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On August 20 2012 18:03 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 06:51 rd wrote:
Actually I wanna rant more at this. Because the notion that random has an advantage at the start is apparently so overwhelming, that no one plays random competitively.
Just some figures:
Of all the major tournaments (that I care to list),
0 random players have won GSL.
0 random players have won MLG.
0 random players have won ESL.
0 random players have won IPL.
0 random players have won NASL.
0 random players have won Dreamhack.
0 random players have won HSC.
Name a tournament I didn't list so I can say 0.
You know, most tourneys doesn't allow random... for a very obvious reason. The % of players who play random doesn't matter. If you play random and want it to be hidden because that keep your opponents on his toes, you are just a minority of players who isn't getting better because isn't getting real openings. Have fun with your circular logic tho. I don't care btw, people who honestly just enjoy playing 3 races and getting better with them will just tell the race at the beginning like d.apollo does. ;P
GSL, MLG, NASL, IPL all allow random I know that for sure. I haven't bothered to check ESL, Dreamhack and HSC but they probably do too...
Edit: Also from experience I know playhem and z33k dailies allow random as well
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On August 20 2012 18:09 playa wrote:
If you're not playing random to gain an advantage, then you're saying you don't care what race you play. If you're not trying to gain an advantage, then I don't see why you can't choose random and have it pick your race on the spot and show it (to you and your opponent). Now, if you're playing random for an advantage and this game is supposed to strive for balance, then it makes next to no sense to allow an inherent advantage to be had when it's the easiest thing to balance: show both races. It really makes balance whining seem futile when obvious advantages are overlooked for w/e reasons. It seems hypocritical to me.
Blizzard has made it very clear that the question isn't whether something is imbalanced, but it's whether something meets their magical 55% in favor of one race imbalance. The question "can we easily make this game more balanced even if we don't think our magical number of having to give a shit has been met?" doesn't seem to be very important. Or, simply, the answer is why give a shit?
It's the principle more than the advantage that bothers me. I usually just leave versus random, depending on mood. Since there is an advantage for them, if you scout them on your first try and you're not bo fucked, you pretty much are going to win (inflated mmr). If it's pvz and you didn't take a bad 33% gamble on ffe, then you should prob lose. It's just bad practice, either way. And, until players are actually using random in tournaments, it's not really worth the practice. And, if they were, more prominent people might bitch about it and blizzard might have to magically start giving a shit.
I don't think playing random is that much of a disadvantage in that you have to be able to play all the races. If you have played both sides of a mu, then you will know your understanding of the matchup is pretty much better than anyone that doesn't play both sides of it. Call me crazy, but it's a pretty big advantage that should negate the disadvantages that come with having to practice every mu.
Keep it simple. Does something provide an advantage. Yes. Can it easily be fixed. Yes. Ok, stop wasting time.
You make no sense.
"Keep it simple. Does something provide an advantage. Yes. Can it easily be fixed. Yes. Ok, stop wasting time."
-> Marine
provide an advantage? check!
easily fixed? check! (just hafta remove them!)
Ok, stop wasting time.
It's your problem if you do not want to play the game, let random players, actually playing the game, out of it.
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On August 20 2012 18:30 freakhill wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 18:09 playa wrote:
If you're not playing random to gain an advantage, then you're saying you don't care what race you play. If you're not trying to gain an advantage, then I don't see why you can't choose random and have it pick your race on the spot and show it (to you and your opponent). Now, if you're playing random for an advantage and this game is supposed to strive for balance, then it makes next to no sense to allow an inherent advantage to be had when it's the easiest thing to balance: show both races. It really makes balance whining seem futile when obvious advantages are overlooked for w/e reasons. It seems hypocritical to me.
Blizzard has made it very clear that the question isn't whether something is imbalanced, but it's whether something meets their magical 55% in favor of one race imbalance. The question "can we easily make this game more balanced even if we don't think our magical number of having to give a shit has been met?" doesn't seem to be very important. Or, simply, the answer is why give a shit?
It's the principle more than the advantage that bothers me. I usually just leave versus random, depending on mood. Since there is an advantage for them, if you scout them on your first try and you're not bo fucked, you pretty much are going to win (inflated mmr). If it's pvz and you didn't take a bad 33% gamble on ffe, then you should prob lose. It's just bad practice, either way. And, until players are actually using random in tournaments, it's not really worth the practice. And, if they were, more prominent people might bitch about it and blizzard might have to magically start giving a shit.
I don't think playing random is that much of a disadvantage in that you have to be able to play all the races. If you have played both sides of a mu, then you will know your understanding of the matchup is pretty much better than anyone that doesn't play both sides of it. Call me crazy, but it's a pretty big advantage that should negate the disadvantages that come with having to practice every mu.
Keep it simple. Does something provide an advantage. Yes. Can it easily be fixed. Yes. Ok, stop wasting time.
You make no sense. "Keep it simple. Does something provide an advantage. Yes. Can it easily be fixed. Yes. Ok, stop wasting time." -> Marine provide an advantage? check! easily fixed? check! (just hafta remove them!) Ok, stop wasting time. It's your problem if you do not want to play the game, let random players, actually playing the game, out of it.
Wow, you must be very proud to make such an superb analogy.
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On August 20 2012 18:30 freakhill wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 18:09 playa wrote:
If you're not playing random to gain an advantage, then you're saying you don't care what race you play. If you're not trying to gain an advantage, then I don't see why you can't choose random and have it pick your race on the spot and show it (to you and your opponent). Now, if you're playing random for an advantage and this game is supposed to strive for balance, then it makes next to no sense to allow an inherent advantage to be had when it's the easiest thing to balance: show both races. It really makes balance whining seem futile when obvious advantages are overlooked for w/e reasons. It seems hypocritical to me.
Blizzard has made it very clear that the question isn't whether something is imbalanced, but it's whether something meets their magical 55% in favor of one race imbalance. The question "can we easily make this game more balanced even if we don't think our magical number of having to give a shit has been met?" doesn't seem to be very important. Or, simply, the answer is why give a shit?
It's the principle more than the advantage that bothers me. I usually just leave versus random, depending on mood. Since there is an advantage for them, if you scout them on your first try and you're not bo fucked, you pretty much are going to win (inflated mmr). If it's pvz and you didn't take a bad 33% gamble on ffe, then you should prob lose. It's just bad practice, either way. And, until players are actually using random in tournaments, it's not really worth the practice. And, if they were, more prominent people might bitch about it and blizzard might have to magically start giving a shit.
I don't think playing random is that much of a disadvantage in that you have to be able to play all the races. If you have played both sides of a mu, then you will know your understanding of the matchup is pretty much better than anyone that doesn't play both sides of it. Call me crazy, but it's a pretty big advantage that should negate the disadvantages that come with having to practice every mu.
Keep it simple. Does something provide an advantage. Yes. Can it easily be fixed. Yes. Ok, stop wasting time.
You make no sense. "Keep it simple. Does something provide an advantage. Yes. Can it easily be fixed. Yes. Ok, stop wasting time." -> Marine provide an advantage? check! easily fixed? check! (just hafta remove them!) Ok, stop wasting time. It's your problem if you do not want to play the game, let random players, actually playing the game, out of it.
Are you seriously going to make that parallel? Tell me why you think random doesn't provide an advantage or stfu. If you think tvz is imbalanced then it's your problem. Let the zerg players that enjoy their advantage take your points or find another game.
Believe it or not, this game wasn't made by god. It was probably made by fallible people that couldn't even see it becoming the esport that it has become. Things aren't set in stone (shouldn't be at least). The question for blizzard isn't whether it's unfair. It's whether it's 55% unfair. If you don't see this as an advantage then you might be blind. If you can't answer the question of who has an advantage when one person knows their opponent's race and the other player doesn't know theirs, then maybe you should try playing another genre.
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On August 20 2012 18:38 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 18:30 freakhill wrote:On August 20 2012 18:09 playa wrote:
If you're not playing random to gain an advantage, then you're saying you don't care what race you play. If you're not trying to gain an advantage, then I don't see why you can't choose random and have it pick your race on the spot and show it (to you and your opponent). Now, if you're playing random for an advantage and this game is supposed to strive for balance, then it makes next to no sense to allow an inherent advantage to be had when it's the easiest thing to balance: show both races. It really makes balance whining seem futile when obvious advantages are overlooked for w/e reasons. It seems hypocritical to me.
Blizzard has made it very clear that the question isn't whether something is imbalanced, but it's whether something meets their magical 55% in favor of one race imbalance. The question "can we easily make this game more balanced even if we don't think our magical number of having to give a shit has been met?" doesn't seem to be very important. Or, simply, the answer is why give a shit?
It's the principle more than the advantage that bothers me. I usually just leave versus random, depending on mood. Since there is an advantage for them, if you scout them on your first try and you're not bo fucked, you pretty much are going to win (inflated mmr). If it's pvz and you didn't take a bad 33% gamble on ffe, then you should prob lose. It's just bad practice, either way. And, until players are actually using random in tournaments, it's not really worth the practice. And, if they were, more prominent people might bitch about it and blizzard might have to magically start giving a shit.
I don't think playing random is that much of a disadvantage in that you have to be able to play all the races. If you have played both sides of a mu, then you will know your understanding of the matchup is pretty much better than anyone that doesn't play both sides of it. Call me crazy, but it's a pretty big advantage that should negate the disadvantages that come with having to practice every mu.
Keep it simple. Does something provide an advantage. Yes. Can it easily be fixed. Yes. Ok, stop wasting time.
You make no sense. "Keep it simple. Does something provide an advantage. Yes. Can it easily be fixed. Yes. Ok, stop wasting time." -> Marine provide an advantage? check! easily fixed? check! (just hafta remove them!) Ok, stop wasting time. It's your problem if you do not want to play the game, let random players, actually playing the game, out of it. Are you seriously going to make that parallel? Tell me why you think random doesn't provide an advantage or stfu. If you think tvz is imbalanced then it's your problem. Let the zerg players that enjoy their advantage take your points or find another game. Believe it or not, this game wasn't made by god. It was probably made by fallible people that couldn't even see it becoming the esport that it has become. Things aren't set in stone (shouldn't be at least). The question for blizzard isn't whether it's unfair. It's whether it's 55% unfair. If you don't see this as an advantage then you might be blind. If you can't answer the question of who has an advantage when one person knows their opponent's race and the other player doesn't know theirs, then maybe you should try playing another genre.
Of course Random has an information advantage, it's the design of the race! It's not enough though since it's the weakest race by far.
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On August 20 2012 18:44 freakhill wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 18:38 playa wrote:On August 20 2012 18:30 freakhill wrote:On August 20 2012 18:09 playa wrote:
If you're not playing random to gain an advantage, then you're saying you don't care what race you play. If you're not trying to gain an advantage, then I don't see why you can't choose random and have it pick your race on the spot and show it (to you and your opponent). Now, if you're playing random for an advantage and this game is supposed to strive for balance, then it makes next to no sense to allow an inherent advantage to be had when it's the easiest thing to balance: show both races. It really makes balance whining seem futile when obvious advantages are overlooked for w/e reasons. It seems hypocritical to me.
Blizzard has made it very clear that the question isn't whether something is imbalanced, but it's whether something meets their magical 55% in favor of one race imbalance. The question "can we easily make this game more balanced even if we don't think our magical number of having to give a shit has been met?" doesn't seem to be very important. Or, simply, the answer is why give a shit?
It's the principle more than the advantage that bothers me. I usually just leave versus random, depending on mood. Since there is an advantage for them, if you scout them on your first try and you're not bo fucked, you pretty much are going to win (inflated mmr). If it's pvz and you didn't take a bad 33% gamble on ffe, then you should prob lose. It's just bad practice, either way. And, until players are actually using random in tournaments, it's not really worth the practice. And, if they were, more prominent people might bitch about it and blizzard might have to magically start giving a shit.
I don't think playing random is that much of a disadvantage in that you have to be able to play all the races. If you have played both sides of a mu, then you will know your understanding of the matchup is pretty much better than anyone that doesn't play both sides of it. Call me crazy, but it's a pretty big advantage that should negate the disadvantages that come with having to practice every mu.
Keep it simple. Does something provide an advantage. Yes. Can it easily be fixed. Yes. Ok, stop wasting time.
You make no sense. "Keep it simple. Does something provide an advantage. Yes. Can it easily be fixed. Yes. Ok, stop wasting time." -> Marine provide an advantage? check! easily fixed? check! (just hafta remove them!) Ok, stop wasting time. It's your problem if you do not want to play the game, let random players, actually playing the game, out of it. Are you seriously going to make that parallel? Tell me why you think random doesn't provide an advantage or stfu. If you think tvz is imbalanced then it's your problem. Let the zerg players that enjoy their advantage take your points or find another game. Believe it or not, this game wasn't made by god. It was probably made by fallible people that couldn't even see it becoming the esport that it has become. Things aren't set in stone (shouldn't be at least). The question for blizzard isn't whether it's unfair. It's whether it's 55% unfair. If you don't see this as an advantage then you might be blind. If you can't answer the question of who has an advantage when one person knows their opponent's race and the other player doesn't know theirs, then maybe you should try playing another genre. Of course Random has an information advantage, it's the design of the race! It's not enough though since it's the weakest race by far.
So, say zvt were imbalanced (not saying it is or isn't), but I'm now at a disadvantage because I just randomed zerg? So, I would have an inherent information advantage + mu advantage, but since I picked random, I'm weak. I think random is weak because no one freaking plays random compared to the other races. If only 10k people in the world played zerg, zerg would be the "worst" race. When you factor in that playing random probably does require a lot more games, combined with only casual players playing random (players that don't play enough to get good), then yeah that's why you don't see random high up.
Naturally, one might ask then, why don't more players play random in tournaments. Whether based in principle or not, even most players that random on ladder end up with matchups that are distinctively better than others, thus think picking one mu will outweigh any possible advantage of picking random in a tournament. Thus, it's probably not worth pursuing.
But, until picking random causes your units to have like 10% less HP, it's not the race that is weak... it's you... ugh. Unless random truly has you spawn as some fourth race that can't otherwise be chosen.
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Why when you play you need to learn something? I play random just to have fun, to force players all-in me, to get awesome BM. I can understand it's a different type of fun, but i think i'm not alone there... if you don't like playing against Random, you can always leave (i mean it), because percent of games against random is soooo minor it will not affect your MMR at all.
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Wow, PartinG is playing a PVZ and building a pylon INSIDE HIS MAIN. He's clearly guaranteed to lose now with such a massive disadvantage.
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I play random and I have to say I kinda agree with the original poster, when I get a RvR and I end up in a PvZ, its basically auto loss if my opponent plays correctly. Other than that it definitely narrows down the builds I can use but doesn't really effect the outcome. I announce my race when I play random, usually (sometimes I forget). However I couldn't care less about ladder points, I play only for fun and you can't play proper games otherwise. I really wish random displayed your race in the loading screen - it would let me get ready to build the correct worker and lets my opponent know my race.
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I was playing at like 3:am, a time where the player pool is obviously smaller. I got matched up against a random player 7 times in a row. I insta left every time, on principle and that it's pointless practice. If you're playing against random, your mmr is probably too low and you do simply need to get better, as hardly anyone plays random. So, there are always bigger things to focus on. That said, what probably tilted me the most as a beginning player was that 99% of the time it seemed, I would always be slightly favored against random opponents. Just that irony, as a toss player, where all your builds vary vastly depending on the race would piss me off. If I can't tell what race the guy is without basically donating a bunch of minerals to him, don't make me favored unless the guy is playing blind folded. Can I at least ask for that.
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Honestly I'd have 0 problem with random if the fucking game would just show the race during the loading screen instead of random.
Personally I'm randoming atm, telling my opponent my race at the start of the game so I get real games. Sadly some of them seriously don't believe me and ruin their experience and my own as well T.T
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It has been mentioned on this thread before , but I would love it if blizzard display's the random race during the loading screen , this way the random player gets to play whatever race he gets and the opposition isn't at a disadvantage early on.
example
Player Y
Random (zerg)
Edit : the spaces didn't display like I wanted
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On August 20 2012 19:51 Lorch wrote:
Honestly I'd have 0 problem with random if the fucking game would just show the race during the loading screen instead of random.
Personally I'm randoming atm, telling my opponent my race at the start of the game so I get real games. Sadly some of them seriously don't believe me and ruin their experience and my own as well T.T
Play once against a "Zerg" and open FFE to get 4Gated. You will never trust a Random player again.
Which is exactly the problem with not showing the race during loading screen. It would just create better matches.
On August 20 2012 19:56 Tchado wrote:
It has been mentioned on this thread before , but I would love it if blizzard display's the random race during the loading screen , this way the random player gets to play whatever race he gets and the opposition isn't at a disadvantage early on.
example
Player Y
Random (zerg)
Edit : the spaces didn't display like I wanted
I'd rather not have it saying "Random" since it would probably affect the game.
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Play once against a "Zerg" and open FFE to get 4Gated. You will never trust a Random player
My favourite was the guy I played against who spent the first two minutes of the map complaining about how he'd rolled Zerg and had been getting it all day. Scouted him last and he was Terran. Promptly hit with a full-on Marine/SCV all-in.
Never trust a random. Proxy 2-gate all of them. Gets the game out of the way so can just move on. Works a lot of the time as well. 
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On August 20 2012 19:51 Lorch wrote:
Honestly I'd have 0 problem with random if the fucking game would just show the race during the loading screen instead of random.
Honestly I'd have 0 problem with terran if the fucking game would just show me what's behind his wall in main.
Random race is part of this game and it's the hardest one.
I really would love to see great random pro player in torunament doing well. That would give so much more adrenaline.
About the ladder. Random is just another race so they have also about 50% winrate. That is, you have about 50% to win. How is this not balanced?
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I'm loving the stories about people saying they've rolled X when they actually rolled Y, just to throw their opponents off
Shows how lame some of the people playing random are.
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On August 20 2012 17:53 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 17:48 boxman22 wrote:On August 20 2012 17:40 Tobberoth wrote:
Your arguments are irrelevant. It doesn't matter IF you can play a certain way vs all races, the point is that you don't WANT to because it doesn't improve your game. There's is depth in SC2 in how you have different styles for all matchups, and that grows from the start of the game. You can scout on 9, sure, but there's no guarantee you'll scout your opponent fast enough to decide on opening build on some maps, so you'll have to scout even earlier, which messes up your economy.
Basically, your whole argument is something along the lines of "Random is a fourth race, you have to play differently vs randoms or you're doing it wrong", when my point is there's no fucking need, just have the race show up on the loading screen. There's no con to that, and massive benefit. Hell, the opponent shouldn't even have to know you're playing random, he's just having another normal game.
If the information advantage is so extremely minor, like you guys are saying, what's the argument for NOT removing it, when it makes the game more boring for your opponents? Ah finally the complaints. If you're below grandmaster, then you have more than enough things to work on that "wasting your time" beating a cheese with a highly defensive standard opener is going to help you. Scouting on 9 is not to decide your opener but to scout the cheese that most people seem to expect. And yes, random should be treated like a 4th race. The massive benefit is, in essence, a 4TH RACE without creating one. Just because you don't like to have to think doesn't mean that Blizz should get rid of a portion of the game. The information advantage is minor but it exists. It doesn't make the game more boring because, apparently, you have literally no clue how to deal with random. Learning how to deal with random should be a goal of yours and then all of a sudden, more fun! More strategies to have to think of. More openings to deal with. More new situations to be in. Random is great and should be left alone. So basically, your whole argument comes down to ad hominem. I apparently suck against randoms (which I don't. You hold their pathetic cheese and crush them because they are terrible and play random to cheese using an unfair advantage) and I don't think, which is why I don't want a 4th race. Truth is, it's NOT a forth race, no matter how much you'd like to think so. It's a dice throw, coupled with an unfair information advatange which makes the game boring. Nothing else. As soon as you hold their pathetic cheese, or at least get to the midgame after using a suboptimal build, it's just a normal vT, vP or vZ game, only difference being that you're opening might have sucked against said race so you're not at the economy you'd like... but you still win, because random players are, generally, shit in the late game since they don't know the races as well. Random is not great, and not fun. it does not add more openings and more strategies. It adds a block to properly using your strategies which you've made up for the real matchups. Which is why a lot of players, including IIRC some pros, who simply leave games vs randoms because it's not part of their traning "learning" to play a matchup with a suboptimal opening.
Random is a fourth race. You have to prepare different builds, just as you would for the other three races. The game displays it differently from the other three races on the load screen. Etc. In every way, you have to treat vR differently than you would any other race.
What you're trying to do is turn it from being a fourth race to a player just rolling dice on which race to pick. You're trying to remove an element from the game, just because you personally do not like it.
Who are you to decide what "properly using your strategies" and "real matchups" are?
BTW, is it wrong if all this QQ is making me want to start playing random?
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On August 20 2012 18:38 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 18:30 freakhill wrote:On August 20 2012 18:09 playa wrote:
If you're not playing random to gain an advantage, then you're saying you don't care what race you play. If you're not trying to gain an advantage, then I don't see why you can't choose random and have it pick your race on the spot and show it (to you and your opponent). Now, if you're playing random for an advantage and this game is supposed to strive for balance, then it makes next to no sense to allow an inherent advantage to be had when it's the easiest thing to balance: show both races. It really makes balance whining seem futile when obvious advantages are overlooked for w/e reasons. It seems hypocritical to me.
Blizzard has made it very clear that the question isn't whether something is imbalanced, but it's whether something meets their magical 55% in favor of one race imbalance. The question "can we easily make this game more balanced even if we don't think our magical number of having to give a shit has been met?" doesn't seem to be very important. Or, simply, the answer is why give a shit?
It's the principle more than the advantage that bothers me. I usually just leave versus random, depending on mood. Since there is an advantage for them, if you scout them on your first try and you're not bo fucked, you pretty much are going to win (inflated mmr). If it's pvz and you didn't take a bad 33% gamble on ffe, then you should prob lose. It's just bad practice, either way. And, until players are actually using random in tournaments, it's not really worth the practice. And, if they were, more prominent people might bitch about it and blizzard might have to magically start giving a shit.
I don't think playing random is that much of a disadvantage in that you have to be able to play all the races. If you have played both sides of a mu, then you will know your understanding of the matchup is pretty much better than anyone that doesn't play both sides of it. Call me crazy, but it's a pretty big advantage that should negate the disadvantages that come with having to practice every mu.
Keep it simple. Does something provide an advantage. Yes. Can it easily be fixed. Yes. Ok, stop wasting time.
You make no sense. "Keep it simple. Does something provide an advantage. Yes. Can it easily be fixed. Yes. Ok, stop wasting time." -> Marine provide an advantage? check! easily fixed? check! (just hafta remove them!) Ok, stop wasting time. It's your problem if you do not want to play the game, let random players, actually playing the game, out of it. Are you seriously going to make that parallel? Tell me why you think random doesn't provide an advantage or stfu. If you think tvz is imbalanced then it's your problem. Let the zerg players that enjoy their advantage take your points or find another game. Believe it or not, this game wasn't made by god. It was probably made by fallible people that couldn't even see it becoming the esport that it has become. Things aren't set in stone (shouldn't be at least). The question for blizzard isn't whether it's unfair. It's whether it's 55% unfair. If you don't see this as an advantage then you might be blind. If you can't answer the question of who has an advantage when one person knows their opponent's race and the other player doesn't know theirs, then maybe you should try playing another genre.
You really stepped into exactly his point: if you think PvR is imbalanced, then it's your problem.
Nobody's claiming that there isn't an advantage. We're saying that the advantage is part of the game. Just like regular race balance. Marines are a very good, very cost effective unit. They give Terrans an advantage. That doesn't mean that it's imbalanced, merely something you can use.
You can win vs. Random. You just have to stop playing the matchup like it's one of the other three races. If you treat it as a proper race, distinct from the rest, then you can develop builds that work well against the three races until you find out what they really have.
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On August 20 2012 20:34 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 17:53 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 17:48 boxman22 wrote:On August 20 2012 17:40 Tobberoth wrote:
Your arguments are irrelevant. It doesn't matter IF you can play a certain way vs all races, the point is that you don't WANT to because it doesn't improve your game. There's is depth in SC2 in how you have different styles for all matchups, and that grows from the start of the game. You can scout on 9, sure, but there's no guarantee you'll scout your opponent fast enough to decide on opening build on some maps, so you'll have to scout even earlier, which messes up your economy.
Basically, your whole argument is something along the lines of "Random is a fourth race, you have to play differently vs randoms or you're doing it wrong", when my point is there's no fucking need, just have the race show up on the loading screen. There's no con to that, and massive benefit. Hell, the opponent shouldn't even have to know you're playing random, he's just having another normal game.
If the information advantage is so extremely minor, like you guys are saying, what's the argument for NOT removing it, when it makes the game more boring for your opponents? Ah finally the complaints. If you're below grandmaster, then you have more than enough things to work on that "wasting your time" beating a cheese with a highly defensive standard opener is going to help you. Scouting on 9 is not to decide your opener but to scout the cheese that most people seem to expect. And yes, random should be treated like a 4th race. The massive benefit is, in essence, a 4TH RACE without creating one. Just because you don't like to have to think doesn't mean that Blizz should get rid of a portion of the game. The information advantage is minor but it exists. It doesn't make the game more boring because, apparently, you have literally no clue how to deal with random. Learning how to deal with random should be a goal of yours and then all of a sudden, more fun! More strategies to have to think of. More openings to deal with. More new situations to be in. Random is great and should be left alone. So basically, your whole argument comes down to ad hominem. I apparently suck against randoms (which I don't. You hold their pathetic cheese and crush them because they are terrible and play random to cheese using an unfair advantage) and I don't think, which is why I don't want a 4th race. Truth is, it's NOT a forth race, no matter how much you'd like to think so. It's a dice throw, coupled with an unfair information advatange which makes the game boring. Nothing else. As soon as you hold their pathetic cheese, or at least get to the midgame after using a suboptimal build, it's just a normal vT, vP or vZ game, only difference being that you're opening might have sucked against said race so you're not at the economy you'd like... but you still win, because random players are, generally, shit in the late game since they don't know the races as well. Random is not great, and not fun. it does not add more openings and more strategies. It adds a block to properly using your strategies which you've made up for the real matchups. Which is why a lot of players, including IIRC some pros, who simply leave games vs randoms because it's not part of their traning "learning" to play a matchup with a suboptimal opening. Random is a fourth race. You have to prepare different builds, just as you would for the other three races. The game displays it differently from the other three races on the load screen. Etc. In every way, you have to treat vR differently than you would any other race. What you're trying to do is turn it from being a fourth race to a player just rolling dice on which race to pick. You're trying to remove an element from the game, just because you personally do not like it. Who are you to decide what "properly using your strategies" and "real matchups" are? BTW, is it wrong if all this QQ is making me want to start playing random?
Your definition of a race is pretty damn open if "having it's own loading screen picture" makes it a race. Random is not a race. If I play a random and he gets Zerg, it's identical to me playing a normal zerg, I don't need to change anything past the opening. The ONLY thing which changes anything is the fact that I know he will probably cheese me AND I don't know which opening I can do optimally, so I have to do a safe unsatisfying opening. After that point, there's literally nothing different about it.
If you find this is enough to call a forth race, cool by me and lovely for blizzard, they could add a ton more races to this game so easily. How about tetoss? Basically, you have your own loading screen, and you spawn as either protoss or terran!!
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On August 20 2012 20:40 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 20:34 NicolBolas wrote:On August 20 2012 17:53 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 17:48 boxman22 wrote:On August 20 2012 17:40 Tobberoth wrote:
Your arguments are irrelevant. It doesn't matter IF you can play a certain way vs all races, the point is that you don't WANT to because it doesn't improve your game. There's is depth in SC2 in how you have different styles for all matchups, and that grows from the start of the game. You can scout on 9, sure, but there's no guarantee you'll scout your opponent fast enough to decide on opening build on some maps, so you'll have to scout even earlier, which messes up your economy.
Basically, your whole argument is something along the lines of "Random is a fourth race, you have to play differently vs randoms or you're doing it wrong", when my point is there's no fucking need, just have the race show up on the loading screen. There's no con to that, and massive benefit. Hell, the opponent shouldn't even have to know you're playing random, he's just having another normal game.
If the information advantage is so extremely minor, like you guys are saying, what's the argument for NOT removing it, when it makes the game more boring for your opponents? Ah finally the complaints. If you're below grandmaster, then you have more than enough things to work on that "wasting your time" beating a cheese with a highly defensive standard opener is going to help you. Scouting on 9 is not to decide your opener but to scout the cheese that most people seem to expect. And yes, random should be treated like a 4th race. The massive benefit is, in essence, a 4TH RACE without creating one. Just because you don't like to have to think doesn't mean that Blizz should get rid of a portion of the game. The information advantage is minor but it exists. It doesn't make the game more boring because, apparently, you have literally no clue how to deal with random. Learning how to deal with random should be a goal of yours and then all of a sudden, more fun! More strategies to have to think of. More openings to deal with. More new situations to be in. Random is great and should be left alone. So basically, your whole argument comes down to ad hominem. I apparently suck against randoms (which I don't. You hold their pathetic cheese and crush them because they are terrible and play random to cheese using an unfair advantage) and I don't think, which is why I don't want a 4th race. Truth is, it's NOT a forth race, no matter how much you'd like to think so. It's a dice throw, coupled with an unfair information advatange which makes the game boring. Nothing else. As soon as you hold their pathetic cheese, or at least get to the midgame after using a suboptimal build, it's just a normal vT, vP or vZ game, only difference being that you're opening might have sucked against said race so you're not at the economy you'd like... but you still win, because random players are, generally, shit in the late game since they don't know the races as well. Random is not great, and not fun. it does not add more openings and more strategies. It adds a block to properly using your strategies which you've made up for the real matchups. Which is why a lot of players, including IIRC some pros, who simply leave games vs randoms because it's not part of their traning "learning" to play a matchup with a suboptimal opening. Random is a fourth race. You have to prepare different builds, just as you would for the other three races. The game displays it differently from the other three races on the load screen. Etc. In every way, you have to treat vR differently than you would any other race. What you're trying to do is turn it from being a fourth race to a player just rolling dice on which race to pick. You're trying to remove an element from the game, just because you personally do not like it. Who are you to decide what "properly using your strategies" and "real matchups" are? BTW, is it wrong if all this QQ is making me want to start playing random? Your definition of a race is pretty damn open if "having it's own loading screen picture" makes it a race. Random is not a race. If I play a random and he gets Zergs, it's identical to me playing a zerg, I don't need to change everything. The ONLY thing which changes anything is the fact that I know he will probably cheese me AND I don't know which opening I can do optimally
Then it's not identical to you playing Zerg, is it?
If you have to do something differently vX then you do vY, then it's a different matchup.
On August 20 2012 20:40 Tobberoth wrote:
so I have to do a safe unsatisfying opening. After that point, there's literally nothing different about it.
Whether it is an unsafe opening is up you you and your skills. Whether it is unsatisfying is up to your opinion. And since the opening dictates the pace of the game, it will be quite different from a regular match.
Your problem is that you consider this to be negative. That one matchup being different from another is a bad thing. That's your right, but that doesn't mean you get to change the rules of the game.
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