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On August 21 2012 12:04 Liquid`NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. I've played against people who know to expect gateway openings from me. In fact, they know to expect 2gate expand from me so they know I won't be aggressive while on one base and they know my production directly after expanding is limited. I still haven't seen a direct counter. No, I'm not playing against Stephano and shit, but neither are you. And you are worried that a random player who plays ZvP 1/9 of the time is going to come up with a direct counter. I've gone 3-0 against zergs on ladder doing identical builds up to 7:30 game time. I beat zergs that blindly do things that would be stupid as hell against any other protoss but neatly work against my exact build.
If your opponents were somewhat decent (e.g. stephano) there is no way they would be able to lose if they abuse your opening in an intelligent way.
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Well i didn't read the whole thread obviously but to answer the OP, when i see random i just 1 rax FE or gaz 13.
Even if it's a zerg i just tell myself that he is random, no way i can lose in macro game.
Of course sometimes there are random players who tell their race, but you mainly find them in master league.
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On August 21 2012 12:16 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 12:04 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. I've played against people who know to expect gateway openings from me. In fact, they know to expect 2gate expand from me so they know I won't be aggressive while on one base and they know my production directly after expanding is limited. I still haven't seen a direct counter. No, I'm not playing against Stephano and shit, but neither are you. And you are worried that a random player who plays ZvP 1/9 of the time is going to come up with a direct counter. I've gone 3-0 against zergs on ladder doing identical builds up to 7:30 game time. I beat zergs that blindly do things that would be stupid as hell against any other protoss but neatly work against my exact build. If your opponents were somewhat decent (e.g. stephano) there is no way they would be able to lose if they abuse your opening in an intelligent way.
...Go on...
There are no purely random players on this planet who are as good as Stephano in ZvP. Not to mention, no random player would come remotely close to his MMR. There is pretty much no reason to debate what any top level zerg can or can't do because it's not a frequent (if at all) scenario that Stephano ladders as random.
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On August 21 2012 12:16 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 12:04 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. I've played against people who know to expect gateway openings from me. In fact, they know to expect 2gate expand from me so they know I won't be aggressive while on one base and they know my production directly after expanding is limited. I still haven't seen a direct counter. No, I'm not playing against Stephano and shit, but neither are you. And you are worried that a random player who plays ZvP 1/9 of the time is going to come up with a direct counter. I've gone 3-0 against zergs on ladder doing identical builds up to 7:30 game time. I beat zergs that blindly do things that would be stupid as hell against any other protoss but neatly work against my exact build. If your opponents were somewhat decent (e.g. stephano) there is no way they would be able to lose if they abuse your opening in an intelligent way.
Now now, first you go find me a Stephano level RANDOM zerg player on ladder.
Plus btw, if you read the title and his post, this is about ladder discussion not some tourney issue.
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On August 21 2012 12:16 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 12:04 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. I've played against people who know to expect gateway openings from me. In fact, they know to expect 2gate expand from me so they know I won't be aggressive while on one base and they know my production directly after expanding is limited. I still haven't seen a direct counter. No, I'm not playing against Stephano and shit, but neither are you. And you are worried that a random player who plays ZvP 1/9 of the time is going to come up with a direct counter. I've gone 3-0 against zergs on ladder doing identical builds up to 7:30 game time. I beat zergs that blindly do things that would be stupid as hell against any other protoss but neatly work against my exact build. If your opponents were somewhat decent (e.g. stephano) there is no way they would be able to lose if they abuse your opening in an intelligent way.
And by "somewhat decent" you mean best in the world, which is basically what Stephano is, or close to it.
And when you're that good you can win without abusing your opponent's opening, you can win just by playing your own style.
Imagine that.
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On August 21 2012 12:16 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 12:04 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. I've played against people who know to expect gateway openings from me. In fact, they know to expect 2gate expand from me so they know I won't be aggressive while on one base and they know my production directly after expanding is limited. I still haven't seen a direct counter. No, I'm not playing against Stephano and shit, but neither are you. And you are worried that a random player who plays ZvP 1/9 of the time is going to come up with a direct counter. I've gone 3-0 against zergs on ladder doing identical builds up to 7:30 game time. I beat zergs that blindly do things that would be stupid as hell against any other protoss but neatly work against my exact build. If your opponents were somewhat decent (e.g. stephano) there is no way they would be able to lose if they abuse your opening in an intelligent way.
Holy crap you are not going to get a person of higher skill to debate this with than Nony. So now he's here PLEASE don't confine your argument to "nuh-uh you're wrong" with absolutely no fucking evidence whatsoever. Nobody who posts is going to be better placed to give you a good analysis of the situation than this guy, so take your head out of your ass and CONSIDER what he says, at least to the point of actually trying to use some reason to disagree with him. This level of close-mindedness is utterly stupid.
Edit: Guess I fell for a troll, but leaving this here in case anybody genuinely adopts this attitude, because quite a few posters in this thread have been close.
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On August 21 2012 12:16 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 12:04 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. I've played against people who know to expect gateway openings from me. In fact, they know to expect 2gate expand from me so they know I won't be aggressive while on one base and they know my production directly after expanding is limited. I still haven't seen a direct counter. No, I'm not playing against Stephano and shit, but neither are you. And you are worried that a random player who plays ZvP 1/9 of the time is going to come up with a direct counter. I've gone 3-0 against zergs on ladder doing identical builds up to 7:30 game time. I beat zergs that blindly do things that would be stupid as hell against any other protoss but neatly work against my exact build. If your opponents were somewhat decent (e.g. stephano) there is no way they would be able to lose if they abuse your opening in an intelligent way.
Now now now, this is just ridiculous. You're losing all credibility with comments like that. Stop trolling please, it is not funny anymore...
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On August 21 2012 12:16 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 12:04 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. I've played against people who know to expect gateway openings from me. In fact, they know to expect 2gate expand from me so they know I won't be aggressive while on one base and they know my production directly after expanding is limited. I still haven't seen a direct counter. No, I'm not playing against Stephano and shit, but neither are you. And you are worried that a random player who plays ZvP 1/9 of the time is going to come up with a direct counter. I've gone 3-0 against zergs on ladder doing identical builds up to 7:30 game time. I beat zergs that blindly do things that would be stupid as hell against any other protoss but neatly work against my exact build. If your opponents were somewhat decent (e.g. stephano) there is no way they would be able to lose if they abuse your opening in an intelligent way.
Holy crap you are not going to get a person of higher skill to debate this with than Nony. So now he's here PLEASE don't confine your argument to "nuh-uh you're wrong" with absolutely no fucking evidence whatsoever. Nobody who posts is going to be better placed to give you a good analysis of the situation than this guy, so take your head out of your ass and CONSIDER what he says, at least to the point of actually trying to use some reason to disagree with him. This level of close-mindedness is utterly stupid.
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On August 21 2012 12:26 freakhill wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 12:16 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 12:04 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. I've played against people who know to expect gateway openings from me. In fact, they know to expect 2gate expand from me so they know I won't be aggressive while on one base and they know my production directly after expanding is limited. I still haven't seen a direct counter. No, I'm not playing against Stephano and shit, but neither are you. And you are worried that a random player who plays ZvP 1/9 of the time is going to come up with a direct counter. I've gone 3-0 against zergs on ladder doing identical builds up to 7:30 game time. I beat zergs that blindly do things that would be stupid as hell against any other protoss but neatly work against my exact build. If your opponents were somewhat decent (e.g. stephano) there is no way they would be able to lose if they abuse your opening in an intelligent way. Now now now, this is just ridiculous. You're losing all credibility with comments like that. Stop trolling please, it is not funny anymore...
Wait... this guy had credibility?
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On August 21 2012 12:26 Kasu wrote:Holy crap you are not going to get a person of higher skill to debate this with than Nony. So now he's here PLEASE don't confine your argument to "nuh-uh you're wrong" with absolutely no fucking evidence whatsoever. Nobody who posts is going to be better placed to give you a good analysis of the situation than this guy, so take your head out of your ass and CONSIDER what he says, at least to the point of actually trying to use some reason to disagree with him. This level of close-mindedness is utterly stupid.
Edit: Guess I fell for a troll, but leaving this here in case anybody genuinely adopts this attitude, because quite a few posters in this thread have been close.
On August 21 2012 08:56 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better To give you an example, I went to your latest streaming session and found a PvZ on Cloud Kingdom. You went 2g expo with no probe scout, then you made a 7:00ish pushout with 2 sentries and 5 zealots and turned around upon seeing a spine crawler, then you proceeded to check for a third in the normal third location, then you went home and made 2 additional sentries (for a total of 6 now) and a robo at 7:51. Are you claiming this isnt abusable by a hatch hatch (2nd hatch hidden location) pool into ridiculously hardcore droning and muta-ling play, with just a single spine at his front at 7min?
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Scout on 6. Unless you get really unlucky on a map like TDA, you'll know what race they are before it's time to commit to a Gateway/Forge/Nexus.
I always tell my race if the opponent asks.
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On August 21 2012 12:32 Myrddraal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 12:26 freakhill wrote:On August 21 2012 12:16 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 12:04 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. I've played against people who know to expect gateway openings from me. In fact, they know to expect 2gate expand from me so they know I won't be aggressive while on one base and they know my production directly after expanding is limited. I still haven't seen a direct counter. No, I'm not playing against Stephano and shit, but neither are you. And you are worried that a random player who plays ZvP 1/9 of the time is going to come up with a direct counter. I've gone 3-0 against zergs on ladder doing identical builds up to 7:30 game time. I beat zergs that blindly do things that would be stupid as hell against any other protoss but neatly work against my exact build. If your opponents were somewhat decent (e.g. stephano) there is no way they would be able to lose if they abuse your opening in an intelligent way. Now now now, this is just ridiculous. You're losing all credibility with comments like that. Stop trolling please, it is not funny anymore... Wait... this guy had credibility?
How would credibility make any point I make any less or more relevant?
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On August 21 2012 12:16 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 12:04 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. I've played against people who know to expect gateway openings from me. In fact, they know to expect 2gate expand from me so they know I won't be aggressive while on one base and they know my production directly after expanding is limited. I still haven't seen a direct counter. No, I'm not playing against Stephano and shit, but neither are you. And you are worried that a random player who plays ZvP 1/9 of the time is going to come up with a direct counter. I've gone 3-0 against zergs on ladder doing identical builds up to 7:30 game time. I beat zergs that blindly do things that would be stupid as hell against any other protoss but neatly work against my exact build. If your opponents were somewhat decent (e.g. stephano) there is no way they would be able to lose if they abuse your opening in an intelligent way.
I didn't know Stephano would be considered "somewhat decent". Makes me wonder who I can call "good". Also the thing about safe openings is that they are really hard to outright counter. You might be able to take risks and get ahead, but that's the nature of any opening. So how can you claim there is "no way they would be able to lose"? Why don't you explain how you would abuse the opening? That is unless you are claiming you don't know how to abuse it in an intelligent way.
Edit* You know the opening
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On August 21 2012 12:42 BearStorm wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 12:16 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 12:04 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. I've played against people who know to expect gateway openings from me. In fact, they know to expect 2gate expand from me so they know I won't be aggressive while on one base and they know my production directly after expanding is limited. I still haven't seen a direct counter. No, I'm not playing against Stephano and shit, but neither are you. And you are worried that a random player who plays ZvP 1/9 of the time is going to come up with a direct counter. I've gone 3-0 against zergs on ladder doing identical builds up to 7:30 game time. I beat zergs that blindly do things that would be stupid as hell against any other protoss but neatly work against my exact build. If your opponents were somewhat decent (e.g. stephano) there is no way they would be able to lose if they abuse your opening in an intelligent way. I didn't know Stephano would be considered "somewhat decent". Makes me wonder who I can call "good". Also the thing about safe openings is that they are really hard to outright counter. You might be able to take risks and get ahead, but that's the nature of any opening. So how can you claim there is "no way they would be able to lose"? Why don't you explain how you would abuse the opening? That is unless you are claiming you don't know how to abuse it in an intelligent way. Do you even know the opening?
You can call whoever you consider good good. I quoted the post where I explained an example of a way to abuse. As far as your stating that all openings can be abused, I agree, it's just that FFE has a better worst case scenario.
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When I see Random, I think Cheese, all in play, and no skill outside of those traits.
On a 4 player map, it is VERY hard to guess what race your opponent is, and prepare accordingly for the ensuing cheese, until you scout the race, and the cheese which is being prepared. On 2 player maps, the cheese is even more agressive - I sometimes will scout with my 7 probe to get the race proper, so I can take appropriate action immediately.
As such, I give Random players no ground or respect- I simply cannot be bothered to play against an opponent that cannot even decide what race he wants to be, and moreso they have no desire to learn the minute intricacies related to a specific race. I just leave the match, Random's are not worth my time whatsoever. They can have the points, it's their reward for being a waste of time.
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Nony just won this thread. I don't know how people are still arguing about this. The people hating on random players will not listen to any argument, regardless of how good it is.
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On August 21 2012 12:44 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 12:42 BearStorm wrote:On August 21 2012 12:16 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 12:04 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. I've played against people who know to expect gateway openings from me. In fact, they know to expect 2gate expand from me so they know I won't be aggressive while on one base and they know my production directly after expanding is limited. I still haven't seen a direct counter. No, I'm not playing against Stephano and shit, but neither are you. And you are worried that a random player who plays ZvP 1/9 of the time is going to come up with a direct counter. I've gone 3-0 against zergs on ladder doing identical builds up to 7:30 game time. I beat zergs that blindly do things that would be stupid as hell against any other protoss but neatly work against my exact build. If your opponents were somewhat decent (e.g. stephano) there is no way they would be able to lose if they abuse your opening in an intelligent way. I didn't know Stephano would be considered "somewhat decent". Makes me wonder who I can call "good". Also the thing about safe openings is that they are really hard to outright counter. You might be able to take risks and get ahead, but that's the nature of any opening. So how can you claim there is "no way they would be able to lose"? Why don't you explain how you would abuse the opening? That is unless you are claiming you don't know how to abuse it in an intelligent way. Do you even know the opening? You can call whoever you consider good good. I quoted the post where I explained an example of a way to abuse. As far as your stating that all openings can be abused, I agree, it's just that FFE has a better worst case scenario.
No, that was not a good example of abuse. Hiding a base and crossing your fingers hoping it works out is not a good way to abuse any build; you're trying to exploit a solid build by doing something really exploitable. Taking a risk and being greedy like that can pay off, but if it's unwarranted then it just ends up being a bad play, even if it does last long enough to pay off. And FFE having a better worst case scenario than gateway expands is highly debateable.
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"they choose to play random, it shouldn't affect me or how I play"
If they chose any race, it would affect you and how you play. It sounds to me that you're just upset that you can't take short cuts. If you're so concerned with being able to predict your opponents opener so that you can feel safe, you need to send out an early scout against a random player. It's as simple as that.
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On August 21 2012 13:03 Fyrewolf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 12:44 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 12:42 BearStorm wrote:On August 21 2012 12:16 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 12:04 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:
[quote]
Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. I've played against people who know to expect gateway openings from me. In fact, they know to expect 2gate expand from me so they know I won't be aggressive while on one base and they know my production directly after expanding is limited. I still haven't seen a direct counter. No, I'm not playing against Stephano and shit, but neither are you. And you are worried that a random player who plays ZvP 1/9 of the time is going to come up with a direct counter. I've gone 3-0 against zergs on ladder doing identical builds up to 7:30 game time. I beat zergs that blindly do things that would be stupid as hell against any other protoss but neatly work against my exact build. If your opponents were somewhat decent (e.g. stephano) there is no way they would be able to lose if they abuse your opening in an intelligent way. I didn't know Stephano would be considered "somewhat decent". Makes me wonder who I can call "good". Also the thing about safe openings is that they are really hard to outright counter. You might be able to take risks and get ahead, but that's the nature of any opening. So how can you claim there is "no way they would be able to lose"? Why don't you explain how you would abuse the opening? That is unless you are claiming you don't know how to abuse it in an intelligent way. Do you even know the opening? You can call whoever you consider good good. I quoted the post where I explained an example of a way to abuse. As far as your stating that all openings can be abused, I agree, it's just that FFE has a better worst case scenario. No, that was not a good example of abuse. Hiding a base and crossing your fingers hoping it works out is not a good way to abuse any build; it's trying to exploit a solid build by doing something really exploitable. Taking a risk and being greedy like that can pay off, but if it's unwarranted then it just ends up being a bad play, even if it does last long enough to pay off. And FFE having a better worst case scenario than gateway expands is highly debateable.
You dont seem to understand what abuse means. In my example, how could the risk not pay off?
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On August 21 2012 13:03 Fyrewolf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 12:44 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 12:42 BearStorm wrote:On August 21 2012 12:16 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 12:04 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:
[quote]
Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. I've played against people who know to expect gateway openings from me. In fact, they know to expect 2gate expand from me so they know I won't be aggressive while on one base and they know my production directly after expanding is limited. I still haven't seen a direct counter. No, I'm not playing against Stephano and shit, but neither are you. And you are worried that a random player who plays ZvP 1/9 of the time is going to come up with a direct counter. I've gone 3-0 against zergs on ladder doing identical builds up to 7:30 game time. I beat zergs that blindly do things that would be stupid as hell against any other protoss but neatly work against my exact build. If your opponents were somewhat decent (e.g. stephano) there is no way they would be able to lose if they abuse your opening in an intelligent way. I didn't know Stephano would be considered "somewhat decent". Makes me wonder who I can call "good". Also the thing about safe openings is that they are really hard to outright counter. You might be able to take risks and get ahead, but that's the nature of any opening. So how can you claim there is "no way they would be able to lose"? Why don't you explain how you would abuse the opening? That is unless you are claiming you don't know how to abuse it in an intelligent way. Do you even know the opening? You can call whoever you consider good good. I quoted the post where I explained an example of a way to abuse. As far as your stating that all openings can be abused, I agree, it's just that FFE has a better worst case scenario. No, that was not a good example of abuse. Hiding a base and crossing your fingers hoping it works out is not a good way to abuse any build; you're trying to exploit a solid build by doing something really exploitable. Taking a risk and being greedy like that can pay off, but if it's unwarranted then it just ends up being a bad play, even if it does last long enough to pay off. And FFE having a better worst case scenario than gateway expands is highly debateable.
That's why we see so many top Korean Protosses rely on gateway expands as their reliable build and only FFE when they want to "metagame"?
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EPT
