someone has a slight advantage because of the build order they did vs another?
and the likelyhood of someone not in GM doing a different (wonky) build is much larger.
people are making a mountain out of a mole hill.
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The game wasn't meant to have just one build order for the matchup i.e. ffe pvz. If it was the ge would be incredibly one dimensional. It seems you are complaining about the fact you can't use just one b.o. in every matchup vs a specific race. Innovation and forward thinking is part of the game. Just because a build isn't featured on youtube doesnt mean it isn't good.
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I guess what im trying to also say is the disadvantage or advantage one gets could just as easily be realized in any mirror matchup where you know you are playing a mirror matchup. perhaps even more so in mirror matchup then matchups of different races.
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the annoying thing about random players is that they have 1 strong race and 2 not so strong races. These 2 races are the only reason that they are in whatever league. for example a diamond random player with be a master zerg and then diamond level terran and protoss. As a result, if you get their "off" races, then you have a good game, if you get their strong race, then you just get raped.
Random really fucks up MMR sometimes in terms of weaker players being smashed by masters level players who are only in diamond because of their terrible ZvZ and ZvP...
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Anti-random is anti-fun.
I play this game for fun, and playing random is a big part of that. I rarely cheese. I will usually tell a person what race I am. I just want to play random, and I'd be a lot less inclined to play the game if I had to choose a race everytime I queue for a match.
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On August 21 2012 03:25 SpeCtor wrote:
the annoying thing about random players is that they have 1 strong race and 2 not so strong races. These 2 races are the only reason that they are in whatever league. for example a diamond random player with be a master zerg and then diamond level terran and protoss. As a result, if you get their "off" races, then you have a good game, if you get their strong race, then you just get raped.
Random really fucks up MMR sometimes in terms of weaker players being smashed by masters level players who are only in diamond because of their terrible ZvZ and ZvP...
not only that, i myself have best match ups and not particularly dependent on race. tvp, pvt, zvt, tvt are my best/favorite match ups and zvz, pvz at worst.
random was shunned in custom 1v1 games in bw, they'll ask you to pick race or kick you. i understand this because they want match up practice but ladder is different where it isn't about match up practice and just a 1v1 with no specifics. random gain no advantage as much as they lose advantage. you cannot see this per game because random plays a different game every time they click on that find match button. and the mmr takes care of imbalance on strong/weak match ups but how is this any different than anyone picking their race? pvt could be someone's best match up and pvz their worst, this is no different for random players too but just in wider range.
as said many times before, if a protoss player finds FFE is the only viable build order vz zerg, 1) blame blizzard for game design, 2) get better at gateway expand. its really no different than complaining that FFE should be viable in pvp also.
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EPT
