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A rework of SC/BW like Valve is doing with Dota 2 is my wet dream (with some changes like MBS and stuff).
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On August 16 2012 00:45 maartendq wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 18:19 Cabinet Sanchez wrote:On August 15 2012 13:50 Empirimancer wrote:
Hey, cheer up guys, HOTS may screw up the game, but the single-player will be pretty cool.
Did you play StarCraft 1, Warcraft 3 and then SC2? Because if you did, I'm not sure you should be saying that,... Starcraft 1: build base + units, destroy everything on the map Brood War: Build base + units, destroy everything on the map Warcraft 3: build base + units, destroy everything on the map TFT: build base + units, destroy everything on the map WoL: a rather large variation of missions, some of which included collecting stuff, guarding stuff, destroying stuff, or a combination of both. In terms of RTS campaign design, WoL is pretty much the best game out there.
Your impression and my impression of a good single player game are vastly different.
Warcraft 3, telling a schlocky fantasy story still did a vastly better job at it than Starcraft 2 simply through the use of heroes (no don't go all fucking teamliquid on me about how evil heroes are, in single player they work) - there was very little IN GAME storytelling, War 3 felt like an adventure / RTS / RPG - very good for single player while retaining good multi.
SC2's storytelling was primarily over the top-flashy in engine or CGI cutscenes with very little real depth and the missions were hollow. It took a step back - also it was fucking cliched for 2010 - good lord was it cliche.
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On August 16 2012 02:51 [N3O]r3d33m3r wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 00:48 GohgamX wrote:
Still not a fan of the war hound look and feel... I did however like the destructible rock towers. Dustin Browder has a son???
Sorry, I'm with him.
I happen to find a lot of the HoTS stuff stupid shit but I'm not sure I get the rock hate in SC2 - it adds an interesting dynamic to the game.
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On August 16 2012 21:36 Cabinet Sanchez wrote:
[..] I'm not sure I get the rock hate in SC2 - it adds an interesting dynamic to the game.
There have been interesting dynamics in the game on all kinds of maps.
- Testbug featured a watchtower covered in rocks (so tower only becomes accessible at midgame). Great idea.
- Metropolis tournament version featured a single creep tumor at the islands to prevent a float-expand by Terran.
- Some maps featured original expansion compositions, such as single gas expansions (Crevasse) or rich gas expansions (Daybreak). I can even imagine mixed high/low yield expansions on maps.
What happened with all those inventive ideas? They never end up on the laddermaps because Blizzard wants to standardize all laddermaps. I disagree with their opinion that those maps should be 'noobfriendly' since these features are simple to grasp and only enrich the game. Of course, stuff must not become overcomplicated and unbalanced. Simply not changing existing succesful maps like Daybreak would already suffice.
So what I'm trying to say is that something as interesting as collapsible rocks will probably be overused on the laddermaps by Blizzard, because they only have a few tools to make ladder maps interesting due to their own standardization requirements.
So just like rocks on the 3rd, we'll probably be going to see collapsible rocks on almost every map while original and useful ideas get ignored.... but let's hope that this won't happen...
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On August 16 2012 08:24 gulden wrote:
lets see what the beta brings. widowMine is so endless ridiculous ... atm I consider switching from P to T
I'm just going to lead my army with zerglings. Enjoy blowing up 25 minerals worth of unit.
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On August 16 2012 21:59 Morphs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 21:36 Cabinet Sanchez wrote:
[..] I'm not sure I get the rock hate in SC2 - it adds an interesting dynamic to the game. There have been interesting dynamics in the game on all kinds of maps. - Testbug featured a watchtower covered in rocks (so tower only becomes accessible at midgame). Great idea. - Metropolis tournament version featured a single creep tumor at the islands to prevent a float-expand by Terran. - Some maps featured original expansion compositions, such as single gas expansions (Crevasse) or rich gas expansions (Daybreak). I can even imagine mixed high/low yield expansions on maps. What happened with all those inventive ideas? They never end up on the laddermaps because Blizzard wants to standardize all laddermaps. I disagree with their opinion that those maps should be 'noobfriendly' since these features are simple to grasp and only enrich the game. Of course, stuff must not become overcomplicated and unbalanced. Simply not changing existing succesful maps like Daybreak would already suffice. So what I'm trying to say is that something as interesting as collapsible rocks will probably be overused on the laddermaps by Blizzard, because they only have a few tools to make ladder maps interesting due to their own standardization requirements. So just like rocks on the 3rd, we'll probably be going to see collapsible rocks on almost every map while original and useful ideas get ignored.... but let's hope that this won't happen...
Rocks get a bad rap cuz they're used on maps like Shattered temple or TDA to make it super fucking annoying as hell to take a 3rd or 4th.
On maps like daybreak or cloud kingdom or metropolis they're fine and I've not seen an intelligent person intelligently argue that they were unintelligent.
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On August 16 2012 19:30 Velr wrote:
A rework of SC/BW like Valve is doing with Dota 2 is my wet dream (with some changes like MBS and stuff).
Right that is the heart of what I'm saying - don't get so stuck up on specifics. Just some major producer who actually listens to their community - doesn't HAVE to be Valve.
And SC2 really is a knockoff of broodwar. Look at roles. Look at unit design. All the units that are new have been generally agreed on as terrible 1A. All the units that are old are knockoffs of the original.
I think my sig (honestly though, it is pretty hilarious) explains that argument pretty well. Just b/c it is a sequel does not give (although unfourtunately, this is what's happening) the devs the go-ahead to fuck everything up. Any time they've tried to be original for the sake of originality (instead of perfecting what's already there) they fuck up.
I just go through depression waves where I play, stop to think about it, and then just get so fucking depressed b/c Blizzard won't ever change any of the things I dream about being changed, that would make the game 10x more awesome. They're things that most want changed too - won't ever happen. Not the same company.
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On August 17 2012 01:32 Qwyn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 19:30 Velr wrote:
A rework of SC/BW like Valve is doing with Dota 2 is my wet dream (with some changes like MBS and stuff). Right that is the heart of what I'm saying - don't get so stuck up on specifics. Just some major producer who actually listens to their community - doesn't HAVE to be Valve. And SC2 really is a knockoff of broodwar. Look at roles. Look at unit design. All the units that are new have been generally agreed on as terrible 1A. All the units that are old are knockoffs of the original. I think my sig (honestly though, it is pretty hilarious) explains that argument pretty well. Just b/c it is a sequel does not give (although unfourtunately, this is what's happening) the devs the go-ahead to fuck everything up. Any time they've tried to be original for the sake of originality (instead of perfecting what's already there) they fuck up. I just go through depression waves where I play, stop to think about it, and then just get so fucking depressed b/c Blizzard won't ever change any of the things I dream about being changed, that would make the game 10x more awesome. They're things that most want changed too - won't ever happen. Not the same company.
From your posts in the battle report thread you've pretty much hated SC2 since beta. you thought the unit design was stupid then, thought the unit design is stupid now, and you think the future unit design is also stupid. Why don't you just fuckin quit the game and move on?
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Northern Ireland27041 Posts
On August 17 2012 02:04 Yoduh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 01:32 Qwyn wrote:On August 16 2012 19:30 Velr wrote:
A rework of SC/BW like Valve is doing with Dota 2 is my wet dream (with some changes like MBS and stuff). Right that is the heart of what I'm saying - don't get so stuck up on specifics. Just some major producer who actually listens to their community - doesn't HAVE to be Valve. And SC2 really is a knockoff of broodwar. Look at roles. Look at unit design. All the units that are new have been generally agreed on as terrible 1A. All the units that are old are knockoffs of the original. I think my sig (honestly though, it is pretty hilarious) explains that argument pretty well. Just b/c it is a sequel does not give (although unfourtunately, this is what's happening) the devs the go-ahead to fuck everything up. Any time they've tried to be original for the sake of originality (instead of perfecting what's already there) they fuck up. I just go through depression waves where I play, stop to think about it, and then just get so fucking depressed b/c Blizzard won't ever change any of the things I dream about being changed, that would make the game 10x more awesome. They're things that most want changed too - won't ever happen. Not the same company. From your posts in the battle report thread you've pretty much hated SC2 since beta. you thought the unit design was stupid then, thought the unit design is stupid now, and you think the future unit design is also stupid. Why don't you just fuckin quit the game and move on?
It's easier said than done. There aren't equivalent games that appeal to Starcraft's specific skillset. I mean if even Blizzard's games are getting dumbed down, think about what the rest of the games market is looking like
It's like having your favourite band of all time pump out bad album after bad album. You don't want to find a new favourite band, you want them to go back to what made them a good band in the first place.
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On August 17 2012 02:04 Yoduh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 01:32 Qwyn wrote:On August 16 2012 19:30 Velr wrote:
A rework of SC/BW like Valve is doing with Dota 2 is my wet dream (with some changes like MBS and stuff). Right that is the heart of what I'm saying - don't get so stuck up on specifics. Just some major producer who actually listens to their community - doesn't HAVE to be Valve. And SC2 really is a knockoff of broodwar. Look at roles. Look at unit design. All the units that are new have been generally agreed on as terrible 1A. All the units that are old are knockoffs of the original. I think my sig (honestly though, it is pretty hilarious) explains that argument pretty well. Just b/c it is a sequel does not give (although unfourtunately, this is what's happening) the devs the go-ahead to fuck everything up. Any time they've tried to be original for the sake of originality (instead of perfecting what's already there) they fuck up. I just go through depression waves where I play, stop to think about it, and then just get so fucking depressed b/c Blizzard won't ever change any of the things I dream about being changed, that would make the game 10x more awesome. They're things that most want changed too - won't ever happen. Not the same company. From your posts in the battle report thread you've pretty much hated SC2 since beta. you thought the unit design was stupid then, thought the unit design is stupid now, and you think the future unit design is also stupid. Why don't you just fuckin quit the game and move on?
I think about leaving. But hope is a strong thing, even when it's futile And the awesomeness of the community makes up for the game's failings.
. And this is a new thread. Don't claim that I always hated the game or that I hate everything about it from these posts. But yes, I think that any time the new Blizzard has meddled with old unit design it has come out terrible. There are some things about this game that I like. But very few.
And I came to this opinion over time. Originally I was a blind Blizzard supporter, like the kind in my sig. I had faith in them to do the right thing. I thought they were always right. But the more time I spent watching the proscene and developments on TL, the more jaded I became.
It's evident you want people who are staunchly against the current direction of the game to leave the discussion? Is that why you're trying to shut me out like that? It would make my fucking day if Blizzard came out, said they fucked up, and then truly began to make the game an esport.
That's why I'm here, b/c Blizzard has pushed so fucking hard to make this game the only RTS esport platform, to the point that now BW is dead, and there's no where left to turn. 2nd best is all we've got, and it's far below first.
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On August 16 2012 08:59 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 08:19 Le BucheRON wrote:On August 16 2012 08:13 Shiori wrote:On August 16 2012 08:11 Ameisenmann wrote:On August 16 2012 08:01 Le BucheRON wrote:On August 16 2012 07:30 Lightspeaker wrote:
Ok. Read the whole thread. Simple question- what in the hell is Protoss supposed to build against Battle Hellions (BH), Warhounds (WH) and Vikings as a composition?
Let's review all of Protoss combat capable units and list things that can kill them in that.
Zealot - BH
Stalker - WH
Sentry - anything
Dark Templar - scan and anything
High Templar - anything. Might do good damage but mech beefier than bio
Archon - usable but unlikely to be super effective. Couple ghosts would shut down hardcore
Immortal - WH (missiles...)
Colossus - Viking and possibly WH
Phoenix - Vikings trade well and are reactored
Void ray - Viking
Tempest - Viking
So what's the plan? Mass archon and hope he forgets he can build ghosts? Pray you get enough storms off to kill mech (stronger than bio) and again forgets about ghosts? That game was obviously poor but even on paper there doesn't seem to be any gaps in that armour...it's even fairly mobile! How is this different than WOL? What were you hoping for? A huge gap in the Terran's composition that Protoss can exploit without answer? Well he's saying that this one composition basically counters everything protoss can do, which I think we could agree would be pretty boring, no? I don't see how this is the case in WOL. Yep. The thing about WoL is that TvP is less about countering compositions by a-moving other compositions into them and more about engagement/positioning/timing/micro. Immortals, Void Rays, Chargelots, and maybe Tempests seem like the only things that will be good against Terran mech, and all of those units are straight up a-move units. Ah I hear you. But TvP hasn't always been like this no? I remember some weird and wild times in the beta and first year that were more about composition. Oh the maurauders... But I guess I get your point. MMM was considered terran's catch all for quite a while (in all matchups). Maybe this will be the case for this mech comp until the meta carries it away. I dunno. The thing is that MMMVG still works fine in TvP, despite what a select few foreigners and scrubby ladder Terrans would tell you. There's no need to make mech strong except insofar as it needs to be "viable." But I mean, it still needs to be tactical and require some mechanics to pull off. It shouldn't just be an easier version of bio. That's silly.
What?
MMVG does not work fine against Protoss. If the Protoss simply plays defensively and turtles until he has his 200 deathball of HT/Colossus/Gateway/Etc. you're dead. Period. Taeja lost to Seed at IPL and various other P's because they just don't play dumb and just defend until they have their big ass army and 1 a-click him down when he makes a mistake.
The new Mech is obviously very 1 a friendly, but it isn't like it doesn't have weaknesses.
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On August 17 2012 03:30 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 08:59 Shiori wrote:On August 16 2012 08:19 Le BucheRON wrote:On August 16 2012 08:13 Shiori wrote:On August 16 2012 08:11 Ameisenmann wrote:On August 16 2012 08:01 Le BucheRON wrote:On August 16 2012 07:30 Lightspeaker wrote:
Ok. Read the whole thread. Simple question- what in the hell is Protoss supposed to build against Battle Hellions (BH), Warhounds (WH) and Vikings as a composition?
Let's review all of Protoss combat capable units and list things that can kill them in that.
Zealot - BH
Stalker - WH
Sentry - anything
Dark Templar - scan and anything
High Templar - anything. Might do good damage but mech beefier than bio
Archon - usable but unlikely to be super effective. Couple ghosts would shut down hardcore
Immortal - WH (missiles...)
Colossus - Viking and possibly WH
Phoenix - Vikings trade well and are reactored
Void ray - Viking
Tempest - Viking
So what's the plan? Mass archon and hope he forgets he can build ghosts? Pray you get enough storms off to kill mech (stronger than bio) and again forgets about ghosts? That game was obviously poor but even on paper there doesn't seem to be any gaps in that armour...it's even fairly mobile! How is this different than WOL? What were you hoping for? A huge gap in the Terran's composition that Protoss can exploit without answer? Well he's saying that this one composition basically counters everything protoss can do, which I think we could agree would be pretty boring, no? I don't see how this is the case in WOL. Yep. The thing about WoL is that TvP is less about countering compositions by a-moving other compositions into them and more about engagement/positioning/timing/micro. Immortals, Void Rays, Chargelots, and maybe Tempests seem like the only things that will be good against Terran mech, and all of those units are straight up a-move units. Ah I hear you. But TvP hasn't always been like this no? I remember some weird and wild times in the beta and first year that were more about composition. Oh the maurauders... But I guess I get your point. MMM was considered terran's catch all for quite a while (in all matchups). Maybe this will be the case for this mech comp until the meta carries it away. I dunno. The thing is that MMMVG still works fine in TvP, despite what a select few foreigners and scrubby ladder Terrans would tell you. There's no need to make mech strong except insofar as it needs to be "viable." But I mean, it still needs to be tactical and require some mechanics to pull off. It shouldn't just be an easier version of bio. That's silly. What? MMVG does not work fine against Protoss. If the Protoss simply plays defensively and turtles until he has his 200 deathball of HT/Colossus/Gateway/Etc. you're dead. Period. Taeja lost to Seed at IPL and various other P's because they just don't play dumb and just defend until they have their big ass army and 1 a-click him down when he makes a mistake. The new Mech is obviously very 1 a friendly, but it isn't like it doesn't have weaknesses.
What weaknesses?
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On August 17 2012 03:30 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 08:59 Shiori wrote:On August 16 2012 08:19 Le BucheRON wrote:On August 16 2012 08:13 Shiori wrote:On August 16 2012 08:11 Ameisenmann wrote:On August 16 2012 08:01 Le BucheRON wrote:On August 16 2012 07:30 Lightspeaker wrote:
Ok. Read the whole thread. Simple question- what in the hell is Protoss supposed to build against Battle Hellions (BH), Warhounds (WH) and Vikings as a composition?
Let's review all of Protoss combat capable units and list things that can kill them in that.
Zealot - BH
Stalker - WH
Sentry - anything
Dark Templar - scan and anything
High Templar - anything. Might do good damage but mech beefier than bio
Archon - usable but unlikely to be super effective. Couple ghosts would shut down hardcore
Immortal - WH (missiles...)
Colossus - Viking and possibly WH
Phoenix - Vikings trade well and are reactored
Void ray - Viking
Tempest - Viking
So what's the plan? Mass archon and hope he forgets he can build ghosts? Pray you get enough storms off to kill mech (stronger than bio) and again forgets about ghosts? That game was obviously poor but even on paper there doesn't seem to be any gaps in that armour...it's even fairly mobile! How is this different than WOL? What were you hoping for? A huge gap in the Terran's composition that Protoss can exploit without answer? Well he's saying that this one composition basically counters everything protoss can do, which I think we could agree would be pretty boring, no? I don't see how this is the case in WOL. Yep. The thing about WoL is that TvP is less about countering compositions by a-moving other compositions into them and more about engagement/positioning/timing/micro. Immortals, Void Rays, Chargelots, and maybe Tempests seem like the only things that will be good against Terran mech, and all of those units are straight up a-move units. Ah I hear you. But TvP hasn't always been like this no? I remember some weird and wild times in the beta and first year that were more about composition. Oh the maurauders... But I guess I get your point. MMM was considered terran's catch all for quite a while (in all matchups). Maybe this will be the case for this mech comp until the meta carries it away. I dunno. The thing is that MMMVG still works fine in TvP, despite what a select few foreigners and scrubby ladder Terrans would tell you. There's no need to make mech strong except insofar as it needs to be "viable." But I mean, it still needs to be tactical and require some mechanics to pull off. It shouldn't just be an easier version of bio. That's silly. What? MMVG does not work fine against Protoss. If the Protoss simply plays defensively and turtles until he has his 200 deathball of HT/Colossus/Gateway/Etc. you're dead. Period. Taeja lost to Seed at IPL and various other P's because they just don't play dumb and just defend until they have their big ass army and 1 a-click him down when he makes a mistake. The new Mech is obviously very 1 a friendly, but it isn't like it doesn't have weaknesses.
Yeah, you don't understand how the matchup works if you think Seed vs Taeja was a matter of 1-a.
I hate when fucking idiots say this nonsense. I know you like to pretend that just because Taeja/MKP/Byun/other pro Terrans have amazing micro, it means that you, as a Terran player, have sick control compared to everyone you play on ladder, but you don't. I'm willing to bet your micro is god-awful, that you lose Ghosts before fights even begin, and that you overcommit on your Medivac push and then lose in the lategame.
There is absolutely no issue in PvT lategame at the highest level. Terran players are continuing to win reliably, and the better player usually wins. Where the fuck is the problem?
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On August 17 2012 03:32 Empirimancer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 03:30 superstartran wrote:On August 16 2012 08:59 Shiori wrote:On August 16 2012 08:19 Le BucheRON wrote:On August 16 2012 08:13 Shiori wrote:On August 16 2012 08:11 Ameisenmann wrote:On August 16 2012 08:01 Le BucheRON wrote:On August 16 2012 07:30 Lightspeaker wrote:
Ok. Read the whole thread. Simple question- what in the hell is Protoss supposed to build against Battle Hellions (BH), Warhounds (WH) and Vikings as a composition?
Let's review all of Protoss combat capable units and list things that can kill them in that.
Zealot - BH
Stalker - WH
Sentry - anything
Dark Templar - scan and anything
High Templar - anything. Might do good damage but mech beefier than bio
Archon - usable but unlikely to be super effective. Couple ghosts would shut down hardcore
Immortal - WH (missiles...)
Colossus - Viking and possibly WH
Phoenix - Vikings trade well and are reactored
Void ray - Viking
Tempest - Viking
So what's the plan? Mass archon and hope he forgets he can build ghosts? Pray you get enough storms off to kill mech (stronger than bio) and again forgets about ghosts? That game was obviously poor but even on paper there doesn't seem to be any gaps in that armour...it's even fairly mobile! How is this different than WOL? What were you hoping for? A huge gap in the Terran's composition that Protoss can exploit without answer? Well he's saying that this one composition basically counters everything protoss can do, which I think we could agree would be pretty boring, no? I don't see how this is the case in WOL. Yep. The thing about WoL is that TvP is less about countering compositions by a-moving other compositions into them and more about engagement/positioning/timing/micro. Immortals, Void Rays, Chargelots, and maybe Tempests seem like the only things that will be good against Terran mech, and all of those units are straight up a-move units. Ah I hear you. But TvP hasn't always been like this no? I remember some weird and wild times in the beta and first year that were more about composition. Oh the maurauders... But I guess I get your point. MMM was considered terran's catch all for quite a while (in all matchups). Maybe this will be the case for this mech comp until the meta carries it away. I dunno. The thing is that MMMVG still works fine in TvP, despite what a select few foreigners and scrubby ladder Terrans would tell you. There's no need to make mech strong except insofar as it needs to be "viable." But I mean, it still needs to be tactical and require some mechanics to pull off. It shouldn't just be an easier version of bio. That's silly. What? MMVG does not work fine against Protoss. If the Protoss simply plays defensively and turtles until he has his 200 deathball of HT/Colossus/Gateway/Etc. you're dead. Period. Taeja lost to Seed at IPL and various other P's because they just don't play dumb and just defend until they have their big ass army and 1 a-click him down when he makes a mistake. The new Mech is obviously very 1 a friendly, but it isn't like it doesn't have weaknesses. What weaknesses?
It looks terrible aesthetically.
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On August 17 2012 03:46 NukeD wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 03:32 Empirimancer wrote:On August 17 2012 03:30 superstartran wrote:On August 16 2012 08:59 Shiori wrote:On August 16 2012 08:19 Le BucheRON wrote:On August 16 2012 08:13 Shiori wrote:On August 16 2012 08:11 Ameisenmann wrote:On August 16 2012 08:01 Le BucheRON wrote:On August 16 2012 07:30 Lightspeaker wrote:
Ok. Read the whole thread. Simple question- what in the hell is Protoss supposed to build against Battle Hellions (BH), Warhounds (WH) and Vikings as a composition?
Let's review all of Protoss combat capable units and list things that can kill them in that.
Zealot - BH
Stalker - WH
Sentry - anything
Dark Templar - scan and anything
High Templar - anything. Might do good damage but mech beefier than bio
Archon - usable but unlikely to be super effective. Couple ghosts would shut down hardcore
Immortal - WH (missiles...)
Colossus - Viking and possibly WH
Phoenix - Vikings trade well and are reactored
Void ray - Viking
Tempest - Viking
So what's the plan? Mass archon and hope he forgets he can build ghosts? Pray you get enough storms off to kill mech (stronger than bio) and again forgets about ghosts? That game was obviously poor but even on paper there doesn't seem to be any gaps in that armour...it's even fairly mobile! How is this different than WOL? What were you hoping for? A huge gap in the Terran's composition that Protoss can exploit without answer? Well he's saying that this one composition basically counters everything protoss can do, which I think we could agree would be pretty boring, no? I don't see how this is the case in WOL. Yep. The thing about WoL is that TvP is less about countering compositions by a-moving other compositions into them and more about engagement/positioning/timing/micro. Immortals, Void Rays, Chargelots, and maybe Tempests seem like the only things that will be good against Terran mech, and all of those units are straight up a-move units. Ah I hear you. But TvP hasn't always been like this no? I remember some weird and wild times in the beta and first year that were more about composition. Oh the maurauders... But I guess I get your point. MMM was considered terran's catch all for quite a while (in all matchups). Maybe this will be the case for this mech comp until the meta carries it away. I dunno. The thing is that MMMVG still works fine in TvP, despite what a select few foreigners and scrubby ladder Terrans would tell you. There's no need to make mech strong except insofar as it needs to be "viable." But I mean, it still needs to be tactical and require some mechanics to pull off. It shouldn't just be an easier version of bio. That's silly. What? MMVG does not work fine against Protoss. If the Protoss simply plays defensively and turtles until he has his 200 deathball of HT/Colossus/Gateway/Etc. you're dead. Period. Taeja lost to Seed at IPL and various other P's because they just don't play dumb and just defend until they have their big ass army and 1 a-click him down when he makes a mistake. The new Mech is obviously very 1 a friendly, but it isn't like it doesn't have weaknesses. What weaknesses? It looks terrible aesthetically.
Got it. I'll take some art history courses this semester and convince my opponent to leave instead of perpetuating such terrible craftsmanship. Sounds good. Death of the Warhound and all that.
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On August 16 2012 19:30 Velr wrote:
A rework of SC/BW like Valve is doing with Dota 2 is my wet dream (with some changes like MBS and stuff).
its on sc2 already, its called Sc2 BW.Can be found in the custom map section.
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On August 17 2012 03:43 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 03:30 superstartran wrote:On August 16 2012 08:59 Shiori wrote:On August 16 2012 08:19 Le BucheRON wrote:On August 16 2012 08:13 Shiori wrote:On August 16 2012 08:11 Ameisenmann wrote:On August 16 2012 08:01 Le BucheRON wrote:On August 16 2012 07:30 Lightspeaker wrote:
Ok. Read the whole thread. Simple question- what in the hell is Protoss supposed to build against Battle Hellions (BH), Warhounds (WH) and Vikings as a composition?
Let's review all of Protoss combat capable units and list things that can kill them in that.
Zealot - BH
Stalker - WH
Sentry - anything
Dark Templar - scan and anything
High Templar - anything. Might do good damage but mech beefier than bio
Archon - usable but unlikely to be super effective. Couple ghosts would shut down hardcore
Immortal - WH (missiles...)
Colossus - Viking and possibly WH
Phoenix - Vikings trade well and are reactored
Void ray - Viking
Tempest - Viking
So what's the plan? Mass archon and hope he forgets he can build ghosts? Pray you get enough storms off to kill mech (stronger than bio) and again forgets about ghosts? That game was obviously poor but even on paper there doesn't seem to be any gaps in that armour...it's even fairly mobile! How is this different than WOL? What were you hoping for? A huge gap in the Terran's composition that Protoss can exploit without answer? Well he's saying that this one composition basically counters everything protoss can do, which I think we could agree would be pretty boring, no? I don't see how this is the case in WOL. Yep. The thing about WoL is that TvP is less about countering compositions by a-moving other compositions into them and more about engagement/positioning/timing/micro. Immortals, Void Rays, Chargelots, and maybe Tempests seem like the only things that will be good against Terran mech, and all of those units are straight up a-move units. Ah I hear you. But TvP hasn't always been like this no? I remember some weird and wild times in the beta and first year that were more about composition. Oh the maurauders... But I guess I get your point. MMM was considered terran's catch all for quite a while (in all matchups). Maybe this will be the case for this mech comp until the meta carries it away. I dunno. The thing is that MMMVG still works fine in TvP, despite what a select few foreigners and scrubby ladder Terrans would tell you. There's no need to make mech strong except insofar as it needs to be "viable." But I mean, it still needs to be tactical and require some mechanics to pull off. It shouldn't just be an easier version of bio. That's silly. What? MMVG does not work fine against Protoss. If the Protoss simply plays defensively and turtles until he has his 200 deathball of HT/Colossus/Gateway/Etc. you're dead. Period. Taeja lost to Seed at IPL and various other P's because they just don't play dumb and just defend until they have their big ass army and 1 a-click him down when he makes a mistake. The new Mech is obviously very 1 a friendly, but it isn't like it doesn't have weaknesses. Yeah, you don't understand how the matchup works if you think Seed vs Taeja was a matter of 1-a. I hate when fucking idiots say this nonsense. I know you like to pretend that just because Taeja/MKP/Byun/other pro Terrans have amazing micro, it means that you, as a Terran player, have sick control compared to everyone you play on ladder, but you don't. I'm willing to bet your micro is god-awful, that you lose Ghosts before fights even begin, and that you overcommit on your Medivac push and then lose in the lategame. There is absolutely no issue in PvT lategame at the highest level. Terran players are continuing to win reliably, and the better player usually wins. Where the fuck is the problem?
I echo Shiori. Even though late game protoss is powerful, you just need to continually be aggressive as terran. Most times, even pro protoss players will get extremely fazed out due to the extreme pressure and lose units here and there. The one thing that terrans needs to learn how to do is take out proxy pylons in the late game (near there expansions) and snipe observers with vikings and come in with cloaked ghosts to decimate the protoss army. And plus air upgrades help a TON.
I think Taeja vs Seed came down to one huge moment. Just as taeja walked into the natural, an observer popped out of the robotics facility which died literally a second after the observer came out. Taeja was planning to use cloaked ghosts but couldnt because of the observer spotting everything.
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On August 17 2012 03:43 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 03:30 superstartran wrote:On August 16 2012 08:59 Shiori wrote:On August 16 2012 08:19 Le BucheRON wrote:On August 16 2012 08:13 Shiori wrote:On August 16 2012 08:11 Ameisenmann wrote:On August 16 2012 08:01 Le BucheRON wrote:On August 16 2012 07:30 Lightspeaker wrote:
Ok. Read the whole thread. Simple question- what in the hell is Protoss supposed to build against Battle Hellions (BH), Warhounds (WH) and Vikings as a composition?
Let's review all of Protoss combat capable units and list things that can kill them in that.
Zealot - BH
Stalker - WH
Sentry - anything
Dark Templar - scan and anything
High Templar - anything. Might do good damage but mech beefier than bio
Archon - usable but unlikely to be super effective. Couple ghosts would shut down hardcore
Immortal - WH (missiles...)
Colossus - Viking and possibly WH
Phoenix - Vikings trade well and are reactored
Void ray - Viking
Tempest - Viking
So what's the plan? Mass archon and hope he forgets he can build ghosts? Pray you get enough storms off to kill mech (stronger than bio) and again forgets about ghosts? That game was obviously poor but even on paper there doesn't seem to be any gaps in that armour...it's even fairly mobile! How is this different than WOL? What were you hoping for? A huge gap in the Terran's composition that Protoss can exploit without answer? Well he's saying that this one composition basically counters everything protoss can do, which I think we could agree would be pretty boring, no? I don't see how this is the case in WOL. Yep. The thing about WoL is that TvP is less about countering compositions by a-moving other compositions into them and more about engagement/positioning/timing/micro. Immortals, Void Rays, Chargelots, and maybe Tempests seem like the only things that will be good against Terran mech, and all of those units are straight up a-move units. Ah I hear you. But TvP hasn't always been like this no? I remember some weird and wild times in the beta and first year that were more about composition. Oh the maurauders... But I guess I get your point. MMM was considered terran's catch all for quite a while (in all matchups). Maybe this will be the case for this mech comp until the meta carries it away. I dunno. The thing is that MMMVG still works fine in TvP, despite what a select few foreigners and scrubby ladder Terrans would tell you. There's no need to make mech strong except insofar as it needs to be "viable." But I mean, it still needs to be tactical and require some mechanics to pull off. It shouldn't just be an easier version of bio. That's silly. What? MMVG does not work fine against Protoss. If the Protoss simply plays defensively and turtles until he has his 200 deathball of HT/Colossus/Gateway/Etc. you're dead. Period. Taeja lost to Seed at IPL and various other P's because they just don't play dumb and just defend until they have their big ass army and 1 a-click him down when he makes a mistake. The new Mech is obviously very 1 a friendly, but it isn't like it doesn't have weaknesses. Yeah, you don't understand how the matchup works if you think Seed vs Taeja was a matter of 1-a. I hate when fucking idiots say this nonsense. I know you like to pretend that just because Taeja/MKP/Byun/other pro Terrans have amazing micro, it means that you, as a Terran player, have sick control compared to everyone you play on ladder, but you don't. I'm willing to bet your micro is god-awful, that you lose Ghosts before fights even begin, and that you overcommit on your Medivac push and then lose in the lategame. There is absolutely no issue in PvT lategame at the highest level. Terran players are continuing to win reliably, and the better player usually wins. Where the fuck is the problem?
Come on, we all know that this is not the place where people take ownership of their mistakes and weaknesses. When you lose games due to bad engagements, it’s because your army requires too much micro. If you win for by punishing greed with some solid early aggression, it’s because you’re are forced to cheese to win. If you lose because you mindless try to drop when your opponent scouts it and is prepared, it’s because you were forced to do damage.
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I loved it. Made a ton more sense than SC2 TvP. Spectator and beginner POV especially considered, and this will also be much less stressful to play in terms of army positioning since a split second of multitasking will not kill your army (you look away for less than 0.3 seconds and your army disappears will not happen in HOTS: Great Stuff, I love it. LOVE it.).
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On August 17 2012 03:49 johnny123 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 19:30 Velr wrote:
A rework of SC/BW like Valve is doing with Dota 2 is my wet dream (with some changes like MBS and stuff). its on sc2 already, its called Sc2 BW.Can be found in the custom map section.
thats not even close .
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EPT
