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On August 21 2012 20:34 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 20:27 Arghmyliver wrote:On August 21 2012 20:05 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On August 20 2012 17:59 31415926535 wrote:On August 20 2012 17:03 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 16:51 NicolBolas wrote:On August 20 2012 16:43 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 16:39 boxman22 wrote:On August 20 2012 16:38 Tobberoth wrote:
It could be fixed so easily by Blizzard making it so that the race is shown on the load screen. That way players can enjoy having a random race, while their opponents aren't punished for their choices. I hate PvT, therefore I am punished any time you play terran. I have read many people don't like playing against terrans. Therefore blizzard should ban terran so their opponents aren't punished for their choices. There's a big difference disliking a certain matchup, and disliking your opponent having an unfair advantage, forcing you to play badly. You might suck against a terran, but at least you can improve your build and learn from every match, but there's nothing to learn from a game vs a random who wins because you had to do a shitty opening. There is no evidence that the random only wins "because you had to do a shitty opening." If that were true, you'd see a lot more random pro players. Just because you always lose to randoms doesn't mean that randoms have an insurmountable advantage. No one has said that randoms have an insurmountable advantage, nor that every game you lose against a random depends on their advantage, so your whole post is 100% irrelevant. Point is, they get an advatange, which: A) They don't deserve. B) Which makes the game more boring for their opponent, because it messes up the balance of the early game. Everyone bringing up performance of random players on ladder or in tournaments is completely missing the point. The advantage randoms get isn't there to make them viable in tournaments or on high level, because they aren't. If you pick random, you do so because you want to play random, not because you expect to do awesome with it, so the advantage has no place there. As a random player, if you feel you need this advantage, you're doing it wrong. A) Some people might consider that by having to be proficient at 9 matchups, random players deserve the small information advantage they have at the beginning. If you random, you wont face a "real" matchup but a suboptimal starting build that will transition into a twisted mid/late-game. so randoms do not have to be proficient at 9 matchups at all... Just like how those REAL Americans will vote for John McCain right? Just because the match-up is slightly different doesn't invalidate it. All the people saying "random players are all skill-less cheesing bastards who ruin the game for us truly dedicated REAL Starcraft players" are - funnily enough - employing an argument used in the 2008 US presidential campaign (a fact which in and of itself should make you ashamed). I played random because I couldn't decide which race to play. Now that I play Zerg - if I match up against random - do you know how many fucks I give? I'll give you a hint - the fuckometer hovers steadily around zero. Just because the opening changes SLIGHTLY and I mean SO slightly - like basically a weevil's fart - doesn't nullify the fact that all players are STILL PLAYING STARCRAFT!!!!!!@!@!@!@ OMG !@!@as Seriously - "Random" means he will spawn as one of the three established SC2 races - not that you will be forced to play a random game or something. "These random players - its like I'm not even playing SC anymore." C'mon guys - stop clenching and allow your testicles to drop out of your torso please. Please think before you type. He has a point, as a Random, you are never going to play a ZvP vs an FFE, while its the most common PvZ build. So in a sense you are not playing real ZvP.
Oh really?
I still face FFE builds as Random, they are just a slightly slower version because the first pylon is in the main followed by a Nexus. It's actually a pretty common opening that Protoss use against me.
Were I 6 pooling on a 2 player map that might be an opportunity for me to abuse my opponent's opening but that would be the same situation were he going for a Nexus first build against Zerg anyway, it's just a calculated risk my opponent takes.
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TLADT24920 Posts
I started the game playing as Zerg in the first two seasons, moved to random for a season then Terran for two more seasons(took a hiatus between random and Terran) and now I've moved back to random because I'm played enough Terran imo. I have really weak MUs and strong ones. I feel comfortable in most Terran and Zerg MUs(mirrors excluded) and less comfortable in any Protoss MUs because I don't feel experienced enough. I feel that my lack of experience is what's holding me back from getting promoted but that's fine.
I rarely cheese even when I choose a specific race. I've only 6 pooled once or twice in all my games and prefer long epic games. I don't understand the notion that going into a game with a random player means that the game will be twisted :S I still 1 rax expand or quick hellions as Terran against Zerg. I still 1 gateway expand as Protoss although I can vary it up with a nexus first or sometimes I go for a stargate or fast blink then expand behind it if I don't outright kill my opponent when I attack. I usually hatch first as Zerg but I've also gone pool first as well and I've also one based before as well.
Just the other day, I got a R(P)vZ on daybreak. I decided that I wanted to go blink stalkers so I went with 1 gate and built my archives then I cancelled it when the OL made his way to my base and rebuilt it after I killed it. I made 3 more gates and pushed into my opponent's base. I managed to outmicro him and took the game. He didn't drone as hard as he could've but he almost held it off if I didn't have blink and avoided sling surrounds. My point? He commented that it's OP and then left. Made my day lol.
Point is that even as random, I still go for macro games but I like aggression in the games and I rarely cheese. If my opponent asks my race, I'll tell them. This whole information advantage in the early game is negligible because no one commenting here is playing on any level where it makes a big difference unless of course, we have GSL players here hehe.
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I feel that Random is actually the best choice if you can possibly master all three of the races. Of course, it may not be easy or even possible for most players but I think if you can master Random, you would have a pretty good advantage even at high levels.
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Love all the people who don't play random trying to say what type of games we play. I've played probably close to 1k ladder games as random, finished top 10 on NA with pure random, managed to hang onto 1st several different seasons for a while, not the greatest but not terrible either. We actually play lots of standard games, any matchup vs terran is 99% standard, most PvPs are 99% standard, the odds of you not scouting me by the time core is done is bad. On 2 player maps, plenty of people still FE in pvz because they can scout a little earlier and easily find me as z, worst case scenario is a 4 player map with last place scout and even then, some people still say fuck it and nexus first. Tons of zergs still hatch first even if they haven't scouted me, it's really not that big of a deal, only vs zerg matchup that is a bit more sketchy is zvz and even then, not by much. I will however agree that it wouldn't be that big of a deal to show the race on the loading screen, but people need to stop acting like it's the end all of the game or matchup. I'm currently only low masters right now but i'll gladly play any of you with any of my races in a so called "fair" game where I pick my race. Utukka 783 if anyone would like to play.
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On August 22 2012 00:08 boxman22 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 23:54 JDub wrote:
I understand why pro players might be annoyed at having to play against Random on ladder when they are trying to use laddering as practice for tournaments. I don't understand why there are so many people here who whine about not getting their perfect practice. Do you all not enjoy crazy, unorthodox situations in SC games? I think variety is part of what makes SC so much fun. I also laugh that these presumably below-masters players need their "practice" exactly as they want it. Probably most of the people complaining would benefit from any SC2 and probably benefit more from having to actually think rather than mindlessly click (or look up a build that's good vs random and THEN mindlessly click).
That is so true. Anyone who is complaining that they can't learn from games vR/that it's suboptimal/a waste of time/etc. will never get good at SC2 with that mentality, because they don't understand how to learn, just how to look up someone elses build order and go through the motions without actually using their brains and thinking about why in order to actually learn.
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I see a lot of people talking about how to play PvR and that it is fine. I'm not disagreeing with it, I said that I don't mind PvR a few times in my posts. My complaint isn't about that, and again, the whole situation doesn't really affect me. As far as the discussion goes (I'm 1.1k Masters, fabled), it's about what place random has in an RTS game.
Read carefully right now and think about what I am saying: Why is random exist in an RTS that strives to maintain balance? I don't care about how Naniwa or Nony open, by the way, so stop bringing it up. For every high level P player that opens gate-expand there are at least three others that open FFE. My claim is that FFE seems to be the best way to play PvZ, and you can't play an FFE in PvR as you would in PvZ. That's the point. The claim is that the random race mechanic forces Protoss to play the same matchup differently, and if you believe FFE is better than gate-expand, then it's a disadvantage. It's basically opinion at this point, but I have not heard any good reason not to display the random's race in the alliance tab in-game so that P players can play a PvR*Z EXACTLY the same as they play PvZ.
Again, I'm not trying to be incendiary, and I don't really care about it when I'm laddering, but in a world where you have DB saying "so-and-so unit doesn't make sense for the setting," there is a cognitive dissonance when that statement is placed alongside the Random race as it exists right now in SC2.
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On August 22 2012 01:26 tehemperorer wrote:
I see a lot of people talking about how to play PvR and that it is fine. I'm not disagreeing with it, I said that I don't mind PvR a few times in my posts. My complaint isn't about that, and again, the whole situation doesn't really affect me. As far as the discussion goes (I'm 1.1k Masters, fabled), it's about what place random has in an RTS game.
Read carefully right now and think about what I am saying: Why is random exist in an RTS that strives to maintain balance? I don't care about how Naniwa or Nony open, by the way, so stop bringing it up. For every high level P player that opens gate-expand there are at least three others that open FFE. My claim is that FFE seems to be the best way to play PvZ, and you can't play an FFE in PvR as you would in PvZ. That's the point. The claim is that the random race mechanic forces Protoss to play the same matchup differently, and if you believe FFE is better than gate-expand, then it's a disadvantage. It's basically opinion at this point, but I have not heard any good reason not to display the random's race in the alliance tab in-game so that P players can play a PvR*Z EXACTLY the same as they play PvZ.
Again, I'm not trying to be incendiary, and I don't really care about it when I'm laddering, but in a world where you have DB saying "so-and-so unit doesn't make sense for the setting," there is a cognitive dissonance when that statement is placed alongside the Random race as it exists right now in SC2.
It's perfectly fine for an RTS. Theres no law book of arbitrary features that are and are not allowed in an RTS game. It's existed in starcraft for longer than a decade and there has never been any issues -- the current complaints of PvR(Z), are not an issue either. It's also not PvZ, it's PvR. You aren't fucking supposed to FFE safely. Stop treating random like it's not a different race requiring a different playstyle when playing against it.
Heres a good reason your suggestion isn't needed: theres no issue with random nor has there ever been. How about a good reason to implement it? You have yet to bring up one. Also don't know why we need to take out of context quotes from DB into account when they're rarely consistent in the game's design, and entirely irrelevant in the case of random.
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As protoss my openings highly differ against the race I play. Vs zerg it's FFE with 9 scout, vs protoss it's just 13 gate with scouting for proxies and then their main while against terran i usually don't scout and instead ops for a quick stalker. As building placement and scouting patterns/times highly differ there is no good vs everything build for me.
So from the start I'm behind and I'm limited in my tactical options. I have to play some boring, decent vs everything build. At the same time they can be throwing any cheese at me and randoms in my experience do that a lot. It can be anything from 6 pool to proxy gates, cannons, proxy rax, reapers etc.
What if I told you you could do gateway openers vs Z? Solves all PvR complaints about FFE. Just learn a different build. I play random, and I had to learn 9 match ups. The least you can do is learn to do other things besides FFE. Scouting for cheese is really easy and defending 6 pool from zerg or random is the same exact thing if you do the same build order. You can actually 1 gate FE vs any race and it's still viable and a great build.
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On August 22 2012 01:40 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 01:26 tehemperorer wrote:
I see a lot of people talking about how to play PvR and that it is fine. I'm not disagreeing with it, I said that I don't mind PvR a few times in my posts. My complaint isn't about that, and again, the whole situation doesn't really affect me. As far as the discussion goes (I'm 1.1k Masters, fabled), it's about what place random has in an RTS game.
Read carefully right now and think about what I am saying: Why is random exist in an RTS that strives to maintain balance? I don't care about how Naniwa or Nony open, by the way, so stop bringing it up. For every high level P player that opens gate-expand there are at least three others that open FFE. My claim is that FFE seems to be the best way to play PvZ, and you can't play an FFE in PvR as you would in PvZ. That's the point. The claim is that the random race mechanic forces Protoss to play the same matchup differently, and if you believe FFE is better than gate-expand, then it's a disadvantage. It's basically opinion at this point, but I have not heard any good reason not to display the random's race in the alliance tab in-game so that P players can play a PvR*Z EXACTLY the same as they play PvZ.
Again, I'm not trying to be incendiary, and I don't really care about it when I'm laddering, but in a world where you have DB saying "so-and-so unit doesn't make sense for the setting," there is a cognitive dissonance when that statement is placed alongside the Random race as it exists right now in SC2. It's perfectly fine for an RTS. Theres no law book of arbitrary features that are and are not allowed in an RTS game. It's existed in starcraft for longer than a decade and there has never been any issues -- the current complaints of PvR(Z), are not an issue either. It's also not PvZ, it's PvR. You aren't fucking supposed to FFE safely. Stop treating random like it's not a different race requiring a different playstyle when playing against it. Heres a good reason your suggestion isn't needed: theres no issue with random nor has there ever been. How about a good reason to implement it? You have yet to bring up one. Also don't know why we need to take out of context quotes from DB into account when they're rarely consistent in the game's design, and entirely irrelevant in the case of random.
That's why I said it was my opinion, as you've stated yours as well; that's fine and cool. To help you out in your reasoning though, the argument "this is how it has always been" rarely holds up to any serious scrutiny.
Don't assume I think I should be able to FFE safely or that I think PvR is an issue. I can't say it enough: it doesn't bother me. I'm pretty much done trying to clarify what I thought was the OP's point because 1) no one wants to really understand the point, 2) the OP was really complaining about imbalance and I started talking about something else, and 3) there is no hope of an actual discussion where people can talk about random without sounding angry.
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As I was getting at before, this dislike (or hatred) of random is just an extension of ladder fear. I don't like playing vs random either, but rather than complain about the lack of knowledge, do something smart about it in game, whether that's just playing better than usual, doing what you believe is a solid build (like Nony), or going for a blind cheese. What? Cheese isn't good practice? I'm pretty sure whenever you see a pro cheese in an important game, he practiced it. Embrace learning and challenge, leave the whining behind.
About 4% of players are random, so I doubt you'll get more practice than is "necessary" to practice what you consider an easy strat like a cheese. To the point: MC is known for having the best all-ins. Are your all-ins as good? All-ins also get a bad rap for being relatively easy to execute, but I doubt they're on MC's level, and I doubt your cannon rushing is Gaulzi's level.
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On August 22 2012 01:57 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 01:40 rd wrote:On August 22 2012 01:26 tehemperorer wrote:
I see a lot of people talking about how to play PvR and that it is fine. I'm not disagreeing with it, I said that I don't mind PvR a few times in my posts. My complaint isn't about that, and again, the whole situation doesn't really affect me. As far as the discussion goes (I'm 1.1k Masters, fabled), it's about what place random has in an RTS game.
Read carefully right now and think about what I am saying: Why is random exist in an RTS that strives to maintain balance? I don't care about how Naniwa or Nony open, by the way, so stop bringing it up. For every high level P player that opens gate-expand there are at least three others that open FFE. My claim is that FFE seems to be the best way to play PvZ, and you can't play an FFE in PvR as you would in PvZ. That's the point. The claim is that the random race mechanic forces Protoss to play the same matchup differently, and if you believe FFE is better than gate-expand, then it's a disadvantage. It's basically opinion at this point, but I have not heard any good reason not to display the random's race in the alliance tab in-game so that P players can play a PvR*Z EXACTLY the same as they play PvZ.
Again, I'm not trying to be incendiary, and I don't really care about it when I'm laddering, but in a world where you have DB saying "so-and-so unit doesn't make sense for the setting," there is a cognitive dissonance when that statement is placed alongside the Random race as it exists right now in SC2. It's perfectly fine for an RTS. Theres no law book of arbitrary features that are and are not allowed in an RTS game. It's existed in starcraft for longer than a decade and there has never been any issues -- the current complaints of PvR(Z), are not an issue either. It's also not PvZ, it's PvR. You aren't fucking supposed to FFE safely. Stop treating random like it's not a different race requiring a different playstyle when playing against it. Heres a good reason your suggestion isn't needed: theres no issue with random nor has there ever been. How about a good reason to implement it? You have yet to bring up one. Also don't know why we need to take out of context quotes from DB into account when they're rarely consistent in the game's design, and entirely irrelevant in the case of random. That's why I said it was my opinion, as you've stated yours as well; that's fine and cool. To help you out in your reasoning though, the argument "this is how it has always been" rarely holds up to any serious scrutiny. Don't assume I think I should be able to FFE safely or that I think PvR is an issue. I can't say it enough: it doesn't bother me. I'm pretty much done trying to clarify what I thought was the OP's point because 1) no one wants to really understand the point, 2) the OP was really complaining about imbalance and I started talking about something else, and 3) there is no hope of an actual discussion where people can talk about random without sounding angry.
The question why it must exist can be answered with it has always existed. The dozen years it's been around is the silent approval of it functioning as it should be, or at least the way the community has accepted it to function. Why should it be removed on the basis of 'no argument for it' when every argument against it holds little foundation? You could literally pose that upon any feature transcended from starcraft in an attempt to justify it's removal.
1) Does understanding the OP's point require you to agree with it? Because it's been restated in some form several dozen times in this thread and has been met with the same sympathy and criticism. He's also made dozens of posts and has tried to approach this at every angle possible. Sounds like it's well understood.
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On August 22 2012 02:10 Ansinjunger wrote:
As I was getting at before, this dislike (or hatred) of random is just an extension of ladder fear. I don't like playing vs random either, but rather than complain about the lack of knowledge, do something smart about it in game, whether that's just playing better than usual, doing what you believe is a solid build (like Nony), or going for a blind cheese. What? Cheese isn't good practice? I'm pretty sure whenever you see a pro cheese in an important game, he practiced it. Embrace learning and challenge, leave the whining behind.
About 4% of players are random, so I doubt you'll get more practice than is "necessary" to practice what you consider an easy strat like a cheese. To the point: MC is known for having the best all-ins. Are your all-ins as good? All-ins also get a bad rap for being relatively easy to execute, but I doubt they're on MC's level, and I doubt your cannon rushing is Gaulzi's level.
no.... just no....
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I feel like blizzard should have a button that allows you to announce your race because lets be honest, the average Battle.net patrons aren't really noted for their honesty...
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On August 22 2012 02:30 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 02:10 Ansinjunger wrote:
As I was getting at before, this dislike (or hatred) of random is just an extension of ladder fear. I don't like playing vs random either, but rather than complain about the lack of knowledge, do something smart about it in game, whether that's just playing better than usual, doing what you believe is a solid build (like Nony), or going for a blind cheese. What? Cheese isn't good practice? I'm pretty sure whenever you see a pro cheese in an important game, he practiced it. Embrace learning and challenge, leave the whining behind.
About 4% of players are random, so I doubt you'll get more practice than is "necessary" to practice what you consider an easy strat like a cheese. To the point: MC is known for having the best all-ins. Are your all-ins as good? All-ins also get a bad rap for being relatively easy to execute, but I doubt they're on MC's level, and I doubt your cannon rushing is Gaulzi's level. no.... just no....
Yeah man, why would anyone want to practice anything else than their ONE SINGLE opening against each race, every once in 20-30 games? Silly geese.
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On August 20 2012 04:10 Zetter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 03:56 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 03:46 K3Nyy wrote:On August 20 2012 03:35 ChiknAdobo wrote:
For all the people who are saying you can't get good practice by playing against random I don't think you understand what it means to get good practice. Unless you are tip top masters or GM your opener has the least influential impact on the outcome of the game. Good practice is working on your macro and mechanics effectively. So just because you have to adapt your build a little bit at the beginning that isn't why you lose a game. The main reason why you lose is because you get supply blocked or aren't making continuous workers or not hitting your injects. You don't lose a game because you went 1 gate FE instead of FFE. And for the people who complain about randoms always cheesing (which at higher levels for the most part is false) playing against random challenges your crisis control and scouting. If you are using a build that can't hold off an early pool or proxy unless you know what race they are playing ahead of time then that isn't a good build. So stop the QQ and realize that playing against random forces you to scout better and to really focus on good mechanics. Totally agree with this 100%. Most people that complain are too low level to have the right to complain about anything and should just focus on their fundamentals first. Yeah it's unfair, but no, you're not losing because of it. I have to disagree with this. I am losing pvr(z)'s because of not being able to ffe. And to your first point, nobody here is complaining abbout in game balance with this, it's the lack of information that provides a huge advantage in the early game to the random player, that depending on the matchup, can affect the late game. Also, random players can do strategies that normally would not work if the opponent knew the race. Because they queued random, they can get away with certain things. That is where I personally draw a line, when a strategy can work because they queued random. You realize that there's a lot more openings than ffe in PvZ? And you realize that ZvP is the hardest matchup for random players, because it's impossible to practice it? MMR statistics don't lie, Random is by far the weakest race on the ladder. I'm always happy when I play against random, because it means an easier win for me. That stuff about cheesing makes no sense as well. Regardless of the matchup being PvR, PvZ, PvT or PvP, either I scout the cheese and can prepare for it or I don't scout it and am most likely screwed. Since I scout earlier vs Random as well, it's way more easy for me to hold a random cheese than a protoss cheese, which is somewhat impossible, since I scout very late if I know my opponent is toss.
Try Playing KnighTLighT, he is a random player
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On August 22 2012 06:29 CubEdIn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 02:30 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On August 22 2012 02:10 Ansinjunger wrote:
As I was getting at before, this dislike (or hatred) of random is just an extension of ladder fear. I don't like playing vs random either, but rather than complain about the lack of knowledge, do something smart about it in game, whether that's just playing better than usual, doing what you believe is a solid build (like Nony), or going for a blind cheese. What? Cheese isn't good practice? I'm pretty sure whenever you see a pro cheese in an important game, he practiced it. Embrace learning and challenge, leave the whining behind.
About 4% of players are random, so I doubt you'll get more practice than is "necessary" to practice what you consider an easy strat like a cheese. To the point: MC is known for having the best all-ins. Are your all-ins as good? All-ins also get a bad rap for being relatively easy to execute, but I doubt they're on MC's level, and I doubt your cannon rushing is Gaulzi's level. no.... just no.... Yeah man, why would anyone want to practice anything else than their ONE SINGLE opening against each race, every once in 20-30 games? Silly geese.
Don't you know man? There is only 1 single optimal opener for each matchup! I insta leave any game where zerg doesn't go 15 hatch, becauase you know, it's horrible practice. And ladder is all about the practice bro.
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The only advantage that random players get ends after they are scouted. It's unfortunate for Protoss players who seem to think that ALL they can do is Forge FE, but you can still do a 1 gate expo, or 3 gate Expo, or you can find a new opener that may work as well. For anyone else, you have hatch first as Zerg, which is completely safe, you can do a 1 rax FE, probably the safest build in the game, you have plenty of options vs a Random player.
I would say that it helps players practice more because it makes them think on their feet, and react to what they see and it helps them captialize when they're thrown off their game.
To be honest, sometimes I tell people my race, sometimes I don't, hell, sometimes I lie! It's all fun for me and I love watching players freak out because they don't know anything other than their typical build, maybe some players should stop being 1 trick ponies and learn something other than a Forge FE.
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On August 23 2012 04:45 FortMonty wrote:
The only advantage that random players get ends after they are scouted. It's unfortunate for Protoss players who seem to think that ALL they can do is Forge FE, but you can still do a 1 gate expo, or 3 gate Expo, or you can find a new opener that may work as well. For anyone else, you have hatch first as Zerg, which is completely safe, you can do a 1 rax FE, probably the safest build in the game, you have plenty of options vs a Random player.
I would say that it helps players practice more because it makes them think on their feet, and react to what they see and it helps them captialize when they're thrown off their game.
To be honest, sometimes I tell people my race, sometimes I don't, hell, sometimes I lie! It's all fun for me and I love watching players freak out because they don't know anything other than their typical build, maybe some players should stop being 1 trick ponies and learn something other than a Forge FE.
Yeah guys111!!1! Lets lie about our race to players so that we can watch them do non viable builds and then call them 1 trick ponies!!
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On August 23 2012 05:08 P7GAB wrote:
Yeah guys111!!1! Lets lie about our race to players so that we can watch them do non viable builds and then call them 1 trick ponies!!
Technically if I lied about my race that doesn't mean I'm going to do the same build lol. 1 trick pony measn that all toss want to do is FFE vs Zerg but because I'm Random, they can't safely do so. Sorry, but you should learn the 3 gate Expand or a 1 Gate expand and suck it up. No sense in being a god damn cry baby cause you can't hide beind your cannons. I also only sometimes do that since 80% of the people I play against don't believe me anyway so what's it matter lol.
You guys are so cute with your QQ about random being SOOOO advantageous in the beginning because 1 of the 9 possible match ups that a random faces is thrown off somewhat. Sorry, but I have no sympathy for people who are scared to experiement rather than practice what they saw MC do.
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EPT
