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On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ.
Implying NonY faces random in gm.
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On August 21 2012 06:17 Sandermatt wrote:
I like the fact that your race is not revealed, because this means: You have to learn hard to learn all 6 match-ups, but if you do it we reward you by a small advantage. It at least has a payoff to learn everything, even if it cannot compensate for the distribution of the learning.
there's 9 match ups not 6. Mirrors count too.
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On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm.
No. It's implying that NonY uses Gateway Expand builds vs Zerg.
The FFE or die mentality is a crutch.
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On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm.
Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die.
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On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die.
No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream).
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Sc2 being a strategy game does require decisionmaking on your gameplan in every matchup. Most sc2 players being copiers will do gameplans that tehy see from pros. This means people know what they have to do PvP, PvT and PvZ. If they cant be creative though finding openers for PvR is just a result of them not having the skill for that. You can be creativ and strategic, finding things such as FFE and canon rush if no zerg or just gateway expand against zerg which is viable if you follow it up with a quick 6 gate. You think you are behind because the gameplan you copy from others doesnt apply. This doesnt mean you cant make PvR even.
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On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream).
I have a hard time believing the majority of people complaining about random are anywhere even remotely close to GM.
Which is what the nested quote implies in defense of random players. I agree with him.
The idea that most people playing against random players don't need to do the openings that random would make difficult, like FFE specifically.
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gotta say i agree with it beign a bit bm to ask a random what race he is.
Wish there was an otion to play random against a random opponent though
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On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream).
The point is, if Gateway expand builds vs Zerg can work for NonY they can work for any of the Protoss complaining about Randoms in this thread. I don't see any players arguing against Randoms in here that are on a higher tier than NonY do you?
It's not an argument at this point about what's fair or what's not fair, it's simply a matter of Protoss players in this thread not wanting to open in a way they aren't used to. So rather than learn a new build that might help them improve anyway they want to completely change the way ladder works for all Random players just so they can Forge Fast Expand freely.
It's stupid.
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On August 21 2012 07:44 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). The point is, if Gateway expand builds vs Zerg can work for NonY they can work for any of the Protoss complaining about Randoms in this thread. I don't see any players arguing against Randoms in here that are on a higher tier than NonY do you? It's not an argument at this point about what's fair or what's not fair, it's simply a matter of Protoss players in this thread not wanting to open in a way they aren't used to. So rather than learn a new build that might help them improve anyway they want to completely change the way ladder works for all Random players just so they can Forge Fast Expand freely. It's stupid.
The simple issue is that people do not enjoy playing against random at all.
Say everytime you search for a game you get a little electro shock.
That would get a lot of complaints and people would want that to be changed.
Exact Same Issue.
People dislike a completely useless feature (Random not showing the race)
So they hope by giving voice to their complaints in whatever form, something might change.
Now how is that so freaking hard to understand!?
The Issue is not if it is truly imbalanced or balanced or what are the possible ways.
There is just no necessity for me not to know what race I am up against in a game of Starcraft, so I don't want that.
Also I have yet to read a single reason why it provides huge advantages in terms of enjoyment or game depth for any of the players in a Random v X match not to see the Race one is up against.
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this reminds me, i loved switching race in bw the last 3 seconds of countdown and throw my opponent off XD
(the race change does not update on opponent's screen)
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On August 21 2012 07:44 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). The point is, if Gateway expand builds vs Zerg can work for NonY they can work for any of the Protoss complaining about Randoms in this thread. I don't see any players arguing against Randoms in here that are on a higher tier than NonY do you? It's not an argument at this point about what's fair or what's not fair, it's simply a matter of Protoss players in this thread not wanting to open in a way they aren't used to. So rather than learn a new build that might help them improve anyway they want to completely change the way ladder works for all Random players just so they can Forge Fast Expand freely. It's stupid.
I think a better point would be how FFE works better for a great number of other, more successful Protoss players (no slight to Tyler really, the comment just serves a point) and that it's not about having to open in ways we're not used to or learning other builds, but more about wanting to open with what is widely considered the best opener PvZ and not being able to because of some silly option that has nothing to do with the game really.
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On August 21 2012 08:00 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 07:44 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). The point is, if Gateway expand builds vs Zerg can work for NonY they can work for any of the Protoss complaining about Randoms in this thread. I don't see any players arguing against Randoms in here that are on a higher tier than NonY do you? It's not an argument at this point about what's fair or what's not fair, it's simply a matter of Protoss players in this thread not wanting to open in a way they aren't used to. So rather than learn a new build that might help them improve anyway they want to completely change the way ladder works for all Random players just so they can Forge Fast Expand freely. It's stupid. I think a better point would be how FFE works better for a great number of other, more successful Protoss players (no slight to Tyler really, the comment just serves a point) and that it's not about having to open in ways we're not used to or learning other builds, but more about wanting to open with what is widely considered the best opener PvZ and not being able to because of some silly option that has nothing to do with the game really.
Go pylon in base first and then FFE, then. If builds usable by GM players aren't good enough, then maybe a build usable by top progamers is.
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On August 21 2012 07:01 tehemperorer wrote:
@jinorazi: Yes, if anything I believe the gripe is with game design that on one hand wants to be well-balanced, but on the other hand provides a way for imbalance to exist.
@rd: I offered my solution earlier. Allow Random as a race but make the race that was randomed be visible in game when you click the alliance button or whatever that is in the top right of the game. The point is if Blizzard intends for Random to have an advantage, there's nothing that can be done about it; that's how the game works. It's stupid, illogical, and unfitting for an RTS, but that's how it is and a single complaint post isn't going to change anything. I've always thought that it existed so that you could add some spice for casuals who like for whatever reason having a random result determine their race at game-time and that it wasn't intended to be anything but that. Like I said before as well, when you have a good matchmaking system and PvZ/PvP/PvT as they currently are the matter gets really complicated, moreso than it ever was for BW. I would just prefer Blizzard to, if they don't know already, take a look at how PvR is different from the other XvR matchups and realize how P gets the shaft and then decide whether they want that to happen or not, that's all.
When you say Random shafts protoss, do you mean the Protoss loses 95% of the time and it's unwinnable, or that Protoss MAY lose 5-10% more often for reasons that might not even be due to random? Cause it's been laid out pretty plainly you can play as P vs R just fine.
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At my place on the ladder (gold 1's diamond team's) random really doesnt bug me. I have very mineral oriented builds like timed out expos and things. so my build doesn't really ever changed based on race or what i see(most of the time). I'm just a different kind of player, i guess i play a very straight up style. just get more units than my opponent/
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On August 21 2012 07:50 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 07:44 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). The point is, if Gateway expand builds vs Zerg can work for NonY they can work for any of the Protoss complaining about Randoms in this thread. I don't see any players arguing against Randoms in here that are on a higher tier than NonY do you? It's not an argument at this point about what's fair or what's not fair, it's simply a matter of Protoss players in this thread not wanting to open in a way they aren't used to. So rather than learn a new build that might help them improve anyway they want to completely change the way ladder works for all Random players just so they can Forge Fast Expand freely. It's stupid. There is just no necessity for me not to know what race I am up against in a game of Starcraft, so I don't want that.
Actually, there is no necessity for you TO know the race you are up against. I agree with what someone said a while back. There should be no races displayed at all. Make the game interesting!
Also, what if people enjoy playing random just so they can have the little advantage at the start, and enjoy cheesing, and are good enough to win in masters with it. Why take that away because you can't learn more than one build pvz? Please.
Edit: watching Ret's stream right now where he is matched up against adelescott who *gasp*, did not FE!
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]Actually, there is no necessity for you TO know the race you are up against. I agree with what someone said a while back. There should be no races displayed at all. Make the game interesting!
Yeah why not simply start the game with random resources in both players bases, one gets 4 Gases the other none. Make the game interesting!
I could play PvZ for the rest of my life and it would stay interesting, if you really are bored with SC2 already why even bother posting here!?
Also, what if people enjoy playing random just so they can have the little advantage at the start, and enjoy cheesing, and are good enough to win in masters with it. Why take that away because you can't learn more than one build pvz? Please.
Don't be so snappy bitch.
I don't have to "learn more than one build pvz" I have to either learn a completely different build for like 3% of my games or leave them. Both seems no fun to me and the people I talked to.
Why not make stop punishing maphackers? If they enjoy it, let them.
One single reasonable argument is all I ask for. And enjoyment clearly doesn't count.
I say I do not enjoy it one bit. You do not care about that, so obviously it can not count for you either.
So...... go!
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On August 21 2012 08:11 CubEdIn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 07:50 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 21 2012 07:44 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). The point is, if Gateway expand builds vs Zerg can work for NonY they can work for any of the Protoss complaining about Randoms in this thread. I don't see any players arguing against Randoms in here that are on a higher tier than NonY do you? It's not an argument at this point about what's fair or what's not fair, it's simply a matter of Protoss players in this thread not wanting to open in a way they aren't used to. So rather than learn a new build that might help them improve anyway they want to completely change the way ladder works for all Random players just so they can Forge Fast Expand freely. It's stupid. There is just no necessity for me not to know what race I am up against in a game of Starcraft, so I don't want that. Actually, there is no necessity for you TO know the race you are up against. I agree with what someone said a while back. There should be no races displayed at all. Make the game interesting! Also, what if people enjoy playing random just so they can have the little advantage at the start, and enjoy cheesing, and are good enough to win in masters with it. Why take that away because you can't learn more than one build pvz? Please. Edit: watching Ret's stream right now where he is matched up against adelescott who *gasp*, did not FE!
Fuck you and your attitude, asshole!
User was temp banned for this post.
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8751 Posts
On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream).
the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o
there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better
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On August 21 2012 08:00 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 07:44 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). The point is, if Gateway expand builds vs Zerg can work for NonY they can work for any of the Protoss complaining about Randoms in this thread. I don't see any players arguing against Randoms in here that are on a higher tier than NonY do you? It's not an argument at this point about what's fair or what's not fair, it's simply a matter of Protoss players in this thread not wanting to open in a way they aren't used to. So rather than learn a new build that might help them improve anyway they want to completely change the way ladder works for all Random players just so they can Forge Fast Expand freely. It's stupid. I think a better point would be how FFE works better for a great number of other, more successful Protoss players (no slight to Tyler really, the comment just serves a point) and that it's not about having to open in ways we're not used to or learning other builds, but more about wanting to open with what is widely considered the best opener PvZ and not being able to because of some silly option that has nothing to do with the game really.
Alright I'll bite.
Give me a progamer more successful than Naniwa. Naniwa who specifically opted to go for gateway expands as part of his plan to defeat DRG, Naniwa who took games off of DRG one of the most successful top tier Zergs in the world with gateway expands.
Give me a progamer more successful than Naniwa who thinks that you HAVE to FFE against Zergs and I might concede you have a point.
The fact is, no one at the top level is complaining about Random because it isn't a problem for them. It's just a problem for people down in the lower leagues who would rather complain than adapt their play in the 5-10% of games where they go against Random players.
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EPT
