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Patch 1.5: Custom Game Use Old Balance Patch - Page 5

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Marcus420
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada1923 Posts
July 31 2012 11:35 GMT
#81
On July 31 2012 20:27 wcr.4fun wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 31 2012 17:15 Demizzle wrote:
On July 31 2012 16:56 Cutlery wrote:
I was thinking this to myself a few weeks back. Now that phoenix got the range upgrade, the change which let them attack while moving no longer follows logic reasoing? I don't remember the comment for that change, but do you really need range 6 AND firing while moving? I'm pretty sure this was mainly to deal with mutas -- now done by the range upgrade instead.


You know Mutas shit all over Phoenixes once the numbers get big enough, right? With or without the upgrade. So to take out moving shot would make them even more useless than before. Blink stalkers and storm are still the preferred method for dealing with mutas for a reason. Phoenixes just aren't good.


moving shot? Phoenixes don't have moving shot.

Yes they do?
desRow
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada2654 Posts
July 31 2012 11:36 GMT
#82
On July 31 2012 16:56 Cutlery wrote:
I was thinking this to myself a few weeks back. Now that phoenix got the range upgrade, the change which let them attack while moving no longer follows logic reasoing? I don't remember the comment for that change, but do you really need range 6 AND firing while moving? I'm pretty sure this was mainly to deal with mutas -- now done by the range upgrade instead.

Would make sense.. But might be a bug.

With micro you can still get them to fire while moving, can you not? Not necessarily a bad change, to demand micro, for a game like starcraft


no one gets that range upgrade.. BUT since phoenix are already garbage this hidden nerf makes them even more useless pvp hooray blizzard :D
http://twitch.tv/desrowfighting http://twitter.com/desrowfighting http://facebook.com/desrowfighting
apm66
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada943 Posts
July 31 2012 11:37 GMT
#83
1 extra apm should not hurt
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
dynwar7
Profile Joined May 2011
1983 Posts
July 31 2012 11:38 GMT
#84
StimmedProbe....if you are reading, please edit your original post....one guy up there said it is fine

"Just tested on Patch 1.5. Phoenix still fires whilst moving. Everyone calm down.

http://drop.sc/232098"
Regarding the imbalance, hilarious to see Zergs defending themselves....
eusoc
Profile Joined November 2011
Italy82 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-31 11:52:26
July 31 2012 11:39 GMT
#85
On July 31 2012 20:01 phodacbiet wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 31 2012 19:56 eusoc wrote:
On July 31 2012 19:14 dynwar7 wrote:
On July 31 2012 17:19 convention wrote:
On July 31 2012 16:56 Cutlery wrote:
I was thinking this to myself a few weeks back. Now that phoenix got the range upgrade, the change which let them attack while moving no longer follows logic reasoing? I don't remember the comment for that change, but do you really need range 6 AND firing while moving? I'm pretty sure this was mainly to deal with mutas -- now done by the range upgrade instead.

Would make sense.. But might be a bug.

With micro you can still get them to fire while moving, can you not? Not necessarily a bad change, to demand micro, for a game like starcraft

Without move and shoot on phoenix, mutas hard counter phoenix. With move and shoot but small range, unless a top pro player is controlling the phoenix: mutas hard counter phoenix. Only non-pros get the range upgrade, which allows lower level players to actually counter mutas with phoenix.

And are you really demanding micro for a fast moving, low HP glass-cannon that has to use an ability on each ground unit it attacks? Phoenix are one of the most, if not the most, micro intensive units in the game.



Uhh.

Ok, I agree with the other guy who said to try play marine & Marauder vs banelings infestor. Then you know what micro intensive means. truly, 1 second you look away, you look back and you only see banelings


You know, infestors don't move at 3.75 speed... nor banelings


Neither do they shoot while moving. You literally just have to right click phoenixes away from stuff and they do the rest themselves.


3.75=>muta speed

You just can't "right click phoenixes away", you must attack the muta ball, or it will become too big. I'm not saying it's difficult to micro phoenixes with range upgrade, but you must do it 90% of time vs mutas, and you have to keep macroing behind that, even going to build 2 pylons or warping a bunch of stalkers may ends up losing 1-2 phoenixes because mutas appear just in that 0.5 second.
Without range upgrade it's even more difficult, mutas just run away and turn to kill phoenxis, without perfect control you end up losing too much.

On the other hand, playing MM vs baneling/infestor is more difficult to actually micro, doing the split in the minimum time possible, but the macro is much easier(no CB to be done on stargate, no warp), just hotkeys, depots and mules.


On July 31 2012 20:25 dynwar7 wrote:
So? So what?

Phoenixs are super quick. Yes MM can stim, but on creep its tough. Really tough having to split vs banelings and infestors because if infestors can fungal a big clump, then a few banelings will finish that.

But I dont want to turn this into a TvP thread. I'll let other experienced terran players tell you.....if you dont think so, try playing MM vs bling infestors without tanks. If marines and marauders shoot while moving, of course I can just stim and move back


As i said just few lines above, phoenixes are fast... yet, you must keep them moving and constantly keep attaccking the mutas. I play all races at approximately the same level, and the most mirco-intensive unit(beside speed warp prism with immortals) I think sc2 have is phoenix. As I said the MM micro is limited in few seconds, you don't need to keep stimmed marines kiting lings all the time moving around them.
Diamond
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States10796 Posts
July 31 2012 11:40 GMT
#86
On July 31 2012 20:38 dynwar7 wrote:
StimmedProbe....if you are reading, please edit your original post....one guy up there said it is fine

"Just tested on Patch 1.5. Phoenix still fires whilst moving. Everyone calm down.

http://drop.sc/232098"


Cmon man read further.....
Ballistix Gaming Global Gaming/Esports Marketing Manager - twitter.com/esvdiamond
InfusedTT.DaZe
Profile Joined August 2010
Romania693 Posts
July 31 2012 11:42 GMT
#87
oh my god, brace yourselfs, mutas are coming
"Echoes of past events nudge the tiller on my present course, I await its reflection in the future"
dynwar7
Profile Joined May 2011
1983 Posts
July 31 2012 11:54 GMT
#88
On July 31 2012 20:39 eusoc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 31 2012 20:01 phodacbiet wrote:
On July 31 2012 19:56 eusoc wrote:
On July 31 2012 19:14 dynwar7 wrote:
On July 31 2012 17:19 convention wrote:
On July 31 2012 16:56 Cutlery wrote:
I was thinking this to myself a few weeks back. Now that phoenix got the range upgrade, the change which let them attack while moving no longer follows logic reasoing? I don't remember the comment for that change, but do you really need range 6 AND firing while moving? I'm pretty sure this was mainly to deal with mutas -- now done by the range upgrade instead.

Would make sense.. But might be a bug.

With micro you can still get them to fire while moving, can you not? Not necessarily a bad change, to demand micro, for a game like starcraft

Without move and shoot on phoenix, mutas hard counter phoenix. With move and shoot but small range, unless a top pro player is controlling the phoenix: mutas hard counter phoenix. Only non-pros get the range upgrade, which allows lower level players to actually counter mutas with phoenix.

And are you really demanding micro for a fast moving, low HP glass-cannon that has to use an ability on each ground unit it attacks? Phoenix are one of the most, if not the most, micro intensive units in the game.



Uhh.

Ok, I agree with the other guy who said to try play marine & Marauder vs banelings infestor. Then you know what micro intensive means. truly, 1 second you look away, you look back and you only see banelings


You know, infestors don't move at 3.75 speed... nor banelings


Neither do they shoot while moving. You literally just have to right click phoenixes away from stuff and they do the rest themselves.


3.75=>muta speed

You just can't "right click phoenixes away", you must attack the muta ball, or it will become too big. I'm not saying it's DIFFCULT to micro phoenixes with range upgrade, but you must do it 90% of time vs mutas, and you have to keep macroing behind that, even going to build 2 pylons or warping a bunch of stalkers may ends up losing 1-2 phoenixes because mutas appear just in that 0.5 second.
Without range upgrade it's even more difficult, mutas just run away and turn to kill phoenxis, without perfect control you end up losing too much.

On the other hand, playing MM vs baneling/infestor is more difficult to actually micro, doing the split in the minimum time possible, but the macro is much easier(no CB to be done on stargate, no warp), just hotkeys, depots and mules.


Show nested quote +
On July 31 2012 20:25 dynwar7 wrote:
So? So what?

Phoenixs are super quick. Yes MM can stim, but on creep its tough. Really tough having to split vs banelings and infestors because if infestors can fungal a big clump, then a few banelings will finish that.

But I dont want to turn this into a TvP thread. I'll let other experienced terran players tell you.....if you dont think so, try playing MM vs bling infestors without tanks. If marines and marauders shoot while moving, of course I can just stim and move back


As i said just few lines above, phoenixes are fast... yet, you must keep them moving and constantly keep attaccking the mutas. I play all races at approximately the same level, and the most mirco-intensive unit(beside speed warp prism with immortals) I think sc2 have is phoenix. As I said the MM micro is limited in few seconds, you don't need to keep stimmed marines kiting lings all the time moving around them.


Moving a unit that auto attacks is not micro intensive ok, full stop. At the same time MM are so vulnerable to fungal and blings. they get fungaled in a big clump, then say goodbye to that as banelings easily destroy those clumped units. Everybody knows MM vs bling infestor is super hard vs a decent zerg....no need to argue here to make your protoss look micro intensive....but as I said, you can say what you want, I dont want to turn this thread into this kind of discussion.

Peace.

On July 31 2012 20:40 Diamond wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 31 2012 20:38 dynwar7 wrote:
StimmedProbe....if you are reading, please edit your original post....one guy up there said it is fine

"Just tested on Patch 1.5. Phoenix still fires whilst moving. Everyone calm down.

http://drop.sc/232098"


Cmon man read further.....


Sorry, I cant find anything, what did I miss? O.o
Regarding the imbalance, hilarious to see Zergs defending themselves....
Province
Profile Joined June 2011
United Kingdom314 Posts
July 31 2012 11:54 GMT
#89
Perhaps a symptom of the mishmash of patches they tested 1.5 with?
IPS.Mardow.
Profile Joined November 2009
Germany713 Posts
July 31 2012 11:55 GMT
#90
But that phoenix "bug" is better because you actually have to micro a bit. We need more elements like those in sc2 imo x_x
ePdeLay
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Australia220 Posts
July 31 2012 11:58 GMT
#91
i hope this is left like this
Djagulingu
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Germany3605 Posts
July 31 2012 11:59 GMT
#92
I don't understand why they can shoot while moving anyway.
"windows bash is a steaming heap of shit" tofucake
JustPassingBy
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
10776 Posts
July 31 2012 12:01 GMT
#93
On July 31 2012 20:54 dynwar7 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 31 2012 20:40 Diamond wrote:
On July 31 2012 20:38 dynwar7 wrote:
StimmedProbe....if you are reading, please edit your original post....one guy up there said it is fine

"Just tested on Patch 1.5. Phoenix still fires whilst moving. Everyone calm down.

http://drop.sc/232098"


Cmon man read further.....


Sorry, I cant find anything, what did I miss? O.o


Apparently the bottom half of last page.
ZenithM
Profile Joined February 2011
France15952 Posts
July 31 2012 12:04 GMT
#94
On July 31 2012 20:59 Djagulingu wrote:
I don't understand why they can shoot while moving anyway.

It's Protoss man, they invented some fancy technological shit.
Thank god they don't have flying buildings yet.
Fragile51
Profile Joined October 2011
Netherlands15767 Posts
July 31 2012 12:05 GMT
#95
On July 31 2012 20:59 Djagulingu wrote:
I don't understand why they can shoot while moving anyway.


They used to not be able to shoot while moving back in WoL Beta, but people complained that they were absolutely useless like that. So instead of increasing range or damage or HP they decided to give it moving shot. Seriously, who the fuck even complains about the phoenix anyway?
eusoc
Profile Joined November 2011
Italy82 Posts
July 31 2012 12:09 GMT
#96
On July 31 2012 20:54 dynwar7 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 31 2012 20:39 eusoc wrote:
On July 31 2012 20:01 phodacbiet wrote:
On July 31 2012 19:56 eusoc wrote:
On July 31 2012 19:14 dynwar7 wrote:
On July 31 2012 17:19 convention wrote:
On July 31 2012 16:56 Cutlery wrote:
I was thinking this to myself a few weeks back. Now that phoenix got the range upgrade, the change which let them attack while moving no longer follows logic reasoing? I don't remember the comment for that change, but do you really need range 6 AND firing while moving? I'm pretty sure this was mainly to deal with mutas -- now done by the range upgrade instead.

Would make sense.. But might be a bug.

With micro you can still get them to fire while moving, can you not? Not necessarily a bad change, to demand micro, for a game like starcraft

Without move and shoot on phoenix, mutas hard counter phoenix. With move and shoot but small range, unless a top pro player is controlling the phoenix: mutas hard counter phoenix. Only non-pros get the range upgrade, which allows lower level players to actually counter mutas with phoenix.

And are you really demanding micro for a fast moving, low HP glass-cannon that has to use an ability on each ground unit it attacks? Phoenix are one of the most, if not the most, micro intensive units in the game.



Uhh.

Ok, I agree with the other guy who said to try play marine & Marauder vs banelings infestor. Then you know what micro intensive means. truly, 1 second you look away, you look back and you only see banelings


You know, infestors don't move at 3.75 speed... nor banelings


Neither do they shoot while moving. You literally just have to right click phoenixes away from stuff and they do the rest themselves.


3.75=>muta speed

You just can't "right click phoenixes away", you must attack the muta ball, or it will become too big. I'm not saying it's DIFFCULT to micro phoenixes with range upgrade, but you must do it 90% of time vs mutas, and you have to keep macroing behind that, even going to build 2 pylons or warping a bunch of stalkers may ends up losing 1-2 phoenixes because mutas appear just in that 0.5 second.
Without range upgrade it's even more difficult, mutas just run away and turn to kill phoenxis, without perfect control you end up losing too much.

On the other hand, playing MM vs baneling/infestor is more difficult to actually micro, doing the split in the minimum time possible, but the macro is much easier(no CB to be done on stargate, no warp), just hotkeys, depots and mules.


On July 31 2012 20:25 dynwar7 wrote:
So? So what?

Phoenixs are super quick. Yes MM can stim, but on creep its tough. Really tough having to split vs banelings and infestors because if infestors can fungal a big clump, then a few banelings will finish that.

But I dont want to turn this into a TvP thread. I'll let other experienced terran players tell you.....if you dont think so, try playing MM vs bling infestors without tanks. If marines and marauders shoot while moving, of course I can just stim and move back


As i said just few lines above, phoenixes are fast... yet, you must keep them moving and constantly keep attaccking the mutas. I play all races at approximately the same level, and the most mirco-intensive unit(beside speed warp prism with immortals) I think sc2 have is phoenix. As I said the MM micro is limited in few seconds, you don't need to keep stimmed marines kiting lings all the time moving around them.


Moving a unit that auto attacks is not micro intensive ok, full stop. At the same time MM are so vulnerable to fungal and blings. they get fungaled in a big clump, then say goodbye to that as banelings easily destroy those clumped units. Everybody knows MM vs bling infestor is super hard vs a decent zerg....no need to argue here to make your protoss look micro intensive....but as I said, you can say what you want, I dont want to turn this thread into this kind of discussion.

Peace.

Show nested quote +
On July 31 2012 20:40 Diamond wrote:
On July 31 2012 20:38 dynwar7 wrote:
StimmedProbe....if you are reading, please edit your original post....one guy up there said it is fine

"Just tested on Patch 1.5. Phoenix still fires whilst moving. Everyone calm down.

http://drop.sc/232098"


Cmon man read further.....


Sorry, I cant find anything, what did I miss? O.o


Moving a unit that auto attacks into a +1 range advantage, that costs 150/100 to counter a 100/100 unit, producing it one at a time while the mutas get directly how many as you can afford, wiht 0.5 seconds of inadvertence that maybe cost u the whole game is microintensive. As I said I play every race at the same level, can you please TRY a PvZ going phoenixes to counter mutas? Guess you never even tried.
lindn
Profile Joined July 2010
Sweden833 Posts
July 31 2012 12:10 GMT
#97
On July 31 2012 20:37 apm66 wrote:
1 extra apm should not hurt

Yes it should. There's a reason why blizzard gave the phoenix moving shot back in beta.
ODKStevez
Profile Joined February 2011
Ireland1225 Posts
July 31 2012 12:14 GMT
#98
Ugh, that sucks, I hope they fix this.
Luppa <3
-Celestial-
Profile Joined September 2011
United Kingdom3867 Posts
July 31 2012 12:28 GMT
#99
On July 31 2012 20:54 dynwar7 wrote:

Moving a unit that auto attacks is not micro intensive ok, full stop. At the same time MM are so vulnerable to fungal and blings. they get fungaled in a big clump, then say goodbye to that as banelings easily destroy those clumped units. Everybody knows MM vs bling infestor is super hard vs a decent zerg....no need to argue here to make your protoss look micro intensive....but as I said, you can say what you want, I dont want to turn this thread into this kind of discussion.

Peace.


Try doing it for an entire game straight whilst simultaneously macroing, building a ground army, taking expansions, etc etc.

You don't actually have to continuously dance MM around banelings and infestors for minutes at a time. The fight is over one way or the other in a few seconds. In terms of concentrated burst APM it may be higher, but you don't need the same endurance as you do for Phoenix not to die to...well...everything.

Phoenix are micro-intensive in that they take up massive amounts of your attention and time to use. They're not micro-intensive in terms of pure burst APM.
"Protoss simultaneously feels unbeatably strong and unwinnably weak." - kcdc
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
July 31 2012 12:43 GMT
#100
Phoenix acceleration is crap to make up for the fact that they can move and shoot. That is why you have to constantly mirco them to make sure they don’t stop moving and we see mutas pick off single phoenix and run away. It is not a measure of precise control, but active control. Unless you figure out some safe space you can put them on patrol, you can’t warp in while using them.

Regardless, it is likely a bug and can be fixed. People arguing that about balance are just looking for an excuse to whine.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
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