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On August 20 2012 16:43 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 16:39 boxman22 wrote:On August 20 2012 16:38 Tobberoth wrote:
It could be fixed so easily by Blizzard making it so that the race is shown on the load screen. That way players can enjoy having a random race, while their opponents aren't punished for their choices. I hate PvT, therefore I am punished any time you play terran. I have read many people don't like playing against terrans. Therefore blizzard should ban terran so their opponents aren't punished for their choices. There's a big difference disliking a certain matchup, and disliking your opponent having an unfair advantage, forcing you to play badly. You might suck against a terran, but at least you can improve your build and learn from every match, but there's nothing to learn from a game vs a random who wins because you had to do a shitty opening.
There is no evidence that the random only wins "because you had to do a shitty opening." If that were true, you'd see a lot more random pro players.
Just because you always lose to randoms doesn't mean that randoms have an insurmountable advantage.
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I can see the argument against Random for ladder purposes. However, that sort of goes out the window when you're in a tournament setting. As previously mentioned, a majority of tournaments do not prohibit the choice of Random for your race. When faced with this, what are you really going to do? Ask your opponent for his or her race? The goal, now, is to win the game by whatever methods you can employ.
If I can take advantage of an information advantage in a tournament setting, I'm definitely going to do it.
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Personally, i wish i was good enough to play random. I even dream of winning GSL with random  Why? Because this shows you have mastered all races and all match-ups, duh. What about the random players who regularly/always cheese on ladder, hoping that the unknown factor will help them to get an easy win? Pathetic. I've lost games to such "strategic masterminds", i just smile and queue the next game.
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you can switch to random too.
I am master in random on NA/ grandmaster in terran on SEA.
as a matter of fact, FFE gives you an unfair advantage when against zerg, but when you encounter a random player in ladder, you would need to consider what to do because race info is not clear.
you need to wall off against early zergling run-by, but if you do so it will give you a disadvantage in a PvP etc etc.
Anyway, you can try random, you will feel the pain when terran is picked.
Also, random players accomplish least in all the tournaments.
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Dat QQ thread... Random is so OP. Random shouldn't be able to play in tournament. Why can't I see the race of my random opponent. I can't FFE. Random people cheese more. Life is so unfair.
Everyone should just remember that there are four races, and the game was designed so that one of the four would be the strongest.
You play the weakest.
If there was at least one progamer who played Random, I would be such a fan.
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On August 20 2012 16:56 VyingsP wrote:
If there was at least one progamer who played Random, I would be such a fan.
On August 20 2012 16:54 Psyclon wrote:
Personally, i wish i was good enough to play random. I even dream of winning GSL with random Why? Because this shows you have mastered all races and all match-ups
Seriously it would be so cool if there were someone good enough to play random at a professional level
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On August 20 2012 16:51 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 16:43 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 16:39 boxman22 wrote:On August 20 2012 16:38 Tobberoth wrote:
It could be fixed so easily by Blizzard making it so that the race is shown on the load screen. That way players can enjoy having a random race, while their opponents aren't punished for their choices. I hate PvT, therefore I am punished any time you play terran. I have read many people don't like playing against terrans. Therefore blizzard should ban terran so their opponents aren't punished for their choices. There's a big difference disliking a certain matchup, and disliking your opponent having an unfair advantage, forcing you to play badly. You might suck against a terran, but at least you can improve your build and learn from every match, but there's nothing to learn from a game vs a random who wins because you had to do a shitty opening. There is no evidence that the random only wins "because you had to do a shitty opening." If that were true, you'd see a lot more random pro players. Just because you always lose to randoms doesn't mean that randoms have an insurmountable advantage.
No one has said that randoms have an insurmountable advantage, nor that every game you lose against a random depends on their advantage, so your whole post is 100% irrelevant.
Point is, they get an advatange, which:
A) They don't deserve.
B) Which makes the game more boring for their opponent, because it messes up the balance of the early game.
Everyone bringing up performance of random players on ladder or in tournaments is completely missing the point. The advantage randoms get isn't there to make them viable in tournaments or on high level, because they aren't. If you pick random, you do so because you want to play random, not because you expect to do awesome with it, so the advantage has no place there. As a random player, if you feel you need this advantage, you're doing it wrong.
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On August 20 2012 16:59 boxman22 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 16:56 VyingsP wrote:
If there was at least one progamer who played Random, I would be such a fan. Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 16:54 Psyclon wrote:
Personally, i wish i was good enough to play random. I even dream of winning GSL with random Why? Because this shows you have mastered all races and all match-ups Seriously it would be so cool if there were someone good enough to play random at a professional level
Didn't GuineaPig play random in gsl team league all the time.
If the load screen shows both races, should be standard, any advantage of not knowing the race goes away.
When I play random I would love to know the race before hand even if its only a few seconds, have my build ready, my scout paterns, know what to look for cheese wise and ovi placements if zerg, I know its only a new seconds but I think it would be great.
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On August 20 2012 17:03 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 16:51 NicolBolas wrote:On August 20 2012 16:43 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 16:39 boxman22 wrote:On August 20 2012 16:38 Tobberoth wrote:
It could be fixed so easily by Blizzard making it so that the race is shown on the load screen. That way players can enjoy having a random race, while their opponents aren't punished for their choices. I hate PvT, therefore I am punished any time you play terran. I have read many people don't like playing against terrans. Therefore blizzard should ban terran so their opponents aren't punished for their choices. There's a big difference disliking a certain matchup, and disliking your opponent having an unfair advantage, forcing you to play badly. You might suck against a terran, but at least you can improve your build and learn from every match, but there's nothing to learn from a game vs a random who wins because you had to do a shitty opening. There is no evidence that the random only wins "because you had to do a shitty opening." If that were true, you'd see a lot more random pro players. Just because you always lose to randoms doesn't mean that randoms have an insurmountable advantage. No one has said that randoms have an insurmountable advantage, nor that every game you lose against a random depends on their advantage, so your whole post is 100% irrelevant. Point is, they get an advatange, which: A) They don't deserve. B) Which makes the game more boring for their opponent, because it messes up the balance of the early game. Everyone bringing up performance of random players on ladder or in tournaments is completely missing the point. The advantage randoms get isn't there to make them viable in tournaments or on high level, because they aren't. If you pick random, you do so because you want to play random, not because you expect to do awesome with it, so the advantage has no place there. As a random player, if you feel you need this advantage, you're doing it wrong.
Your post reminds me of a match, I believe it was a TvZ but I can't recall who played in it, and the Terran ultimately managed to get a draw by lifting his buildings. There were people who reacted like it was a scandal, some kind of game abuse, an unfair mechanic, a bad design...
No, there a simply people who play this game to win. You think you know why people play random, and according to you, it is not in order to win the game. Good for you. Now, people who actually play random might have a slightly different opinion.
Seriously, this thread has gone from "I hate random and I would love to know if I am the only one" into "I am terrible at dealing with cheese even though I know it is coming". Should be closed imho.
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On August 20 2012 17:03 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 16:51 NicolBolas wrote:On August 20 2012 16:43 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 16:39 boxman22 wrote:On August 20 2012 16:38 Tobberoth wrote:
It could be fixed so easily by Blizzard making it so that the race is shown on the load screen. That way players can enjoy having a random race, while their opponents aren't punished for their choices. I hate PvT, therefore I am punished any time you play terran. I have read many people don't like playing against terrans. Therefore blizzard should ban terran so their opponents aren't punished for their choices. There's a big difference disliking a certain matchup, and disliking your opponent having an unfair advantage, forcing you to play badly. You might suck against a terran, but at least you can improve your build and learn from every match, but there's nothing to learn from a game vs a random who wins because you had to do a shitty opening. There is no evidence that the random only wins "because you had to do a shitty opening." If that were true, you'd see a lot more random pro players. Just because you always lose to randoms doesn't mean that randoms have an insurmountable advantage. No one has said that randoms have an insurmountable advantage, nor that every game you lose against a random depends on their advantage, so your whole post is 100% irrelevant. Point is, they get an advatange, which: A) They don't deserve. B) Which makes the game more boring for their opponent, because it messes up the balance of the early game. Everyone bringing up performance of random players on ladder or in tournaments is completely missing the point. The advantage randoms get isn't there to make them viable in tournaments or on high level, because they aren't. If you pick random, you do so because you want to play random, not because you expect to do awesome with it, so the advantage has no place there. As a random player, if you feel you need this advantage, you're doing it wrong.
You still haven't given me a "shitty opening" that you "couldn't learn from". Give me one example.
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I don't have a problem with random players. All that happens is that I have to send out a drone scout earlier so I can figure out whether I should hatch first or pool first. The disadvantage they get is that they can't always have their strongest race. I don't need to know what race they are before the game starts.
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On August 20 2012 17:18 boxman22 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 17:03 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 16:51 NicolBolas wrote:On August 20 2012 16:43 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 16:39 boxman22 wrote:On August 20 2012 16:38 Tobberoth wrote:
It could be fixed so easily by Blizzard making it so that the race is shown on the load screen. That way players can enjoy having a random race, while their opponents aren't punished for their choices. I hate PvT, therefore I am punished any time you play terran. I have read many people don't like playing against terrans. Therefore blizzard should ban terran so their opponents aren't punished for their choices. There's a big difference disliking a certain matchup, and disliking your opponent having an unfair advantage, forcing you to play badly. You might suck against a terran, but at least you can improve your build and learn from every match, but there's nothing to learn from a game vs a random who wins because you had to do a shitty opening. There is no evidence that the random only wins "because you had to do a shitty opening." If that were true, you'd see a lot more random pro players. Just because you always lose to randoms doesn't mean that randoms have an insurmountable advantage. No one has said that randoms have an insurmountable advantage, nor that every game you lose against a random depends on their advantage, so your whole post is 100% irrelevant. Point is, they get an advatange, which: A) They don't deserve. B) Which makes the game more boring for their opponent, because it messes up the balance of the early game. Everyone bringing up performance of random players on ladder or in tournaments is completely missing the point. The advantage randoms get isn't there to make them viable in tournaments or on high level, because they aren't. If you pick random, you do so because you want to play random, not because you expect to do awesome with it, so the advantage has no place there. As a random player, if you feel you need this advantage, you're doing it wrong. You still haven't given me a "shitty opening" that you "couldn't learn from". Give me one example.
There's examples in the OP, did you forget to read it? Obviously, it doesn't stop at that. Point being that most players, even on gold level, are good enough where they have specific builds for each matchup. As a zerg, it could be hatch first vs terran, 14pool16hatch vs toss and 14gas/14pool vs zerg. Which one do you pick vs a random? Well, you'll pick 14gas/14pool unless you want to risk getting countered, and now you suddenly threw off your game vs terran/protoss. Doesn't mean you'll lose, just means "I'll never play like this vs a real terran or protoss, so this was a waste of time". Especially since the odds of you meeting a random player in a tournament setting is so low.
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On August 20 2012 17:17 VyingsP wrote:
Seriously, this thread has gone from "I hate random and I would love to know if I am the only one" into "I am terrible at dealing with cheese even though I know it is coming". Should be closed imho.
Then you're paying attention to the wrong posts.
When I play random, I do not want to be forced to play 2010 ZvP instead of getting to try newer builds. I do not want to get cheesed over and over by people who hate playing against Random, not because I lose, but because I don't get to play out standard games, when getting to play out a 'full' game as the other races is the whole reason I play Random. And these exact arguments go the other way from the vR side, because a matchup with a Random player, lacking in information, is far more likely to be cheese from someone due to that fact.
And all of that is unnecessary.
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On August 20 2012 17:27 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 17:18 boxman22 wrote:
You still haven't given me a "shitty opening" that you "couldn't learn from". Give me one example.
There's examples in the OP, did you forget to read it? Obviously, it doesn't stop at that. Point being that most players, even on gold level, are good enough where they have specific builds for each matchup. As a zerg, it could be hatch first vs terran, 14pool16hatch vs toss and 14gas/14pool vs zerg. Which one do you pick vs a random? Well, you'll pick 14gas/14pool unless you want to risk getting countered, and now you suddenly threw off your game vs terran/protoss. Doesn't mean you'll lose, just means "I'll never play like this vs a real terran or protoss, so this was a waste of time". Especially since the odds of you meeting a random player in a tournament setting is so low.
14 pool 16 hatch works vs all 3 races and doesn't put you particularly behind in any. 14 gas 14 pool is generally a really aggressive build vs zerg, if you can't do a defensive one then that's your own problem. If you combine that with a 9/10/11/12 scout you should be able to find an early pool or proxy rax/gates before your hatch finishes. From then on out you're playing a slightly defensive game against someone who plays that matchup 1/3 of the time you do. If you can't win, then your problem is not vs random but just your play itself.
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On August 19 2012 21:53 Capped wrote:
Random players i experience are just cheesey. I just 4 gate them as protoss nowadays, as it works for all 3 races and crushes whatever shit they're trying to pull.
I played terran as plat and protoss atm as silver / gold and just experience cheese.
The way to get around random players is to just to standard builds that work as openers against all 3 races. For protoss something like a 1 gate FE or 4 gate works well. You want to be able to defend against cheesey crap and probably send out a scout earlier
Chances are random players are either cheesers, or worse with that race and matchup then you are. You have the advantage.
many have this.. or atleast had this.. a while ago i was high diamond as a random.. never told my race, but i didnt cheese either.
instead i faced a myriad of cheese/ 4gates from protoss players 
it got to the point where i expected 4 gates and simply countered it for easy wins
and for those who "demand" that randoms should tell their race at the start... grow some balls... in most cases you would win late game anyways.. that or you need more training
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If they play as random, they are most likely choosing it to cheese, from personal experience. You have no idea whats coming from any of the three races, so you're extremely limited in what you can do build wise.
Some people just choose random because they enjoy all three races. That's legit.
Therefore... I think it would be best if random showed your race on the load screen. It would be fairer for both players, plus those who actually want to play a random race still can, they lose nothing.
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On August 20 2012 17:34 boxman22 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 17:27 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 17:18 boxman22 wrote:
You still haven't given me a "shitty opening" that you "couldn't learn from". Give me one example.
There's examples in the OP, did you forget to read it? Obviously, it doesn't stop at that. Point being that most players, even on gold level, are good enough where they have specific builds for each matchup. As a zerg, it could be hatch first vs terran, 14pool16hatch vs toss and 14gas/14pool vs zerg. Which one do you pick vs a random? Well, you'll pick 14gas/14pool unless you want to risk getting countered, and now you suddenly threw off your game vs terran/protoss. Doesn't mean you'll lose, just means "I'll never play like this vs a real terran or protoss, so this was a waste of time". Especially since the odds of you meeting a random player in a tournament setting is so low. 14 pool 16 hatch works vs all 3 races and doesn't put you particularly behind in any. 14 gas 14 pool is generally a really aggressive build vs zerg, if you can't do a defensive one then that's your own problem. If you combine that with a 9/10/11/12 scout you should be able to find an early pool or proxy rax/gates before your hatch finishes. From then on out you're playing a slightly defensive game against someone who plays that matchup 1/3 of the time you do. If you can't win, then your problem is not vs random but just your play itself.
Your arguments are irrelevant. It doesn't matter IF you can play a certain way vs all races, the point is that you don't WANT to because it doesn't improve your game. There's is depth in SC2 in how you have different styles for all matchups, and that grows from the start of the game. You can scout on 9, sure, but there's no guarantee you'll scout your opponent fast enough to decide on opening build on some maps, so you'll have to scout even earlier, which messes up your economy. In the case of protoss, it doesn't matter how fast you scout, there's no way you can scout your opponent fast enough to put down an FFE pylon unless you send it immediately as the game starts and find your opponent on your first try.
Basically, your whole argument is something along the lines of "Random is a fourth race, you have to play differently vs randoms or you're doing it wrong", when my point is there's no fucking need, just have the race show up on the loading screen. There's no con to that, and massive benefit. Hell, the opponent shouldn't even have to know you're playing random, he's just having another normal game.
If the information advantage is so extremely minor, like you guys are saying, what's the argument for NOT removing it, when it makes the game more boring for your opponents?
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If they play as random, they are most likely choosing it to cheese, from personal experience. You have no idea whats coming from any of the three races, so you're extremely limited in what you can do build wise.
That is exactly why I think playing against random right now is no fun at all
Some people just choose random because they enjoy all three races. That's legit.
Therefore... I think it would be best if random showed your race on the load screen. It would be fairer for both players, plus those who actually want to play a random race still can, they lose nothing.
They would actually get to learn the matchups the way they are played instead of some twisted version of it with an opening that is somewhat safe to 100 different cheeses.
And yet many of the random players in this thread spit fire against this idea.
Now guess what sort of random players those are.
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On August 20 2012 17:40 Tobberoth wrote:
Your arguments are irrelevant. It doesn't matter IF you can play a certain way vs all races, the point is that you don't WANT to because it doesn't improve your game. There's is depth in SC2 in how you have different styles for all matchups, and that grows from the start of the game. You can scout on 9, sure, but there's no guarantee you'll scout your opponent fast enough to decide on opening build on some maps, so you'll have to scout even earlier, which messes up your economy.
Basically, your whole argument is something along the lines of "Random is a fourth race, you have to play differently vs randoms or you're doing it wrong", when my point is there's no fucking need, just have the race show up on the loading screen. There's no con to that, and massive benefit. Hell, the opponent shouldn't even have to know you're playing random, he's just having another normal game.
If the information advantage is so extremely minor, like you guys are saying, what's the argument for NOT removing it, when it makes the game more boring for your opponents?
Ah finally the complaints. If you're below grandmaster, then you have more than enough things to work on that "wasting your time" beating a cheese with a highly defensive standard opener is going to help you. Scouting on 9 is not to decide your opener but to scout the cheese that most people seem to expect.
And yes, random should be treated like a 4th race. The massive benefit is, in essence, a 4TH RACE without creating one. Just because you don't like to have to think doesn't mean that Blizz should get rid of a portion of the game.
The information advantage is minor but it exists. It doesn't make the game more boring because, apparently, you have literally no clue how to deal with random. Learning how to deal with random should be a goal of yours and then all of a sudden, more fun! More strategies to have to think of. More openings to deal with. More new situations to be in. Random is great and should be left alone.
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lol. let's be honest and state that no one enjoys playing random players.
i just had to endure playing a random player two times (6 pool and proxy 2 gate). it was a waste of time.
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EPT
