Random and its place on the ladder - Page 31

On August 20 2012 16:43 Tobberoth wrote:

There's a big difference disliking a certain matchup, and disliking your opponent having an unfair advantage, forcing you to play badly. You might suck against a terran, but at least you can improve your build and learn from every match, but there's nothing to learn from a game vs a random who wins because you had to do a shitty opening.

On August 20 2012 16:56 VyingsP wrote:
If there was at least one progamer who played Random, I would be such a fan.

On August 20 2012 16:54 Psyclon wrote:
Personally, i wish i was good enough to play random. I even dream of winning GSL with random Why? Because this shows you have mastered all races and all match-ups

On August 20 2012 16:51 NicolBolas wrote:


There is no evidence that the random only wins "because you had to do a shitty opening." If that were true, you'd see a lot more random pro players.

Just because you always lose to randoms doesn't mean that randoms have an insurmountable advantage.

On August 20 2012 16:59 boxman22 wrote:



Seriously it would be so cool if there were someone good enough to play random at a professional level

On August 20 2012 17:03 Tobberoth wrote:

No one has said that randoms have an insurmountable advantage, nor that every game you lose against a random depends on their advantage, so your whole post is 100% irrelevant.

Point is, they get an advatange, which:
A) They don't deserve.
B) Which makes the game more boring for their opponent, because it messes up the balance of the early game.

Everyone bringing up performance of random players on ladder or in tournaments is completely missing the point. The advantage randoms get isn't there to make them viable in tournaments or on high level, because they aren't. If you pick random, you do so because you want to play random, not because you expect to do awesome with it, so the advantage has no place there. As a random player, if you feel you need this advantage, you're doing it wrong.

On August 20 2012 17:03 Tobberoth wrote:

No one has said that randoms have an insurmountable advantage, nor that every game you lose against a random depends on their advantage, so your whole post is 100% irrelevant.

Point is, they get an advatange, which:
A) They don't deserve.
B) Which makes the game more boring for their opponent, because it messes up the balance of the early game.

Everyone bringing up performance of random players on ladder or in tournaments is completely missing the point. The advantage randoms get isn't there to make them viable in tournaments or on high level, because they aren't. If you pick random, you do so because you want to play random, not because you expect to do awesome with it, so the advantage has no place there. As a random player, if you feel you need this advantage, you're doing it wrong.

On August 20 2012 17:18 boxman22 wrote:


You still haven't given me a "shitty opening" that you "couldn't learn from". Give me one example.

On August 20 2012 17:17 VyingsP wrote:
Seriously, this thread has gone from "I hate random and I would love to know if I am the only one" into "I am terrible at dealing with cheese even though I know it is coming". Should be closed imho.

On August 20 2012 17:27 Tobberoth wrote:

There's examples in the OP, did you forget to read it? Obviously, it doesn't stop at that. Point being that most players, even on gold level, are good enough where they have specific builds for each matchup. As a zerg, it could be hatch first vs terran, 14pool16hatch vs toss and 14gas/14pool vs zerg. Which one do you pick vs a random? Well, you'll pick 14gas/14pool unless you want to risk getting countered, and now you suddenly threw off your game vs terran/protoss. Doesn't mean you'll lose, just means "I'll never play like this vs a real terran or protoss, so this was a waste of time". Especially since the odds of you meeting a random player in a tournament setting is so low.

On August 19 2012 21:53 Capped wrote:
Random players i experience are just cheesey. I just 4 gate them as protoss nowadays, as it works for all 3 races and crushes whatever shit they're trying to pull.

I played terran as plat and protoss atm as silver / gold and just experience cheese.

The way to get around random players is to just to standard builds that work as openers against all 3 races. For protoss something like a 1 gate FE or 4 gate works well. You want to be able to defend against cheesey crap and probably send out a scout earlier

Chances are random players are either cheesers, or worse with that race and matchup then you are. You have the advantage.

On August 20 2012 17:34 boxman22 wrote:


14 pool 16 hatch works vs all 3 races and doesn't put you particularly behind in any. 14 gas 14 pool is generally a really aggressive build vs zerg, if you can't do a defensive one then that's your own problem. If you combine that with a 9/10/11/12 scout you should be able to find an early pool or proxy rax/gates before your hatch finishes. From then on out you're playing a slightly defensive game against someone who plays that matchup 1/3 of the time you do. If you can't win, then your problem is not vs random but just your play itself.

If they play as random, they are most likely choosing it to cheese, from personal experience. You have no idea whats coming from any of the three races, so you're extremely limited in what you can do build wise.

Some people just choose random because they enjoy all three races. That's legit.

Therefore... I think it would be best if random showed your race on the load screen. It would be fairer for both players, plus those who actually want to play a random race still can, they lose nothing.

On August 20 2012 17:40 Tobberoth wrote:
Your arguments are irrelevant. It doesn't matter IF you can play a certain way vs all races, the point is that you don't WANT to because it doesn't improve your game. There's is depth in SC2 in how you have different styles for all matchups, and that grows from the start of the game. You can scout on 9, sure, but there's no guarantee you'll scout your opponent fast enough to decide on opening build on some maps, so you'll have to scout even earlier, which messes up your economy.

Basically, your whole argument is something along the lines of "Random is a fourth race, you have to play differently vs randoms or you're doing it wrong", when my point is there's no fucking need, just have the race show up on the loading screen. There's no con to that, and massive benefit. Hell, the opponent shouldn't even have to know you're playing random, he's just having another normal game.

If the information advantage is so extremely minor, like you guys are saying, what's the argument for NOT removing it, when it makes the game more boring for your opponents?