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On August 17 2012 09:27 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 08:58 captainwaffles wrote:On August 17 2012 07:51 Shiori wrote:On August 17 2012 06:03 captainwaffles wrote:
Oh man, I seriously can not wait until the beta! I am going to relish in protoss tears as their 1a, 1 control group deathball marches into mine and mine wins, its going to be unbelievably sweet to hear the cry's of imba they have so long denied "oh you just need to micro better" I'll say as I steal their ladder points all the way to the bank.
Seriously the current design of the match up (TvP) is complete shit, the way they force terran players to play makes me so angry. Just be better than your oppoent and have better control and multitasking and its fine! But equal skill and all hell breaks loose. And goddamn imagine playing against a protoss that just sits and makes a deathball, its ludicrous when they have half a brain and use warp prisms like Terrans use medivacs. Hate to break this to you, but top Protoss players don't use 1 control group. As usual, you project your own failings in a matchup onto the entire metagame when, in fact, PvT is fine at a high level. Saying to use Warp Prisms like Medivacs just kinda shows you have no clue what you're talking about. Ah no, they use 2 control groups, thats one bigger than 1! Man I don't know what they were teaching me in debate class, I should just wave my hand and is everything is all good and then it will make me seem I'm smart and know what I'm talking about even though I said nothing of actual substance at all! TvP is fine at the top level, I never said it wasn't but at the masters and high master level blizzard themselves have said it was totally bonked (paraphrasing). Who cares? Zerg is pretty much impossible at a low level until you get injects and timings down, but that doesn't mean the race needs fixing. It means players need to get better. Over time, the average skill level increases. Getting Masters a year ago would probably put you in low Diamond today. Sooner or latter, low and mid Masters players will get over the hump of TvP micro, just as high Masters players did throughout the past several months. High Masters PvT is actually completely fine now, and the complaints for it have died down a tonne because people have just gotten better and gotten past that skill block that existed 8 months ago when Blizzard said what they said. And by the way: one key for Chargelots/Colossi/bulk of army, another for Stalkers, and another for Templar. As far as I know, Terran players don't use any more than that unless they're doing drops (which don't really need to be hotkeyed, but some players stylistically choose to).
Funny you bring up zerg at a low level, I've played Terran since BW and have been masters since season 1 so I never really knew what it was like in the precious metal leagues, my brother (who has had 0 RTS experience before sc2) recently started playing the game and plays Zerg. Went from Bronze to Gold in the past 2 seasons, and he is starting to play and beat plat players. Now I love my brother dearly but he is.... he still has much too learn, he can spawn larva pretty well but thats about it, and after 15 mins or so his macro falls apart, but never the less he is climbing the ladder with seemingly relative ease. The point here being its not impossible at all, when you play people relative to you zerg is pretty easy.
You mean that battle.net post that was posted in May? http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/4838104108#1 And that wasn't the post I was referring too, what I'm talking about was in a interview with Browder or Kim at one of the events they were just at, probably MLG Anaheim.
I actually agree with you when you say the match up is fine, Its just way easier to play Protoss in PvT, that doesn't mean Terran can't win, they just have to work harder for it.
Good for you using 3 groups, I see korean toss players do this but its a rarity among foreign tosses, for example today Feast was 1a-ing it all the way. I use 5 keys, hotkey drops, easier to bounce around with them on a key, tbh I think every Terran should.
Players should get better? or Blizzard should stop nerfing terran for 2 years straight which has gradually caused all of this to begin with (coupled with changes in maps).
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Northern Ireland27292 Posts
On August 17 2012 10:10 captainwaffles wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 09:27 Shiori wrote:On August 17 2012 08:58 captainwaffles wrote:On August 17 2012 07:51 Shiori wrote:On August 17 2012 06:03 captainwaffles wrote:
Oh man, I seriously can not wait until the beta! I am going to relish in protoss tears as their 1a, 1 control group deathball marches into mine and mine wins, its going to be unbelievably sweet to hear the cry's of imba they have so long denied "oh you just need to micro better" I'll say as I steal their ladder points all the way to the bank.
Seriously the current design of the match up (TvP) is complete shit, the way they force terran players to play makes me so angry. Just be better than your oppoent and have better control and multitasking and its fine! But equal skill and all hell breaks loose. And goddamn imagine playing against a protoss that just sits and makes a deathball, its ludicrous when they have half a brain and use warp prisms like Terrans use medivacs. Hate to break this to you, but top Protoss players don't use 1 control group. As usual, you project your own failings in a matchup onto the entire metagame when, in fact, PvT is fine at a high level. Saying to use Warp Prisms like Medivacs just kinda shows you have no clue what you're talking about. Ah no, they use 2 control groups, thats one bigger than 1! Man I don't know what they were teaching me in debate class, I should just wave my hand and is everything is all good and then it will make me seem I'm smart and know what I'm talking about even though I said nothing of actual substance at all! TvP is fine at the top level, I never said it wasn't but at the masters and high master level blizzard themselves have said it was totally bonked (paraphrasing). Who cares? Zerg is pretty much impossible at a low level until you get injects and timings down, but that doesn't mean the race needs fixing. It means players need to get better. Over time, the average skill level increases. Getting Masters a year ago would probably put you in low Diamond today. Sooner or latter, low and mid Masters players will get over the hump of TvP micro, just as high Masters players did throughout the past several months. High Masters PvT is actually completely fine now, and the complaints for it have died down a tonne because people have just gotten better and gotten past that skill block that existed 8 months ago when Blizzard said what they said. And by the way: one key for Chargelots/Colossi/bulk of army, another for Stalkers, and another for Templar. As far as I know, Terran players don't use any more than that unless they're doing drops (which don't really need to be hotkeyed, but some players stylistically choose to). Funny you bring up zerg at a low level, I've played Terran since BW and have been masters since season 1 so I never really knew what it was like in the precious metal leagues, my brother (who has had 0 RTS experience before sc2) recently started playing the game and plays Zerg. Went from Bronze to Gold in the past 2 seasons, and he is starting to play and beat plat players. Now I love my brother dearly but he is.... he still has much too learn, he can spawn larva pretty well but thats about it, and after 15 mins or so his macro falls apart, but never the less he is climbing the ladder with seemingly relative ease. The point here being its not impossible at all, when you play people relative to you zerg is pretty easy. You mean that battle.net post that was posted in May? http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/4838104108#1 And that wasn't the post I was referring too, what I'm talking about was in a interview with Browder or Kim at one of the events they were just at, probably MLG Anaheim. I actually agree with you when you say the match up is fine, Its just way easier to play Protoss in PvT, that doesn't mean Terran can't win, they just have to work harder for it. Good for you using 3 groups, I see korean toss players do this but its a rarity among foreign tosses, for example today Feast was 1a-ing it all the way. I use 5 keys, hotkey drops, easier to bounce around with them on a key, tbh I think every Terran should. Players should get better? or Blizzard should stop nerfing terran for 2 years straight which has gradually caused all of this to begin with (coupled with changes in maps).
Pretty much this. Zerg should never have gotten some of the buffs they've got in the last year for a start. Blizz should have waited for things to settle a bit after updating the map pool quite a bit, as I feel it was the poor map pool that was causing quite a lot of Zerg problems. Instead they've gotten used to a more favourable map pool, but with more tools than they had before.
Incidentally I feel the 'how many control groups' issue is overstated. A lot of the ex-BW players especially only use one or two, and the rest is boxing and selecting stuff on the fly in engagements, and those guys are pretty mechanically skillful!
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On August 17 2012 10:10 captainwaffles wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 09:27 Shiori wrote:On August 17 2012 08:58 captainwaffles wrote:On August 17 2012 07:51 Shiori wrote:On August 17 2012 06:03 captainwaffles wrote:
Oh man, I seriously can not wait until the beta! I am going to relish in protoss tears as their 1a, 1 control group deathball marches into mine and mine wins, its going to be unbelievably sweet to hear the cry's of imba they have so long denied "oh you just need to micro better" I'll say as I steal their ladder points all the way to the bank.
Seriously the current design of the match up (TvP) is complete shit, the way they force terran players to play makes me so angry. Just be better than your oppoent and have better control and multitasking and its fine! But equal skill and all hell breaks loose. And goddamn imagine playing against a protoss that just sits and makes a deathball, its ludicrous when they have half a brain and use warp prisms like Terrans use medivacs. Hate to break this to you, but top Protoss players don't use 1 control group. As usual, you project your own failings in a matchup onto the entire metagame when, in fact, PvT is fine at a high level. Saying to use Warp Prisms like Medivacs just kinda shows you have no clue what you're talking about. Ah no, they use 2 control groups, thats one bigger than 1! Man I don't know what they were teaching me in debate class, I should just wave my hand and is everything is all good and then it will make me seem I'm smart and know what I'm talking about even though I said nothing of actual substance at all! TvP is fine at the top level, I never said it wasn't but at the masters and high master level blizzard themselves have said it was totally bonked (paraphrasing). Who cares? Zerg is pretty much impossible at a low level until you get injects and timings down, but that doesn't mean the race needs fixing. It means players need to get better. Over time, the average skill level increases. Getting Masters a year ago would probably put you in low Diamond today. Sooner or latter, low and mid Masters players will get over the hump of TvP micro, just as high Masters players did throughout the past several months. High Masters PvT is actually completely fine now, and the complaints for it have died down a tonne because people have just gotten better and gotten past that skill block that existed 8 months ago when Blizzard said what they said. And by the way: one key for Chargelots/Colossi/bulk of army, another for Stalkers, and another for Templar. As far as I know, Terran players don't use any more than that unless they're doing drops (which don't really need to be hotkeyed, but some players stylistically choose to). Funny you bring up zerg at a low level, I've played Terran since BW and have been masters since season 1 so I never really knew what it was like in the precious metal leagues, my brother (who has had 0 RTS experience before sc2) recently started playing the game and plays Zerg. Went from Bronze to Gold in the past 2 seasons, and he is starting to play and beat plat players. Now I love my brother dearly but he is.... he still has much too learn, he can spawn larva pretty well but thats about it, and after 15 mins or so his macro falls apart, but never the less he is climbing the ladder with seemingly relative ease. The point here being its not impossible at all, when you play people relative to you zerg is pretty easy. You mean that battle.net post that was posted in May? http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/4838104108#1 And that wasn't the post I was referring too, what I'm talking about was in a interview with Browder or Kim at one of the events they were just at, probably MLG Anaheim. I actually agree with you when you say the match up is fine, Its just way easier to play Protoss in PvT, that doesn't mean Terran can't win, they just have to work harder for it. Good for you using 3 groups, I see korean toss players do this but its a rarity among foreign tosses, for example today Feast was 1a-ing it all the way. I use 5 keys, hotkey drops, easier to bounce around with them on a key, tbh I think every Terran should. Players should get better? or Blizzard should stop nerfing terran for 2 years straight which has gradually caused all of this to begin with (coupled with changes in maps).
I agree. I played Terran in BW but Protoss since the WoL beta, but Blizz went too far. Nothing against the Zerg, and I know at Diamond balance doesn't mean a whole lot since there's infinite room for improvement, but I feel Zerg has an extremely powerful late game, especially since Ghosts got nerfed to hell. At the current stage, it seems things will be a lot worse in HOTS. Vipers pulling crucial units, especially Colossi, is literally gamebreaking, just as one example.
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On August 17 2012 10:10 captainwaffles wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 09:27 Shiori wrote:On August 17 2012 08:58 captainwaffles wrote:On August 17 2012 07:51 Shiori wrote:On August 17 2012 06:03 captainwaffles wrote:
Oh man, I seriously can not wait until the beta! I am going to relish in protoss tears as their 1a, 1 control group deathball marches into mine and mine wins, its going to be unbelievably sweet to hear the cry's of imba they have so long denied "oh you just need to micro better" I'll say as I steal their ladder points all the way to the bank.
Seriously the current design of the match up (TvP) is complete shit, the way they force terran players to play makes me so angry. Just be better than your oppoent and have better control and multitasking and its fine! But equal skill and all hell breaks loose. And goddamn imagine playing against a protoss that just sits and makes a deathball, its ludicrous when they have half a brain and use warp prisms like Terrans use medivacs. Hate to break this to you, but top Protoss players don't use 1 control group. As usual, you project your own failings in a matchup onto the entire metagame when, in fact, PvT is fine at a high level. Saying to use Warp Prisms like Medivacs just kinda shows you have no clue what you're talking about. Ah no, they use 2 control groups, thats one bigger than 1! Man I don't know what they were teaching me in debate class, I should just wave my hand and is everything is all good and then it will make me seem I'm smart and know what I'm talking about even though I said nothing of actual substance at all! TvP is fine at the top level, I never said it wasn't but at the masters and high master level blizzard themselves have said it was totally bonked (paraphrasing). Who cares? Zerg is pretty much impossible at a low level until you get injects and timings down, but that doesn't mean the race needs fixing. It means players need to get better. Over time, the average skill level increases. Getting Masters a year ago would probably put you in low Diamond today. Sooner or latter, low and mid Masters players will get over the hump of TvP micro, just as high Masters players did throughout the past several months. High Masters PvT is actually completely fine now, and the complaints for it have died down a tonne because people have just gotten better and gotten past that skill block that existed 8 months ago when Blizzard said what they said. And by the way: one key for Chargelots/Colossi/bulk of army, another for Stalkers, and another for Templar. As far as I know, Terran players don't use any more than that unless they're doing drops (which don't really need to be hotkeyed, but some players stylistically choose to). Funny you bring up zerg at a low level, I've played Terran since BW and have been masters since season 1 so I never really knew what it was like in the precious metal leagues, my brother (who has had 0 RTS experience before sc2) recently started playing the game and plays Zerg. Went from Bronze to Gold in the past 2 seasons, and he is starting to play and beat plat players. Now I love my brother dearly but he is.... he still has much too learn, he can spawn larva pretty well but thats about it, and after 15 mins or so his macro falls apart, but never the less he is climbing the ladder with seemingly relative ease. The point here being its not impossible at all, when you play people relative to you zerg is pretty easy. You mean that battle.net post that was posted in May? http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/4838104108#1 And that wasn't the post I was referring too, what I'm talking about was in a interview with Browder or Kim at one of the events they were just at, probably MLG Anaheim. I actually agree with you when you say the match up is fine, Its just way easier to play Protoss in PvT, that doesn't mean Terran can't win, they just have to work harder for it. Good for you using 3 groups, I see korean toss players do this but its a rarity among foreign tosses, for example today Feast was 1a-ing it all the way. I use 5 keys, hotkey drops, easier to bounce around with them on a key, tbh I think every Terran should. Players should get better? or Blizzard should stop nerfing terran for 2 years straight which has gradually caused all of this to begin with (coupled with changes in maps).
I don't think it's necessarily "easier" for the Protoss depending on the map and how the matchup plays out, and depending on the level of play. On Cloud Kingdom in Diamond league? Probably easier for the Protoss. On Daybreak in mid Masters? I'd say it's about equal, but I truly believe that micro isn't actually the sole thing limiting these Terran players. They've taken what Blizzard said about needing to be aggressive way too seriously and have ended up basically all-inning with their first two Medivacs without realizing it, when, in fact, this isn't necessary, as the pro level metagame has shown us.
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I LOL'ed at the number of occurrences of the word "rocks" in the first 3mins of the video 
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so mothership core is like a queen for toss?
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
On August 18 2012 07:53 OneBaseKing wrote:
so mothership core is like a queen for toss?
One queen, one-way nydus, and energy transfusion
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Just watched the battle report and it didn't look all that good. The war hound and tempest are such poorly designed and thought out units. Wahound is simply marauder built from the factory. I don't know why they don't give us the Goliath instead of this pos unit.
I don't even know where to start on tempest. It is a regression from the carrier in every way possible. David Kim had five of these so called capital ships during his battle for the third, near the end of that report, yet was not able to take out a fully ground army without any AA,since all Vikings died, from sacking his ground army, 3rd and 2nd. 5 carriers would have taken out most of this army without a problem. I predict tempest being used even less than the carrier.
of 2012 should go back in time and take lessons from 1999 blizzard on game design.
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Can't wait for that Tempest micro ! I guess it just has to "look" cool these days. But i fear for Protoss micro late game, when you strole around with Colossi and Tempest.
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United Kingdom12049 Posts
I think I understand why the tempest splits up the deathball and why they designed it like that.
To counter the tempest you need to move the vikings from your terran death ball quite far away and try and flank the tempests. This means the toss needs to take stalkers over there too from their deathball and it'll split it up a bit. The range really makes the tempest really hard to defend as your entire army isn't sat under it all day every day.
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Edit: Posted in wrong thread. Fail.
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On August 19 2012 04:45 Qikz wrote:
I think I understand why the tempest splits up the deathball and why they designed it like that.
To counter the tempest you need to move the vikings from your terran death ball quite far away and try and flank the tempests. This means the toss needs to take stalkers over there too from their deathball and it'll split it up a bit. The range really makes the tempest really hard to defend as your entire army isn't sat under it all day every day.
Yeah, but why are you getting a Tempest to begin with? What's it going to do?
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On August 19 2012 05:06 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 04:45 Qikz wrote:
I think I understand why the tempest splits up the deathball and why they designed it like that.
To counter the tempest you need to move the vikings from your terran death ball quite far away and try and flank the tempests. This means the toss needs to take stalkers over there too from their deathball and it'll split it up a bit. The range really makes the tempest really hard to defend as your entire army isn't sat under it all day every day. Yeah, but why are you getting a Tempest to begin with? What's it going to do?
Break the seige line that doesn't exist in PvT at the moment! Of course!!!
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On August 19 2012 05:12 Figgy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 05:06 Shiori wrote:On August 19 2012 04:45 Qikz wrote:
I think I understand why the tempest splits up the deathball and why they designed it like that.
To counter the tempest you need to move the vikings from your terran death ball quite far away and try and flank the tempests. This means the toss needs to take stalkers over there too from their deathball and it'll split it up a bit. The range really makes the tempest really hard to defend as your entire army isn't sat under it all day every day. Yeah, but why are you getting a Tempest to begin with? What's it going to do? Break the seige line that doesn't exist in PvT at the moment! Of course!!!
Well, it's supposed to break the siegeline that exists in HotS, where mech is supposedly viable.
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On August 19 2012 05:12 Figgy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 05:06 Shiori wrote:On August 19 2012 04:45 Qikz wrote:
I think I understand why the tempest splits up the deathball and why they designed it like that.
To counter the tempest you need to move the vikings from your terran death ball quite far away and try and flank the tempests. This means the toss needs to take stalkers over there too from their deathball and it'll split it up a bit. The range really makes the tempest really hard to defend as your entire army isn't sat under it all day every day. Yeah, but why are you getting a Tempest to begin with? What's it going to do? Break the seige line that doesn't exist in PvT at the moment! Of course!!!
technically, if a terran decides to use warhounds and bhellions, they will end up with siege tanks as well as they compliment a mech army nicely.
so a Tempest would fit the role of fighting mech terrans, since zealots kinda suck vs battle hellions and can't break siege lines as they would on WoL.
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Mech is going to be super viable in HotS versus Protoss which is awesome. I feel like the Tempest needs to be a bit more fragile if it's going to have 22 range. If you can actually manage to get a group of Vikings close enough to attack then five of them should be able to kill one Tempest.
I'm still really uneasy about the Oracle. Entomb is insanely powerful. I'm already having nightmares of a world where Protoss players just make mass Oracles and a Terran can never mine again ever. Perhaps they can make it so that you can only have one oracle at a time, similar to the current mothership?
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On August 19 2012 05:17 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 05:12 Figgy wrote:On August 19 2012 05:06 Shiori wrote:On August 19 2012 04:45 Qikz wrote:
I think I understand why the tempest splits up the deathball and why they designed it like that.
To counter the tempest you need to move the vikings from your terran death ball quite far away and try and flank the tempests. This means the toss needs to take stalkers over there too from their deathball and it'll split it up a bit. The range really makes the tempest really hard to defend as your entire army isn't sat under it all day every day. Yeah, but why are you getting a Tempest to begin with? What's it going to do? Break the seige line that doesn't exist in PvT at the moment! Of course!!! Well, it's supposed to break the siegeline that exists in HotS, where mech is supposedly viable.
It seems more like mass Viking/BH/WH will be the uncounterable composition. They haven't really made Tanks attractive in PvT.
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On August 19 2012 05:20 Fix637 wrote:
Mech is going to be super viable in HotS versus Protoss which is awesome. I feel like the Tempest needs to be a bit more fragile if it's going to have 22 range. If you can actually manage to get a group of Vikings close enough to attack then five of them should be able to kill one Tempest.
I'm still really uneasy about the Oracle. Entomb is insanely powerful. I'm already having nightmares of a world where Protoss players just make mass Oracles and a Terran can never mine again ever. Perhaps they can make it so that you can only have one oracle at a time, similar to the current mothership?
that'd be ridiculous. Entomb is just a cheap form of harassment, similar to when you drop say two hellions and you have to take your works off mining.
if anything, planting two turrets near the mineral line and leaving a couple units should make entomb much weaker
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On August 19 2012 05:21 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 05:17 QTIP. wrote:On August 19 2012 05:12 Figgy wrote:On August 19 2012 05:06 Shiori wrote:On August 19 2012 04:45 Qikz wrote:
I think I understand why the tempest splits up the deathball and why they designed it like that.
To counter the tempest you need to move the vikings from your terran death ball quite far away and try and flank the tempests. This means the toss needs to take stalkers over there too from their deathball and it'll split it up a bit. The range really makes the tempest really hard to defend as your entire army isn't sat under it all day every day. Yeah, but why are you getting a Tempest to begin with? What's it going to do? Break the seige line that doesn't exist in PvT at the moment! Of course!!! Well, it's supposed to break the siegeline that exists in HotS, where mech is supposedly viable. It seems more like mass Viking/BH/WH will be the uncounterable composition. They haven't really made Tanks attractive in PvT.
The reason tanks aren't attractive in PvT right now is that zealots just screw it over. they are bulky and can use tank's splash damage to destroy terran's units. With battlehellion melting zealots and being bulky themselves, tanks are much more viable.
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EPT
