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On August 15 2012 21:38 [N3O]r3d33m3r wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 16:52 Snowbear wrote:The only reason why so many people quit starcraft 2 is because it's too hard to be good for them. Meanwhile there is League of Legends, where it is hard to NOT be good. Starcraft 2 is a game you play alone, so if you lose it's YOUR mistake. In league of legends it's the mistake of your teammates  . Another note is that starcraft 2 is watchable for people that don't know the game. Meanwhile League of Legends is only watchable if you know the game. A very good esport title, isn't it? no wrong, the reason is that LoL is at least 4x as much fun than sc2. whoever i added last year is still playing! and that's out of like 40 people. some of them play not so regularl,y but still do, other sstil lfrequently. go to sc2, ladder, add 5 cool dudes. play for months and look... about 5 months later... who is still left of those 5 cool dudes? probably not even one.
That doesn't have anything to do with SC2, but rather it's Blizzards fault for having a UI that alienated you from the rest of the community.
Online tournaments with rankings, proper chat channels, clan channels and ingame clans. All of those would have made the game feel more alive rather than so lonesome. As far as fun goes, Lol doesn't hold a candle to SC2, but SC2 is harder to get to enjoy.
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On August 16 2012 02:13 fuzzz wrote:
dont like the rocks. 6 pool and fight for the watchtower.... stupid map gimmiks. hope they do not make it into ladder
Let me make sure I understand your post. You're concerned that people will 6-pool on a 2-player map so that they can... control the xel'naga tower?
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On August 15 2012 22:03 Thezzy wrote:
The Mothership Core cannon feels like a rush immunity gimmick. Not only does it do 60 damage but it has 13 range.
Protoss could bait an attack to get near the Nexus and then switch it on. For me it feels like the stakes/risks for an attack have suddenly gone up by a ton as I have to be prepared to fight a Mothership Core. Even though it only lasts 20 seconds, with 13 range it can be hard to retreat and retreating is the last thing I want to do when I'm attacking early on.
I don't know if it has a cooldown but if Protoss saves his energy he could activate it twice in a row.
The Mothership Core's Purifier, in terms of late-early game/mid game attacks is a glorified forfielded ramp. 20 seconds is 5 seconds more than a forcefield... so now passive Protoss won't have to make 2 sentries so early (While being forced to have slower warpgate tech). Even better, is that it has no splash and can only be used twice. Yeah, with its attack speed it could kill at MAXIMUM 5 marauders, if the marauders just sat there getting wailed on, per usage. SO OP NO MORE TERRAN MID GAME PUSHES!
I'm more interested in energize... could you imagine having 4 warpgate cycles of zealots in ONE MINUTE? For a sustained period of a few minutes with so much chronoboost? I'm salivating at the thought of it... hopefully they make the max energy on a nexus 200... kekekeke|
Oh, and it currently requires a gateway and 50 gas, so at the moment it should come out at earliest 30 seconds after when warpgate tech is usually started... so most of the earliest rushes shouldn't actually have to worry about it.
In a way, Mothership core should make early medivac/infantry timings even STRONGER because of the delay that it should give warpgate tech.
I don't really know what the incentive to getting it early on is... what do Protoss really need it for? More Chronoboost?
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On August 16 2012 02:27 PanzerKing wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 02:13 fuzzz wrote:
dont like the rocks. 6 pool and fight for the watchtower.... stupid map gimmiks. hope they do not make it into ladder Let me make sure I understand your post. You're concerned that people will 6-pool on a 2-player map so that they can... control the xel'naga tower?
where you been? its been standard for past 2 months
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On August 16 2012 02:40 ShatterZer0 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 22:03 Thezzy wrote:
The Mothership Core cannon feels like a rush immunity gimmick. Not only does it do 60 damage but it has 13 range.
Protoss could bait an attack to get near the Nexus and then switch it on. For me it feels like the stakes/risks for an attack have suddenly gone up by a ton as I have to be prepared to fight a Mothership Core. Even though it only lasts 20 seconds, with 13 range it can be hard to retreat and retreating is the last thing I want to do when I'm attacking early on.
I don't know if it has a cooldown but if Protoss saves his energy he could activate it twice in a row.
The Mothership Core's Purifier, in terms of late-early game/mid game attacks is a glorified forfielded ramp. 20 seconds is 5 seconds more than a forcefield... so now passive Protoss won't have to make 2 sentries so early (While being forced to have slower warpgate tech). Even better, is that it has no splash and can only be used twice. Yeah, with its attack speed it could kill at MAXIMUM 5 marauders, if the marauders just sat there getting wailed on, per usage. SO OP NO MORE TERRAN MID GAME PUSHES! I'm more interested in energize... could you imagine having 4 warpgate cycles of zealots in ONE MINUTE? For a sustained period of a few minutes with so much chronoboost? I'm salivating at the thought of it... hopefully they make the max energy on a nexus 200... kekekeke| Oh, and it currently requires a gateway and 50 gas, so at the moment it should come out at earliest 30 seconds after when warpgate tech is usually started... so most of the earliest rushes shouldn't actually have to worry about it. In a way, Mothership core should make early medivac/infantry timings even STRONGER because of the delay that it should give warpgate tech. I don't really know what the incentive to getting it early on is... what do Protoss really need it for? More Chronoboost?
Mmmmmm unlimited chrono boost, so I can return to my base every 20 blizzard seconds to....boost more warpgates?
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United States7483 Posts
On August 15 2012 16:24 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 16:11 Adreme wrote:On August 15 2012 16:02 blade55555 wrote:On August 15 2012 14:25 furerkip wrote:On August 15 2012 14:02 Infernal_dream wrote:On August 15 2012 13:58 Whitewing wrote:On August 15 2012 10:55 forsooth wrote:On August 15 2012 10:02 Cabinet Sanchez wrote:On August 15 2012 08:42 forsooth wrote:On August 14 2012 20:55 Cabinet Sanchez wrote:
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You summarised it well, they really do feel like cheesey fucking C&C units.
I don't mean to pick on Dustin, I mean he's a person, we shouldn't be assholes to the guy but isn't it a coincidence that he turns up and all the elements of Brood War which were good seem pissed away just to make room for "cool shit! LOL" in SC2? These units have a distinct C&C or Supreme Commander lameness about them. Plus - to get nerdy, they just don't really seem to fit in with the lore of the units for the Terrans in the Starcraft fucking universe!
I get the impression that Blizzard don't know what mech actually means. It does not damn well mean that you get units with the same movement, acceration, turning speed as bio units, the same or similar firing rates or types but just make the unit models fucking machines! because the new Terran mech army seems no different at all from a bio army! Except unlike having to press T to stim them, the warhound will autocast the damn homing rocket.....
Madness
[quote]
Theorycraft time.
Make mothership core require cyb core, change range to 12 and reduce damage.
Make recall a researchable item at the cyb core, requires twighlight council before you can use it.
Seems to allow people to still defend their base *kinda* early, delays the recall which I agree seems overly powerful yet makes it interesting in that it's researchable (and possible to chronoboost it) AND it makes you have to choose either air weapons/armour or researching recall (unless you build 2 cyb cores)
Solved?
Protoss already has an easier time than anyone else defending drops with cannons and warp-ins. Adding more ways is ridiculous. No, it's not ridiculous, you need to read the article on the defenders advantage. I'm talking about all 3 races, not just Protoss, needing slightly better base defence, which makes for longer games and just that tiny chance more that we'll have comebacks - which seem unfortunately extremely rare - even 2 years into WoL. There's already more than sufficient at-home defense for every race. Defender's advantage for Protoss is a PvP issue, not a PvZ/T issue. Sticking a big arclite cannon on top of a nexus in a base that already has cannons and power fields for units to be warped in is absolutely ridiculous, and recall just takes it even further. The whole idea is idiotic and guarantees a Protoss main complete freedom from all harass. If Protoss players want a more stable mirror, they should look at the actual problems with the design of warp gates rather than welcoming even more forgiving, get out of trouble free options that will make this game even more stale than it already is. It actually is a PvZ issue. One of the biggest PvZ problems is being aggressive early game, it's part of the reason so many players like Liquid`Nony are struggling to still use gateway expand builds rather than forge FE. This being available early may allow for gateway expand builds to be stable and reliable against early zerg all-ins, and make terrans think again before pulling the scv train bit-by-bit style and going all in super early. It's a good change, and it won't help much once the opponent unlocks the tech needed to pressure multiple locations at once or bypass terran issues (medivacs, overlord drops, mutas, blink, etc.). It opens up protoss early game a bit and makes them a little less predictable, which is a very good thing. On the other hand, it doesn't noticably increase the power of protoss pressure. The mass recall makes protoss pressure less risky early game for the toss, but at the same time, using it means no cannon to hold a counter attack. Forcing toss to use the cannon then backing out will also prevent mass recalls: they're both high energy cost spells. Plus, from the looks of things, I'd much rather use the mothership core energy on recharging oracles and sentries. Agreed. Just a lot of zergs bitching they wont be able to instantly rush a third because the protoss wont be forced into ffe and can do some really early pressure without worrying about getting cleaned out when they leave the base. Why isn't that a problem though? Like, you can fast expand AND put pressure on Zerg without any risk for your base or your army... Isn't that bad? Wow someone with logic! Yes it is bad and I have said it before and will say again I hope it gets changed to later game. I can just picture it now "Yes I have his army surrounded why he attacked is a mystery" "oh wait fuck recall". I more than welcome the ability to put on pressure or really do anything in a PvZ before the 10 minute mark. The fact that any matchup can have that few engagements early and even in some cases mid is a bad meta game that doesnt seem to be evolving out of. I've always felt that exerting non-committal pressure as Protoss is pretty dicey. Gateway units trade ok especially in really small numbers, but over-extension can be disastrous given the difficulty of retreating vs speed/conc shells etc. I'd like to do a bit more than just poke up the ramp in the early game, without risking losing all of my investment for no damage through no real fault of my own. However, mass recall may be going too far the other way. I'd like it if somehow the radius was a lot smaller in the early game (say 6/7 units big), but could be upgraded lategame so you'd have the chance to recall like the mothership currently allows you to do.
Mass recall is less than once every 4 minutes if you never use the mothership core for anything except mass recall.
More importantly, it is a problem if Protoss can't put pressure on after expanding, because it means zerg gets away with double expanding then holding everything. I should be able to attack after expanding and punish a player who is playing greedier than I am, but I can't in this matchup, I have to catch zerg by surprise with something at a timing where he's not ready, regardless of how greedy he is. If zerg is scouting properly with their new shiny fast overlords, there's pretty much nothing you can do to them. This is exactly what pro zergs like Stephano have been saying for a long time about the matchup.
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On August 16 2012 00:48 GohgamX wrote:
Still not a fan of the war hound look and feel... I did however like the destructible rock towers.
Dustin Browder has a son???
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Widow mines are ridiculous... because they're boring as hell.
You can't kill them en route, you can't really avoid them with detectors, their splash is easily mitigated, and they're auto-latch...
Why create such an obviously terrible unit?
So unlike the warhound, a unit that is completely unlike a marauder with 75 more HP.
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Northern Ireland23754 Posts
On August 16 2012 02:44 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 02:40 ShatterZer0 wrote:On August 15 2012 22:03 Thezzy wrote:
The Mothership Core cannon feels like a rush immunity gimmick. Not only does it do 60 damage but it has 13 range.
Protoss could bait an attack to get near the Nexus and then switch it on. For me it feels like the stakes/risks for an attack have suddenly gone up by a ton as I have to be prepared to fight a Mothership Core. Even though it only lasts 20 seconds, with 13 range it can be hard to retreat and retreating is the last thing I want to do when I'm attacking early on.
I don't know if it has a cooldown but if Protoss saves his energy he could activate it twice in a row.
The Mothership Core's Purifier, in terms of late-early game/mid game attacks is a glorified forfielded ramp. 20 seconds is 5 seconds more than a forcefield... so now passive Protoss won't have to make 2 sentries so early (While being forced to have slower warpgate tech). Even better, is that it has no splash and can only be used twice. Yeah, with its attack speed it could kill at MAXIMUM 5 marauders, if the marauders just sat there getting wailed on, per usage. SO OP NO MORE TERRAN MID GAME PUSHES! I'm more interested in energize... could you imagine having 4 warpgate cycles of zealots in ONE MINUTE? For a sustained period of a few minutes with so much chronoboost? I'm salivating at the thought of it... hopefully they make the max energy on a nexus 200... kekekeke| Oh, and it currently requires a gateway and 50 gas, so at the moment it should come out at earliest 30 seconds after when warpgate tech is usually started... so most of the earliest rushes shouldn't actually have to worry about it. In a way, Mothership core should make early medivac/infantry timings even STRONGER because of the delay that it should give warpgate tech. I don't really know what the incentive to getting it early on is... what do Protoss really need it for? More Chronoboost? Mmmmmm unlimited chrono boost, so I can return to my base every 20 blizzard seconds to....boost more warpgates?
Double... forgeeeeeee!
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On August 16 2012 02:44 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 02:40 ShatterZer0 wrote:On August 15 2012 22:03 Thezzy wrote:
The Mothership Core cannon feels like a rush immunity gimmick. Not only does it do 60 damage but it has 13 range.
Protoss could bait an attack to get near the Nexus and then switch it on. For me it feels like the stakes/risks for an attack have suddenly gone up by a ton as I have to be prepared to fight a Mothership Core. Even though it only lasts 20 seconds, with 13 range it can be hard to retreat and retreating is the last thing I want to do when I'm attacking early on.
I don't know if it has a cooldown but if Protoss saves his energy he could activate it twice in a row.
The Mothership Core's Purifier, in terms of late-early game/mid game attacks is a glorified forfielded ramp. 20 seconds is 5 seconds more than a forcefield... so now passive Protoss won't have to make 2 sentries so early (While being forced to have slower warpgate tech). Even better, is that it has no splash and can only be used twice. Yeah, with its attack speed it could kill at MAXIMUM 5 marauders, if the marauders just sat there getting wailed on, per usage. SO OP NO MORE TERRAN MID GAME PUSHES! I'm more interested in energize... could you imagine having 4 warpgate cycles of zealots in ONE MINUTE? For a sustained period of a few minutes with so much chronoboost? I'm salivating at the thought of it... hopefully they make the max energy on a nexus 200... kekekeke| Oh, and it currently requires a gateway and 50 gas, so at the moment it should come out at earliest 30 seconds after when warpgate tech is usually started... so most of the earliest rushes shouldn't actually have to worry about it. In a way, Mothership core should make early medivac/infantry timings even STRONGER because of the delay that it should give warpgate tech. I don't really know what the incentive to getting it early on is... what do Protoss really need it for? More Chronoboost? Mmmmmm unlimited chrono boost, so I can return to my base every 20 blizzard seconds to....boost more warpgates?
6 base Sauron Toss incoming >:D
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On August 16 2012 02:48 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 16:24 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 15 2012 16:11 Adreme wrote:On August 15 2012 16:02 blade55555 wrote:On August 15 2012 14:25 furerkip wrote:On August 15 2012 14:02 Infernal_dream wrote:On August 15 2012 13:58 Whitewing wrote:On August 15 2012 10:55 forsooth wrote:On August 15 2012 10:02 Cabinet Sanchez wrote:On August 15 2012 08:42 forsooth wrote:
[quote]
Protoss already has an easier time than anyone else defending drops with cannons and warp-ins. Adding more ways is ridiculous. No, it's not ridiculous, you need to read the article on the defenders advantage. I'm talking about all 3 races, not just Protoss, needing slightly better base defence, which makes for longer games and just that tiny chance more that we'll have comebacks - which seem unfortunately extremely rare - even 2 years into WoL. There's already more than sufficient at-home defense for every race. Defender's advantage for Protoss is a PvP issue, not a PvZ/T issue. Sticking a big arclite cannon on top of a nexus in a base that already has cannons and power fields for units to be warped in is absolutely ridiculous, and recall just takes it even further. The whole idea is idiotic and guarantees a Protoss main complete freedom from all harass. If Protoss players want a more stable mirror, they should look at the actual problems with the design of warp gates rather than welcoming even more forgiving, get out of trouble free options that will make this game even more stale than it already is. It actually is a PvZ issue. One of the biggest PvZ problems is being aggressive early game, it's part of the reason so many players like Liquid`Nony are struggling to still use gateway expand builds rather than forge FE. This being available early may allow for gateway expand builds to be stable and reliable against early zerg all-ins, and make terrans think again before pulling the scv train bit-by-bit style and going all in super early. It's a good change, and it won't help much once the opponent unlocks the tech needed to pressure multiple locations at once or bypass terran issues (medivacs, overlord drops, mutas, blink, etc.). It opens up protoss early game a bit and makes them a little less predictable, which is a very good thing. On the other hand, it doesn't noticably increase the power of protoss pressure. The mass recall makes protoss pressure less risky early game for the toss, but at the same time, using it means no cannon to hold a counter attack. Forcing toss to use the cannon then backing out will also prevent mass recalls: they're both high energy cost spells. Plus, from the looks of things, I'd much rather use the mothership core energy on recharging oracles and sentries. Agreed. Just a lot of zergs bitching they wont be able to instantly rush a third because the protoss wont be forced into ffe and can do some really early pressure without worrying about getting cleaned out when they leave the base. Why isn't that a problem though? Like, you can fast expand AND put pressure on Zerg without any risk for your base or your army... Isn't that bad? Wow someone with logic! Yes it is bad and I have said it before and will say again I hope it gets changed to later game. I can just picture it now "Yes I have his army surrounded why he attacked is a mystery" "oh wait fuck recall". I more than welcome the ability to put on pressure or really do anything in a PvZ before the 10 minute mark. The fact that any matchup can have that few engagements early and even in some cases mid is a bad meta game that doesnt seem to be evolving out of. I've always felt that exerting non-committal pressure as Protoss is pretty dicey. Gateway units trade ok especially in really small numbers, but over-extension can be disastrous given the difficulty of retreating vs speed/conc shells etc. I'd like to do a bit more than just poke up the ramp in the early game, without risking losing all of my investment for no damage through no real fault of my own. However, mass recall may be going too far the other way. I'd like it if somehow the radius was a lot smaller in the early game (say 6/7 units big), but could be upgraded lategame so you'd have the chance to recall like the mothership currently allows you to do. Mass recall is less than once every 4 minutes if you never use the mothership core for anything except mass recall. More importantly, it is a problem if Protoss can't put pressure on after expanding, because it means zerg gets away with double expanding then holding everything. I should be able to attack after expanding and punish a player who is playing greedier than I am, but I can't in this matchup, I have to catch zerg by surprise with something at a timing where he's not ready, regardless of how greedy he is. If zerg is scouting properly with their new shiny fast overlords, there's pretty much nothing you can do to them. This is exactly what pro zergs like Stephano have been saying for a long time about the matchup.
Once every four minutes means max five times in a 20 minute game. Seven times in a 30 minute game. Sounds like it is limited enough to force people to make real decisions about it.
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Hope HotS isn't as stupid as it looks in this "battle report" (read: Advertisement)
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Would've been better to show a real game in my opinion. This report just made the new additions look silly. the way the whole thing played out made absolutely no sense and gave me no feeling of what to really expect. So all in all I'm still clueless about how everything could turn out, and I'm afraid blizzard is as well
I mostly got the impression that the new stuff doesn't allow for much interaction/reactions between the players. You can't really evade most of it, be it the mines, the oracles, this haywire thing, mass recall etc. Also, the collapsible rocks feel extremely artificial as a map feature, to say the least.
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Very disappointing.
Also, for the people that say that all zerg has to do is 1a. Well it kind of makes sense.
Zerg has the most units and they are all very squishy and easy to kill, save ultras. It wouldnt' make sense if you could keep them alive for too long because there are so many of them. This was the theme even in BW. Lots of cheap, easily crushed units that overwhelm their opponent based on numbers alone.
The "skill" in zerg comes from managing multiple bases, map control, and engaging at the right moment in a favorable location.
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On August 16 2012 03:40 Ameisenmann wrote:Would've been better to show a real game in my opinion. This report just made the new additions look silly. the way the whole thing played out made absolutely no sense and gave me no feeling of what to really expect. So all in all I'm still clueless about how everything could turn out, and I'm afraid blizzard is as well I mostly got the impression that the new stuff doesn't allow for much interaction/reactions between the players. You can't really evade most of it, be it the mines, the oracles, this haywire thing, mass recall etc. Also, the collapsible rocks feel extremely artificial as a map feature, to say the least.
The reason it looked silly is because the only unit additions to protoss are Stargate tech, which is already the most gimmicky branch of their tech tree. Therefore when they show it off, it means that half the toss army is going to be gimmicky units, because the toss tech tree isn't linear like the other two races.
Even though they only added factory stuff for terran, terrans receive all their basic techs by just getting to medivacs/vikings. Therefore showing off the new additions will come naturally as they tech up. At least there won't be any more silly factory scouting going on. Terrans will actually build things out of it for once!
As someone else mentioned earlier, why would Blizzard not touch templar tech? I think the guy said that the dark shrine has no abilities except to signal to your opponent that you are making DTs... It really is a stupid building. Either combine archives and shrine like it was in BW, or put some interesting upgrades for certain gateway units on it. Like an ability that makes it so DTs don't warn the opponent when attacking, or one that allows zealots to have a longer charge (only usable after regular charge is done). Or maybe something that makes sentries relevant in the late game. They should at least have an energy upgrade. An upgrade that increased shields would be nice too.
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Ms core is a unit you can np it to waste its energy you can emp it and you can kill it. Mass recall will be strong but you can hinder its use. Np it and recall you own army in the protoss base, winning. or recall bane in his mineral line. np it. dump fungal and infestor, energize your infestors and leave. Im going to hate zerg in hots im sure.
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On August 16 2012 05:29 hpTheGreat wrote:
Very disappointing.
Also, for the people that say that all zerg has to do is 1a. Well it kind of makes sense.
Zerg has the most units and they are all very squishy and easy to kill, save ultras. It wouldnt' make sense if you could keep them alive for too long because there are so many of them. This was the theme even in BW. Lots of cheap, easily crushed units that overwhelm their opponent based on numbers alone.
The "skill" in zerg comes from managing multiple bases, map control, and engaging at the right moment in a favorable location.
You're missing the point.
Zerg in BW required an incredible amount of positional micro, including Dark Swarms, contant flanks, etc. etc. Zerg in SC2 doesn't really need this, due to the pathing AI and due to the effectiveness of Fungal. The only time that you really need to work hard with positional micro is when you're working around strong choke points.
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They need to scrap war hounds to make mech work and actually make siege tank strong enough to the point where they're a threat when sieged up en masse no matter the matchup.
The purpose of the siege tank is to have superior fire power with the weaknesses being friendly fire, no air attacking and being forced to be stationary. If you can avoid all of those short comings and get siege up in a good position it should be extremely cost ineffective for anyone to bust you. At this point in WoL zerg and protoss can just charge into a fortified and sieged position and trade evenly at equal supply because of how weak siege tanks are, and in HotS they want to give terran mech the ability to do the same.
Mech = Siege tanks. Everything else is built to support them.
On August 16 2012 05:29 hpTheGreat wrote:
The "skill" in zerg comes from managing multiple bases, map control, and engaging at the right moment in a favorable location.
Lol, all races have to do those. If anything it's easiest for zerg to do all of those because of their mobility.
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I guess we'll have to play to find out, but not a good feeling after watching. I know everyone will say this after reading the featured mech article, but Battle hellions + Warhounds seem like boring units, just blob and attack. The mines, I'm willing to give a chance. Are they avoidable in any way? do you just have to sacrifice units?
With Protoss, recall seems too forgiving. I know you can't use it many times in a game, but I like the idea of rewarding players who make good decisions (when to move out etc) and punishing those who get caught. With something like recall too readily available it feels like you can just derp wherever you want with your army and recall if things get hot. At least with a mothership recall, the thing was slow as hell, and to recall somewhere it'd have to be away from your army (either not in the fight, or moving out alone, which is risky). It's also only available late game.
It also felt like hellions+warhounds do really well against standard protoss gateway armies - is there really a need to establish position with tanks? why get tanks at all? and if you use them unsieged, aren't they a lot like every other unit?
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EPT
