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On August 17 2012 03:30 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 08:59 Shiori wrote:On August 16 2012 08:19 Le BucheRON wrote:On August 16 2012 08:13 Shiori wrote:On August 16 2012 08:11 Ameisenmann wrote:On August 16 2012 08:01 Le BucheRON wrote:On August 16 2012 07:30 Lightspeaker wrote:
Ok. Read the whole thread. Simple question- what in the hell is Protoss supposed to build against Battle Hellions (BH), Warhounds (WH) and Vikings as a composition?
Let's review all of Protoss combat capable units and list things that can kill them in that.
Zealot - BH
Stalker - WH
Sentry - anything
Dark Templar - scan and anything
High Templar - anything. Might do good damage but mech beefier than bio
Archon - usable but unlikely to be super effective. Couple ghosts would shut down hardcore
Immortal - WH (missiles...)
Colossus - Viking and possibly WH
Phoenix - Vikings trade well and are reactored
Void ray - Viking
Tempest - Viking
So what's the plan? Mass archon and hope he forgets he can build ghosts? Pray you get enough storms off to kill mech (stronger than bio) and again forgets about ghosts? That game was obviously poor but even on paper there doesn't seem to be any gaps in that armour...it's even fairly mobile! How is this different than WOL? What were you hoping for? A huge gap in the Terran's composition that Protoss can exploit without answer? Well he's saying that this one composition basically counters everything protoss can do, which I think we could agree would be pretty boring, no? I don't see how this is the case in WOL. Yep. The thing about WoL is that TvP is less about countering compositions by a-moving other compositions into them and more about engagement/positioning/timing/micro. Immortals, Void Rays, Chargelots, and maybe Tempests seem like the only things that will be good against Terran mech, and all of those units are straight up a-move units. Ah I hear you. But TvP hasn't always been like this no? I remember some weird and wild times in the beta and first year that were more about composition. Oh the maurauders... But I guess I get your point. MMM was considered terran's catch all for quite a while (in all matchups). Maybe this will be the case for this mech comp until the meta carries it away. I dunno. The thing is that MMMVG still works fine in TvP, despite what a select few foreigners and scrubby ladder Terrans would tell you. There's no need to make mech strong except insofar as it needs to be "viable." But I mean, it still needs to be tactical and require some mechanics to pull off. It shouldn't just be an easier version of bio. That's silly. What? MMVG does not work fine against Protoss. If the Protoss simply plays defensively and turtles until he has his 200 deathball of HT/Colossus/Gateway/Etc. you're dead. Period. Taeja lost to Seed at IPL and various other P's because they just don't play dumb and just defend until they have their big ass army and 1 a-click him down when he makes a mistake. The new Mech is obviously very 1 a friendly, but it isn't like it doesn't have weaknesses.
He won mostly every other match he played vs. Protoss that day...
He lost 1 game. He won like 5 vs. Protoss -___-. He lost because he went up a ramp for a base race when his opponent's army was right next to his.
MMMVG works great. Taeja made an error vs. Seed is all.
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Northern Ireland23745 Posts
On August 17 2012 03:43 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 03:30 superstartran wrote:On August 16 2012 08:59 Shiori wrote:On August 16 2012 08:19 Le BucheRON wrote:On August 16 2012 08:13 Shiori wrote:On August 16 2012 08:11 Ameisenmann wrote:On August 16 2012 08:01 Le BucheRON wrote:On August 16 2012 07:30 Lightspeaker wrote:
Ok. Read the whole thread. Simple question- what in the hell is Protoss supposed to build against Battle Hellions (BH), Warhounds (WH) and Vikings as a composition?
Let's review all of Protoss combat capable units and list things that can kill them in that.
Zealot - BH
Stalker - WH
Sentry - anything
Dark Templar - scan and anything
High Templar - anything. Might do good damage but mech beefier than bio
Archon - usable but unlikely to be super effective. Couple ghosts would shut down hardcore
Immortal - WH (missiles...)
Colossus - Viking and possibly WH
Phoenix - Vikings trade well and are reactored
Void ray - Viking
Tempest - Viking
So what's the plan? Mass archon and hope he forgets he can build ghosts? Pray you get enough storms off to kill mech (stronger than bio) and again forgets about ghosts? That game was obviously poor but even on paper there doesn't seem to be any gaps in that armour...it's even fairly mobile! How is this different than WOL? What were you hoping for? A huge gap in the Terran's composition that Protoss can exploit without answer? Well he's saying that this one composition basically counters everything protoss can do, which I think we could agree would be pretty boring, no? I don't see how this is the case in WOL. Yep. The thing about WoL is that TvP is less about countering compositions by a-moving other compositions into them and more about engagement/positioning/timing/micro. Immortals, Void Rays, Chargelots, and maybe Tempests seem like the only things that will be good against Terran mech, and all of those units are straight up a-move units. Ah I hear you. But TvP hasn't always been like this no? I remember some weird and wild times in the beta and first year that were more about composition. Oh the maurauders... But I guess I get your point. MMM was considered terran's catch all for quite a while (in all matchups). Maybe this will be the case for this mech comp until the meta carries it away. I dunno. The thing is that MMMVG still works fine in TvP, despite what a select few foreigners and scrubby ladder Terrans would tell you. There's no need to make mech strong except insofar as it needs to be "viable." But I mean, it still needs to be tactical and require some mechanics to pull off. It shouldn't just be an easier version of bio. That's silly. What? MMVG does not work fine against Protoss. If the Protoss simply plays defensively and turtles until he has his 200 deathball of HT/Colossus/Gateway/Etc. you're dead. Period. Taeja lost to Seed at IPL and various other P's because they just don't play dumb and just defend until they have their big ass army and 1 a-click him down when he makes a mistake. The new Mech is obviously very 1 a friendly, but it isn't like it doesn't have weaknesses. Yeah, you don't understand how the matchup works if you think Seed vs Taeja was a matter of 1-a. I hate when fucking idiots say this nonsense. I know you like to pretend that just because Taeja/MKP/Byun/other pro Terrans have amazing micro, it means that you, as a Terran player, have sick control compared to everyone you play on ladder, but you don't. I'm willing to bet your micro is god-awful, that you lose Ghosts before fights even begin, and that you overcommit on your Medivac push and then lose in the lategame. There is absolutely no issue in PvT lategame at the highest level. Terran players are continuing to win reliably, and the better player usually wins. Where the fuck is the problem?
Exactly! PvT is actually one of the best matchups to watch these days at the highest level, for these reasons alone. There's a lot more engagements, more multitasking and more general back-and-forth than either TvZ or PvZ which are currently either all-ins or turtle fests.
Also, the real 'elephant in the room' with the current state of SC2 is how silly the Zerg race is presently, but yet people still act as if Protoss is the problem.
On August 17 2012 04:06 Kontys wrote:
I loved it. Made a ton more sense than SC2 TvP. Spectator and beginner POV especially considered, and this will also be much less stressful to play in terms of army positioning since a split second of multitasking will not kill your army (you look away for less than 0.3 seconds and your army disappears will not happen in HOTS: Great Stuff, I love it. LOVE it.).
I fail to see how the new mech will be better for spectators. On a player base, there's a balance to be had between making the Terran's job a little easier, and making it so they can A-move. They've skewed that balance.
If you don't like the difficulty, don't play Terran. It's part of why the race is good, both fun to play and fun to watch.
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Terran mech looks so much stronger than bio that bio will need a boost. Probably the best way to do that is to improve bio's mobility. Give the medivac a speed buff, either in the form of a static increase or an ability that consumes energy.
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On August 17 2012 04:27 Empirimancer wrote:
Terran mech looks so much stronger than bio that bio will need a boost. Probably the best way to do that is to improve bio's mobility. Give the medivac a speed buff, either in the form of a static increase or an ability that consumes energy.
Uh...or how about just make the mech less absurdly powerful or require this power to come only with a heavy control requirement?
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On August 17 2012 04:41 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 04:27 Empirimancer wrote:
Terran mech looks so much stronger than bio that bio will need a boost. Probably the best way to do that is to improve bio's mobility. Give the medivac a speed buff, either in the form of a static increase or an ability that consumes energy.
Uh...or how about just make the mech less absurdly powerful or require this power to come only with a heavy control requirement?
Well it's too hard to judge yet that mech is "absurdly powerful". And why is it that Protoss and Zerg has been able to have their army so powerful without much control requirement in WoL?
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On August 17 2012 04:48 Rokoz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 04:41 Shiori wrote:On August 17 2012 04:27 Empirimancer wrote:
Terran mech looks so much stronger than bio that bio will need a boost. Probably the best way to do that is to improve bio's mobility. Give the medivac a speed buff, either in the form of a static increase or an ability that consumes energy.
Uh...or how about just make the mech less absurdly powerful or require this power to come only with a heavy control requirement? Well it's too hard to judge yet that mech is "absurdly powerful". And why is it that Protoss and Zerg has been able to have their army so powerful without much control requirement in WoL?
I'm all for giving them more control requirement (although I'd say that the a-move tendency of high level Protoss is completely overstated, and the mechanics of Zerg players also underestimated, albeit less so than Toss).
This idea that Seed and DRG are a-moving just needs to end.
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On August 17 2012 04:48 Rokoz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 04:41 Shiori wrote:On August 17 2012 04:27 Empirimancer wrote:
Terran mech looks so much stronger than bio that bio will need a boost. Probably the best way to do that is to improve bio's mobility. Give the medivac a speed buff, either in the form of a static increase or an ability that consumes energy.
Uh...or how about just make the mech less absurdly powerful or require this power to come only with a heavy control requirement? Well it's too hard to judge yet that mech is "absurdly powerful". And why is it that Protoss and Zerg has been able to have their army so powerful without much control requirement in WoL?
Because obviously T should be the only ones forced to play 100x better than the other player. The P players coming in here screaming are mad because the roles will be likely reversed, and they will have to revert back to a BW style of play (which is not bad; the TvP match-up even with Mech was still heavily P favored at all levels except the pro level).
On August 17 2012 04:49 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 04:48 Rokoz wrote:On August 17 2012 04:41 Shiori wrote:On August 17 2012 04:27 Empirimancer wrote:
Terran mech looks so much stronger than bio that bio will need a boost. Probably the best way to do that is to improve bio's mobility. Give the medivac a speed buff, either in the form of a static increase or an ability that consumes energy.
Uh...or how about just make the mech less absurdly powerful or require this power to come only with a heavy control requirement? Well it's too hard to judge yet that mech is "absurdly powerful". And why is it that Protoss and Zerg has been able to have their army so powerful without much control requirement in WoL? I'm all for giving them more control requirement (although I'd say that the a-move tendency of high level Protoss is completely overstated, and the mechanics of Zerg players also underestimated, albeit less so than Toss). This idea that Seed and DRG are a-moving just needs to end.
Taeja made a bad mistake and Seed literally a-move'd him down. What incredibly micro did he do? What kind of amazing micro does DRG do when he catches a Terran/Protoss army with their pants on the ground with a full army fungal? Nothing. It's just simple A-Clicking for the most part. Sure, they are macroing behind their attack. That doesn't mean they are doing as much micro as a Terran player who is attempting to stim, split, focus fire, emp, etc. etc. because you cannot argue that either P or Z have to micro anywhere near as hard as a Terran late game; it's just how the game was designed.
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On August 17 2012 04:41 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 04:27 Empirimancer wrote:
Terran mech looks so much stronger than bio that bio will need a boost. Probably the best way to do that is to improve bio's mobility. Give the medivac a speed buff, either in the form of a static increase or an ability that consumes energy.
Uh...or how about just make the mech less absurdly powerful or require this power to come only with a heavy control requirement?
A lot of that will come down to how they will actually balance the warhound. From the Custom map, I'd say right now that it is straight up overpowered (might be wrong).
If however, the haywire is an essential part of the unit and dodgable by blink, if getting them on the right units to snipe them, instead of just purely have them balanced for being 1a is essential and if the mobility/tanking/damage/range ratio is OK, so that either it has to be kited or it is too slow to chase so that it has to fall back into tankradius again, it can quite make for a good unit.
Not to mention that I love the terrodrone... ahm... widow mine  (even if I think it's OP right now, but it's sooooo much fun and such a good mapcontrol principle with like a thousand little application when, where and how to use it)
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On August 17 2012 04:50 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 04:48 Rokoz wrote:On August 17 2012 04:41 Shiori wrote:On August 17 2012 04:27 Empirimancer wrote:
Terran mech looks so much stronger than bio that bio will need a boost. Probably the best way to do that is to improve bio's mobility. Give the medivac a speed buff, either in the form of a static increase or an ability that consumes energy.
Uh...or how about just make the mech less absurdly powerful or require this power to come only with a heavy control requirement? Well it's too hard to judge yet that mech is "absurdly powerful". And why is it that Protoss and Zerg has been able to have their army so powerful without much control requirement in WoL? Because obviously T should be the only ones forced to play 100x better than the other player. The P players coming in here screaming are mad because the roles will be likely reversed, and they will have to revert back to a BW style of play (which is not bad; the TvP match-up even with Mech was still heavily P favored at all levels except the pro level). Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 04:49 Shiori wrote:On August 17 2012 04:48 Rokoz wrote:On August 17 2012 04:41 Shiori wrote:On August 17 2012 04:27 Empirimancer wrote:
Terran mech looks so much stronger than bio that bio will need a boost. Probably the best way to do that is to improve bio's mobility. Give the medivac a speed buff, either in the form of a static increase or an ability that consumes energy.
Uh...or how about just make the mech less absurdly powerful or require this power to come only with a heavy control requirement? Well it's too hard to judge yet that mech is "absurdly powerful". And why is it that Protoss and Zerg has been able to have their army so powerful without much control requirement in WoL? I'm all for giving them more control requirement (although I'd say that the a-move tendency of high level Protoss is completely overstated, and the mechanics of Zerg players also underestimated, albeit less so than Toss). This idea that Seed and DRG are a-moving just needs to end. Taeja made a bad mistake and Seed literally a-move'd him down. What incredibly micro did he do? What kind of amazing micro does DRG do when he catches a Terran/Protoss army with their pants on the ground with a full army fungal? Nothing. It's just simple A-Clicking for the most part. Sure, they are macroing behind their attack. That doesn't mean they are doing as much micro as a Terran player who is attempting to stim, split, focus fire, emp, etc. etc. because you cannot argue that either P or Z have to micro anywhere near as hard as a Terran late game; it's just how the game was designed.
I don't think Z has to micro that much in TvZ outside of surrounds and engaging properly, but to think that PvT is a matter of Protoss just a-moving and hitting Storms is completely nonsense, and I'm not even going to entertain it because it's so incredibly stupid. DRG is a really good mechanical player, too. Just because TvZ right now is shit doesn't mean he didn't have what it took to micro ling/bane/muta when it was all the range, because he did.
And again, Seed vs Taeja had nothing to do with a-moving.
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Northern Ireland23745 Posts
On August 17 2012 04:50 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 04:48 Rokoz wrote:On August 17 2012 04:41 Shiori wrote:On August 17 2012 04:27 Empirimancer wrote:
Terran mech looks so much stronger than bio that bio will need a boost. Probably the best way to do that is to improve bio's mobility. Give the medivac a speed buff, either in the form of a static increase or an ability that consumes energy.
Uh...or how about just make the mech less absurdly powerful or require this power to come only with a heavy control requirement? Well it's too hard to judge yet that mech is "absurdly powerful". And why is it that Protoss and Zerg has been able to have their army so powerful without much control requirement in WoL? Because obviously T should be the only ones forced to play 100x better than the other player. The P players coming in here screaming are mad because the roles will be likely reversed, and they will have to revert back to a BW style of play (which is not bad; the TvP match-up even with Mech was still heavily P favored at all levels except the pro level). Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 04:49 Shiori wrote:On August 17 2012 04:48 Rokoz wrote:On August 17 2012 04:41 Shiori wrote:On August 17 2012 04:27 Empirimancer wrote:
Terran mech looks so much stronger than bio that bio will need a boost. Probably the best way to do that is to improve bio's mobility. Give the medivac a speed buff, either in the form of a static increase or an ability that consumes energy.
Uh...or how about just make the mech less absurdly powerful or require this power to come only with a heavy control requirement? Well it's too hard to judge yet that mech is "absurdly powerful". And why is it that Protoss and Zerg has been able to have their army so powerful without much control requirement in WoL? I'm all for giving them more control requirement (although I'd say that the a-move tendency of high level Protoss is completely overstated, and the mechanics of Zerg players also underestimated, albeit less so than Toss). This idea that Seed and DRG are a-moving just needs to end. Taeja made a bad mistake and Seed literally a-move'd him down. What incredibly micro did he do? What kind of amazing micro does DRG do when he catches a Terran/Protoss army with their pants on the ground with a full army fungal? Nothing. It's just simple A-Clicking for the most part. Sure, they are macroing behind their attack. That doesn't mean they are doing as much micro as a Terran player who is attempting to stim, split, focus fire, emp, etc. etc. because you cannot argue that either P or Z have to micro anywhere near as hard as a Terran late game; it's just how the game was designed.
Seed and top Korean PvTers are continually repositioning their armies, splitting templar and blinking in and out to snipe vikings. It's the stalker useage that in my view actually separates the brilliant from the merely good, and Seed is very good in this aspect.
Also @Shiori, maybe I've been awake too long but wasn't 100% sure what you meant by 'and the mechanics of Zerg players also underestimated, albeit less so than Toss'
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On August 17 2012 04:54 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 04:50 superstartran wrote:On August 17 2012 04:48 Rokoz wrote:On August 17 2012 04:41 Shiori wrote:On August 17 2012 04:27 Empirimancer wrote:
Terran mech looks so much stronger than bio that bio will need a boost. Probably the best way to do that is to improve bio's mobility. Give the medivac a speed buff, either in the form of a static increase or an ability that consumes energy.
Uh...or how about just make the mech less absurdly powerful or require this power to come only with a heavy control requirement? Well it's too hard to judge yet that mech is "absurdly powerful". And why is it that Protoss and Zerg has been able to have their army so powerful without much control requirement in WoL? Because obviously T should be the only ones forced to play 100x better than the other player. The P players coming in here screaming are mad because the roles will be likely reversed, and they will have to revert back to a BW style of play (which is not bad; the TvP match-up even with Mech was still heavily P favored at all levels except the pro level). On August 17 2012 04:49 Shiori wrote:On August 17 2012 04:48 Rokoz wrote:On August 17 2012 04:41 Shiori wrote:On August 17 2012 04:27 Empirimancer wrote:
Terran mech looks so much stronger than bio that bio will need a boost. Probably the best way to do that is to improve bio's mobility. Give the medivac a speed buff, either in the form of a static increase or an ability that consumes energy.
Uh...or how about just make the mech less absurdly powerful or require this power to come only with a heavy control requirement? Well it's too hard to judge yet that mech is "absurdly powerful". And why is it that Protoss and Zerg has been able to have their army so powerful without much control requirement in WoL? I'm all for giving them more control requirement (although I'd say that the a-move tendency of high level Protoss is completely overstated, and the mechanics of Zerg players also underestimated, albeit less so than Toss). This idea that Seed and DRG are a-moving just needs to end. Taeja made a bad mistake and Seed literally a-move'd him down. What incredibly micro did he do? What kind of amazing micro does DRG do when he catches a Terran/Protoss army with their pants on the ground with a full army fungal? Nothing. It's just simple A-Clicking for the most part. Sure, they are macroing behind their attack. That doesn't mean they are doing as much micro as a Terran player who is attempting to stim, split, focus fire, emp, etc. etc. because you cannot argue that either P or Z have to micro anywhere near as hard as a Terran late game; it's just how the game was designed. Seed and top Korean PvTers are continually repositioning their armies, splitting templar and blinking in and out to snipe vikings. It's the stalker useage that in my view actually separates the brilliant from the merely good, and Seed is very good in this aspect. Also @Shiori, maybe I've been awake too long but wasn't 100% sure what you meant by 'and the mechanics of Zerg players also underestimated, albeit less so than Toss'
People think Toss and Zerg are both a-moving morons. This is false, although it is true that Zerg players have the tendency to a-move more than Protoss just by nature of having units like the Roach or BL which require very limited micro. But in general, nobody at the top level is a-moving.
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Northern Ireland23745 Posts
On August 17 2012 05:01 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 04:54 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 17 2012 04:50 superstartran wrote:On August 17 2012 04:48 Rokoz wrote:On August 17 2012 04:41 Shiori wrote:On August 17 2012 04:27 Empirimancer wrote:
Terran mech looks so much stronger than bio that bio will need a boost. Probably the best way to do that is to improve bio's mobility. Give the medivac a speed buff, either in the form of a static increase or an ability that consumes energy.
Uh...or how about just make the mech less absurdly powerful or require this power to come only with a heavy control requirement? Well it's too hard to judge yet that mech is "absurdly powerful". And why is it that Protoss and Zerg has been able to have their army so powerful without much control requirement in WoL? Because obviously T should be the only ones forced to play 100x better than the other player. The P players coming in here screaming are mad because the roles will be likely reversed, and they will have to revert back to a BW style of play (which is not bad; the TvP match-up even with Mech was still heavily P favored at all levels except the pro level). On August 17 2012 04:49 Shiori wrote:On August 17 2012 04:48 Rokoz wrote:On August 17 2012 04:41 Shiori wrote:On August 17 2012 04:27 Empirimancer wrote:
Terran mech looks so much stronger than bio that bio will need a boost. Probably the best way to do that is to improve bio's mobility. Give the medivac a speed buff, either in the form of a static increase or an ability that consumes energy.
Uh...or how about just make the mech less absurdly powerful or require this power to come only with a heavy control requirement? Well it's too hard to judge yet that mech is "absurdly powerful". And why is it that Protoss and Zerg has been able to have their army so powerful without much control requirement in WoL? I'm all for giving them more control requirement (although I'd say that the a-move tendency of high level Protoss is completely overstated, and the mechanics of Zerg players also underestimated, albeit less so than Toss). This idea that Seed and DRG are a-moving just needs to end. Taeja made a bad mistake and Seed literally a-move'd him down. What incredibly micro did he do? What kind of amazing micro does DRG do when he catches a Terran/Protoss army with their pants on the ground with a full army fungal? Nothing. It's just simple A-Clicking for the most part. Sure, they are macroing behind their attack. That doesn't mean they are doing as much micro as a Terran player who is attempting to stim, split, focus fire, emp, etc. etc. because you cannot argue that either P or Z have to micro anywhere near as hard as a Terran late game; it's just how the game was designed. Seed and top Korean PvTers are continually repositioning their armies, splitting templar and blinking in and out to snipe vikings. It's the stalker useage that in my view actually separates the brilliant from the merely good, and Seed is very good in this aspect. Also @Shiori, maybe I've been awake too long but wasn't 100% sure what you meant by 'and the mechanics of Zerg players also underestimated, albeit less so than Toss' People think Toss and Zerg are both a-moving morons. This is false, although it is true that Zerg players have the tendency to a-move more than Protoss just by nature of having units like the Roach or BL which require very limited micro. But in general, nobody at the top level is a-moving.
Yeah that's a pretty good assessment, although I think also the mechanical side of Zerg is a bit overstated too, especially in the lategame where they're banking tons and just put spines everywhere in lieu of actually multitasking to defend drops
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On August 17 2012 03:30 superstartran wrote:
What?
MMVG does not work fine against Protoss. If the Protoss simply plays defensively and turtles until he has his 200 deathball of HT/Colossus/Gateway/Etc. you're dead. Period. Taeja lost to Seed at IPL and various other P's because they just don't play dumb and just defend until they have their big ass army and 1 a-click him down when he makes a mistake.
The new Mech is obviously very 1 a friendly, but it isn't like it doesn't have weaknesses.
No, just no. Please consider stopping to post such bullshit.
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On August 17 2012 05:03 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 05:01 Shiori wrote:On August 17 2012 04:54 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 17 2012 04:50 superstartran wrote:On August 17 2012 04:48 Rokoz wrote:On August 17 2012 04:41 Shiori wrote:On August 17 2012 04:27 Empirimancer wrote:
Terran mech looks so much stronger than bio that bio will need a boost. Probably the best way to do that is to improve bio's mobility. Give the medivac a speed buff, either in the form of a static increase or an ability that consumes energy.
Uh...or how about just make the mech less absurdly powerful or require this power to come only with a heavy control requirement? Well it's too hard to judge yet that mech is "absurdly powerful". And why is it that Protoss and Zerg has been able to have their army so powerful without much control requirement in WoL? Because obviously T should be the only ones forced to play 100x better than the other player. The P players coming in here screaming are mad because the roles will be likely reversed, and they will have to revert back to a BW style of play (which is not bad; the TvP match-up even with Mech was still heavily P favored at all levels except the pro level). On August 17 2012 04:49 Shiori wrote:On August 17 2012 04:48 Rokoz wrote:On August 17 2012 04:41 Shiori wrote:On August 17 2012 04:27 Empirimancer wrote:
Terran mech looks so much stronger than bio that bio will need a boost. Probably the best way to do that is to improve bio's mobility. Give the medivac a speed buff, either in the form of a static increase or an ability that consumes energy.
Uh...or how about just make the mech less absurdly powerful or require this power to come only with a heavy control requirement? Well it's too hard to judge yet that mech is "absurdly powerful". And why is it that Protoss and Zerg has been able to have their army so powerful without much control requirement in WoL? I'm all for giving them more control requirement (although I'd say that the a-move tendency of high level Protoss is completely overstated, and the mechanics of Zerg players also underestimated, albeit less so than Toss). This idea that Seed and DRG are a-moving just needs to end. Taeja made a bad mistake and Seed literally a-move'd him down. What incredibly micro did he do? What kind of amazing micro does DRG do when he catches a Terran/Protoss army with their pants on the ground with a full army fungal? Nothing. It's just simple A-Clicking for the most part. Sure, they are macroing behind their attack. That doesn't mean they are doing as much micro as a Terran player who is attempting to stim, split, focus fire, emp, etc. etc. because you cannot argue that either P or Z have to micro anywhere near as hard as a Terran late game; it's just how the game was designed. Seed and top Korean PvTers are continually repositioning their armies, splitting templar and blinking in and out to snipe vikings. It's the stalker useage that in my view actually separates the brilliant from the merely good, and Seed is very good in this aspect. Also @Shiori, maybe I've been awake too long but wasn't 100% sure what you meant by 'and the mechanics of Zerg players also underestimated, albeit less so than Toss' People think Toss and Zerg are both a-moving morons. This is false, although it is true that Zerg players have the tendency to a-move more than Protoss just by nature of having units like the Roach or BL which require very limited micro. But in general, nobody at the top level is a-moving. Yeah that's a pretty good assessment, although I think also the mechanical side of Zerg is a bit overstated too, especially in the lategame where they're banking tons and just put spines everywhere in lieu of actually multitasking to defend drops
well, the three clicks to rally a drop in aren't mechanically demanding either, so why should the defense be that hard?
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On August 17 2012 05:03 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 05:01 Shiori wrote:On August 17 2012 04:54 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 17 2012 04:50 superstartran wrote:On August 17 2012 04:48 Rokoz wrote:On August 17 2012 04:41 Shiori wrote:On August 17 2012 04:27 Empirimancer wrote:
Terran mech looks so much stronger than bio that bio will need a boost. Probably the best way to do that is to improve bio's mobility. Give the medivac a speed buff, either in the form of a static increase or an ability that consumes energy.
Uh...or how about just make the mech less absurdly powerful or require this power to come only with a heavy control requirement? Well it's too hard to judge yet that mech is "absurdly powerful". And why is it that Protoss and Zerg has been able to have their army so powerful without much control requirement in WoL? Because obviously T should be the only ones forced to play 100x better than the other player. The P players coming in here screaming are mad because the roles will be likely reversed, and they will have to revert back to a BW style of play (which is not bad; the TvP match-up even with Mech was still heavily P favored at all levels except the pro level). On August 17 2012 04:49 Shiori wrote:On August 17 2012 04:48 Rokoz wrote:On August 17 2012 04:41 Shiori wrote:On August 17 2012 04:27 Empirimancer wrote:
Terran mech looks so much stronger than bio that bio will need a boost. Probably the best way to do that is to improve bio's mobility. Give the medivac a speed buff, either in the form of a static increase or an ability that consumes energy.
Uh...or how about just make the mech less absurdly powerful or require this power to come only with a heavy control requirement? Well it's too hard to judge yet that mech is "absurdly powerful". And why is it that Protoss and Zerg has been able to have their army so powerful without much control requirement in WoL? I'm all for giving them more control requirement (although I'd say that the a-move tendency of high level Protoss is completely overstated, and the mechanics of Zerg players also underestimated, albeit less so than Toss). This idea that Seed and DRG are a-moving just needs to end. Taeja made a bad mistake and Seed literally a-move'd him down. What incredibly micro did he do? What kind of amazing micro does DRG do when he catches a Terran/Protoss army with their pants on the ground with a full army fungal? Nothing. It's just simple A-Clicking for the most part. Sure, they are macroing behind their attack. That doesn't mean they are doing as much micro as a Terran player who is attempting to stim, split, focus fire, emp, etc. etc. because you cannot argue that either P or Z have to micro anywhere near as hard as a Terran late game; it's just how the game was designed. Seed and top Korean PvTers are continually repositioning their armies, splitting templar and blinking in and out to snipe vikings. It's the stalker useage that in my view actually separates the brilliant from the merely good, and Seed is very good in this aspect. Also @Shiori, maybe I've been awake too long but wasn't 100% sure what you meant by 'and the mechanics of Zerg players also underestimated, albeit less so than Toss' People think Toss and Zerg are both a-moving morons. This is false, although it is true that Zerg players have the tendency to a-move more than Protoss just by nature of having units like the Roach or BL which require very limited micro. But in general, nobody at the top level is a-moving. Yeah that's a pretty good assessment, although I think also the mechanical side of Zerg is a bit overstated too, especially in the lategame where they're banking tons and just put spines everywhere in lieu of actually multitasking to defend drops
But you also have zergs that simply a-move their entire army to defend drops, that get more spines than necessary, that are unwilling to use run-by's, aren't active with their mutalisks and do almost as well as the mechanically talented zergs simply because as zerg you can be successful sitting back and letting your opponent come to you.
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Northern Ireland23745 Posts
On August 17 2012 05:19 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 05:03 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 17 2012 05:01 Shiori wrote:On August 17 2012 04:54 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 17 2012 04:50 superstartran wrote:On August 17 2012 04:48 Rokoz wrote:On August 17 2012 04:41 Shiori wrote:On August 17 2012 04:27 Empirimancer wrote:
Terran mech looks so much stronger than bio that bio will need a boost. Probably the best way to do that is to improve bio's mobility. Give the medivac a speed buff, either in the form of a static increase or an ability that consumes energy.
Uh...or how about just make the mech less absurdly powerful or require this power to come only with a heavy control requirement? Well it's too hard to judge yet that mech is "absurdly powerful". And why is it that Protoss and Zerg has been able to have their army so powerful without much control requirement in WoL? Because obviously T should be the only ones forced to play 100x better than the other player. The P players coming in here screaming are mad because the roles will be likely reversed, and they will have to revert back to a BW style of play (which is not bad; the TvP match-up even with Mech was still heavily P favored at all levels except the pro level). On August 17 2012 04:49 Shiori wrote:On August 17 2012 04:48 Rokoz wrote:On August 17 2012 04:41 Shiori wrote:On August 17 2012 04:27 Empirimancer wrote:
Terran mech looks so much stronger than bio that bio will need a boost. Probably the best way to do that is to improve bio's mobility. Give the medivac a speed buff, either in the form of a static increase or an ability that consumes energy.
Uh...or how about just make the mech less absurdly powerful or require this power to come only with a heavy control requirement? Well it's too hard to judge yet that mech is "absurdly powerful". And why is it that Protoss and Zerg has been able to have their army so powerful without much control requirement in WoL? I'm all for giving them more control requirement (although I'd say that the a-move tendency of high level Protoss is completely overstated, and the mechanics of Zerg players also underestimated, albeit less so than Toss). This idea that Seed and DRG are a-moving just needs to end. Taeja made a bad mistake and Seed literally a-move'd him down. What incredibly micro did he do? What kind of amazing micro does DRG do when he catches a Terran/Protoss army with their pants on the ground with a full army fungal? Nothing. It's just simple A-Clicking for the most part. Sure, they are macroing behind their attack. That doesn't mean they are doing as much micro as a Terran player who is attempting to stim, split, focus fire, emp, etc. etc. because you cannot argue that either P or Z have to micro anywhere near as hard as a Terran late game; it's just how the game was designed. Seed and top Korean PvTers are continually repositioning their armies, splitting templar and blinking in and out to snipe vikings. It's the stalker useage that in my view actually separates the brilliant from the merely good, and Seed is very good in this aspect. Also @Shiori, maybe I've been awake too long but wasn't 100% sure what you meant by 'and the mechanics of Zerg players also underestimated, albeit less so than Toss' People think Toss and Zerg are both a-moving morons. This is false, although it is true that Zerg players have the tendency to a-move more than Protoss just by nature of having units like the Roach or BL which require very limited micro. But in general, nobody at the top level is a-moving. Yeah that's a pretty good assessment, although I think also the mechanical side of Zerg is a bit overstated too, especially in the lategame where they're banking tons and just put spines everywhere in lieu of actually multitasking to defend drops But you also have zergs that simply a-move their entire army to defend drops, that get more spines than necessary, that are unwilling to use run-by's, aren't active with their mutalisks and do almost as well as the mechanically talented zergs simply because as zerg you can be successful sitting back and letting your opponent come to you.
See that's 100% what I'm talking about. I don't think even the most myopic anti-Zerg fanatic would have anything but respect for say, Donraegu's mechanical abilities.
However the other day, I saw JRecco bring back his entire army not once, but twice to deal with Major's single medivac drops. I saw yesterday Targa bring his entire army pretty much to deal with a single Zealot. No joke
Such poor play should be more easily punishable, but it really doesn't set Zerg that far back because Terran and Protoss have to move carefully and methodically across creep in case they get surrounded, Terran especially.
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On August 17 2012 05:24 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 05:19 Grumbels wrote:On August 17 2012 05:03 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 17 2012 05:01 Shiori wrote:On August 17 2012 04:54 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 17 2012 04:50 superstartran wrote:On August 17 2012 04:48 Rokoz wrote:On August 17 2012 04:41 Shiori wrote:On August 17 2012 04:27 Empirimancer wrote:
Terran mech looks so much stronger than bio that bio will need a boost. Probably the best way to do that is to improve bio's mobility. Give the medivac a speed buff, either in the form of a static increase or an ability that consumes energy.
Uh...or how about just make the mech less absurdly powerful or require this power to come only with a heavy control requirement? Well it's too hard to judge yet that mech is "absurdly powerful". And why is it that Protoss and Zerg has been able to have their army so powerful without much control requirement in WoL? Because obviously T should be the only ones forced to play 100x better than the other player. The P players coming in here screaming are mad because the roles will be likely reversed, and they will have to revert back to a BW style of play (which is not bad; the TvP match-up even with Mech was still heavily P favored at all levels except the pro level). On August 17 2012 04:49 Shiori wrote:On August 17 2012 04:48 Rokoz wrote:On August 17 2012 04:41 Shiori wrote:On August 17 2012 04:27 Empirimancer wrote:
Terran mech looks so much stronger than bio that bio will need a boost. Probably the best way to do that is to improve bio's mobility. Give the medivac a speed buff, either in the form of a static increase or an ability that consumes energy.
Uh...or how about just make the mech less absurdly powerful or require this power to come only with a heavy control requirement? Well it's too hard to judge yet that mech is "absurdly powerful". And why is it that Protoss and Zerg has been able to have their army so powerful without much control requirement in WoL? I'm all for giving them more control requirement (although I'd say that the a-move tendency of high level Protoss is completely overstated, and the mechanics of Zerg players also underestimated, albeit less so than Toss). This idea that Seed and DRG are a-moving just needs to end. Taeja made a bad mistake and Seed literally a-move'd him down. What incredibly micro did he do? What kind of amazing micro does DRG do when he catches a Terran/Protoss army with their pants on the ground with a full army fungal? Nothing. It's just simple A-Clicking for the most part. Sure, they are macroing behind their attack. That doesn't mean they are doing as much micro as a Terran player who is attempting to stim, split, focus fire, emp, etc. etc. because you cannot argue that either P or Z have to micro anywhere near as hard as a Terran late game; it's just how the game was designed. Seed and top Korean PvTers are continually repositioning their armies, splitting templar and blinking in and out to snipe vikings. It's the stalker useage that in my view actually separates the brilliant from the merely good, and Seed is very good in this aspect. Also @Shiori, maybe I've been awake too long but wasn't 100% sure what you meant by 'and the mechanics of Zerg players also underestimated, albeit less so than Toss' People think Toss and Zerg are both a-moving morons. This is false, although it is true that Zerg players have the tendency to a-move more than Protoss just by nature of having units like the Roach or BL which require very limited micro. But in general, nobody at the top level is a-moving. Yeah that's a pretty good assessment, although I think also the mechanical side of Zerg is a bit overstated too, especially in the lategame where they're banking tons and just put spines everywhere in lieu of actually multitasking to defend drops But you also have zergs that simply a-move their entire army to defend drops, that get more spines than necessary, that are unwilling to use run-by's, aren't active with their mutalisks and do almost as well as the mechanically talented zergs simply because as zerg you can be successful sitting back and letting your opponent come to you. See that's 100% what I'm talking about. I don't think even the most myopic anti-Zerg fanatic would have anything but respect for say, Donraegu's mechanical abilities. However the other day, I saw JRecco bring back his entire army not once, but twice to deal with Major's single medivac drops. I saw yesterday Targa bring his entire army pretty much to deal with a single Zealot. No joke Such poor play should be more easily punishable, but it really doesn't set Zerg that far back because Terran and Protoss have to move carefully and methodically across creep in case they get surrounded, Terran especially. To be honest, that gets punished more often lately. Not yet enough, but more than say half a year ago.
Edit: i'm talking about all races, not only zerg.
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Oh man, I seriously can not wait until the beta! I am going to relish in protoss tears as their 1a, 1 control group deathball marches into mine and mine wins, its going to be unbelievably sweet to hear the cry's of imba they have so long denied "oh you just need to micro better" I'll say as I steal their ladder points all the way to the bank.
Seriously the current design of the match up (TvP) is complete shit, the way they force terran players to play makes me so angry. Just be better than your oppoent and have better control and multitasking and its fine! But equal skill and all hell breaks loose. And goddamn imagine playing against a protoss that just sits and makes a deathball, its ludicrous when they have half a brain and use warp prisms like Terrans use medivacs.
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On August 17 2012 06:03 captainwaffles wrote:
Oh man, I seriously can not wait until the beta! I am going to relish in protoss tears as their 1a, 1 control group deathball marches into mine and mine wins, its going to be unbelievably sweet to hear the cry's of imba they have so long denied "oh you just need to micro better" I'll say as I steal their ladder points all the way to the bank.
Seriously the current design of the match up (TvP) is complete shit, the way they force terran players to play makes me so angry. Just be better than your oppoent and have better control and multitasking and its fine! But equal skill and all hell breaks loose. And goddamn imagine playing against a protoss that just sits and makes a deathball, its ludicrous when they have half a brain and use warp prisms like Terrans use medivacs.
I can't wait for all the terran players who finally get the 1-a army, try to use it against protoss and still lose anyways. Then we will finally be able to say "Maybe you were never that good at Starcraft 2".
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EPT
