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On August 21 2012 08:20 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +]Actually, there is no necessity for you TO know the race you are up against. I agree with what someone said a while back. There should be no races displayed at all. Make the game interesting!
Yeah why not simply start the game with random resources in both players bases, one gets 4 Gases the other none. Make the game interesting! I could play PvZ for the rest of my life and it would stay interesting, if you really are bored with SC2 already why even bother posting here!? Show nested quote +Also, what if people enjoy playing random just so they can have the little advantage at the start, and enjoy cheesing, and are good enough to win in masters with it. Why take that away because you can't learn more than one build pvz? Please. Don't be so snappy bitch. I don't have to "learn more than one build pvz" I have to either learn a completely different build for like 3% of my games or leave them. Both seems no fun to me and the people I talked to. Why not make stop punishing maphackers? If they enjoy it, let them. One single reasonable argument is all I ask for. And enjoyment clearly doesn't count. I say I do not enjoy it one bit. You do not care about that, so obviously it can not count for you either. So...... go! They're fixing it in HotS with the Mothership Core and more viable Stargate tech, so in theory you could 1g FE into gateway units plus Phoenix for harassment and map control and Tempests in the late-game. Though, I'm not 100% sure if the Mothership Core would be able to hold a 12 minute max, I'm inclined to since at the moment in the HotS custom it does something like 75 damage with a very long range. (10+)
Until then, it is an issue.
Edit: Maybe not?
On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better
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On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better
Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here.
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On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here.
You missed a line here: there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better
Maybe some evidence to the contrary? Saying "You're wrong and I'm right" will get you nowhere fast.
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On August 21 2012 08:33 Fencar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. You missed a line here: Show nested quote +there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Maybe some evidence to the contrary? Saying "You're wrong and I'm right" will get you nowhere fast.
I was just about to quote that same line.
It almost appeared like he didn't even read what he wrote.
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On August 21 2012 08:33 Fencar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. You missed a line here: Show nested quote +there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Maybe some evidence to the contrary? Saying "You're wrong and I'm right" will get you nowhere fast.
So he's saying that 100% of the time he uses this build, teh build goes according to plan and he can get a fast nexus up, with no risk whatsoever, and the zerg can do absolutely nothing to deny that nexus?
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![[image loading]](http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg169/Myrkskogg/random.jpg)
User was warned for this post
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On August 21 2012 08:35 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 08:33 Fencar wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. You missed a line here: there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Maybe some evidence to the contrary? Saying "You're wrong and I'm right" will get you nowhere fast. So he's saying that 100% of the time he uses this build, teh build goes according to plan and he can get a fast nexus up, with no risk whatsoever?
No, but you can say the same thing about any build that's ever existed in this game.
There's no such thing as a 100% fool proof opening in Starcraft and there never will be. All he's claiming is that there isn't any standard Zerg build that specifically counters his.
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This isn't adding to the conversation, it's just going to incite more trolls and flamers. Take it off please.
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On August 21 2012 08:37 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 08:35 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:33 Fencar wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. You missed a line here: there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Maybe some evidence to the contrary? Saying "You're wrong and I'm right" will get you nowhere fast. So he's saying that 100% of the time he uses this build, teh build goes according to plan and he can get a fast nexus up, with no risk whatsoever? No, but you can't say the same thing about any build that's ever existed in this game. There's no such thing as a 100% fool proof opening in Starcraft and there never will be. All he's claiming is that there isn't any standard Zerg build that specifically counters his.
And that's the point, the random opponent knows you are not going for an ffe build. Therefore, he can do a build that will put him ahead, as he knows the protoss will not be doing ffe. The random doesn't have to play standard because the protoss won't be. That's why he can assume there is a gateway expand, and act on it. I don't see how ya'll fail to understand this.
Nony's opponents will not be assuming he isn't doing a ffe, because they're zerg, whereas random opponents of mine will.
And once again as people seem to be getting the wrong idea, nobody hates random players, just the mechanic.
Edit: Have to head off for the night now, it's late in the uk. Will continue the discussion in the thread if it's still around tomorrow.
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On August 21 2012 08:40 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 08:37 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:35 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:33 Fencar wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. You missed a line here: there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Maybe some evidence to the contrary? Saying "You're wrong and I'm right" will get you nowhere fast. So he's saying that 100% of the time he uses this build, teh build goes according to plan and he can get a fast nexus up, with no risk whatsoever? No, but you can't say the same thing about any build that's ever existed in this game. There's no such thing as a 100% fool proof opening in Starcraft and there never will be. All he's claiming is that there isn't any standard Zerg build that specifically counters his. And that's the point, the random opponent knows you are not going for an ffe build. Therefore, he can do a build that will put him ahead, as he knows the protoss will not be doing ffe. The random doesn't have to play standard because the protoss won't be. That's why he can assume there is a gateway expand, and act on it. I don't see how ya'll fail to understand this. Nony's opponents will not be assuming he isn't doing a ffe, because they're zerg, whereas random opponents of mine will. .
How is what I quoted any different from normal PvZ where the Zerg assumes the Protoss is going for a FFE or TvZ where Terran assumes the Zerg is 15 hatching.
It doesn't matter what you're assuming you still have to scout and react if something is going differently. I don't ever assume my Protoss opponent is gateway expanding when I random against Protoss. I've had situations where they're blindly Nexus firsting (this one is actually pretty common), going for 1 base all ins, Forge Fast Expanding even though I randomed Terran, there's a ton of things I've encountered all of which force me into scouting just because I'm almost as confused how to open as they are.
The way you're making it sound is that Random players have a hidden map hack that completely eliminates their need to scout for all ins, and cheeses because they automatically know what their opponent is going to do.
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On August 21 2012 08:40 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 08:37 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:35 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:33 Fencar wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. You missed a line here: there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Maybe some evidence to the contrary? Saying "You're wrong and I'm right" will get you nowhere fast. So he's saying that 100% of the time he uses this build, teh build goes according to plan and he can get a fast nexus up, with no risk whatsoever? No, but you can't say the same thing about any build that's ever existed in this game. There's no such thing as a 100% fool proof opening in Starcraft and there never will be. All he's claiming is that there isn't any standard Zerg build that specifically counters his. And that's the point, the random opponent knows you are not going for an ffe build. Therefore, he can do a build that will put him ahead, as he knows the protoss will not be doing ffe. The random doesn't have to play standard because the protoss won't be. That's why he can assume there is a gateway expand, and act on it. I don't see how ya'll fail to understand this. Nony's opponents will not be assuming he isn't doing a ffe, because they're zerg, whereas random opponents of mine will. And once again as people seem to be getting the wrong idea, nobody hates random players, just the mechanic. Edit: Have to head off for the night now, it's late in the uk. Will continue the discussion in the thread if it's still around tomorrow.
As a random player, when zerg I've played against:
1) Gateway in main into expand builds
2) Blind FFE builds/fast scout FFE
3) Pylon in base followed by FFE
4) Pylon in base followed by nexus
5) Proxy gates
6) Gateway in main into 4 gate
7) Gateway in main into some kind of all in
Etc, etc. It's not like random players have some magical ability to know what their opponent is doing.
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On August 21 2012 07:56 jinorazi wrote:
this reminds me, i loved switching race in bw the last 3 seconds of countdown and throw my opponent off XD
(the race change does not update on opponent's screen)
That was always so much fun  It even happened in tourney games sometimes albeit rarely.
Also it's quite awesome to see Nony show up. If he says there isn't a direct counter to his build I'm far more inclined to believe him than the nobodys who are complaining against randoms. His build really is super solid, and then OP still attempts to poke holes in his reply and fails. Lol, this thread is hilarious xD.
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On August 21 2012 08:33 Fencar wrote:You missed a line here: Show nested quote +there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Maybe some evidence to the contrary? Saying "You're wrong and I'm right" will get you nowhere fast.
Well, if you know what you're opponent ISN'T doing at the start of the game (since in PvR it's safe to assume that he won't be FFE'ing) and the only other reliable opening is some sort of gateway expo then you can probably find something that counters that gateway expo or he could possibly do some sort of 1base allin which with proper scouting probably wont be too hard to hold.
If say, 1gate expo or 2gate sentry expo always is "the zerg can never get an advantage here no matter what build he does if I am playing just as well", then it makes no sense that players like Puzzle, Parting, Naniwa, Seed etc don't actually always go for said opening. Since SC2 is such a fluid game, I'd bet on that whatever you do, if the opponent knows what you're doing from the start (since you're not FFE'ing) you can eliminate a lot of the possible builds from the list before even sending your first drones to mine-
Well, actually on the topic, it doesn't actually feel like most of the players playing random do so for the said "advantage" of playing random but for the enjoyment of playing all 3 races. Maybe then it would just be better to show the players race in the beginning/in the loading screen as (Random - Zerg) or something.
And by the way, people saying that you should not know your opponents race at all before the game just haven't got a lot of experience playing. I wouldn't play the game if every game I had to go for a 3gate robo expo because I had no idea what risks I could afford since I didn't know what race I was up against. Say, you go nexus first into partings 3nexus build vs a terran. You'll die vs any aggression before the 8-9 minute mark, since that's when you get your warpgates into production mode. But if you did not know that it was a terran (say that races were hidden) that you were up against, would you want to go for a nexus first, knowing that it could be a pvp and you'd just die vs the first zealot/stalker?
I'd say that you wouldn't, and knowing what race the opponent is actually gives me the chance in the loading screen to take some time to figure out what I want to do in said game. For example, I'd definately go triple nexus vs a terran on Ohana, while the same map vs zerg I'd go for some sort of robo play.
TL;DR: There is no "build order solution" that P can do to completely crush PvR. P would be broken in that case. Random players race should show in the loading screen, since people play random for the enjoyment and not for the inheritant advantages of playing random.
PS. If someone actually replies to the arguments for shown races with "lol 9 scout", I am so sorry.
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On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better
To give you an example, I went to your latest streaming session and found a PvZ on Cloud Kingdom.
You went 2g expo with no probe scout, then you made a 7:00ish pushout with 2 sentries and 5 zealots and turned around upon seeing a spine crawler, then you proceeded to check for a third in the normal third location, then you went home and made 2 additional sentries (for a total of 6 now) and a robo at 7:51.
Are you claiming this isnt abusable by a hatch hatch (2nd hatch hidden location) pool into ridiculously hardcore droning and muta-ling play, with just a single spine at his front at 7min?
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On August 21 2012 08:50 Fyrewolf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 07:56 jinorazi wrote:
this reminds me, i loved switching race in bw the last 3 seconds of countdown and throw my opponent off XD
(the race change does not update on opponent's screen) That was always so much fun It even happened in tourney games sometimes albeit rarely. Also it's quite awesome to see Nony show up. His build really is super solid, and then OP still attempts to poke holes in his reply and fails. Lol, this thread is hilarious xD.
Someone did that against Jaedong in WCG. Incidentally, it didn't work out too well.
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On August 21 2012 08:54 droken wrote:
TL;DR: There is no "build order solution" that P can do to completely crush PvR. P would be broken in that case. Random players race should show in the loading screen, since people play random for the enjoyment and not for the inheritant advantages of playing random.
1. Same could be said for any build in any match up. Why do you feel entitled to one? Game would be broken if there was a BO solution to EVERY race as Protoss.
2. Your opinion. And it's wrong. Back in the early days I highly doubt Gumiho and GuineaPig were playing random competitively just for the lulz.
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I wonder what these people would do when facing a random player in tournaments? Moan and bitch or adapt?
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On August 21 2012 08:57 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 08:50 Fyrewolf wrote:On August 21 2012 07:56 jinorazi wrote:
this reminds me, i loved switching race in bw the last 3 seconds of countdown and throw my opponent off XD
(the race change does not update on opponent's screen) That was always so much fun It even happened in tourney games sometimes albeit rarely. Also it's quite awesome to see Nony show up. His build really is super solid, and then OP still attempts to poke holes in his reply and fails. Lol, this thread is hilarious xD. Someone did that against Jaedong in WCG. Incidentally, it didn't work out too well.
to be fair JD was playing against the computer
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On August 21 2012 08:54 droken wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 08:33 Fencar wrote:You missed a line here: there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Maybe some evidence to the contrary? Saying "You're wrong and I'm right" will get you nowhere fast. Well, if you know what you're opponent ISN'T doing at the start of the game (since in PvR it's safe to assume that he won't be FFE'ing) and the only other reliable opening is some sort of gateway expo then you can probably find something that counters that gateway expo or he could possibly do some sort of 1base allin which with proper scouting probably wont be too hard to hold. If say, 1gate expo or 2gate sentry expo always is "the zerg can never get an advantage here no matter what build he does if I am playing just as well", then it makes no sense that players like Puzzle, Parting, Naniwa, Seed etc don't actually always go for said opening. Since SC2 is such a fluid game, I'd bet on that whatever you do, if the opponent knows what you're doing from the start (since you're not FFE'ing) you can eliminate a lot of the possible builds from the list before even sending your first drones to mine- Well, actually on the topic, it doesn't actually feel like most of the players playing random do so for the said "advantage" of playing random but for the enjoyment of playing all 3 races. Maybe then it would just be better to show the players race in the beginning/in the loading screen as (Random - Zerg) or something. And by the way, people saying that you should not know your opponents race at all before the game just haven't got a lot of experience playing. I wouldn't play the game if every game I had to go for a 3gate robo expo because I had no idea what risks I could afford since I didn't know what race I was up against. Say, you go nexus first into partings 3nexus build vs a terran. You'll die vs any aggression before the 8-9 minute mark, since that's when you get your warpgates into production mode. But if you did not know that it was a terran (say that races were hidden) that you were up against, would you want to go for a nexus first, knowing that it could be a pvp and you'd just die vs the first zealot/stalker? I'd say that you wouldn't, and knowing what race the opponent is actually gives me the chance in the loading screen to take some time to figure out what I want to do in said game. For example, I'd definately go triple nexus vs a terran on Ohana, while the same map vs zerg I'd go for some sort of robo play. TL;DR: There is no "build order solution" that P can do to completely crush PvR. P would be broken in that case. Random players race should show in the loading screen, since people play random for the enjoyment and not for the inheritant advantages of playing random. PS. If someone actually replies to the arguments for shown races with "lol 9 scout", I am so sorry.
The way it is now both players play at a disadvantage when Random is involved.
Random players have to be ready to play any one of 3 match ups when their opponent's race is revealed, and their opponent has to do the same thing. The only window where the Random player has the advantage is the time between the two players spawning and the time of the first scout. That is the only window where the Random player has the advantage.
The disadvantages of playing Random go without saying, lack of experience with mechanics, timings, metagame shifts, or even game sense in a match up all from being forced to learn 9 match ups instead of 3.
My point in bringing all of this back up is that from my point of view, rather than Random players having an advantage just for rolling Random, the fact that my opponent doesn't know what race I am in the first 2 minutes evens the playing field.
What you're suggesting would just punish players for playing Random because they would be still playing with all of the disadvantages that comes from learning Random without any of the current gains that off set that disadvantage.
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On August 21 2012 08:56 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better To give you an example, I went to your latest streaming session and found a PvZ on Cloud Kingdom. You went 2g expo with no probe scout, then you made a 7:00ish pushout with 2 sentries and 5 zealots and turned around upon seeing a spine crawler, then you proceeded to check for a third in the normal third location, then you went home and made 2 additional sentries (for a total of 6 now) and a robo at 7:51. Are you claiming this isnt abusable by a hatch hatch (2nd hatch hidden location) pool into ridiculously hardcore droning and muta-ling play, with just a single spine at his front at 7min?
Wait, so you're saying if they hide an expansion and Nony doesn't see it he'll be behind? What a novel idea!
On an unrelated note, I play random because of the advantage I feel like it gives me. I can go hatch first in ZvZ and it forces protoss players to play more safely against me in PvZ. I think this is the inherent advantage you get at the penalty of having to learn all 9 matchups. If it really made such a huge difference, every pro would play random for the advantage they got. Just because you can't FFE as protoss doesn't mean you are behind, it just means that you weren't quite optimal. 3gate expand strictly speaking isn't as good, but it's not bad to be forced to do it against a zerg player.
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EPT
