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On August 20 2012 22:11 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 22:04 Avicularia wrote:On August 20 2012 22:02 Adrianzo wrote:
If those who go Random does it to cheese only, then they would benefit from it if their race showed instead of "Random" at the loading screen. This is because everyone will scout a random player at 9, no matter what (at least for Zerg and Protoss). This. I have no idea where comes the myth of random cheesers from. Actually as a random player I'm getting cheesed a lot, but it's fine for me. Pretty much, I get cheesed a LOT when I used to play random/when I smurf random, because they assume I won't scout or they don't want to play against random or whatever. I still standard scout in all matchups when I play random (don't try to "not scout" to hide my race). After reading this thread I smurfed as random yesterday, played a guy who asked me for my race, told it to him (I was Z, he was T), he proceeded to try and proxy 2rax me but because I standard 12scouted in the ZvT matchup I caught it and it was an easy win.
A lot of people who play on the ladder plays to get good at their respective 3 matchups. If they meet a random, you already know its going to be a fucked game because you're going to have to play unnaturally until you find out what race your opponent is. A lot of the time the game will end up so unnatural that you don't feel like you're learning anything by it, and thus its much more effective to just 6pool or something of the sorts of get the match over with, so you can start a real match with someone else.
This affects Random players who just wants to learn all 9 matchups and not be cheesy as well, because their opponent will do stupid things either because of lack of scouting, or because he doesn't care about the game you're playing,
This problem would be eliminated if the race of the random player showed in the beginning.
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On August 20 2012 22:16 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 22:11 FairForever wrote:On August 20 2012 22:04 Avicularia wrote:On August 20 2012 22:02 Adrianzo wrote:
If those who go Random does it to cheese only, then they would benefit from it if their race showed instead of "Random" at the loading screen. This is because everyone will scout a random player at 9, no matter what (at least for Zerg and Protoss). This. I have no idea where comes the myth of random cheesers from. Actually as a random player I'm getting cheesed a lot, but it's fine for me. Pretty much, I get cheesed a LOT when I used to play random/when I smurf random, because they assume I won't scout or they don't want to play against random or whatever. I still standard scout in all matchups when I play random (don't try to "not scout" to hide my race). After reading this thread I smurfed as random yesterday, played a guy who asked me for my race, told it to him (I was Z, he was T), he proceeded to try and proxy 2rax me but because I standard 12scouted in the ZvT matchup I caught it and it was an easy win. A lot of people who play on the ladder plays to get good at their respective 3 matchups. If they meet a random, you already know its going to be a fucked game because you're going to have to play unnaturally until you find out what race your opponent is. A lot of the time the game will end up so unnatural that you don't feel like you're learning anything by it, and thus its much more effective to just 6pool or something of the sorts of get the match over with, so you can start a real match with someone else. This affects Random players who just wants to learn all 9 matchups and not be cheesy as well, because their opponent will do stupid things either because of lack of scouting, or because he doesn't care about the game you're playing, This problem would be eliminated if the race of the random player showed in the beginning.
The problem is not considering vs. random something you have to get good at. Why not?
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On August 20 2012 22:13 labbe wrote:
We're finally here. The day has come when people are arguing that Random is imbalanced. Wow...
You've obviously not read a single post in this thread. Get out.
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On August 20 2012 22:19 boxman22 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 22:16 Excludos wrote:On August 20 2012 22:11 FairForever wrote:On August 20 2012 22:04 Avicularia wrote:On August 20 2012 22:02 Adrianzo wrote:
If those who go Random does it to cheese only, then they would benefit from it if their race showed instead of "Random" at the loading screen. This is because everyone will scout a random player at 9, no matter what (at least for Zerg and Protoss). This. I have no idea where comes the myth of random cheesers from. Actually as a random player I'm getting cheesed a lot, but it's fine for me. Pretty much, I get cheesed a LOT when I used to play random/when I smurf random, because they assume I won't scout or they don't want to play against random or whatever. I still standard scout in all matchups when I play random (don't try to "not scout" to hide my race). After reading this thread I smurfed as random yesterday, played a guy who asked me for my race, told it to him (I was Z, he was T), he proceeded to try and proxy 2rax me but because I standard 12scouted in the ZvT matchup I caught it and it was an easy win. A lot of people who play on the ladder plays to get good at their respective 3 matchups. If they meet a random, you already know its going to be a fucked game because you're going to have to play unnaturally until you find out what race your opponent is. A lot of the time the game will end up so unnatural that you don't feel like you're learning anything by it, and thus its much more effective to just 6pool or something of the sorts of get the match over with, so you can start a real match with someone else. This affects Random players who just wants to learn all 9 matchups and not be cheesy as well, because their opponent will do stupid things either because of lack of scouting, or because he doesn't care about the game you're playing, This problem would be eliminated if the race of the random player showed in the beginning. The problem is not considering vs. random something you have to get good at. Why not?
Why do you have to get good vs randoms when none plays them? There are literally no good random players in any tournaments. If its limited to the ladder, and you're using ladder to practice, then obviously you're not going to take a vs random match seriously because it wont affect you later on anyways.
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On August 20 2012 18:03 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 06:51 rd wrote:On August 20 2012 05:55 cydial wrote:On August 20 2012 04:36 Sepheren wrote:
Random is definitely an unfair advantage. You begin the game with information dissymmetry, the random player has more information than his opponent. That right there is justification for why it should not exist the way it does.
Random should be an option which relieves the player of having to choose his/her race, yet does not hide that information from the matched opponent.
I have no opinions on WHO plays random, or their personal playstyles. My issue is with the game design, which is flawed. Well put. This reason is exactly why random is banned from tournaments. You the random player start with an advantage over your opponent from the start. Actually I wanna rant more at this. Because the notion that random has an advantage at the start is apparently so overwhelming, that no one plays random competitively. Just some figures: Of all the major tournaments (that I care to list), 0 random players have won GSL. 0 random players have won MLG. 0 random players have won ESL. 0 random players have won IPL. 0 random players have won NASL. 0 random players have won Dreamhack. 0 random players have won HSC. Name a tournament I didn't list so I can say 0. Of all the players in grandmasters, NA has three. EU has one. KOR has zero. Of all the players in masters, 4.2% of NA play random. 3.1% of EU play random. 3.7% of KOR play random. Anything below and you're probably just much worse than your opponent. I love the way this thread was summarized: first world problems. You know, most tourneys doesn't allow random... for a very obvious reason. The % of players who play random doesn't matter. If you play random and want it to be hidden because that keep your opponents on his toes, you are just a minority of players who isn't getting better because isn't getting real openings. Have fun with your circular logic tho. I don't care btw, people who honestly just enjoy playing 3 races and getting better with them will just tell the race at the beginning like d.apollo does. ;P
At least GSL allow random players. I think if random had an advantage, we would have seen more random koreans in Code A/Code S. But we don't.
Lookint at the liquidpedia page, it seems only Gumiho qualified for GSL playing random.
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It should be obvious that the benefits of random fail to exceed the disadvantages. How many established, successful pros play random?
There is importance in being consistent with telling or not telling your race with random so that the ladder properly places you where you need to be. Don't sometimes tell; do it always or never. The around 50% winrate is what is important, not the preferences of some crybabies.
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On August 20 2012 22:22 Excludos wrote:
Why do you have to get good vs randoms when none plays them? There are literally no good random players in any tournaments. If its limited to the ladder, and you're using ladder to practice, then obviously you're not going to take a vs random match seriously because it wont affect you later on anyways.
Again the VAST majority of the people complaining seem to be plat and under. At those levels just playing and learning to deal with different situations, learning to think on your feet will help you a lot anyway.
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On August 20 2012 22:23 31415926535 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 18:03 Godwrath wrote:On August 20 2012 06:51 rd wrote:On August 20 2012 05:55 cydial wrote:On August 20 2012 04:36 Sepheren wrote:
Random is definitely an unfair advantage. You begin the game with information dissymmetry, the random player has more information than his opponent. That right there is justification for why it should not exist the way it does.
Random should be an option which relieves the player of having to choose his/her race, yet does not hide that information from the matched opponent.
I have no opinions on WHO plays random, or their personal playstyles. My issue is with the game design, which is flawed. Well put. This reason is exactly why random is banned from tournaments. You the random player start with an advantage over your opponent from the start. Actually I wanna rant more at this. Because the notion that random has an advantage at the start is apparently so overwhelming, that no one plays random competitively. Just some figures: Of all the major tournaments (that I care to list), 0 random players have won GSL. 0 random players have won MLG. 0 random players have won ESL. 0 random players have won IPL. 0 random players have won NASL. 0 random players have won Dreamhack. 0 random players have won HSC. Name a tournament I didn't list so I can say 0. Of all the players in grandmasters, NA has three. EU has one. KOR has zero. Of all the players in masters, 4.2% of NA play random. 3.1% of EU play random. 3.7% of KOR play random. Anything below and you're probably just much worse than your opponent. I love the way this thread was summarized: first world problems. You know, most tourneys doesn't allow random... for a very obvious reason. The % of players who play random doesn't matter. If you play random and want it to be hidden because that keep your opponents on his toes, you are just a minority of players who isn't getting better because isn't getting real openings. Have fun with your circular logic tho. I don't care btw, people who honestly just enjoy playing 3 races and getting better with them will just tell the race at the beginning like d.apollo does. ;P At least GSL allow random players. I think if random had an advantage, we would have seen more random koreans in Code A/Code S. But we don't. Lookint at the liquidpedia page, it seems only Gumiho qualified for GSL playing random.
I checked GSL, MLG, IPL and NASL. All allow random. 4/4 I checked allow it. I've played playhem and z33k dailies as random before, so those allow it. I have, in fact, never seen a tournament disallow random.
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United Kingdom31935 Posts
I have no problem with random though it would be nice if the loading screen showed race 
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There is a huge problem from the random standpoint aswell.
I, for example, started to play random when beta came - why? - because I absolutely loved the game and didn't want to miss on anything that it has to offer. While months and now years passed, i fell in love with the Mutalisk portrait and while on the road to obtaining it I played so much random that now I don't know which race to choose.
I love all races and I feel I would get bored excluding one. Also i'd miss that race and it's dynamics a lot. Now, why don't I alternate between races? It's not that easy to answer but I get so much pleasure from the sheer randomization - or more like it from the feeling when the game chooses instead of me. I can play all of them so why wouldn't I use that option the game offers.
Now, from my standpoint as Random, I get absolutely terrible games pretty often. As a zerg I can't play a straight up 3 hatch game vs Protoss because noone believes me when i tell my race at the start. And even if they do / or see my race fast alot of people prepare the worst cheese they have in their store. Just because I chose random and also tell them my race.
So yeah.. playing random is not a nice experience alot of the time - and it's the non-random players that make it that way. They absolutely want to ruin my day in every way possible.
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On August 20 2012 22:16 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 22:11 FairForever wrote:On August 20 2012 22:04 Avicularia wrote:On August 20 2012 22:02 Adrianzo wrote:
If those who go Random does it to cheese only, then they would benefit from it if their race showed instead of "Random" at the loading screen. This is because everyone will scout a random player at 9, no matter what (at least for Zerg and Protoss). This. I have no idea where comes the myth of random cheesers from. Actually as a random player I'm getting cheesed a lot, but it's fine for me. Pretty much, I get cheesed a LOT when I used to play random/when I smurf random, because they assume I won't scout or they don't want to play against random or whatever. I still standard scout in all matchups when I play random (don't try to "not scout" to hide my race). After reading this thread I smurfed as random yesterday, played a guy who asked me for my race, told it to him (I was Z, he was T), he proceeded to try and proxy 2rax me but because I standard 12scouted in the ZvT matchup I caught it and it was an easy win. A lot of people who play on the ladder plays to get good at their respective 3 matchups. If they meet a random, you already know its going to be a fucked game because you're going to have to play unnaturally until you find out what race your opponent is. A lot of the time the game will end up so unnatural that you don't feel like you're learning anything by it, and thus its much more effective to just 6pool or something of the sorts of get the match over with, so you can start a real match with someone else. This affects Random players who just wants to learn all 9 matchups and not be cheesy as well, because their opponent will do stupid things either because of lack of scouting, or because he doesn't care about the game you're playing, This problem would be eliminated if the race of the random player showed in the beginning.
How would you not improve by playing against random? Yeah sure, you might not get to use a specific build aimed at a specific matchup, but getting out of your comfort zone and having to use pure mechanics really isn't that bad practice; even in "ordinary" games weird shit tend to happen, and getting used to responding on the fly is one of the things you get from playing against, and as, random.
If one cannot play a decent game without using a super-specific build against each matchup, they should really take a look at their fundamentals before whining about that "unfair advantage" random players get, because it sure ain't a big one.
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I never understand why people QQ about random when it is the least played 'race' at GM level.
Random players stop cheesing after diamond anyway, and those who do keep cheesing have no idea how to macro. Deal with it, seriously this has been around since BW.
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I find my most fun match ups on ladder end up being random vs random. And cool thing about it random players never care about your race! so we never ask Pure freestyle games are most fun for me!
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My problem with random is that no matter what you do against a random, the early game will never be representative of a normal PvZ, or PvT, or whatever, so you're really just getting practice against random, which doesn't help much since everyone in a real tourny will choose their race. Nothing against random players, but its just a waste of time to play against them if you're trying to practice and improve. I proxy or 4gate against random depending on map.
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On August 20 2012 22:43 _indigo_ wrote:
There is a huge problem from the random standpoint aswell.
I, for example, started to play random when beta came - why? - because I absolutely loved the game and didn't want to miss on anything that it has to offer. While months and now years passed, i fell in love with the Mutalisk portrait and while on the road to obtaining it I played so much random that now I don't know which race to choose.
I love all races and I feel I would get bored excluding one. Also i'd miss that race and it's dynamics a lot. Now, why don't I alternate between races? It's not that easy to answer but I get so much pleasure from the sheer randomization - or more like it from the feeling when the game chooses instead of me. I can play all of them so why wouldn't I use that option the game offers.
Now, from my standpoint as Random, I get absolutely terrible games pretty often. As a zerg I can't play a straight up 3 hatch game vs Protoss because noone believes me when i tell my race at the start. And even if they do / or see my race fast alot of people prepare the worst cheese they have in their store. Just because I chose random and also tell them my race.
So yeah.. playing random is not a nice experience alot of the time - and it's the non-random players that make it that way. They absolutely want to ruin my day in every way possible.
So throw a dice. If it's 1 or 2, pick terran. If it's 3 or 4, pick protoss. if it's 5 or 6, pick zerg. Redo for every game.
That way, you get to play all the races randomly, yet no one will know you're playing random, so no games ruined. Fun and awesome for everyone.
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On August 20 2012 23:26 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 22:43 _indigo_ wrote:
There is a huge problem from the random standpoint aswell.
I, for example, started to play random when beta came - why? - because I absolutely loved the game and didn't want to miss on anything that it has to offer. While months and now years passed, i fell in love with the Mutalisk portrait and while on the road to obtaining it I played so much random that now I don't know which race to choose.
I love all races and I feel I would get bored excluding one. Also i'd miss that race and it's dynamics a lot. Now, why don't I alternate between races? It's not that easy to answer but I get so much pleasure from the sheer randomization - or more like it from the feeling when the game chooses instead of me. I can play all of them so why wouldn't I use that option the game offers.
Now, from my standpoint as Random, I get absolutely terrible games pretty often. As a zerg I can't play a straight up 3 hatch game vs Protoss because noone believes me when i tell my race at the start. And even if they do / or see my race fast alot of people prepare the worst cheese they have in their store. Just because I chose random and also tell them my race.
So yeah.. playing random is not a nice experience alot of the time - and it's the non-random players that make it that way. They absolutely want to ruin my day in every way possible. So throw a dice. If it's 1 or 2, pick terran. If it's 3 or 4, pick protoss. if it's 5 or 6, pick zerg. Redo for every game. That way, you get to play all the races randomly, yet no one will know you're playing random, so no games ruined. Fun and awesome for everyone.
Random portraits?
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On August 20 2012 18:03 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 06:51 rd wrote:On August 20 2012 05:55 cydial wrote:On August 20 2012 04:36 Sepheren wrote:
Random is definitely an unfair advantage. You begin the game with information dissymmetry, the random player has more information than his opponent. That right there is justification for why it should not exist the way it does.
Random should be an option which relieves the player of having to choose his/her race, yet does not hide that information from the matched opponent.
I have no opinions on WHO plays random, or their personal playstyles. My issue is with the game design, which is flawed. Well put. This reason is exactly why random is banned from tournaments. You the random player start with an advantage over your opponent from the start. Actually I wanna rant more at this. Because the notion that random has an advantage at the start is apparently so overwhelming, that no one plays random competitively. Just some figures: Of all the major tournaments (that I care to list), 0 random players have won GSL. 0 random players have won MLG. 0 random players have won ESL. 0 random players have won IPL. 0 random players have won NASL. 0 random players have won Dreamhack. 0 random players have won HSC. Name a tournament I didn't list so I can say 0. Of all the players in grandmasters, NA has three. EU has one. KOR has zero. Of all the players in masters, 4.2% of NA play random. 3.1% of EU play random. 3.7% of KOR play random. Anything below and you're probably just much worse than your opponent. I love the way this thread was summarized: first world problems. You know, most tourneys doesn't allow random... for a very obvious reason. The % of players who play random doesn't matter. If you play random and want it to be hidden because that keep your opponents on his toes, you are just a minority of players who isn't getting better because isn't getting real openings. Have fun with your circular logic tho. I don't care btw, people who honestly just enjoy playing 3 races and getting better with them will just tell the race at the beginning like d.apollo does. ;P
I'll butt into this too: Which of the tourneys that I listed disallow choosing random as a race? And for which obvious reason would it be disallowed -- so that no one will pick it anyways because it'd be virtually impossible to win? You go even further on a tangent about why none of what I said matters at all yet you haven't even attempted to make an argument other than an obvious reason I'm left to imply on my own.
But don't worry, my logic is circular. (lol)
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I think it would be fine if there were randoms on ladder its just I want their race to be revealed before the game. Its frustrating having to go pool first every time no matter what race they are playing. Like I like to go hatch first vs terran and occasionally against Zerg I just get pissed off that I am put at a huge disadvantage because they are playing random.
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I think random is are fine, you not knowing their race is an advantage they get for knowing how to play all the races.
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On August 21 2012 00:03 FlukyS wrote:
I think it would be fine if there were randoms on ladder its just I want their race to be revealed before the game. Its frustrating having to go pool first every time no matter what race they are playing. Like I like to go hatch first vs terran and occasionally against Zerg I just get pissed off that I am put at a huge disadvantage because they are playing random.
9scout - problem solved.
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EPT
