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I think it's nice meeting randoms.
Since random players exist, I like to get some experience playing them, and get better at playing randoms. It's harder for sure, since you often can't open optimally, but on the other hand the random has to learn 3 times more match-ups than I do (I know, I was one for the first year).
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On August 21 2012 20:05 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 17:59 31415926535 wrote:On August 20 2012 17:03 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 16:51 NicolBolas wrote:On August 20 2012 16:43 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 16:39 boxman22 wrote:On August 20 2012 16:38 Tobberoth wrote:
It could be fixed so easily by Blizzard making it so that the race is shown on the load screen. That way players can enjoy having a random race, while their opponents aren't punished for their choices. I hate PvT, therefore I am punished any time you play terran. I have read many people don't like playing against terrans. Therefore blizzard should ban terran so their opponents aren't punished for their choices. There's a big difference disliking a certain matchup, and disliking your opponent having an unfair advantage, forcing you to play badly. You might suck against a terran, but at least you can improve your build and learn from every match, but there's nothing to learn from a game vs a random who wins because you had to do a shitty opening. There is no evidence that the random only wins "because you had to do a shitty opening." If that were true, you'd see a lot more random pro players. Just because you always lose to randoms doesn't mean that randoms have an insurmountable advantage. No one has said that randoms have an insurmountable advantage, nor that every game you lose against a random depends on their advantage, so your whole post is 100% irrelevant. Point is, they get an advatange, which: A) They don't deserve. B) Which makes the game more boring for their opponent, because it messes up the balance of the early game. Everyone bringing up performance of random players on ladder or in tournaments is completely missing the point. The advantage randoms get isn't there to make them viable in tournaments or on high level, because they aren't. If you pick random, you do so because you want to play random, not because you expect to do awesome with it, so the advantage has no place there. As a random player, if you feel you need this advantage, you're doing it wrong. A) Some people might consider that by having to be proficient at 9 matchups, random players deserve the small information advantage they have at the beginning. If you random, you wont face a "real" matchup but a suboptimal starting build that will transition into a twisted mid/late-game. so randoms do not have to be proficient at 9 matchups at all...
Just like how those REAL Americans will vote for John McCain right? Just because the match-up is slightly different doesn't invalidate it. All the people saying "random players are all skill-less cheesing bastards who ruin the game for us truly dedicated REAL Starcraft players" are - funnily enough - employing an argument used in the 2008 US presidential campaign (a fact which in and of itself should make you ashamed). I played random because I couldn't decide which race to play. Now that I play Zerg - if I match up against random - do you know how many fucks I give? I'll give you a hint - the fuckometer hovers steadily around zero. Just because the opening changes SLIGHTLY and I mean SO slightly - like basically a weevil's fart - doesn't nullify the fact that all players are STILL PLAYING STARCRAFT!!!!!!@!@!@!@ OMG !@!@as Seriously - "Random" means he will spawn as one of the three established SC2 races - not that you will be forced to play a random game or something. "These random players - its like I'm not even playing SC anymore." C'mon guys - stop clenching and allow your testicles to drop out of your torso please.
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Random annoys me to no end.
I like the idea of people playing random and them even getting some bonuses for it like cooler pictures or whatever, not being able to see what race they are just frustates me to no end.
As protoss my openings highly differ against the race I play. Vs zerg it's FFE with 9 scout, vs protoss it's just 13 gate with scouting for proxies and then their main while against terran i usually don't scout and instead ops for a quick stalker. As building placement and scouting patterns/times highly differ there is no good vs everything build for me.
So from the start I'm behind and I'm limited in my tactical options. I have to play some boring, decent vs everything build. At the same time they can be throwing any cheese at me and randoms in my experience do that a lot. It can be anything from 6 pool to proxy gates, cannons, proxy rax, reapers etc.
As a result a game involving a random is way different than normal games you see in tournaments or play yourself most of the time. Because of the uncertainty some options become way too risky and are practically not doable. This makes it somewhat silly for you because you can't practice what you want (what i play vs random is different than my opening vs anything else) and even for them it's different. Random players claim they must know more strategies so it's fair but actually they never play a normal game. You practically never get cheesed as random so you're not playing ZvP for example you're playing random(zerg) v P which is totally different.
Finally the random advantage means those players are ranked higher than they should be for their mechanics because they get a lot of wins partly due to the random advantage (risky openings because they can't be cheesed, cheesing themselves etc.). So when you open somewhat correctly and it does turn into a normal game it's almost always a boring win because the random players are worse in 'normal games' with their inflated rating.
As the final nail in the coffin, random being present on the ladder actually dilutes the balance statements you can do a bit. Zerg for example is better vs random than protoss because they have a bit less deviation in their first minutes and often get in the free scout anyway.
To sum it up, games vs randoms are useless for practice because they are a different kind, the games are unfun because of poor quality (they have a cheese advantage and their rating is inflated) and it's just worse than games where you know your opponents race.
By all means give randoms some cool portraits and other cool rewards but don't give them some silly ingame advantage, especially not one which introduces another huge luck factor.
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On August 21 2012 20:27 Arghmyliver wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 20:05 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On August 20 2012 17:59 31415926535 wrote:On August 20 2012 17:03 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 16:51 NicolBolas wrote:On August 20 2012 16:43 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 16:39 boxman22 wrote:On August 20 2012 16:38 Tobberoth wrote:
It could be fixed so easily by Blizzard making it so that the race is shown on the load screen. That way players can enjoy having a random race, while their opponents aren't punished for their choices. I hate PvT, therefore I am punished any time you play terran. I have read many people don't like playing against terrans. Therefore blizzard should ban terran so their opponents aren't punished for their choices. There's a big difference disliking a certain matchup, and disliking your opponent having an unfair advantage, forcing you to play badly. You might suck against a terran, but at least you can improve your build and learn from every match, but there's nothing to learn from a game vs a random who wins because you had to do a shitty opening. There is no evidence that the random only wins "because you had to do a shitty opening." If that were true, you'd see a lot more random pro players. Just because you always lose to randoms doesn't mean that randoms have an insurmountable advantage. No one has said that randoms have an insurmountable advantage, nor that every game you lose against a random depends on their advantage, so your whole post is 100% irrelevant. Point is, they get an advatange, which: A) They don't deserve. B) Which makes the game more boring for their opponent, because it messes up the balance of the early game. Everyone bringing up performance of random players on ladder or in tournaments is completely missing the point. The advantage randoms get isn't there to make them viable in tournaments or on high level, because they aren't. If you pick random, you do so because you want to play random, not because you expect to do awesome with it, so the advantage has no place there. As a random player, if you feel you need this advantage, you're doing it wrong. A) Some people might consider that by having to be proficient at 9 matchups, random players deserve the small information advantage they have at the beginning. If you random, you wont face a "real" matchup but a suboptimal starting build that will transition into a twisted mid/late-game. so randoms do not have to be proficient at 9 matchups at all... Just like how those REAL Americans will vote for John McCain right? Just because the match-up is slightly different doesn't invalidate it. All the people saying "random players are all skill-less cheesing bastards who ruin the game for us truly dedicated REAL Starcraft players" are - funnily enough - employing an argument used in the 2008 US presidential campaign (a fact which in and of itself should make you ashamed). I played random because I couldn't decide which race to play. Now that I play Zerg - if I match up against random - do you know how many fucks I give? I'll give you a hint - the fuckometer hovers steadily around zero. Just because the opening changes SLIGHTLY and I mean SO slightly - like basically a weevil's fart - doesn't nullify the fact that all players are STILL PLAYING STARCRAFT!!!!!!@!@!@!@ OMG !@!@as Seriously - "Random" means he will spawn as one of the three established SC2 races - not that you will be forced to play a random game or something. "These random players - its like I'm not even playing SC anymore." C'mon guys - stop clenching and allow your testicles to drop out of your torso please.
85% of your post is complete rubbish and in no way genuine arguments...
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On August 21 2012 20:27 Arghmyliver wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 20:05 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On August 20 2012 17:59 31415926535 wrote:On August 20 2012 17:03 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 16:51 NicolBolas wrote:On August 20 2012 16:43 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 16:39 boxman22 wrote:On August 20 2012 16:38 Tobberoth wrote:
It could be fixed so easily by Blizzard making it so that the race is shown on the load screen. That way players can enjoy having a random race, while their opponents aren't punished for their choices. I hate PvT, therefore I am punished any time you play terran. I have read many people don't like playing against terrans. Therefore blizzard should ban terran so their opponents aren't punished for their choices. There's a big difference disliking a certain matchup, and disliking your opponent having an unfair advantage, forcing you to play badly. You might suck against a terran, but at least you can improve your build and learn from every match, but there's nothing to learn from a game vs a random who wins because you had to do a shitty opening. There is no evidence that the random only wins "because you had to do a shitty opening." If that were true, you'd see a lot more random pro players. Just because you always lose to randoms doesn't mean that randoms have an insurmountable advantage. No one has said that randoms have an insurmountable advantage, nor that every game you lose against a random depends on their advantage, so your whole post is 100% irrelevant. Point is, they get an advatange, which: A) They don't deserve. B) Which makes the game more boring for their opponent, because it messes up the balance of the early game. Everyone bringing up performance of random players on ladder or in tournaments is completely missing the point. The advantage randoms get isn't there to make them viable in tournaments or on high level, because they aren't. If you pick random, you do so because you want to play random, not because you expect to do awesome with it, so the advantage has no place there. As a random player, if you feel you need this advantage, you're doing it wrong. A) Some people might consider that by having to be proficient at 9 matchups, random players deserve the small information advantage they have at the beginning. If you random, you wont face a "real" matchup but a suboptimal starting build that will transition into a twisted mid/late-game. so randoms do not have to be proficient at 9 matchups at all... Just like how those REAL Americans will vote for John McCain right? Just because the match-up is slightly different doesn't invalidate it. All the people saying "random players are all skill-less cheesing bastards who ruin the game for us truly dedicated REAL Starcraft players" are - funnily enough - employing an argument used in the 2008 US presidential campaign (a fact which in and of itself should make you ashamed). I played random because I couldn't decide which race to play. Now that I play Zerg - if I match up against random - do you know how many fucks I give? I'll give you a hint - the fuckometer hovers steadily around zero. Just because the opening changes SLIGHTLY and I mean SO slightly - like basically a weevil's fart - doesn't nullify the fact that all players are STILL PLAYING STARCRAFT!!!!!!@!@!@!@ OMG !@!@as Seriously - "Random" means he will spawn as one of the three established SC2 races - not that you will be forced to play a random game or something. "These random players - its like I'm not even playing SC anymore." C'mon guys - stop clenching and allow your testicles to drop out of your torso please.
Please think before you type.
He has a point, as a Random, you are never going to play a ZvP vs an FFE, while its the most common PvZ build. So in a sense you are not playing real ZvP.
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On August 21 2012 20:27 Arghmyliver wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 20:05 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On August 20 2012 17:59 31415926535 wrote:On August 20 2012 17:03 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 16:51 NicolBolas wrote:On August 20 2012 16:43 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 16:39 boxman22 wrote:On August 20 2012 16:38 Tobberoth wrote:
It could be fixed so easily by Blizzard making it so that the race is shown on the load screen. That way players can enjoy having a random race, while their opponents aren't punished for their choices. I hate PvT, therefore I am punished any time you play terran. I have read many people don't like playing against terrans. Therefore blizzard should ban terran so their opponents aren't punished for their choices. There's a big difference disliking a certain matchup, and disliking your opponent having an unfair advantage, forcing you to play badly. You might suck against a terran, but at least you can improve your build and learn from every match, but there's nothing to learn from a game vs a random who wins because you had to do a shitty opening. There is no evidence that the random only wins "because you had to do a shitty opening." If that were true, you'd see a lot more random pro players. Just because you always lose to randoms doesn't mean that randoms have an insurmountable advantage. No one has said that randoms have an insurmountable advantage, nor that every game you lose against a random depends on their advantage, so your whole post is 100% irrelevant. Point is, they get an advatange, which: A) They don't deserve. B) Which makes the game more boring for their opponent, because it messes up the balance of the early game. Everyone bringing up performance of random players on ladder or in tournaments is completely missing the point. The advantage randoms get isn't there to make them viable in tournaments or on high level, because they aren't. If you pick random, you do so because you want to play random, not because you expect to do awesome with it, so the advantage has no place there. As a random player, if you feel you need this advantage, you're doing it wrong. A) Some people might consider that by having to be proficient at 9 matchups, random players deserve the small information advantage they have at the beginning. If you random, you wont face a "real" matchup but a suboptimal starting build that will transition into a twisted mid/late-game. so randoms do not have to be proficient at 9 matchups at all... Just like how those REAL Americans will vote for John McCain right? Just because the match-up is slightly different doesn't invalidate it. All the people saying "random players are all skill-less cheesing bastards who ruin the game for us truly dedicated REAL Starcraft players" are - funnily enough - employing an argument used in the 2008 US presidential campaign (a fact which in and of itself should make you ashamed). I played random because I couldn't decide which race to play. Now that I play Zerg - if I match up against random - do you know how many fucks I give? I'll give you a hint - the fuckometer hovers steadily around zero. Just because the opening changes SLIGHTLY and I mean SO slightly - like basically a weevil's fart - doesn't nullify the fact that all players are STILL PLAYING STARCRAFT!!!!!!@!@!@!@ OMG !@!@as Seriously - "Random" means he will spawn as one of the three established SC2 races - not that you will be forced to play a random game or something. "These random players - its like I'm not even playing SC anymore." C'mon guys - stop clenching and allow your testicles to drop out of your torso please.
jeez don't be such a retard.
Isn't it normal for someone to dislike the hidden information just because someone can't choose between races? By all means I approve people playing multiple races and I wished the game had three separate ratings for races so you could easily switch or play proper random (where your opponents rating is determined by the race you draw).
As it stands random not being shown is just a very weird reward for them playing more races. And because of that reward they are actually not proficient at playing the three races what you should expect. As mentioned some matchups are truly different when involving a random, most notably random(zerg) vs protoss which is very different than just ZvP because of the FFE. As a result a random player is not even familiar with 'normal' or 'real' ZvP whatever you like to call it.
Weird starting advantage plus random players being misrated just causes for less fun games for the player facing the random player. Is that truly neccesary just so there is a button that let's the computer pick a random race for them? Just get rid of the bonus and give randoms other rewards, like higher chance to be invited into beta's for example. That would actually make sense and be a fair reward outside the game itself..
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On August 21 2012 20:40 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 08:40 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:37 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:35 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:33 Fencar wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:
[quote]
Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. You missed a line here: there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Maybe some evidence to the contrary? Saying "You're wrong and I'm right" will get you nowhere fast. So he's saying that 100% of the time he uses this build, teh build goes according to plan and he can get a fast nexus up, with no risk whatsoever? No, but you can't say the same thing about any build that's ever existed in this game. There's no such thing as a 100% fool proof opening in Starcraft and there never will be. All he's claiming is that there isn't any standard Zerg build that specifically counters his. And that's the point, the random opponent knows you are not going for an ffe build. Therefore, he can do a build that will put him ahead, as he knows the protoss will not be doing ffe. The random doesn't have to play standard because the protoss won't be. That's why he can assume there is a gateway expand, and act on it. I don't see how ya'll fail to understand this. Nony's opponents will not be assuming he isn't doing a ffe, because they're zerg, whereas random opponents of mine will. And once again as people seem to be getting the wrong idea, nobody hates random players, just the mechanic. Edit: Have to head off for the night now, it's late in the uk. Will continue the discussion in the thread if it's still around tomorrow. There is more than one way to be ahead. Read my post earlier in this thread - if you fail to adapt to Random players because you qq too much to do anything about it, that's your problem.
as a random player you know your opponent is going to do a safe opening and can take an advantage of that by going hatch/cc/nexus first in every game, and it will pay off more often than not, even though that is not an aggressive cheese, it's def an ecocheese.
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On August 21 2012 20:46 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 20:40 Sated wrote:On August 21 2012 08:40 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:37 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:35 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:33 Fencar wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:
[quote]
Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. You missed a line here: there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Maybe some evidence to the contrary? Saying "You're wrong and I'm right" will get you nowhere fast. So he's saying that 100% of the time he uses this build, teh build goes according to plan and he can get a fast nexus up, with no risk whatsoever? No, but you can't say the same thing about any build that's ever existed in this game. There's no such thing as a 100% fool proof opening in Starcraft and there never will be. All he's claiming is that there isn't any standard Zerg build that specifically counters his. And that's the point, the random opponent knows you are not going for an ffe build. Therefore, he can do a build that will put him ahead, as he knows the protoss will not be doing ffe. The random doesn't have to play standard because the protoss won't be. That's why he can assume there is a gateway expand, and act on it. I don't see how ya'll fail to understand this. Nony's opponents will not be assuming he isn't doing a ffe, because they're zerg, whereas random opponents of mine will. And once again as people seem to be getting the wrong idea, nobody hates random players, just the mechanic. Edit: Have to head off for the night now, it's late in the uk. Will continue the discussion in the thread if it's still around tomorrow. There is more than one way to be ahead. Read my post earlier in this thread - if you fail to adapt to Random players because you qq too much to do anything about it, that's your problem. as a random player you know your opponent is going to do a safe opening and can take an advantage of that by going hatch/cc/nexus first in every game, and it will pay off more often than not, even though that is not an aggressive cheese, it's def an ecocheese.
But if your opponent knows that you'll be going for an early-expand build, they can go for a timing attack or other form of early-game pressure and/or all-in to punish your greed.
So it all balances out in the end. You don't know if he's doing a safe opening or a dangerous one. He doesn't know if you're doing a greedy opening or a safe one. That sounds pretty fair to me.
It's different from regular matchups. But it isn't unfair.
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On August 21 2012 21:22 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 20:46 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On August 21 2012 20:40 Sated wrote:On August 21 2012 08:40 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:37 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:35 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:33 Fencar wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:
[quote]
No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. You missed a line here: there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Maybe some evidence to the contrary? Saying "You're wrong and I'm right" will get you nowhere fast. So he's saying that 100% of the time he uses this build, teh build goes according to plan and he can get a fast nexus up, with no risk whatsoever? No, but you can't say the same thing about any build that's ever existed in this game. There's no such thing as a 100% fool proof opening in Starcraft and there never will be. All he's claiming is that there isn't any standard Zerg build that specifically counters his. And that's the point, the random opponent knows you are not going for an ffe build. Therefore, he can do a build that will put him ahead, as he knows the protoss will not be doing ffe. The random doesn't have to play standard because the protoss won't be. That's why he can assume there is a gateway expand, and act on it. I don't see how ya'll fail to understand this. Nony's opponents will not be assuming he isn't doing a ffe, because they're zerg, whereas random opponents of mine will. And once again as people seem to be getting the wrong idea, nobody hates random players, just the mechanic. Edit: Have to head off for the night now, it's late in the uk. Will continue the discussion in the thread if it's still around tomorrow. There is more than one way to be ahead. Read my post earlier in this thread - if you fail to adapt to Random players because you qq too much to do anything about it, that's your problem. as a random player you know your opponent is going to do a safe opening and can take an advantage of that by going hatch/cc/nexus first in every game, and it will pay off more often than not, even though that is not an aggressive cheese, it's def an ecocheese. But if your opponent knows that you'll be going for an early-expand build, they can go for a timing attack or other form of early-game pressure and/or all-in to punish your greed. So it all balances out in the end. You don't know if he's doing a safe opening or a dangerous one. He doesn't know if you're doing a greedy opening or a safe one. That sounds pretty fair to me. It's different from regular matchups. But it isn't unfair.
I assume that you only read my latest post which is basically a follow up to my "big" post on the previous page, please go and read that, then come back and edit your reply 
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It sounds like random is worse for Protoss to deal with than other races mostly because FFE is so critical in PvZ for most players. It's not totally fair, IMO.
Blizzard should just show what race the random guy gets. When I play random, I'd rather my race be displayed for the other guy anyway because I'd rather play a normal game against the opponents normal build rather than his suboptimal build (caused by wrong build order or even less minerals due to earlier scout than normal).
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On August 21 2012 20:34 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 20:27 Arghmyliver wrote:On August 21 2012 20:05 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On August 20 2012 17:59 31415926535 wrote:On August 20 2012 17:03 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 16:51 NicolBolas wrote:On August 20 2012 16:43 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 16:39 boxman22 wrote:On August 20 2012 16:38 Tobberoth wrote:
It could be fixed so easily by Blizzard making it so that the race is shown on the load screen. That way players can enjoy having a random race, while their opponents aren't punished for their choices. I hate PvT, therefore I am punished any time you play terran. I have read many people don't like playing against terrans. Therefore blizzard should ban terran so their opponents aren't punished for their choices. There's a big difference disliking a certain matchup, and disliking your opponent having an unfair advantage, forcing you to play badly. You might suck against a terran, but at least you can improve your build and learn from every match, but there's nothing to learn from a game vs a random who wins because you had to do a shitty opening. There is no evidence that the random only wins "because you had to do a shitty opening." If that were true, you'd see a lot more random pro players. Just because you always lose to randoms doesn't mean that randoms have an insurmountable advantage. No one has said that randoms have an insurmountable advantage, nor that every game you lose against a random depends on their advantage, so your whole post is 100% irrelevant. Point is, they get an advatange, which: A) They don't deserve. B) Which makes the game more boring for their opponent, because it messes up the balance of the early game. Everyone bringing up performance of random players on ladder or in tournaments is completely missing the point. The advantage randoms get isn't there to make them viable in tournaments or on high level, because they aren't. If you pick random, you do so because you want to play random, not because you expect to do awesome with it, so the advantage has no place there. As a random player, if you feel you need this advantage, you're doing it wrong. A) Some people might consider that by having to be proficient at 9 matchups, random players deserve the small information advantage they have at the beginning. If you random, you wont face a "real" matchup but a suboptimal starting build that will transition into a twisted mid/late-game. so randoms do not have to be proficient at 9 matchups at all... Just like how those REAL Americans will vote for John McCain right? Just because the match-up is slightly different doesn't invalidate it. All the people saying "random players are all skill-less cheesing bastards who ruin the game for us truly dedicated REAL Starcraft players" are - funnily enough - employing an argument used in the 2008 US presidential campaign (a fact which in and of itself should make you ashamed). I played random because I couldn't decide which race to play. Now that I play Zerg - if I match up against random - do you know how many fucks I give? I'll give you a hint - the fuckometer hovers steadily around zero. Just because the opening changes SLIGHTLY and I mean SO slightly - like basically a weevil's fart - doesn't nullify the fact that all players are STILL PLAYING STARCRAFT!!!!!!@!@!@!@ OMG !@!@as Seriously - "Random" means he will spawn as one of the three established SC2 races - not that you will be forced to play a random game or something. "These random players - its like I'm not even playing SC anymore." C'mon guys - stop clenching and allow your testicles to drop out of your torso please. Please think before you type. He has a point, as a Random, you are never going to play a ZvP vs an FFE, while its the most common PvZ build. So in a sense you are not playing real ZvP.
Except the definition of "ZvP" in this sense is not "Forge fast expand" - but rather "A Starcraft game in which one of the two players is Zerg whilst the other is Protoss." So - in every sense - you are playing a real ZvP. A match-up is not defined by a build order - and if it is - that's a problem with game balance and not the Random mechanic. Take the opportunity to diversify your gameplay and send a 12 scout. I've played both random and mained a race. There is no tangible random advantage. You tell yourself there is - and it prevents you from playing with confidence. You try to lift your ego-wing fighter out of the random swamp - and you can't.
I tell you - Random does not have a tangible advantage.
You don't believe it.
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United States11320 Posts
Eh, not a big fan of randoms, because it's always either proxy rax, six pool, or DT rush. One guy mixed it up and went cannons, which was a nice break.
Although the last guy I played was a legit Terran who actually played solidly.
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I can't believe how much qq there is in this thread. Seriously if you believe random is such an advantage go try it. Unlike all the people who say people who play random's mechanics are worse than their level, I would argue it's MUCH higher than their level. Random is really fucking hard to play well. To anyone who disagrees, go play random for 10-15 matches and see what your record is. I highly doubt it will be above 50%.
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On August 21 2012 15:27 droken wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 15:21 TRaFFiC wrote:
Have 0 problem as a Terran. Just 14 depot wall off and scout them. Normally wouldn't wall vs t, but has the extra advantage that they don't know if you took gas. But that is as a terran. What do you think happens if you don't know your playing a PvP? PvP has been so far at least accepted as the most coinflip matchup, and not knowing it's a PvP from the start just makes it more of a coinflip. I actually think that it would be better if the dice showed so we all could see we were facing a random player, but showed the race since all the people here obviously play random just for the sake of playing all three races and as such, they wouldn't mind showing their own race in the beginning. It would save a lot of tears playing the ladder.
If they someday decide to reveal random player's race on the loading screen they should never show that he is a random (only in the score screen & replay data). Why? The common belief especially among the 'random haters' is that the random player is automatically less skilled than their race picking opponent. Due to this these people would likely do aggressive cheese & all-ins more as they think they can end the game quickly as their 'less skilled' random opponent likely cannot hold their aggression.
On August 21 2012 20:05 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 17:59 31415926535 wrote:On August 20 2012 17:03 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 16:51 NicolBolas wrote:On August 20 2012 16:43 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 16:39 boxman22 wrote:On August 20 2012 16:38 Tobberoth wrote:
It could be fixed so easily by Blizzard making it so that the race is shown on the load screen. That way players can enjoy having a random race, while their opponents aren't punished for their choices. I hate PvT, therefore I am punished any time you play terran. I have read many people don't like playing against terrans. Therefore blizzard should ban terran so their opponents aren't punished for their choices. There's a big difference disliking a certain matchup, and disliking your opponent having an unfair advantage, forcing you to play badly. You might suck against a terran, but at least you can improve your build and learn from every match, but there's nothing to learn from a game vs a random who wins because you had to do a shitty opening. There is no evidence that the random only wins "because you had to do a shitty opening." If that were true, you'd see a lot more random pro players. Just because you always lose to randoms doesn't mean that randoms have an insurmountable advantage. No one has said that randoms have an insurmountable advantage, nor that every game you lose against a random depends on their advantage, so your whole post is 100% irrelevant. Point is, they get an advatange, which: A) They don't deserve. B) Which makes the game more boring for their opponent, because it messes up the balance of the early game. Everyone bringing up performance of random players on ladder or in tournaments is completely missing the point. The advantage randoms get isn't there to make them viable in tournaments or on high level, because they aren't. If you pick random, you do so because you want to play random, not because you expect to do awesome with it, so the advantage has no place there. As a random player, if you feel you need this advantage, you're doing it wrong. A) Some people might consider that by having to be proficient at 9 matchups, random players deserve the small information advantage they have at the beginning. If you random, you wont face a "real" matchup but a suboptimal starting build that will transition into a twisted mid/late-game. so randoms do not have to be proficient at 9 matchups at all...
False. You would be surprised how often random players face the currently favored opening for each match-up. In some mu:s more often than in some others. But the tricky part is that against random players people open with much wider range of bo:s than they usually do against race pickers - they sometimes start even with an illogical ones for that mu. Thus if the random player is not blindly cheesing/all-inning, he has to figure out what the opponent is doing, which often means he has to play safe or scout actively both for proxies and enemy base & react based on the scouting info. See my previous post about openings against random.
On August 21 2012 20:46 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 20:40 Sated wrote:On August 21 2012 08:40 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:37 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:35 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:33 Fencar wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:
[quote]
Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. You missed a line here: there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Maybe some evidence to the contrary? Saying "You're wrong and I'm right" will get you nowhere fast. So he's saying that 100% of the time he uses this build, teh build goes according to plan and he can get a fast nexus up, with no risk whatsoever? No, but you can't say the same thing about any build that's ever existed in this game. There's no such thing as a 100% fool proof opening in Starcraft and there never will be. All he's claiming is that there isn't any standard Zerg build that specifically counters his. And that's the point, the random opponent knows you are not going for an ffe build. Therefore, he can do a build that will put him ahead, as he knows the protoss will not be doing ffe. The random doesn't have to play standard because the protoss won't be. That's why he can assume there is a gateway expand, and act on it. I don't see how ya'll fail to understand this. Nony's opponents will not be assuming he isn't doing a ffe, because they're zerg, whereas random opponents of mine will. And once again as people seem to be getting the wrong idea, nobody hates random players, just the mechanic. Edit: Have to head off for the night now, it's late in the uk. Will continue the discussion in the thread if it's still around tomorrow. There is more than one way to be ahead. Read my post earlier in this thread - if you fail to adapt to Random players because you qq too much to do anything about it, that's your problem. as a random player you know your opponent is going to do a safe opening and can take an advantage of that by going hatch/cc/nexus first in every game, and it will pay off more often than not, even though that is not an aggressive cheese, it's def an ecocheese.
No as random you do not know that your opponent is doing a safe build. You can be facing anything between aggressive cheese to greedy economy cheese.
And yes. Opening with greedy CC/Nexus first is an option for a random player (just like it's an option for his race picking opponent), but if he does that he has to be very active with scouting not to lose the game at that point. He has to have a backup plan into which he can transition if he scouts proxies or other early aggression.
Edit: Many race pickers assume lots of things regarding what playing random means. To get broader view one could recommend for them to play some hundreds games as a random to realize how varied the games can be and how small the "your race is not revealed in the beginning" advantage actually is.
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On August 21 2012 20:34 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 20:27 Arghmyliver wrote:On August 21 2012 20:05 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On August 20 2012 17:59 31415926535 wrote:On August 20 2012 17:03 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 16:51 NicolBolas wrote:On August 20 2012 16:43 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 16:39 boxman22 wrote:On August 20 2012 16:38 Tobberoth wrote:
It could be fixed so easily by Blizzard making it so that the race is shown on the load screen. That way players can enjoy having a random race, while their opponents aren't punished for their choices. I hate PvT, therefore I am punished any time you play terran. I have read many people don't like playing against terrans. Therefore blizzard should ban terran so their opponents aren't punished for their choices. There's a big difference disliking a certain matchup, and disliking your opponent having an unfair advantage, forcing you to play badly. You might suck against a terran, but at least you can improve your build and learn from every match, but there's nothing to learn from a game vs a random who wins because you had to do a shitty opening. There is no evidence that the random only wins "because you had to do a shitty opening." If that were true, you'd see a lot more random pro players. Just because you always lose to randoms doesn't mean that randoms have an insurmountable advantage. No one has said that randoms have an insurmountable advantage, nor that every game you lose against a random depends on their advantage, so your whole post is 100% irrelevant. Point is, they get an advatange, which: A) They don't deserve. B) Which makes the game more boring for their opponent, because it messes up the balance of the early game. Everyone bringing up performance of random players on ladder or in tournaments is completely missing the point. The advantage randoms get isn't there to make them viable in tournaments or on high level, because they aren't. If you pick random, you do so because you want to play random, not because you expect to do awesome with it, so the advantage has no place there. As a random player, if you feel you need this advantage, you're doing it wrong. A) Some people might consider that by having to be proficient at 9 matchups, random players deserve the small information advantage they have at the beginning. If you random, you wont face a "real" matchup but a suboptimal starting build that will transition into a twisted mid/late-game. so randoms do not have to be proficient at 9 matchups at all... Just like how those REAL Americans will vote for John McCain right? Just because the match-up is slightly different doesn't invalidate it. All the people saying "random players are all skill-less cheesing bastards who ruin the game for us truly dedicated REAL Starcraft players" are - funnily enough - employing an argument used in the 2008 US presidential campaign (a fact which in and of itself should make you ashamed). I played random because I couldn't decide which race to play. Now that I play Zerg - if I match up against random - do you know how many fucks I give? I'll give you a hint - the fuckometer hovers steadily around zero. Just because the opening changes SLIGHTLY and I mean SO slightly - like basically a weevil's fart - doesn't nullify the fact that all players are STILL PLAYING STARCRAFT!!!!!!@!@!@!@ OMG !@!@as Seriously - "Random" means he will spawn as one of the three established SC2 races - not that you will be forced to play a random game or something. "These random players - its like I'm not even playing SC anymore." C'mon guys - stop clenching and allow your testicles to drop out of your torso please. Please think before you type. He has a point, as a Random, you are never going to play a ZvP vs an FFE, while its the most common PvZ build. So in a sense you are not playing real ZvP.
OH pelase give this argument up. When I play random I DO play vs FFE! Its utter BS that no toss FFEs vs a random zerg, I do it myself where the scouting allows for it. Just in-base pylon like Sase, or go GW first and forge when you normally gate, walling to the nexus instead of at the ramp.
Its not perfect but all this "you can never ever ever FFE vs random zergs" is NOT correct.
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On August 21 2012 22:20 Kasu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 20:34 Squigly wrote:On August 21 2012 20:27 Arghmyliver wrote:On August 21 2012 20:05 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On August 20 2012 17:59 31415926535 wrote:On August 20 2012 17:03 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 16:51 NicolBolas wrote:On August 20 2012 16:43 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 16:39 boxman22 wrote:On August 20 2012 16:38 Tobberoth wrote:
It could be fixed so easily by Blizzard making it so that the race is shown on the load screen. That way players can enjoy having a random race, while their opponents aren't punished for their choices. I hate PvT, therefore I am punished any time you play terran. I have read many people don't like playing against terrans. Therefore blizzard should ban terran so their opponents aren't punished for their choices. There's a big difference disliking a certain matchup, and disliking your opponent having an unfair advantage, forcing you to play badly. You might suck against a terran, but at least you can improve your build and learn from every match, but there's nothing to learn from a game vs a random who wins because you had to do a shitty opening. There is no evidence that the random only wins "because you had to do a shitty opening." If that were true, you'd see a lot more random pro players. Just because you always lose to randoms doesn't mean that randoms have an insurmountable advantage. No one has said that randoms have an insurmountable advantage, nor that every game you lose against a random depends on their advantage, so your whole post is 100% irrelevant. Point is, they get an advatange, which: A) They don't deserve. B) Which makes the game more boring for their opponent, because it messes up the balance of the early game. Everyone bringing up performance of random players on ladder or in tournaments is completely missing the point. The advantage randoms get isn't there to make them viable in tournaments or on high level, because they aren't. If you pick random, you do so because you want to play random, not because you expect to do awesome with it, so the advantage has no place there. As a random player, if you feel you need this advantage, you're doing it wrong. A) Some people might consider that by having to be proficient at 9 matchups, random players deserve the small information advantage they have at the beginning. If you random, you wont face a "real" matchup but a suboptimal starting build that will transition into a twisted mid/late-game. so randoms do not have to be proficient at 9 matchups at all... Just like how those REAL Americans will vote for John McCain right? Just because the match-up is slightly different doesn't invalidate it. All the people saying "random players are all skill-less cheesing bastards who ruin the game for us truly dedicated REAL Starcraft players" are - funnily enough - employing an argument used in the 2008 US presidential campaign (a fact which in and of itself should make you ashamed). I played random because I couldn't decide which race to play. Now that I play Zerg - if I match up against random - do you know how many fucks I give? I'll give you a hint - the fuckometer hovers steadily around zero. Just because the opening changes SLIGHTLY and I mean SO slightly - like basically a weevil's fart - doesn't nullify the fact that all players are STILL PLAYING STARCRAFT!!!!!!@!@!@!@ OMG !@!@as Seriously - "Random" means he will spawn as one of the three established SC2 races - not that you will be forced to play a random game or something. "These random players - its like I'm not even playing SC anymore." C'mon guys - stop clenching and allow your testicles to drop out of your torso please. Please think before you type. He has a point, as a Random, you are never going to play a ZvP vs an FFE, while its the most common PvZ build. So in a sense you are not playing real ZvP. OH pelase give this argument up. When I play random I DO play vs FFE! Its utter BS that no toss FFEs vs a random zerg, I do it myself where the scouting allows for it. Just in-base pylon like Sase, or go GW first and forge when you normally gate, walling to the nexus instead of at the ramp. Its not perfect but all this "you can never ever ever FFE vs random zergs" is NOT correct.
Indeed -- many people generalize about what builds the Random player can do in RvP, without ever having played RvP, and assuming only that the Protoss player will play PvR the same way they do.
As someone who has played Random, Terran, Zerg, and Protoss (for those who care, I'm Masters as all 4 -- not saying I'm good, I'm actually quite astoundingly terrible at this game, but I think I have a relatively unique perspective on it), I can safely say that in my experience what Kasu is saying is quite accurate. When I play R(Z)vP, I always 15 hatch, but I still face 15 nexus, 13forge into cannon rush or FFE, or a lot of the time, gateway openings (sometimes 1 base all-ins, sometimes gateway expands). I understand why, as when I play PvR, I like to mix it up, sometimes 15 nexus, sometimes standard pylon at the ramp, sometimes pylon at my natural, and hoping to scout him in time. I try to make FFE work sometimes against T or P (it fails 95% of the time). Personally, I find playing as Random and against Random to be a nice change of pace from the typical mindless follow-the-metagame openings you see when neither player is Random.
I understand why pro players might be annoyed at having to play against Random on ladder when they are trying to use laddering as practice for tournaments. I don't understand why there are so many people here who whine about not getting their perfect practice. Do you all not enjoy crazy, unorthodox situations in SC games? I think variety is part of what makes SC so much fun.
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On August 21 2012 23:54 JDub wrote:
I understand why pro players might be annoyed at having to play against Random on ladder when they are trying to use laddering as practice for tournaments. I don't understand why there are so many people here who whine about not getting their perfect practice. Do you all not enjoy crazy, unorthodox situations in SC games? I think variety is part of what makes SC so much fun.
I also laugh that these presumably below-masters players need their "practice" exactly as they want it. Probably most of the people complaining would benefit from any SC2 and probably benefit more from having to actually think rather than mindlessly click (or look up a build that's good vs random and THEN mindlessly click).
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lol.. scrubs in this thread think that they cant get real game.
Your level of play is so bad.. it does not resemble any tournament play except for the first 30 food.
Get over yourself.
Seriously if it bothers you so much why not just leave the game.. Add all the randoms to your friend's list and then search when none of them are searching.
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I have the same annoyance versus randoms, my zerg opening is very different from my terran and protoss openings. But if you play a strong macro game vs a random they seem to fall apart so easily, since they have to learn three races they tend to specialize in one base or two base cheese and dont know the mechanics past the 12 minute mark. Thus its very rare to see a random in high masters due to that reason.
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