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On August 20 2012 17:44 rEalGuapo wrote:
And yet many of the random players in this thread spit fire against this idea.
Now guess what sort of random players those are.
When I played random I loved messing with peoples heads. My favorite example is in TvP. Get gas and make a reactor on your barracks. The toss will immediately get really defensive and think 1-1-1 or 2/3 rax pressure/all-in. After you chase the scout and get 50 gas, pull SCVs from gas and get 2 CCs. Laugh when the toss tries to immortal all-in when they realize they're far behind or tries to play a macro game with fewer probes than you have scvs.
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On August 20 2012 17:48 boxman22 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 17:40 Tobberoth wrote:
Your arguments are irrelevant. It doesn't matter IF you can play a certain way vs all races, the point is that you don't WANT to because it doesn't improve your game. There's is depth in SC2 in how you have different styles for all matchups, and that grows from the start of the game. You can scout on 9, sure, but there's no guarantee you'll scout your opponent fast enough to decide on opening build on some maps, so you'll have to scout even earlier, which messes up your economy.
Basically, your whole argument is something along the lines of "Random is a fourth race, you have to play differently vs randoms or you're doing it wrong", when my point is there's no fucking need, just have the race show up on the loading screen. There's no con to that, and massive benefit. Hell, the opponent shouldn't even have to know you're playing random, he's just having another normal game.
If the information advantage is so extremely minor, like you guys are saying, what's the argument for NOT removing it, when it makes the game more boring for your opponents? Ah finally the complaints. If you're below grandmaster, then you have more than enough things to work on that "wasting your time" beating a cheese with a highly defensive standard opener is going to help you. Scouting on 9 is not to decide your opener but to scout the cheese that most people seem to expect. And yes, random should be treated like a 4th race. The massive benefit is, in essence, a 4TH RACE without creating one. Just because you don't like to have to think doesn't mean that Blizz should get rid of a portion of the game. The information advantage is minor but it exists. It doesn't make the game more boring because, apparently, you have literally no clue how to deal with random. Learning how to deal with random should be a goal of yours and then all of a sudden, more fun! More strategies to have to think of. More openings to deal with. More new situations to be in. Random is great and should be left alone.
So basically, your whole argument comes down to ad hominem. I apparently suck against randoms (which I don't. You hold their pathetic cheese and crush them because they are terrible and play random to cheese using an unfair advantage) and I don't think, which is why I don't want a 4th race.
Truth is, it's NOT a forth race, no matter how much you'd like to think so. It's a dice throw, coupled with an unfair information advatange which makes the game boring. Nothing else. As soon as you hold their pathetic cheese, or at least get to the midgame after using a suboptimal build, it's just a normal vT, vP or vZ game, only difference being that you're opening might have sucked against said race so you're not at the economy you'd like... but you still win, because random players are, generally, shit in the late game since they don't know the races as well.
Random is not great, and not fun. it does not add more openings and more strategies. It adds a block to properly using your strategies which you've made up for the real matchups. Which is why a lot of players, including IIRC some pros, who simply leave games vs randoms because it's not part of their traning "learning" to play a matchup with a suboptimal opening.
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Ah finally the complaints. If you're below grandmaster, then you have more than enough things to work on that "wasting your time" beating a cheese with a highly defensive standard opener is going to help you. Scouting on 9 is not to decide your opener but to scout the cheese that most people seem to expect.
To work on mechanics you need to know what to in the game and when to do it in advance, only that way you can work on mechanics without over-thinking strategy-wise and taking up too much brain capacity for that.
So I have to 9 Scout and from there improvise, making it a wasted game if I want to improve, in my eyes.
And yes, random should be treated like a 4th race. The massive benefit is, in essence, a 4TH RACE without creating one. Just because you don't like to have to think doesn't mean that Blizz should get rid of a portion of the game.
Random players make up less than 5%, that is just annoying to deal with since it can differ a lot how often you meet them.
Sometimes I meet 4-5 a day, now I haven't played against random for at least 100 games.
The information advantage is minor but it exists. It doesn't make the game more boring because, apparently, you have literally no clue how to deal with random. Learning how to deal with random should be a goal of yours and then all of a sudden, more fun! More strategies to have to think of. More openings to deal with. More new situations to be in. Random is great and should be left alone
The information advantage is probably bigger than you think since Starcraft is a game of information.
Learning how to deal with random will never be a goal of mine since I don't play against random often enough to influence my position in ladder.
Playing against 3 Races is enough for me and I don't see the harm in knowing the race I am up against, since it does make almost no difference for you (as you said) but it makes the match 100 times more fun for me.
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On August 20 2012 17:49 Gamegene wrote:
lol. let's be honest and state that no one enjoys playing random players.
i just had to endure playing a random player two times (6 pool and proxy 2 gate). it was a waste of time.
As a random player, I'm perfectly fine playing against other random players.
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On August 20 2012 17:55 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 17:49 Gamegene wrote:
lol. let's be honest and state that no one enjoys playing random players.
i just had to endure playing a random player two times (6 pool and proxy 2 gate). it was a waste of time. As a random player, I'm perfectly fine playing against other random players.
I'm sure a maphacker isn't mad if he plays against another maphacker, still it is no fun for the rest of us.
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3 times out 4 randoms attempt to cheese me, badly. Like, they can't even execute the cheese properly.
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On August 20 2012 17:53 Tobberoth wrote:
Which is why a lot of players, including IIRC some pros, who simply leave games vs randoms because it's not part of their traning "learning" to play a matchup with a suboptimal opening.
If you're a pro, then yes it makes perfect sense to leave vs randoms. There are no randoms good enough to be professional. The pros are playing for money and need to get better against only the races they play against. Are you anywhere near pro? I highly doubt it, therefore play against random, have some fun with it. If you crush random so hard, then why are you complaining so much? Take the free win whenever you play them (~8% globally)
May I ask what league you're in?
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On August 20 2012 17:03 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 16:51 NicolBolas wrote:On August 20 2012 16:43 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 16:39 boxman22 wrote:On August 20 2012 16:38 Tobberoth wrote:
It could be fixed so easily by Blizzard making it so that the race is shown on the load screen. That way players can enjoy having a random race, while their opponents aren't punished for their choices. I hate PvT, therefore I am punished any time you play terran. I have read many people don't like playing against terrans. Therefore blizzard should ban terran so their opponents aren't punished for their choices. There's a big difference disliking a certain matchup, and disliking your opponent having an unfair advantage, forcing you to play badly. You might suck against a terran, but at least you can improve your build and learn from every match, but there's nothing to learn from a game vs a random who wins because you had to do a shitty opening. There is no evidence that the random only wins "because you had to do a shitty opening." If that were true, you'd see a lot more random pro players. Just because you always lose to randoms doesn't mean that randoms have an insurmountable advantage. No one has said that randoms have an insurmountable advantage, nor that every game you lose against a random depends on their advantage, so your whole post is 100% irrelevant. Point is, they get an advatange, which: A) They don't deserve. B) Which makes the game more boring for their opponent, because it messes up the balance of the early game. Everyone bringing up performance of random players on ladder or in tournaments is completely missing the point. The advantage randoms get isn't there to make them viable in tournaments or on high level, because they aren't. If you pick random, you do so because you want to play random, not because you expect to do awesome with it, so the advantage has no place there. As a random player, if you feel you need this advantage, you're doing it wrong.
A) Some people might consider that by having to be proficient at 9 matchups, random players deserve the small information advantage they have at the beginning.
B) I don't find playing against random "more boring". If anything, it's more challenging. Don't make generalities of your own tastes.
Why not consider random like a 4th race against which you have to have specific builds too (probably safe builds) ? Also, I think if you're below Master/GrandMaster and you think you're loosing to random because of their advantage at the start, you're just wrong.
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People that whine about random, probably are just able to make just one build for each race and they don't scout.
I have no idea how a good player, that knows several builds, is used to scout, can adapt to many playstyles can complain about random.
And that is all about late scout, 'cos it send your probe/drone/scv and 9 supply it's just super standard game, 'cos you will be able to make any opening at the proper time.
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On August 20 2012 17:54 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +Ah finally the complaints. If you're below grandmaster, then you have more than enough things to work on that "wasting your time" beating a cheese with a highly defensive standard opener is going to help you. Scouting on 9 is not to decide your opener but to scout the cheese that most people seem to expect. To work on mechanics you need to know what to in the game and when to do it in advance, only that way you can work on mechanics without over-thinking strategy-wise and taking up too much brain capacity for that. So I have to 9 Scout and from there improvise, making it a wasted game if I want to improve, in my eyes.
Since when is learning to improvise not a skill in SC2. The people who hate randoms are all the people who want sc2 to be a game of who can do the 1 build I learned better than the 1 build you learned.
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On August 20 2012 17:57 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 17:55 GolemMadness wrote:On August 20 2012 17:49 Gamegene wrote:
lol. let's be honest and state that no one enjoys playing random players.
i just had to endure playing a random player two times (6 pool and proxy 2 gate). it was a waste of time. As a random player, I'm perfectly fine playing against other random players. I'm sure a maphacker isn't mad if he plays against another maphacker, still it is no fun for the rest of us.
When I pick a race, I still have no problem playing against random. If you can't figure out a way to deal with it, then that's your own problem.
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On August 20 2012 06:51 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 05:55 cydial wrote:On August 20 2012 04:36 Sepheren wrote:
Random is definitely an unfair advantage. You begin the game with information dissymmetry, the random player has more information than his opponent. That right there is justification for why it should not exist the way it does.
Random should be an option which relieves the player of having to choose his/her race, yet does not hide that information from the matched opponent.
I have no opinions on WHO plays random, or their personal playstyles. My issue is with the game design, which is flawed. Well put. This reason is exactly why random is banned from tournaments. You the random player start with an advantage over your opponent from the start. Actually I wanna rant more at this. Because the notion that random has an advantage at the start is apparently so overwhelming, that no one plays random competitively. Just some figures: Of all the major tournaments (that I care to list), 0 random players have won GSL. 0 random players have won MLG. 0 random players have won ESL. 0 random players have won IPL. 0 random players have won NASL. 0 random players have won Dreamhack. 0 random players have won HSC. Name a tournament I didn't list so I can say 0. Of all the players in grandmasters, NA has three. EU has one. KOR has zero. Of all the players in masters, 4.2% of NA play random. 3.1% of EU play random. 3.7% of KOR play random. Anything below and you're probably just much worse than your opponent. I love the way this thread was summarized: first world problems.
You know, most tourneys doesn't allow random... for a very obvious reason. The % of players who play random doesn't matter. If you play random and want it to be hidden because that keep your opponents on his toes, you are just a minority of players who isn't getting better because isn't getting real openings. Have fun with your circular logic tho.
I don't care btw, people who honestly just enjoy playing 3 races and getting better with them will just tell the race at the beginning like d.apollo does. ;P
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On August 20 2012 17:59 boxman22 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 17:53 Tobberoth wrote:
Which is why a lot of players, including IIRC some pros, who simply leave games vs randoms because it's not part of their traning "learning" to play a matchup with a suboptimal opening. If you're a pro, then yes it makes perfect sense to leave vs randoms. There are no randoms good enough to be professional. The pros are playing for money and need to get better against only the races they play against. Are you anywhere near pro? I highly doubt it, therefore play against random, have some fun with it. If you crush random so hard, then why are you complaining so much? Take the free win whenever you play them (~8% globally) May I ask what league you're in?
Sure, I'm high platinum. I'm certainly not a pro, and I don't leave against randoms, I'm just saying, randoms make up a very small percentage and you have to play differently against them. Even if it's a freewin, that doesn't make the game more rewarding. If you play on the ladder to get better, you will have the same problem as a pro, even though it certainly doesn't have the same impact.
Problem is, you seem to think it's fun to play against randoms, because it's different. I, and tons of other people, think it's boring for that very reason. If your random opponent plays seriously and just wants a random race, he wouldn't mind you knowing his race (which is why a lot of randoms tell their race immediately), so not having it shown in the loading screen makes no difference. Vs a player who desperately doesn't want you to know his race, it's in 90% of the cases because he somehow wants to abuse this advantage, which makes it boring for that reason. It's very very rare to run into a player who does not let you know his race, yet plays for the late-game, and those are the only games where your situation actually happens and random acts as a "fourth race"... but again, it's just you playing a normal matchup with a suboptimal opening.
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If you're not playing random to gain an advantage, then you're saying you don't care what race you play. If you're not trying to gain an advantage, then I don't see why you can't choose random and have it pick your race on the spot and show it (to you and your opponent). Now, if you're playing random for an advantage and this game is supposed to strive for balance, then it makes next to no sense to allow an inherent advantage to be had when it's the easiest thing to balance: show both races. It really makes balance whining seem futile when obvious advantages are overlooked for w/e reasons. It seems hypocritical to me.
Blizzard has made it very clear that the question isn't whether something is imbalanced, but it's whether something meets their magical 55% in favor of one race imbalance. The question "can we easily make this game more balanced even if we don't think our magical number of having to give a shit has been met?" doesn't seem to be very important. Or, simply, the answer is why give a shit?
It's the principle more than the advantage that bothers me. I usually just leave versus random, depending on mood. Since there is an advantage for them, if you scout them on your first try and you're not bo fucked, you pretty much are going to win (inflated mmr). If it's pvz and you didn't take a bad 33% gamble on ffe, then you should prob lose. It's just bad practice, either way. And, until players are actually using random in tournaments, it's not really worth the practice. And, if they were, more prominent people might bitch about it and blizzard might have to magically start giving a shit.
I don't think playing random is that much of a disadvantage in that you have to be able to play all the races. If you have played both sides of a mu, then you will know your understanding of the matchup is pretty much better than anyone that doesn't play both sides of it. Call me crazy, but it's a pretty big advantage that should negate the disadvantages that come with having to practice every mu.
Keep it simple. Does something provide an advantage. Yes. Can it easily be fixed. Yes. Ok, stop wasting time.
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I started playing random because of the way starcraft changed. I used to be a Mech player in BW. I love my mech. Oh how much I loved it. I was only C- so I got crused a billion times by my stupidly executed pushes.
But man, that feeling when your hardpush finally reaches his base and his army stumbles into your defense... An orgasm falls short to that. Of course it was hard, because to properly execute you had to think of so many things. Still, my heart was in it.
That being said, with sc2 being all about mobility with all races I have just not found my niche. They all feel so much the same. Sure you have Queens for zerg and the necessity to fland, Forcefields for toss and the kinda Ball-Style and Mules as Terran and so A-moving Stimtrain. But in the end they are not all that different.
But feel free to ask my race politely on ladder and I will always ask. Also, I don't cheese regularly. Every 1 in 20-30 games maybe, but not more.
Oh and just in general, when you play a random dude, stop flaming what an imba shit he is for playing the race he does, because he did not pick it. Think before you flame :D
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I'm a random player myself and tell my race, if I don't get bmed at the start (A lot of people tend to just insult me at the beginning of a game).
I like playing longer games and just cheese in about 1 game of 30 or so.
I even stopped to mix in a 6pool here and there, which I did when I was playing only zerg.
Do I feel like there is an advantage to random players?
Not really, you just have to scout them with your workers.
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Best part about being a random player: winning a game and having people say stuff like "you zerg players are all skilless scum"
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On August 20 2012 18:19 Prugelhugel wrote:
Do I feel like there is an advantage to random players?
Not really, you just have to scout them with your workers.
How is that not an advantage, especially in situations like toss vs zerg where you need to make a decision before you can scout?
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On August 20 2012 18:03 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 06:51 rd wrote:On August 20 2012 05:55 cydial wrote:On August 20 2012 04:36 Sepheren wrote:
Random is definitely an unfair advantage. You begin the game with information dissymmetry, the random player has more information than his opponent. That right there is justification for why it should not exist the way it does.
Random should be an option which relieves the player of having to choose his/her race, yet does not hide that information from the matched opponent.
I have no opinions on WHO plays random, or their personal playstyles. My issue is with the game design, which is flawed. Well put. This reason is exactly why random is banned from tournaments. You the random player start with an advantage over your opponent from the start. Actually I wanna rant more at this. Because the notion that random has an advantage at the start is apparently so overwhelming, that no one plays random competitively. Just some figures: Of all the major tournaments (that I care to list), 0 random players have won GSL. 0 random players have won MLG. 0 random players have won ESL. 0 random players have won IPL. 0 random players have won NASL. 0 random players have won Dreamhack. 0 random players have won HSC. Name a tournament I didn't list so I can say 0. Of all the players in grandmasters, NA has three. EU has one. KOR has zero. Of all the players in masters, 4.2% of NA play random. 3.1% of EU play random. 3.7% of KOR play random. Anything below and you're probably just much worse than your opponent. I love the way this thread was summarized: first world problems. You know, most tourneys doesn't allow random... for a very obvious reason.
Name them please
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Say ffe is the optimal build versus zerg. How early does toss have to scout to be able to still ffe? Unless you can make ffe viable in every matchup, then this has to be an advantage for you, unless you want to make a good argument for why players are making a mistake by not scouting this early versus non random opponents. When you choose random, why wouldn't you scout with, say, your first worker? I would say thank god people that don't see the advantage aren't working on balancing this game, but then again, with the lack of a fix... maybe they are. Again, random is too rare the higher you go, so I don't intend on facing it that often, but it's just so silly to me that they won't make it fair.
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