EPTBottom line is that if Random were to be implemented right so that it confers no advantage to any player, once the loading screen is finished the race that the other player randomed as should be displayed on the race button when you click it. In my opinion, disagreeing with this last point is tantamount to acknowledging that there is an advantage for the R player otherwise you wouldn't care if the race you randomed was displayed to your opponent. People who talk about how to play correctly against Random race as Protoss are talking truthfully, but skirting the whole point in that choosing Random as a race in an RTS confers an unfair advantage to the R player.
Random and its place on the ladder - Page 37
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
Bottom line is that if Random were to be implemented right so that it confers no advantage to any player, once the loading screen is finished the race that the other player randomed as should be displayed on the race button when you click it. In my opinion, disagreeing with this last point is tantamount to acknowledging that there is an advantage for the R player otherwise you wouldn't care if the race you randomed was displayed to your opponent. People who talk about how to play correctly against Random race as Protoss are talking truthfully, but skirting the whole point in that choosing Random as a race in an RTS confers an unfair advantage to the R player. | ||
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BBQ`BBQKingPrime
25 Posts
On August 21 2012 00:14 Kasu wrote: People need to stop with the whole "random gets an unfair advantage" thing. If you meet a random player on ladder, they have the same MMR as you and the match is around 50-50 as to which way it will go. This is calculated from their previous results WHICH INCLUDE THE ADVANTAGE OF SPAWNING RANDOM. THUS RANDOM IS ALREADY ACCOUNTED FOR WITHIN THEIR MMR SCORE. You are balanced AFTER you include that fact, so you and your random opponent are still level, i.e. you are not at a disadvantage. Edit: To clarify further for the hard-of-reading: Any random opponent you meet will be slightly worse than you, which is compensated for by their random information advantage. Take this away by scouting and you are effectively trading a few minerals to force a straight-up game against someone worse than you. Of course, if you're playing to improve that's no help. But let's hear no more of the "boo-hoo, its not fair, I'm at a disadvantage against random" rubbish. How is this better than having the loading screen show what race(s) was randommed? Of course, what you say is absolutely correct, but it's just poor design, giving the games a wierd dissymmetry, with the random player having an information advantage and the other player being better at the game. | ||
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Holy_AT
Austria978 Posts
It would be better if all race choices were hidden and that players have to scout what there opponent really is, this would lead to better games because people dont go into their auto build ordermode from loading screen second one. | ||
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ArchAngelSC
England706 Posts
On August 21 2012 04:01 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote: How is this better than having the loading screen show what race(s) was randommed? Of course, what you say is absolutely correct, but it's just poor design, giving the games a wierd dissymmetry, with the random player having an information advantage and the other player being better at the game. This is incorrect. For example in masters league in an XvR match-up, R has an information advantage and is a master level player. X has an information DISadvantage and is also a master level player. Maybe it took R longer to get to master league, but now he's there he's still playing at the same level. And probably has even more of an advantage of knowing your race better than you know his. On August 21 2012 04:12 Holy_AT wrote: Why even show any race on the ladder even if a race was picked ? It would be better if all race choices were hidden and that players have to scout what there opponent really is, this would lead to better games because people dont go into their auto build ordermode from loading screen second one. Please tell me you're joking, right? lol | ||
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FairForever
Canada2392 Posts
On August 21 2012 04:13 ArchAngelSC wrote: This is incorrect. For example in masters league in an XvR match-up, R has an information advantage and is a master level player. X has an information DISadvantage and is also a master level player. Maybe it took R longer to get to master league, but now he's there he's still playing at the same level. And probably has even more of an advantage of knowing your race better than you know his. Please tell me you're joking, right? lol Lack of understanding fail. If you're saying that the Random player theoretically has a better than 50% win rate over you (equally matched), then he would already have a higher MMR. | ||
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PowerDes
United States520 Posts
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Holy_AT
Austria978 Posts
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Sandermatt
Switzerland1365 Posts
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Account252508
3454 Posts
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Leafty
France84 Posts
On August 21 2012 04:13 ArchAngelSC wrote: This is incorrect. For example in masters league in an XvR match-up, R has an information advantage and is a master level player. X has an information DISadvantage and is also a master level player. Maybe it took R longer to get to master league, but now he's there he's still playing at the same level. And probably has even more of an advantage of knowing your race better than you know his. Your argument is flawed. Here's why: you assume R is at the same level as X. This implies that the random factor (playing as a random race) IS part of is rank. The MMR only takes into account wins and losses against your oponents, not your race, macro skills, build orders, or whatever. If you play against an oponent who is said to have the same level as you as a random player, this is already taking the information advantage into account for his ranking. | ||
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chaokel
Australia535 Posts
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ArchAngelSC
England706 Posts
On August 21 2012 04:23 Leafty wrote: Your argument is flawed. Here's why: you assume R is at the same level as X. This implies that the random factor (playing as a random race) IS part of is rank. The MMR only takes into account wins and losses against your oponents, not your race, macro skills, build orders, or whatever. If you play against an oponent who is said to have the same level as you as a random player, this is already taking the information advantage into account for his ranking. True I hadn't thought about that. I still hate playing against random cause it's a waste of time not knowing what you're playing against so you can't actually practice anything useful. | ||
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reki-
Netherlands327 Posts
That's why you scout. | ||
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diddLY
United States215 Posts
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Kultfrisur
Germany41 Posts
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Khang
United States24 Posts
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rEalGuapo
Germany832 Posts
On August 21 2012 05:01 diddLY wrote: Play random if it's such a big advantage! Feel the joy of 15 game win streaks, and then the torment of 20+ game losing streaks. Depends on what match ups you get. I love it. No one forces you to play Random, BNet forces us to play against Random. | ||
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
its hilarious lol playxp needs to add random in jingjing/QQ/TT poll and let little to no hilarity ensue | ||
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MyTHicaL
France1070 Posts
Learn safe builds, learn to 1 base pvz. God I can't believe that people actually are complaining about this. | ||
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zala2023
United States228 Posts
On August 21 2012 00:35 falaakr wrote: As a toss, i used to cheese every random i encountered, while kindly asking them to die as the fucking cheesers they are, even sometimes continuing after the game finished if they were bad. Now i first ask their race (even adding a gl hf before) and play as i would if they answer, and only cheese+bm when they dont answer (or when they lie, but then the cheese is usually pretty bad, and they get *2 the bm for that). Please tell me how you beat a cheeser (aka random player) that hatch first when you have to go gate first ? (especially on maps like daybreak) Even if you're slightly better than him, you don't have the two ligue difference it takes to balance such a bo loss. I think that's the problem right there assuming random race has an "advantage", u should be alot better than him if u are at the same mmr as him lol u lose simply you are bad(not good enough), that is all | ||
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