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Each race should have a philosophy.
Terran = Slow, methodological, strength when combined but weak if you don't have the right composition
Zerg = Cheap, fast, swarmy
Protoss = Expensive, powerful units
I don't want a BW clone, but the success of BW race design and balance came from following these patterns. People played the race most suited to their style.
Now the Idiot in Chief wants every race to be everything at once. Look at him talk about how this race can't do this so we'll add this and this race has problems doing this other thing so we'll add this. What a complete idiot. The new units and their abilities perfectly illustrate this point.
I'm afraid the only way to save SC2 from the baffoon is to get rid of Dustin Beaver and put our hopes in Legacy of the Void.
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Ok. Read the whole thread. Simple question- what in the hell is Protoss supposed to build against Battle Hellions (BH), Warhounds (WH) and Vikings as a composition?
Let's review all of Protoss combat capable units and list things that can kill them in that.
Zealot - BH
Stalker - WH
Sentry - anything
Dark Templar - scan and anything
High Templar - anything. Might do good damage but mech beefier than bio
Archon - usable but unlikely to be super effective. Couple ghosts would shut down hardcore
Immortal - WH (missiles...)
Colossus - Viking and possibly WH
Phoenix - Vikings trade well and are reactored
Void ray - Viking
Tempest - Viking
So what's the plan? Mass archon and hope he forgets he can build ghosts? Pray you get enough storms off to kill mech (stronger than bio) and again forgets about ghosts? That game was obviously poor but even on paper there doesn't seem to be any gaps in that armour...it's even fairly mobile!
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
Terran = Slow, methodological, strength when combined but weak if you don't have the right composition
Warhounds fits to that idea. They're totally bad if alone.
Widow Mines are tactical unit aka "methodological"
Zerg = Cheap, fast, swarmy
Cheap - lings roaches
Fast - speedlings, speeroaches, speedralisks, Creep Worm
Swarmy - Swarm Host (mass locusts with lings can be viable too), Brood lords, zerglings, mass-roach
Ok. Read the whole thread. Simple question- what in the hell is Protoss supposed to build against Battle Hellions (BH), Warhounds (WH) and Vikings as a composition?
Let's review all of Protoss combat capable units and list things that can kill them in that.
Zealot - BH
Stalker - WH
Sentry - anything
Dark Templar - scan and anything
High Templar - anything. Might do good damage but mech beefier than bio
Archon - usable but unlikely to be super effective. Couple ghosts would shut down hardcore
Immortal - WH (missiles...)
Colossus - Viking and possibly WH
Phoenix - Vikings trade well and are reactored
Void ray - Viking
Tempest - Viking
So what's the plan? Mass archon and hope he forgets he can build ghosts? Pray you get enough storms off to kill mech (stronger than bio) and again forgets about ghosts? That game was obviously poor but even on paper there doesn't seem to be any gaps in that armour...it's even fairly mobile!
Immortals > Warhounds
Also mass-air (void rays and phoenixes) can be very strong against terran. Mech-styled gameplay means that terran have only vikings, because Thors are slow, easy to feedback, but they're only counter to mass-phoenix (sounds crazy) and maybe void rays (splash).
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Can't wait for the first HotS tournament with all the pros exploiting those new units. Can't wait for the whine too :D
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On August 16 2012 05:29 hpTheGreat wrote:
Very disappointing.
Also, for the people that say that all zerg has to do is 1a. Well it kind of makes sense.
Zerg has the most units and they are all very squishy and easy to kill, save ultras. It wouldnt' make sense if you could keep them alive for too long because there are so many of them. This was the theme even in BW. Lots of cheap, easily crushed units that overwhelm their opponent based on numbers alone.
The "skill" in zerg comes from managing multiple bases, map control, and engaging at the right moment in a favorable location.
The lurker, mutalisk and defiler were all about making small groups of units incredibly potent... (mainly in zvt). ZvZ is really a low economic game. It's all about micro.
ZvP is quite the contrary (although you still need shit ton of micro to move 40+ hydralisks quickly and snipe high templars with mutalisks) but that's what's amazing about bw. Zerg could play with massive numbers and/or zerg could be really cost-efficient with small numbers. Zerg units had potential in power and potential in micro which is not nearly as much the case in sc2. Being cost efficient in sc2 is pretty much impossible (or possible but in a complete non skillful way, infestors lol). Broodlord infestor in a straight up fight is cost efficient, but you can't defend any of your bases properly.
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The majority of this thread is pants on head level. Do you not remember following the same cycle for every game? When WoL was coming out half the threads were filled with people saying how terrible it is. In less than a year, all the imbeciles complaining about what an awful terrible game D3 is will be gone. Now you'll go on and on about how terrible HotS is and puppy surprise the game won't be a horrific disaster. Partly because Blizzard will react and adjust, partly because you just don't know what you're talking about, but mostly because you just call everything terrible.
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On August 16 2012 07:46 Jerubaal wrote:
The majority of this thread is pants on head level. Do you not remember following the same cycle for every game? When WoL was coming out half the threads were filled with people saying how terrible it is. In less than a year, all the imbeciles complaining about what an awful terrible game D3 is will be gone. Now you'll go on and on about how terrible HotS is and puppy surprise the game won't be a horrific disaster. Partly because Blizzard will react and adjust, partly because you just don't know what you're talking about, but mostly because you just call everything terrible.
hey...i still think wol isn't good (enough to replace bw). i actually loved it at first but then no.
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On August 16 2012 07:30 Lightspeaker wrote:
Ok. Read the whole thread. Simple question- what in the hell is Protoss supposed to build against Battle Hellions (BH), Warhounds (WH) and Vikings as a composition?
Let's review all of Protoss combat capable units and list things that can kill them in that.
Zealot - BH
Stalker - WH
Sentry - anything
Dark Templar - scan and anything
High Templar - anything. Might do good damage but mech beefier than bio
Archon - usable but unlikely to be super effective. Couple ghosts would shut down hardcore
Immortal - WH (missiles...)
Colossus - Viking and possibly WH
Phoenix - Vikings trade well and are reactored
Void ray - Viking
Tempest - Viking
So what's the plan? Mass archon and hope he forgets he can build ghosts? Pray you get enough storms off to kill mech (stronger than bio) and again forgets about ghosts? That game was obviously poor but even on paper there doesn't seem to be any gaps in that armour...it's even fairly mobile!
How is this different than WOL? What were you hoping for? A huge gap in the Terran's composition that Protoss can exploit without answer?
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Warhounds looks retarded. please just use the goliath model
WidowMines are ridiculous. 75/25 and kills most more expensive enemy unit. only burrow them and wait
Oracle kinda boring. Tempest too expensive
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On August 16 2012 08:01 Le BucheRON wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 07:30 Lightspeaker wrote:
Ok. Read the whole thread. Simple question- what in the hell is Protoss supposed to build against Battle Hellions (BH), Warhounds (WH) and Vikings as a composition?
Let's review all of Protoss combat capable units and list things that can kill them in that.
Zealot - BH
Stalker - WH
Sentry - anything
Dark Templar - scan and anything
High Templar - anything. Might do good damage but mech beefier than bio
Archon - usable but unlikely to be super effective. Couple ghosts would shut down hardcore
Immortal - WH (missiles...)
Colossus - Viking and possibly WH
Phoenix - Vikings trade well and are reactored
Void ray - Viking
Tempest - Viking
So what's the plan? Mass archon and hope he forgets he can build ghosts? Pray you get enough storms off to kill mech (stronger than bio) and again forgets about ghosts? That game was obviously poor but even on paper there doesn't seem to be any gaps in that armour...it's even fairly mobile! How is this different than WOL? What were you hoping for? A huge gap in the Terran's composition that Protoss can exploit without answer?
Well he's saying that this one composition basically counters everything protoss can do, which I think we could agree would be pretty boring, no? I don't see how this is the case in WOL.
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With the battle hellion mech could work on WoL. The Warhound will be nerfed as hell (I hope he disappears)
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On August 16 2012 08:11 Ameisenmann wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 08:01 Le BucheRON wrote:On August 16 2012 07:30 Lightspeaker wrote:
Ok. Read the whole thread. Simple question- what in the hell is Protoss supposed to build against Battle Hellions (BH), Warhounds (WH) and Vikings as a composition?
Let's review all of Protoss combat capable units and list things that can kill them in that.
Zealot - BH
Stalker - WH
Sentry - anything
Dark Templar - scan and anything
High Templar - anything. Might do good damage but mech beefier than bio
Archon - usable but unlikely to be super effective. Couple ghosts would shut down hardcore
Immortal - WH (missiles...)
Colossus - Viking and possibly WH
Phoenix - Vikings trade well and are reactored
Void ray - Viking
Tempest - Viking
So what's the plan? Mass archon and hope he forgets he can build ghosts? Pray you get enough storms off to kill mech (stronger than bio) and again forgets about ghosts? That game was obviously poor but even on paper there doesn't seem to be any gaps in that armour...it's even fairly mobile! How is this different than WOL? What were you hoping for? A huge gap in the Terran's composition that Protoss can exploit without answer? Well he's saying that this one composition basically counters everything protoss can do, which I think we could agree would be pretty boring, no? I don't see how this is the case in WOL.
Yep. The thing about WoL is that TvP is less about countering compositions by a-moving other compositions into them and more about engagement/positioning/timing/micro. Immortals, Void Rays, Chargelots, and maybe Tempests seem like the only things that will be good against Terran mech, and all of those units are straight up a-move units.
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On August 16 2012 08:13 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 08:11 Ameisenmann wrote:On August 16 2012 08:01 Le BucheRON wrote:On August 16 2012 07:30 Lightspeaker wrote:
Ok. Read the whole thread. Simple question- what in the hell is Protoss supposed to build against Battle Hellions (BH), Warhounds (WH) and Vikings as a composition?
Let's review all of Protoss combat capable units and list things that can kill them in that.
Zealot - BH
Stalker - WH
Sentry - anything
Dark Templar - scan and anything
High Templar - anything. Might do good damage but mech beefier than bio
Archon - usable but unlikely to be super effective. Couple ghosts would shut down hardcore
Immortal - WH (missiles...)
Colossus - Viking and possibly WH
Phoenix - Vikings trade well and are reactored
Void ray - Viking
Tempest - Viking
So what's the plan? Mass archon and hope he forgets he can build ghosts? Pray you get enough storms off to kill mech (stronger than bio) and again forgets about ghosts? That game was obviously poor but even on paper there doesn't seem to be any gaps in that armour...it's even fairly mobile! How is this different than WOL? What were you hoping for? A huge gap in the Terran's composition that Protoss can exploit without answer? Well he's saying that this one composition basically counters everything protoss can do, which I think we could agree would be pretty boring, no? I don't see how this is the case in WOL. Yep. The thing about WoL is that TvP is less about countering compositions by a-moving other compositions into them and more about engagement/positioning/timing/micro. Immortals, Void Rays, Chargelots, and maybe Tempests seem like the only things that will be good against Terran mech, and all of those units are straight up a-move units.
Ah I hear you. But TvP hasn't always been like this no? I remember some weird and wild times in the beta and first year that were more about composition. Oh the maurauders... But I guess I get your point. MMM was considered terran's catch all for quite a while (in all matchups). Maybe this will be the case for this mech comp until the meta carries it away. I dunno.
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lets see what the beta brings. widowMine is so endless ridiculous ... atm I consider switching from P to T
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On August 16 2012 07:30 Lightspeaker wrote:
Ok. Read the whole thread. Simple question- what in the hell is Protoss supposed to build against Battle Hellions (BH), Warhounds (WH) and Vikings as a composition?
Let's review all of Protoss combat capable units and list things that can kill them in that.
Zealot - BH
Stalker - WH
Sentry - anything
Dark Templar - scan and anything
High Templar - anything. Might do good damage but mech beefier than bio
Archon - usable but unlikely to be super effective. Couple ghosts would shut down hardcore
Immortal - WH (missiles...)
Colossus - Viking and possibly WH
Phoenix - Vikings trade well and are reactored
Void ray - Viking
Tempest - Viking
So what's the plan? Mass archon and hope he forgets he can build ghosts? Pray you get enough storms off to kill mech (stronger than bio) and again forgets about ghosts? That game was obviously poor but even on paper there doesn't seem to be any gaps in that armour...it's even fairly mobile!
Seriously? This simplistic concept of counters is not how to think of this game. If you look at sentries by themselvevs every single unit in the game kills them, yet many people claim they are OP (I quite like them myself). Do you expect Toss to have one unit that you can just build an auto win every game?
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On August 16 2012 07:30 Lightspeaker wrote:
Ok. Read the whole thread. Simple question- what in the hell is Protoss supposed to build against Battle Hellions (BH), Warhounds (WH) and Vikings as a composition?
Let's review all of Protoss combat capable units and list things that can kill them in that.
Zealot - BH
Stalker - WH
Sentry - anything
Dark Templar - scan and anything
High Templar - anything. Might do good damage but mech beefier than bio
Archon - usable but unlikely to be super effective. Couple ghosts would shut down hardcore
Immortal - WH (missiles...)
Colossus - Viking and possibly WH
Phoenix - Vikings trade well and are reactored
Void ray - Viking
Tempest - Viking
So what's the plan? Mass archon and hope he forgets he can build ghosts? Pray you get enough storms off to kill mech (stronger than bio) and again forgets about ghosts? That game was obviously poor but even on paper there doesn't seem to be any gaps in that armour...it's even fairly mobile!
Let me explain to you why this kind of thinking is useless and pointless.
Omg wtf is Terran supposed to do against deathball???
Marine - templar/colossus
Marauder - zealot/immortal/archon
Viking - stalker/templar
Ghost - everything
Anything with energy - templar
Tanks - every non-spellcaster unit
There just ain't no beating that Protoss, this shit is unwinnable.
Or, you could just not do a bunch of silly unit to unit theorycrafting that can be twisted to suit any viewpoint and never represents how things work out in game.
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On August 16 2012 08:19 Le BucheRON wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 08:13 Shiori wrote:On August 16 2012 08:11 Ameisenmann wrote:On August 16 2012 08:01 Le BucheRON wrote:On August 16 2012 07:30 Lightspeaker wrote:
Ok. Read the whole thread. Simple question- what in the hell is Protoss supposed to build against Battle Hellions (BH), Warhounds (WH) and Vikings as a composition?
Let's review all of Protoss combat capable units and list things that can kill them in that.
Zealot - BH
Stalker - WH
Sentry - anything
Dark Templar - scan and anything
High Templar - anything. Might do good damage but mech beefier than bio
Archon - usable but unlikely to be super effective. Couple ghosts would shut down hardcore
Immortal - WH (missiles...)
Colossus - Viking and possibly WH
Phoenix - Vikings trade well and are reactored
Void ray - Viking
Tempest - Viking
So what's the plan? Mass archon and hope he forgets he can build ghosts? Pray you get enough storms off to kill mech (stronger than bio) and again forgets about ghosts? That game was obviously poor but even on paper there doesn't seem to be any gaps in that armour...it's even fairly mobile! How is this different than WOL? What were you hoping for? A huge gap in the Terran's composition that Protoss can exploit without answer? Well he's saying that this one composition basically counters everything protoss can do, which I think we could agree would be pretty boring, no? I don't see how this is the case in WOL. Yep. The thing about WoL is that TvP is less about countering compositions by a-moving other compositions into them and more about engagement/positioning/timing/micro. Immortals, Void Rays, Chargelots, and maybe Tempests seem like the only things that will be good against Terran mech, and all of those units are straight up a-move units. Ah I hear you. But TvP hasn't always been like this no? I remember some weird and wild times in the beta and first year that were more about composition. Oh the maurauders... But I guess I get your point. MMM was considered terran's catch all for quite a while (in all matchups). Maybe this will be the case for this mech comp until the meta carries it away. I dunno.
The thing is that MMMVG still works fine in TvP, despite what a select few foreigners and scrubby ladder Terrans would tell you. There's no need to make mech strong except insofar as it needs to be "viable." But I mean, it still needs to be tactical and require some mechanics to pull off. It shouldn't just be an easier version of bio. That's silly.
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On August 16 2012 08:42 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 07:30 Lightspeaker wrote:
Ok. Read the whole thread. Simple question- what in the hell is Protoss supposed to build against Battle Hellions (BH), Warhounds (WH) and Vikings as a composition?
Let's review all of Protoss combat capable units and list things that can kill them in that.
Zealot - BH
Stalker - WH
Sentry - anything
Dark Templar - scan and anything
High Templar - anything. Might do good damage but mech beefier than bio
Archon - usable but unlikely to be super effective. Couple ghosts would shut down hardcore
Immortal - WH (missiles...)
Colossus - Viking and possibly WH
Phoenix - Vikings trade well and are reactored
Void ray - Viking
Tempest - Viking
So what's the plan? Mass archon and hope he forgets he can build ghosts? Pray you get enough storms off to kill mech (stronger than bio) and again forgets about ghosts? That game was obviously poor but even on paper there doesn't seem to be any gaps in that armour...it's even fairly mobile! Let me explain to you why this kind of thinking is useless and pointless. Omg wtf is Terran supposed to do against deathball??? Marine - templar/colossus Marauder - zealot/immortal/archon Viking - stalker/templar Ghost - everything Anything with energy - templar Tanks - every non-spellcaster unit There just ain't no beating that Protoss, this shit is unwinnable. Or, you could just not do a bunch of silly unit to unit theorycrafting that can be twisted to suit any viewpoint and never represents how things work out in game.
There's another side to his question that you're missing.
-The battle hellion is designed to be a tanking unit that deals wide-area splash damage to units like zealots.
-The warhound is designed to be a general purpose unit that deals massive damage to mechanical units (i.e. every protoss unit that isn't being baked by the battle hellions in front of it).
-The viking beats the hell out of every long-range protoss unit (colossus, air) that could conceivably alter the 'battle hellions+warhounds > protoss' situation
I didn't give any specifics like damage, health, cost or whatever else. I don't need to. The intended effect of the battle hellion and warhound has been shown many times. Blizzard will do their best to "get it right" in the sense that warhounds murder stalkers, and battle hellions murder zealots (and all the in-between cases). If those units DON'T do that, terran mech comes out of this expansion losing the thor, and gaining nothing of value. That could also happen...but either way it's a loss for the playerbase, and if you can't see that you're being a bit too optimistic.
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On August 16 2012 07:46 Jerubaal wrote:
The majority of this thread is pants on head level. Do you not remember following the same cycle for every game? When WoL was coming out half the threads were filled with people saying how terrible it is. In less than a year, all the imbeciles complaining about what an awful terrible game D3 is will be gone. Now you'll go on and on about how terrible HotS is and puppy surprise the game won't be a horrific disaster. Partly because Blizzard will react and adjust, partly because you just don't know what you're talking about, but mostly because you just call everything terrible.
WoL is flawed as hell and Diablo 3 is an awful piece of steaming pile of shit and I could have programmed a better game in 15 minutes and I don't even know programming.
You're wrong.
On August 16 2012 08:19 Le BucheRON wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 08:13 Shiori wrote:On August 16 2012 08:11 Ameisenmann wrote:On August 16 2012 08:01 Le BucheRON wrote:On August 16 2012 07:30 Lightspeaker wrote:
Ok. Read the whole thread. Simple question- what in the hell is Protoss supposed to build against Battle Hellions (BH), Warhounds (WH) and Vikings as a composition?
Let's review all of Protoss combat capable units and list things that can kill them in that.
Zealot - BH
Stalker - WH
Sentry - anything
Dark Templar - scan and anything
High Templar - anything. Might do good damage but mech beefier than bio
Archon - usable but unlikely to be super effective. Couple ghosts would shut down hardcore
Immortal - WH (missiles...)
Colossus - Viking and possibly WH
Phoenix - Vikings trade well and are reactored
Void ray - Viking
Tempest - Viking
So what's the plan? Mass archon and hope he forgets he can build ghosts? Pray you get enough storms off to kill mech (stronger than bio) and again forgets about ghosts? That game was obviously poor but even on paper there doesn't seem to be any gaps in that armour...it's even fairly mobile! How is this different than WOL? What were you hoping for? A huge gap in the Terran's composition that Protoss can exploit without answer? Well he's saying that this one composition basically counters everything protoss can do, which I think we could agree would be pretty boring, no? I don't see how this is the case in WOL. Yep. The thing about WoL is that TvP is less about countering compositions by a-moving other compositions into them and more about engagement/positioning/timing/micro. Immortals, Void Rays, Chargelots, and maybe Tempests seem like the only things that will be good against Terran mech, and all of those units are straight up a-move units. Ah I hear you. But TvP hasn't always been like this no? I remember some weird and wild times in the beta and first year that were more about composition. Oh the maurauders... But I guess I get your point. MMM was considered terran's catch all for quite a while (in all matchups). Maybe this will be the case for this mech comp until the meta carries it away. I dunno.
Marauder/tank used to be a go to strategy in TvP before when tanks did 50 damage to everything and could 3 shot zealots.
Now, not so much.
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On August 16 2012 00:28 Qikz wrote:
I know this sounds silly, but you guys realise this is the same build they showed off last year at Blizzcon right?
It's not a new build at all.
Wrong. Widow mine was not in blizzcon, neither was the current form of the tempest, mother ship core, overseer, current form of the warhound. Get your facts straight before posting please.
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EPT
