MOD EDIT: There are serious problems with custom games at the moment. The maps seem to be using balance data from some pre-beta patch. Phoenixes don't shoot while moving, Thors are super large, Roaches are 1 supply.. etc.
Just played a game with my friend and noticed that phoenixes no longer attack while moving. Unless this is some weird stealth nerf to protoss, I am 100% sure this is a bug and it needs to be addressed immediately by blizzard.
Edit: Since most ppl don't have the the 1.5patch I'll upload a video.
On August 01 2012 01:53 Antoine wrote: I tried this myself, and on Cloud Kingdom LE (uploaded by Blizzard), it worked normally. On Crux Whirlwind (not uploaded by Blizzard), it worked like in the OP (that is to say, no gliding shot). Sounds like custom mappers might have to make a change in their triggers with the patch.
I was thinking this to myself a few weeks back. Now that phoenix got the range upgrade, the change which let them attack while moving no longer follows logic reasoing? I don't remember the comment for that change, but do you really need range 6 AND firing while moving? I'm pretty sure this was mainly to deal with mutas -- now done by the range upgrade instead.
Would make sense.. But might be a bug.
With micro you can still get them to fire while moving, can you not? Not necessarily a bad change, to demand micro, for a game like starcraft
We haven't seen an "age of phoenix domination" affecting every P game, so I don't think this is an intended nerf. In fact we barely see phoenixes, so I'll go with bug..
Sounds like there is/was a problem to activate multiplayer balance (that info is stored in its own archive file). Enjoy version 1.0 and warp in your storms as long as you can.
I guess it was a mistake leave out all balance changes on the beta realm. Or they just forgot to include it in the release (after the beta).
Now that you mention it, warpgate timing in that particular game is 140 seconds as opposed to the 160 IIRC, and that observers are 50/100 as opposed to 25/75 nowadays.
The balance was also weird in custom games in the 1.5 Beta, but only because the streaming version of the game had a strange merge with previous patches of the game, thus resulting in a bunch of random balance values from all over SC2's history, including from the Beta.
I think a complete download should fix it in custom games, and maybe it might not even be an issue on ladder. Hopefully, tournament organizers won't be playing the game on a streaming, unfinished client.
On July 31 2012 16:56 Cutlery wrote: I was thinking this to myself a few weeks back. Now that phoenix got the range upgrade, the change which let them attack while moving no longer follows logic reasoing? I don't remember the comment for that change, but do you really need range 6 AND firing while moving? I'm pretty sure this was mainly to deal with mutas -- now done by the range upgrade instead.
You know Mutas shit all over Phoenixes once the numbers get big enough, right? With or without the upgrade. So to take out moving shot would make them even more useless than before. Blink stalkers and storm are still the preferred method for dealing with mutas for a reason. Phoenixes just aren't good.
On July 31 2012 16:56 Cutlery wrote: I was thinking this to myself a few weeks back. Now that phoenix got the range upgrade, the change which let them attack while moving no longer follows logic reasoing? I don't remember the comment for that change, but do you really need range 6 AND firing while moving? I'm pretty sure this was mainly to deal with mutas -- now done by the range upgrade instead.
Would make sense.. But might be a bug.
With micro you can still get them to fire while moving, can you not? Not necessarily a bad change, to demand micro, for a game like starcraft
Without move and shoot on phoenix, mutas hard counter phoenix. With move and shoot but small range, unless a top pro player is controlling the phoenix: mutas hard counter phoenix. Only non-pros get the range upgrade, which allows lower level players to actually counter mutas with phoenix.
And are you really demanding micro for a fast moving, low HP glass-cannon that has to use an ability on each ground unit it attacks? Phoenix are one of the most, if not the most, micro intensive units in the game.
On July 31 2012 16:56 Cutlery wrote: I was thinking this to myself a few weeks back. Now that phoenix got the range upgrade, the change which let them attack while moving no longer follows logic reasoing? I don't remember the comment for that change, but do you really need range 6 AND firing while moving? I'm pretty sure this was mainly to deal with mutas -- now done by the range upgrade instead.
You know Mutas shit all over Phoenixes once the numbers get big enough, right? With or without the upgrade. So to take out moving shot would make them even more useless than before. Blink stalkers and storm are still the preferred method for dealing with mutas for a reason. Phoenixes just aren't good.
This is a huge change that allows a Phoenix to dance around Mutalisks and other air units and attack them while moving. Phoenix always did hard-counter Mutalisks, but now even a very small number of Phoenix can challenge a very large number of Mutalisks so long as they are willing to attack and move away. Use your Phoenix to keep out of the Mutalisk attack range while firing yourself and you can do a lot of damage to a pack of Mutalisks.
..It's a numbers and micro thing. phoenixes should be able to shit all over mutas. But if you are very outnumbered and don't control them properly, the phoenixes are a complete waste. I still think range 6 and fire while moving is now a very strange combination, that I'm not surprised if blizzard is questioning.
Yeah odd stuff has happened before in Custom Games after a new patch. Perhaps redownloading the maps works. Try clearing all Battle.net cache and then play it again (remove C:\ProgramData\Blizzard Entertainment\Battle.net\ @ Win7).
On July 31 2012 17:26 phodacbiet wrote: You do know beta patch is like 2 patches behind right? Because they arent testing balance in beta, they are testing the bnet features.
This is about the 1.5 patch on SEA, the final one not the beta one.
On July 31 2012 17:26 dani` wrote: Yeah odd stuff has happened before in Custom Games after a new patch. Perhaps redownloading the maps works. Try clearing all Battle.net cache and then play it again (remove C:\ProgramData\Blizzard Entertainment\Battle.net\ @ Win7).
On July 31 2012 17:26 phodacbiet wrote: You do know beta patch is like 2 patches behind right? Because they arent testing balance in beta, they are testing the bnet features.
This is about the 1.5 patch on SEA, the final one not the beta one.
Ah in that case its probably just blizz being blizz.
On July 31 2012 16:56 Cutlery wrote: I was thinking this to myself a few weeks back. Now that phoenix got the range upgrade, the change which let them attack while moving no longer follows logic reasoing? I don't remember the comment for that change, but do you really need range 6 AND firing while moving? I'm pretty sure this was mainly to deal with mutas -- now done by the range upgrade instead.
You know Mutas shit all over Phoenixes once the numbers get big enough, right? With or without the upgrade. So to take out moving shot would make them even more useless than before. Blink stalkers and storm are still the preferred method for dealing with mutas for a reason. Phoenixes just aren't good.
This is a huge change that allows a Phoenix to dance around Mutalisks and other air units and attack them while moving. Phoenix always did hard-counter Mutalisks, but now even a very small number of Phoenix can challenge a very large number of Mutalisks so long as they are willing to attack and move away. Use your Phoenix to keep out of the Mutalisk attack range while firing yourself and you can do a lot of damage to a pack of Mutalisks.
..It's a numbers and micro thing. phoenixes should be able to shit all over mutas. But if you are very outnumbered and don't control them properly, the phoenixes are a complete waste. I still think range 6 and fire while moving is now a very strange combination, that I'm not surprised if blizzard is questioning.
I can see where you're coming from, range 6 with moving shot seems indeed a bit redundant. But problem is, they don't have the fleet beacon (!) upgrade by default. Range 4 phoenix without moving shot is pitifully bad.
On July 31 2012 16:56 Cutlery wrote: I was thinking this to myself a few weeks back. Now that phoenix got the range upgrade, the change which let them attack while moving no longer follows logic reasoing? I don't remember the comment for that change, but do you really need range 6 AND firing while moving? I'm pretty sure this was mainly to deal with mutas -- now done by the range upgrade instead.
Would make sense.. But might be a bug.
With micro you can still get them to fire while moving, can you not? Not necessarily a bad change, to demand micro, for a game like starcraft
Without move and shoot on phoenix, mutas hard counter phoenix. With move and shoot but small range, unless a top pro player is controlling the phoenix: mutas hard counter phoenix. Only non-pros get the range upgrade, which allows lower level players to actually counter mutas with phoenix.
And are you really demanding micro for a fast moving, low HP glass-cannon that has to use an ability on each ground unit it attacks? Phoenix are one of the most, if not the most, micro intensive units in the game.
Not sure your first paragraph isn't contradicting itself. And yes, hitting S every second for some micro wouldn't be bad considering that it's starcraft. They won't deccelerate enough to be caught by the mutas. I can understand that their speed make them a difficult tool, but it also gives them their great potential.
On July 31 2012 16:56 Cutlery wrote: I was thinking this to myself a few weeks back. Now that phoenix got the range upgrade, the change which let them attack while moving no longer follows logic reasoing? I don't remember the comment for that change, but do you really need range 6 AND firing while moving? I'm pretty sure this was mainly to deal with mutas -- now done by the range upgrade instead.
You know Mutas shit all over Phoenixes once the numbers get big enough, right? With or without the upgrade. So to take out moving shot would make them even more useless than before. Blink stalkers and storm are still the preferred method for dealing with mutas for a reason. Phoenixes just aren't good.
This is a huge change that allows a Phoenix to dance around Mutalisks and other air units and attack them while moving. Phoenix always did hard-counter Mutalisks, but now even a very small number of Phoenix can challenge a very large number of Mutalisks so long as they are willing to attack and move away. Use your Phoenix to keep out of the Mutalisk attack range while firing yourself and you can do a lot of damage to a pack of Mutalisks.
..It's a numbers and micro thing. phoenixes should be able to shit all over mutas. But if you are very outnumbered and don't control them properly, the phoenixes are a complete waste. I still think range 6 and fire while moving is now a very strange combination, that I'm not surprised if blizzard is questioning.
I can see where you're coming from, range 6 with moving shot seems indeed a bit redundant. But problem is, they don't have the fleet beacon (!) upgrade by default. Range 4 phoenix without moving shot is pitifully bad.
If someone wants to mass mutas they can still get a few corruptors to complement their air army.
On July 31 2012 16:56 Cutlery wrote: I was thinking this to myself a few weeks back. Now that phoenix got the range upgrade, the change which let them attack while moving no longer follows logic reasoing? I don't remember the comment for that change, but do you really need range 6 AND firing while moving? I'm pretty sure this was mainly to deal with mutas -- now done by the range upgrade instead.
You know Mutas shit all over Phoenixes once the numbers get big enough, right? With or without the upgrade. So to take out moving shot would make them even more useless than before. Blink stalkers and storm are still the preferred method for dealing with mutas for a reason. Phoenixes just aren't good.
This is a huge change that allows a Phoenix to dance around Mutalisks and other air units and attack them while moving. Phoenix always did hard-counter Mutalisks, but now even a very small number of Phoenix can challenge a very large number of Mutalisks so long as they are willing to attack and move away. Use your Phoenix to keep out of the Mutalisk attack range while firing yourself and you can do a lot of damage to a pack of Mutalisks.
..It's a numbers and micro thing. phoenixes should be able to shit all over mutas. But if you are very outnumbered and don't control them properly, the phoenixes are a complete waste. I still think range 6 and fire while moving is now a very strange combination, that I'm not surprised if blizzard is questioning.
I can see where you're coming from, range 6 with moving shot seems indeed a bit redundant. But problem is, they don't have the fleet beacon (!) upgrade by default. Range 4 phoenix without moving shot is pitifully bad.
If someone wants to mass mutas they can still get a few corruptors to complement their air army.
Hmm, yeah I agree, phoenixes are perfectly fine as they are. I just wanted to say that even if you assumed that moving shot with range 6 is too much, range 4 without it certainly makes for one of the worst units in the game (worse than the hydra actually :D).
I hope it's just what was already theorized in this thread: namely, that it's an issue with patch streaming. I wouldn't be surprised, the patch streaming seems like a highly complicated bit of coding and some bugs with it should be expected.
On July 31 2012 16:56 Cutlery wrote: I was thinking this to myself a few weeks back. Now that phoenix got the range upgrade, the change which let them attack while moving no longer follows logic reasoing? I don't remember the comment for that change, but do you really need range 6 AND firing while moving? I'm pretty sure this was mainly to deal with mutas -- now done by the range upgrade instead.
Would make sense.. But might be a bug.
With micro you can still get them to fire while moving, can you not? Not necessarily a bad change, to demand micro, for a game like starcraft
Without move and shoot on phoenix, mutas hard counter phoenix. With move and shoot but small range, unless a top pro player is controlling the phoenix: mutas hard counter phoenix. Only non-pros get the range upgrade, which allows lower level players to actually counter mutas with phoenix.
And are you really demanding micro for a fast moving, low HP glass-cannon that has to use an ability on each ground unit it attacks? Phoenix are one of the most, if not the most, micro intensive units in the game.
Try play Marine & Marauder against Baneling & Infestor if you really want to know what does 'micro intensive' means
On July 31 2012 16:56 Cutlery wrote: I was thinking this to myself a few weeks back. Now that phoenix got the range upgrade, the change which let them attack while moving no longer follows logic reasoing? I don't remember the comment for that change, but do you really need range 6 AND firing while moving? I'm pretty sure this was mainly to deal with mutas -- now done by the range upgrade instead.
Would make sense.. But might be a bug.
With micro you can still get them to fire while moving, can you not? Not necessarily a bad change, to demand micro, for a game like starcraft
Without move and shoot on phoenix, mutas hard counter phoenix. With move and shoot but small range, unless a top pro player is controlling the phoenix: mutas hard counter phoenix. Only non-pros get the range upgrade, which allows lower level players to actually counter mutas with phoenix.
And are you really demanding micro for a fast moving, low HP glass-cannon that has to use an ability on each ground unit it attacks? Phoenix are one of the most, if not the most, micro intensive units in the game.
Im pretty sure right clicking while the phoenixes shoot by themselves is very hard =)
On July 31 2012 16:56 Cutlery wrote: I was thinking this to myself a few weeks back. Now that phoenix got the range upgrade, the change which let them attack while moving no longer follows logic reasoing? I don't remember the comment for that change, but do you really need range 6 AND firing while moving? I'm pretty sure this was mainly to deal with mutas -- now done by the range upgrade instead.
Would make sense.. But might be a bug.
With micro you can still get them to fire while moving, can you not? Not necessarily a bad change, to demand micro, for a game like starcraft
Without move and shoot on phoenix, mutas hard counter phoenix. With move and shoot but small range, unless a top pro player is controlling the phoenix: mutas hard counter phoenix. Only non-pros get the range upgrade, which allows lower level players to actually counter mutas with phoenix.
And are you really demanding micro for a fast moving, low HP glass-cannon that has to use an ability on each ground unit it attacks? Phoenix are one of the most, if not the most, micro intensive units in the game.
Im pretty sure right clicking while the phoenixes shoot by themselves is very hard =)
I'm sure he meant that it's the unit that requires the most attention in the game. Basically, if you want phoenixes to do anything, from harassing to defending against mutas, you have to look at them and control them. Even mutas, you park them on a mineral line and let them do their job, with a bio drop you stim one time, A-move and do something else,or with DTs you queue a bunch of workers or just a-move the mineral line or a building, you look at the minimap to see when you have to retreat and that's about it. If you're not a top class player this is probably enough and will get some sort of damage done even if it's not optimal (no target fire yadayada). With phoenixes, you have to pick up a unit with graviton beam each time you want to get a kill, you have to not pick up too many of them or else you take too much time killing shit, and they don't attack ground so can't even defend themselves. Against mutas, you just have to right click like a madman without doing anything else, or else you lose everything.
So sure, their micro is not hard, in a micro tournament context, but we're looking at a real game, where you have to do like 3 things per second...
A world in which you only have a half range more and are faster with no ability to stack. Its so hard that you cant really kite more than 10 muta and have it not be futile. Ofc with range 6 its easy. Until they make corruptors.
Well when the beta for 1.5 first came out it also had similiar issues which they patched quiet quickly. I guess when you change the entire interface shit can go wrong, I wouldn't be too worried.
On July 31 2012 16:56 Cutlery wrote: I was thinking this to myself a few weeks back. Now that phoenix got the range upgrade, the change which let them attack while moving no longer follows logic reasoing? I don't remember the comment for that change, but do you really need range 6 AND firing while moving? I'm pretty sure this was mainly to deal with mutas -- now done by the range upgrade instead.
Would make sense.. But might be a bug.
With micro you can still get them to fire while moving, can you not? Not necessarily a bad change, to demand micro, for a game like starcraft
I think I have seen that upgrade like 3 times out of hundreds of PvZs I've seen
It can't stay the way it is because even with micro it will do about half the damage by not being able to attack while chasing, but instead having to stop each time it attacks. So I am sure it's a bug that will be fixed.
On July 31 2012 16:56 Cutlery wrote: I was thinking this to myself a few weeks back. Now that phoenix got the range upgrade, the change which let them attack while moving no longer follows logic reasoing? I don't remember the comment for that change, but do you really need range 6 AND firing while moving? I'm pretty sure this was mainly to deal with mutas -- now done by the range upgrade instead.
Would make sense.. But might be a bug.
With micro you can still get them to fire while moving, can you not? Not necessarily a bad change, to demand micro, for a game like starcraft
Without move and shoot on phoenix, mutas hard counter phoenix. With move and shoot but small range, unless a top pro player is controlling the phoenix: mutas hard counter phoenix. Only non-pros get the range upgrade, which allows lower level players to actually counter mutas with phoenix.
And are you really demanding micro for a fast moving, low HP glass-cannon that has to use an ability on each ground unit it attacks? Phoenix are one of the most, if not the most, micro intensive units in the game.
hard counter eh? do you even know what that means?
On July 31 2012 17:14 eviltomahawk wrote: The balance was also weird in custom games in the 1.5 Beta, but only because the streaming version of the game had a strange merge with previous patches of the game, thus resulting in a bunch of random balance values from all over SC2's history, including from the Beta.
I think a complete download should fix it in custom games, and maybe it might not even be an issue on ladder. Hopefully, tournament organizers won't be playing the game on a streaming, unfinished client.
Hmm, interesting. Yeah, the streaming game thing may be what is causing the problem.
On July 31 2012 18:11 MrGio wrote: It's ok. Now protoss needs more micro.
Man, i'm pretty sure you wouldn't be able to look more ignorant if you tried. With moving shot phoenix are only barely useful in very specific situations, take that away and they are basically flying paperweights.
On July 31 2012 16:56 Cutlery wrote: I was thinking this to myself a few weeks back. Now that phoenix got the range upgrade, the change which let them attack while moving no longer follows logic reasoing? I don't remember the comment for that change, but do you really need range 6 AND firing while moving? I'm pretty sure this was mainly to deal with mutas -- now done by the range upgrade instead.
Would make sense.. But might be a bug.
With micro you can still get them to fire while moving, can you not? Not necessarily a bad change, to demand micro, for a game like starcraft
I think I have seen that upgrade like 3 times out of hundreds of PvZs I've seen
i pretty much always see it if zerg keeps on making mutas and has a late hive. and at that point if you have e good amount of phoenix with the upgrade, you win.
On July 31 2012 16:56 Cutlery wrote: I was thinking this to myself a few weeks back. Now that phoenix got the range upgrade, the change which let them attack while moving no longer follows logic reasoing? I don't remember the comment for that change, but do you really need range 6 AND firing while moving? I'm pretty sure this was mainly to deal with mutas -- now done by the range upgrade instead.
Would make sense.. But might be a bug.
With micro you can still get them to fire while moving, can you not? Not necessarily a bad change, to demand micro, for a game like starcraft
Without move and shoot on phoenix, mutas hard counter phoenix. With move and shoot but small range, unless a top pro player is controlling the phoenix: mutas hard counter phoenix. Only non-pros get the range upgrade, which allows lower level players to actually counter mutas with phoenix.
And are you really demanding micro for a fast moving, low HP glass-cannon that has to use an ability on each ground unit it attacks? Phoenix are one of the most, if not the most, micro intensive units in the game.
Not sure your first paragraph isn't contradicting itself. And yes, hitting S every second for some micro wouldn't be bad considering that it's starcraft. They won't deccelerate enough to be caught by the mutas. I can understand that their speed make them a difficult tool, but it also gives them their great potential.
Guess you never played PvZ and got phoenix vs mutas... phoenix is he most micro-intensive unit, half a second and you may end up losing all your units to mutas, to actually use them you must ALWAYS keep them moving, while warping on the other side of the map. Marine/Maruader vs Baneling/Infestor? It's all done in 10s, not a whole game microing 4-5 units. Even with range upgrade phoenix are too few to properly counter mutas, so I think this is a huge bug, as OP said.
On July 31 2012 16:56 Cutlery wrote: I was thinking this to myself a few weeks back. Now that phoenix got the range upgrade, the change which let them attack while moving no longer follows logic reasoing? I don't remember the comment for that change, but do you really need range 6 AND firing while moving? I'm pretty sure this was mainly to deal with mutas -- now done by the range upgrade instead.
Would make sense.. But might be a bug.
With micro you can still get them to fire while moving, can you not? Not necessarily a bad change, to demand micro, for a game like starcraft
Without move and shoot on phoenix, mutas hard counter phoenix. With move and shoot but small range, unless a top pro player is controlling the phoenix: mutas hard counter phoenix. Only non-pros get the range upgrade, which allows lower level players to actually counter mutas with phoenix.
And are you really demanding micro for a fast moving, low HP glass-cannon that has to use an ability on each ground unit it attacks? Phoenix are one of the most, if not the most, micro intensive units in the game.
hard counter eh? do you even know what that means?
I think its a custom game bug only. Currently nRvBard is streaming and he's got flux vanes, amulet for templars and the warpgate bug too. I don't think this affects ladder since he tried it in teams and it did not work.
in my mod SC2BW im currently having massive issues with the order of dependencies being screwed up.
that is to say i have some units in a file. that are lower priority than other files. the top file takes priority. overriding the lower priority changes. thats how it's meant to work atleast.
alot of my low level changes are popping up and interfering with my mod. units having the wrong amount of hitpoints for example.
i think thats what is happening here. starcraft isn't loading it's files in the correct order and you have these old patch changes leaking through.
On July 31 2012 16:56 Cutlery wrote: I was thinking this to myself a few weeks back. Now that phoenix got the range upgrade, the change which let them attack while moving no longer follows logic reasoing? I don't remember the comment for that change, but do you really need range 6 AND firing while moving? I'm pretty sure this was mainly to deal with mutas -- now done by the range upgrade instead.
Would make sense.. But might be a bug.
With micro you can still get them to fire while moving, can you not? Not necessarily a bad change, to demand micro, for a game like starcraft
I think I have seen that upgrade like 3 times out of hundreds of PvZs I've seen
i pretty much always see it if zerg keeps on making mutas and has a late hive. and at that point if you have e good amount of phoenix with the upgrade, you win.
Are you talking about pro games or ladder games, because it sounds like the latter.
If it's not in the patch notes then it's a bug that will be fixed. To the people saying Phoenix are micro intensive, lol. I wouldn't expect any Protoss player below Top8 Masters to know what "micro intensive" means.
On July 31 2012 16:56 Cutlery wrote: I was thinking this to myself a few weeks back. Now that phoenix got the range upgrade, the change which let them attack while moving no longer follows logic reasoing? I don't remember the comment for that change, but do you really need range 6 AND firing while moving? I'm pretty sure this was mainly to deal with mutas -- now done by the range upgrade instead.
Would make sense.. But might be a bug.
With micro you can still get them to fire while moving, can you not? Not necessarily a bad change, to demand micro, for a game like starcraft
Without move and shoot on phoenix, mutas hard counter phoenix. With move and shoot but small range, unless a top pro player is controlling the phoenix: mutas hard counter phoenix. Only non-pros get the range upgrade, which allows lower level players to actually counter mutas with phoenix.
And are you really demanding micro for a fast moving, low HP glass-cannon that has to use an ability on each ground unit it attacks? Phoenix are one of the most, if not the most, micro intensive units in the game.
Uhh.
Ok, I agree with the other guy who said to try play marine & Marauder vs banelings infestor. Then you know what micro intensive means. truly, 1 second you look away, you look back and you only see banelings
On July 31 2012 19:05 MysteryTerran wrote: If it's not in the patch notes then it's a bug that will be fixed. To the people saying Phoenix are micro intensive, lol. I wouldn't expect any Protoss player below Top8 Masters to know what "micro intensive" means.
No kidding. The most hilarious part about this thread is listening to Protosses scramble for examples of how their race is on the same level of difficulty as the other two.
On July 31 2012 19:05 MysteryTerran wrote: If it's not in the patch notes then it's a bug that will be fixed. To the people saying Phoenix are micro intensive, lol. I wouldn't expect any Protoss player below Top8 Masters to know what "micro intensive" means.
No kidding. The most hilarious part about this thread is listening to Protosses scramble for examples of how their race is on the same level of difficulty as the other two.
Well, look at it this way: If they only had non moving shooting phoenixes as their units, AND you could even warp them from warpgates, they......actually wouldn't win many games.
On July 31 2012 16:56 Cutlery wrote: I was thinking this to myself a few weeks back. Now that phoenix got the range upgrade, the change which let them attack while moving no longer follows logic reasoing? I don't remember the comment for that change, but do you really need range 6 AND firing while moving? I'm pretty sure this was mainly to deal with mutas -- now done by the range upgrade instead.
Would make sense.. But might be a bug.
With micro you can still get them to fire while moving, can you not? Not necessarily a bad change, to demand micro, for a game like starcraft
This completely.
You can now shoot wile moving, but only with micro. I think many micro fans are a fan of this, although maybe not protoss players in general, since it is still a nerf.
That said, I think that maybe the range upgrade should get removed, and phoenix should get 5 range now just to balance things? or would protoss rather have 4+6 still?
On a rather unrelated note: Probably not many people knew this, but scouts had ridiculously good ability to shoot while moving (including backwards) in SC1 when microed — pretty sure the best in the game. People are aware of mutalisk micro vs scourge, but with scouts it's like 3x faster and easier. It made it fun for me to get scouts vs zerg when I'd play PvZ, since while prohibitively expensive, scourges couldn't deal with them, so they were excellent harass (since you can't have hydras everywhere)
as it has happened to a lot of mappers, blizzard probably forget to update their dependencies for the melee maps . As funny as it sounds, thats a big face palm from blizzard lol . Easillllyy fixable though.
On July 31 2012 16:56 Cutlery wrote: I was thinking this to myself a few weeks back. Now that phoenix got the range upgrade, the change which let them attack while moving no longer follows logic reasoing? I don't remember the comment for that change, but do you really need range 6 AND firing while moving? I'm pretty sure this was mainly to deal with mutas -- now done by the range upgrade instead.
Would make sense.. But might be a bug.
With micro you can still get them to fire while moving, can you not? Not necessarily a bad change, to demand micro, for a game like starcraft
Without move and shoot on phoenix, mutas hard counter phoenix. With move and shoot but small range, unless a top pro player is controlling the phoenix: mutas hard counter phoenix. Only non-pros get the range upgrade, which allows lower level players to actually counter mutas with phoenix.
And are you really demanding micro for a fast moving, low HP glass-cannon that has to use an ability on each ground unit it attacks? Phoenix are one of the most, if not the most, micro intensive units in the game.
Uhh.
Ok, I agree with the other guy who said to try play marine & Marauder vs banelings infestor. Then you know what micro intensive means. truly, 1 second you look away, you look back and you only see banelings
You know, infestors don't move at 3.75 speed... nor banelings
On July 31 2012 16:56 Cutlery wrote: I was thinking this to myself a few weeks back. Now that phoenix got the range upgrade, the change which let them attack while moving no longer follows logic reasoing? I don't remember the comment for that change, but do you really need range 6 AND firing while moving? I'm pretty sure this was mainly to deal with mutas -- now done by the range upgrade instead.
Would make sense.. But might be a bug.
With micro you can still get them to fire while moving, can you not? Not necessarily a bad change, to demand micro, for a game like starcraft
Without move and shoot on phoenix, mutas hard counter phoenix. With move and shoot but small range, unless a top pro player is controlling the phoenix: mutas hard counter phoenix. Only non-pros get the range upgrade, which allows lower level players to actually counter mutas with phoenix.
And are you really demanding micro for a fast moving, low HP glass-cannon that has to use an ability on each ground unit it attacks? Phoenix are one of the most, if not the most, micro intensive units in the game.
Uhh.
Ok, I agree with the other guy who said to try play marine & Marauder vs banelings infestor. Then you know what micro intensive means. truly, 1 second you look away, you look back and you only see banelings
You know, infestors don't move at 3.75 speed... nor banelings
Neither do they shoot while moving. You literally just have to right click phoenixes away from stuff and they do the rest themselves.
On July 31 2012 16:56 Cutlery wrote: I was thinking this to myself a few weeks back. Now that phoenix got the range upgrade, the change which let them attack while moving no longer follows logic reasoing? I don't remember the comment for that change, but do you really need range 6 AND firing while moving? I'm pretty sure this was mainly to deal with mutas -- now done by the range upgrade instead.
Would make sense.. But might be a bug.
With micro you can still get them to fire while moving, can you not? Not necessarily a bad change, to demand micro, for a game like starcraft
Without move and shoot on phoenix, mutas hard counter phoenix. With move and shoot but small range, unless a top pro player is controlling the phoenix: mutas hard counter phoenix. Only non-pros get the range upgrade, which allows lower level players to actually counter mutas with phoenix.
And are you really demanding micro for a fast moving, low HP glass-cannon that has to use an ability on each ground unit it attacks? Phoenix are one of the most, if not the most, micro intensive units in the game.
Uhh.
Ok, I agree with the other guy who said to try play marine & Marauder vs banelings infestor. Then you know what micro intensive means. truly, 1 second you look away, you look back and you only see banelings
You know, infestors don't move at 3.75 speed... nor banelings
Neither do they shoot while moving. You literally just have to right click phoenixes away from stuff and they do the rest themselves.
Nonono! You forget that phoenixes are the fastest air unit in the game, and that's problematic, because once you escape the danger zone you quickly end up in another danger zone and you have to move them again!
On July 31 2012 16:56 Cutlery wrote: I was thinking this to myself a few weeks back. Now that phoenix got the range upgrade, the change which let them attack while moving no longer follows logic reasoing? I don't remember the comment for that change, but do you really need range 6 AND firing while moving? I'm pretty sure this was mainly to deal with mutas -- now done by the range upgrade instead.
Would make sense.. But might be a bug.
With micro you can still get them to fire while moving, can you not? Not necessarily a bad change, to demand micro, for a game like starcraft
Without move and shoot on phoenix, mutas hard counter phoenix. With move and shoot but small range, unless a top pro player is controlling the phoenix: mutas hard counter phoenix. Only non-pros get the range upgrade, which allows lower level players to actually counter mutas with phoenix.
And are you really demanding micro for a fast moving, low HP glass-cannon that has to use an ability on each ground unit it attacks? Phoenix are one of the most, if not the most, micro intensive units in the game.
Uhh.
Ok, I agree with the other guy who said to try play marine & Marauder vs banelings infestor. Then you know what micro intensive means. truly, 1 second you look away, you look back and you only see banelings
You know, infestors don't move at 3.75 speed... nor banelings
Neither do they shoot while moving. You literally just have to right click phoenixes away from stuff and they do the rest themselves.
Well, technically, banelings shoot while moving ;D But god I just imagined an infestor auto casting free fungals while moving... Well actually it wasn't that much better than your regular infestor.
On July 31 2012 19:53 johnny123 wrote: as it has happened to a lot of mappers, blizzard probably forget to update their dependencies for the melee maps . As funny as it sounds, thats a big face palm from blizzard lol . Easillllyy fixable though.
If Maruader concussive shell does splash it's campaign dependencies, we ran into this before.
oh look, another thread where OP makes a claim that isn't fact checked by anybody until page 3. only 20 more pages of "omg worst nerf ever!!1, blizzard sux!" before this can all die.
oh look, another thread where OP makes a claim that isn't fact checked by anybody until page 3. only 20 more pages of "omg worst nerf ever!!1, blizzard sux!" before this can all die.
Oh look another post where someone saw one post and stopped reading the thread right there!
It seems to be an issue in customs, there is multiple replays with issues (that most people CANT watch because 1.5 is not live on their region) and a Youtube video that backs up the theroy. Ladder games might be fine ,or vice versa.
oh look, another thread where OP makes a claim that isn't fact checked by anybody until page 3. only 20 more pages of "omg worst nerf ever!!1, blizzard sux!" before this can all die.
Idk have anyone checked the bunker yet? I think blizzard made it so they can now shoot while moving too =)
oh look, another thread where OP makes a claim that isn't fact checked by anybody until page 3. only 20 more pages of "omg worst nerf ever!!1, blizzard sux!" before this can all die.
Idk have anyone checked the bunker yet? I think blizzard made it so they can now shoot while moving too =)
bunkers dont exist anymore, blizzard decided it is enough time to nerf them.
On July 31 2012 16:56 Cutlery wrote: I was thinking this to myself a few weeks back. Now that phoenix got the range upgrade, the change which let them attack while moving no longer follows logic reasoing? I don't remember the comment for that change, but do you really need range 6 AND firing while moving? I'm pretty sure this was mainly to deal with mutas -- now done by the range upgrade instead.
Would make sense.. But might be a bug.
With micro you can still get them to fire while moving, can you not? Not necessarily a bad change, to demand micro, for a game like starcraft
Without move and shoot on phoenix, mutas hard counter phoenix. With move and shoot but small range, unless a top pro player is controlling the phoenix: mutas hard counter phoenix. Only non-pros get the range upgrade, which allows lower level players to actually counter mutas with phoenix.
And are you really demanding micro for a fast moving, low HP glass-cannon that has to use an ability on each ground unit it attacks? Phoenix are one of the most, if not the most, micro intensive units in the game.
Uhh.
Ok, I agree with the other guy who said to try play marine & Marauder vs banelings infestor. Then you know what micro intensive means. truly, 1 second you look away, you look back and you only see banelings
You know, infestors don't move at 3.75 speed... nor banelings
So? So what?
Phoenixs are super quick. Yes MM can stim, but on creep its tough. Really tough having to split vs banelings and infestors because if infestors can fungal a big clump, then a few banelings will finish that.
But I dont want to turn this into a TvP thread. I'll let other experienced terran players tell you.....if you dont think so, try playing MM vs bling infestors without tanks. If marines and marauders shoot while moving, of course I can just stim and move back
On July 31 2012 16:56 Cutlery wrote: I was thinking this to myself a few weeks back. Now that phoenix got the range upgrade, the change which let them attack while moving no longer follows logic reasoing? I don't remember the comment for that change, but do you really need range 6 AND firing while moving? I'm pretty sure this was mainly to deal with mutas -- now done by the range upgrade instead.
You know Mutas shit all over Phoenixes once the numbers get big enough, right? With or without the upgrade. So to take out moving shot would make them even more useless than before. Blink stalkers and storm are still the preferred method for dealing with mutas for a reason. Phoenixes just aren't good.
oh look, another thread where OP makes a claim that isn't fact checked by anybody until page 3. only 20 more pages of "omg worst nerf ever!!1, blizzard sux!" before this can all die.
Oh look another post where someone saw one post and stopped reading the thread right there!
It seems to be an issue in customs, there is multiple replays with issues (that most people CANT watch because 1.5 is not live on their region) and a Youtube video that backs up the theroy. Ladder games might be fine ,or vice versa.
if I stopped at that post, how many more people do you think are going to even read past the OP?
On July 31 2012 16:56 Cutlery wrote: I was thinking this to myself a few weeks back. Now that phoenix got the range upgrade, the change which let them attack while moving no longer follows logic reasoing? I don't remember the comment for that change, but do you really need range 6 AND firing while moving? I'm pretty sure this was mainly to deal with mutas -- now done by the range upgrade instead.
You know Mutas shit all over Phoenixes once the numbers get big enough, right? With or without the upgrade. So to take out moving shot would make them even more useless than before. Blink stalkers and storm are still the preferred method for dealing with mutas for a reason. Phoenixes just aren't good.
On July 31 2012 16:56 Cutlery wrote: I was thinking this to myself a few weeks back. Now that phoenix got the range upgrade, the change which let them attack while moving no longer follows logic reasoing? I don't remember the comment for that change, but do you really need range 6 AND firing while moving? I'm pretty sure this was mainly to deal with mutas -- now done by the range upgrade instead.
Would make sense.. But might be a bug.
With micro you can still get them to fire while moving, can you not? Not necessarily a bad change, to demand micro, for a game like starcraft
no one gets that range upgrade.. BUT since phoenix are already garbage this hidden nerf makes them even more useless pvp hooray blizzard :D
On July 31 2012 16:56 Cutlery wrote: I was thinking this to myself a few weeks back. Now that phoenix got the range upgrade, the change which let them attack while moving no longer follows logic reasoing? I don't remember the comment for that change, but do you really need range 6 AND firing while moving? I'm pretty sure this was mainly to deal with mutas -- now done by the range upgrade instead.
Would make sense.. But might be a bug.
With micro you can still get them to fire while moving, can you not? Not necessarily a bad change, to demand micro, for a game like starcraft
Without move and shoot on phoenix, mutas hard counter phoenix. With move and shoot but small range, unless a top pro player is controlling the phoenix: mutas hard counter phoenix. Only non-pros get the range upgrade, which allows lower level players to actually counter mutas with phoenix.
And are you really demanding micro for a fast moving, low HP glass-cannon that has to use an ability on each ground unit it attacks? Phoenix are one of the most, if not the most, micro intensive units in the game.
Uhh.
Ok, I agree with the other guy who said to try play marine & Marauder vs banelings infestor. Then you know what micro intensive means. truly, 1 second you look away, you look back and you only see banelings
You know, infestors don't move at 3.75 speed... nor banelings
Neither do they shoot while moving. You literally just have to right click phoenixes away from stuff and they do the rest themselves.
3.75=>muta speed
You just can't "right click phoenixes away", you must attack the muta ball, or it will become too big. I'm not saying it's difficult to micro phoenixes with range upgrade, but you must do it 90% of time vs mutas, and you have to keep macroing behind that, even going to build 2 pylons or warping a bunch of stalkers may ends up losing 1-2 phoenixes because mutas appear just in that 0.5 second. Without range upgrade it's even more difficult, mutas just run away and turn to kill phoenxis, without perfect control you end up losing too much.
On the other hand, playing MM vs baneling/infestor is more difficult to actually micro, doing the split in the minimum time possible, but the macro is much easier(no CB to be done on stargate, no warp), just hotkeys, depots and mules.
On July 31 2012 20:25 dynwar7 wrote: So? So what?
Phoenixs are super quick. Yes MM can stim, but on creep its tough. Really tough having to split vs banelings and infestors because if infestors can fungal a big clump, then a few banelings will finish that.
But I dont want to turn this into a TvP thread. I'll let other experienced terran players tell you.....if you dont think so, try playing MM vs bling infestors without tanks. If marines and marauders shoot while moving, of course I can just stim and move back
As i said just few lines above, phoenixes are fast... yet, you must keep them moving and constantly keep attaccking the mutas. I play all races at approximately the same level, and the most mirco-intensive unit(beside speed warp prism with immortals) I think sc2 have is phoenix. As I said the MM micro is limited in few seconds, you don't need to keep stimmed marines kiting lings all the time moving around them.
On July 31 2012 16:56 Cutlery wrote: I was thinking this to myself a few weeks back. Now that phoenix got the range upgrade, the change which let them attack while moving no longer follows logic reasoing? I don't remember the comment for that change, but do you really need range 6 AND firing while moving? I'm pretty sure this was mainly to deal with mutas -- now done by the range upgrade instead.
Would make sense.. But might be a bug.
With micro you can still get them to fire while moving, can you not? Not necessarily a bad change, to demand micro, for a game like starcraft
Without move and shoot on phoenix, mutas hard counter phoenix. With move and shoot but small range, unless a top pro player is controlling the phoenix: mutas hard counter phoenix. Only non-pros get the range upgrade, which allows lower level players to actually counter mutas with phoenix.
And are you really demanding micro for a fast moving, low HP glass-cannon that has to use an ability on each ground unit it attacks? Phoenix are one of the most, if not the most, micro intensive units in the game.
Uhh.
Ok, I agree with the other guy who said to try play marine & Marauder vs banelings infestor. Then you know what micro intensive means. truly, 1 second you look away, you look back and you only see banelings
You know, infestors don't move at 3.75 speed... nor banelings
Neither do they shoot while moving. You literally just have to right click phoenixes away from stuff and they do the rest themselves.
3.75=>muta speed
You just can't "right click phoenixes away", you must attack the muta ball, or it will become too big. I'm not saying it's DIFFCULT to micro phoenixes with range upgrade, but you must do it 90% of time vs mutas, and you have to keep macroing behind that, even going to build 2 pylons or warping a bunch of stalkers may ends up losing 1-2 phoenixes because mutas appear just in that 0.5 second. Without range upgrade it's even more difficult, mutas just run away and turn to kill phoenxis, without perfect control you end up losing too much.
On the other hand, playing MM vs baneling/infestor is more difficult to actually micro, doing the split in the minimum time possible, but the macro is much easier(no CB to be done on stargate, no warp), just hotkeys, depots and mules.
Phoenixs are super quick. Yes MM can stim, but on creep its tough. Really tough having to split vs banelings and infestors because if infestors can fungal a big clump, then a few banelings will finish that.
But I dont want to turn this into a TvP thread. I'll let other experienced terran players tell you.....if you dont think so, try playing MM vs bling infestors without tanks. If marines and marauders shoot while moving, of course I can just stim and move back
As i said just few lines above, phoenixes are fast... yet, you must keep them moving and constantly keep attaccking the mutas. I play all races at approximately the same level, and the most mirco-intensive unit(beside speed warp prism with immortals) I think sc2 have is phoenix. As I said the MM micro is limited in few seconds, you don't need to keep stimmed marines kiting lings all the time moving around them.
Moving a unit that auto attacks is not micro intensive ok, full stop. At the same time MM are so vulnerable to fungal and blings. they get fungaled in a big clump, then say goodbye to that as banelings easily destroy those clumped units. Everybody knows MM vs bling infestor is super hard vs a decent zerg....no need to argue here to make your protoss look micro intensive....but as I said, you can say what you want, I dont want to turn this thread into this kind of discussion.
On July 31 2012 20:59 Djagulingu wrote: I don't understand why they can shoot while moving anyway.
They used to not be able to shoot while moving back in WoL Beta, but people complained that they were absolutely useless like that. So instead of increasing range or damage or HP they decided to give it moving shot. Seriously, who the fuck even complains about the phoenix anyway?
On July 31 2012 16:56 Cutlery wrote: I was thinking this to myself a few weeks back. Now that phoenix got the range upgrade, the change which let them attack while moving no longer follows logic reasoing? I don't remember the comment for that change, but do you really need range 6 AND firing while moving? I'm pretty sure this was mainly to deal with mutas -- now done by the range upgrade instead.
Would make sense.. But might be a bug.
With micro you can still get them to fire while moving, can you not? Not necessarily a bad change, to demand micro, for a game like starcraft
Without move and shoot on phoenix, mutas hard counter phoenix. With move and shoot but small range, unless a top pro player is controlling the phoenix: mutas hard counter phoenix. Only non-pros get the range upgrade, which allows lower level players to actually counter mutas with phoenix.
And are you really demanding micro for a fast moving, low HP glass-cannon that has to use an ability on each ground unit it attacks? Phoenix are one of the most, if not the most, micro intensive units in the game.
Uhh.
Ok, I agree with the other guy who said to try play marine & Marauder vs banelings infestor. Then you know what micro intensive means. truly, 1 second you look away, you look back and you only see banelings
You know, infestors don't move at 3.75 speed... nor banelings
Neither do they shoot while moving. You literally just have to right click phoenixes away from stuff and they do the rest themselves.
3.75=>muta speed
You just can't "right click phoenixes away", you must attack the muta ball, or it will become too big. I'm not saying it's DIFFCULT to micro phoenixes with range upgrade, but you must do it 90% of time vs mutas, and you have to keep macroing behind that, even going to build 2 pylons or warping a bunch of stalkers may ends up losing 1-2 phoenixes because mutas appear just in that 0.5 second. Without range upgrade it's even more difficult, mutas just run away and turn to kill phoenxis, without perfect control you end up losing too much.
On the other hand, playing MM vs baneling/infestor is more difficult to actually micro, doing the split in the minimum time possible, but the macro is much easier(no CB to be done on stargate, no warp), just hotkeys, depots and mules.
On July 31 2012 20:25 dynwar7 wrote: So? So what?
Phoenixs are super quick. Yes MM can stim, but on creep its tough. Really tough having to split vs banelings and infestors because if infestors can fungal a big clump, then a few banelings will finish that.
But I dont want to turn this into a TvP thread. I'll let other experienced terran players tell you.....if you dont think so, try playing MM vs bling infestors without tanks. If marines and marauders shoot while moving, of course I can just stim and move back
As i said just few lines above, phoenixes are fast... yet, you must keep them moving and constantly keep attaccking the mutas. I play all races at approximately the same level, and the most mirco-intensive unit(beside speed warp prism with immortals) I think sc2 have is phoenix. As I said the MM micro is limited in few seconds, you don't need to keep stimmed marines kiting lings all the time moving around them.
Moving a unit that auto attacks is not micro intensive ok, full stop. At the same time MM are so vulnerable to fungal and blings. they get fungaled in a big clump, then say goodbye to that as banelings easily destroy those clumped units. Everybody knows MM vs bling infestor is super hard vs a decent zerg....no need to argue here to make your protoss look micro intensive....but as I said, you can say what you want, I dont want to turn this thread into this kind of discussion.
Moving a unit that auto attacks into a +1 range advantage, that costs 150/100 to counter a 100/100 unit, producing it one at a time while the mutas get directly how many as you can afford, wiht 0.5 seconds of inadvertence that maybe cost u the whole game is microintensive. As I said I play every race at the same level, can you please TRY a PvZ going phoenixes to counter mutas? Guess you never even tried.
Moving a unit that auto attacks is not micro intensive ok, full stop. At the same time MM are so vulnerable to fungal and blings. they get fungaled in a big clump, then say goodbye to that as banelings easily destroy those clumped units. Everybody knows MM vs bling infestor is super hard vs a decent zerg....no need to argue here to make your protoss look micro intensive....but as I said, you can say what you want, I dont want to turn this thread into this kind of discussion.
Peace.
Try doing it for an entire game straight whilst simultaneously macroing, building a ground army, taking expansions, etc etc.
You don't actually have to continuously dance MM around banelings and infestors for minutes at a time. The fight is over one way or the other in a few seconds. In terms of concentrated burst APM it may be higher, but you don't need the same endurance as you do for Phoenix not to die to...well...everything.
Phoenix are micro-intensive in that they take up massive amounts of your attention and time to use. They're not micro-intensive in terms of pure burst APM.
Phoenix acceleration is crap to make up for the fact that they can move and shoot. That is why you have to constantly mirco them to make sure they don’t stop moving and we see mutas pick off single phoenix and run away. It is not a measure of precise control, but active control. Unless you figure out some safe space you can put them on patrol, you can’t warp in while using them.
Regardless, it is likely a bug and can be fixed. People arguing that about balance are just looking for an excuse to whine.
Moving a unit that auto attacks is not micro intensive ok, full stop. At the same time MM are so vulnerable to fungal and blings. they get fungaled in a big clump, then say goodbye to that as banelings easily destroy those clumped units. Everybody knows MM vs bling infestor is super hard vs a decent zerg....no need to argue here to make your protoss look micro intensive....but as I said, you can say what you want, I dont want to turn this thread into this kind of discussion.
Peace.
Try doing it for an entire game straight whilst simultaneously macroing, building a ground army, taking expansions, etc etc.
You don't actually have to continuously dance MM around banelings and infestors for minutes at a time. The fight is over one way or the other in a few seconds. In terms of concentrated burst APM it may be higher, but you don't need the same endurance as you do for Phoenix not to die to...well...everything.
Phoenix are micro-intensive in that they take up massive amounts of your attention and time to use. They're not micro-intensive in terms of pure burst APM.
Moving a unit that auto attacks is not micro intensive ok, full stop. At the same time MM are so vulnerable to fungal and blings. they get fungaled in a big clump, then say goodbye to that as banelings easily destroy those clumped units. Everybody knows MM vs bling infestor is super hard vs a decent zerg....no need to argue here to make your protoss look micro intensive....but as I said, you can say what you want, I dont want to turn this thread into this kind of discussion.
Peace.
Try doing it for an entire game straight whilst simultaneously macroing, building a ground army, taking expansions, etc etc.
You don't actually have to continuously dance MM around banelings and infestors for minutes at a time. The fight is over one way or the other in a few seconds. In terms of concentrated burst APM it may be higher, but you don't need the same endurance as you do for Phoenix not to die to...well...everything.
Phoenix are micro-intensive in that they take up massive amounts of your attention and time to use. They're not micro-intensive in terms of pure burst APM.
Entire game, really? Really?
Ok, they may be micro intensive, but it is easy micro, since they shoot while moving....such a huge advantage....then if anything happens (you need to spend time more on macro), they can just run away since they are the fastest air units right? Outrun those mutas. Not only that, but phoenixes arent that weak vs mutas, whereas bio ball die so easily to banelings and they cannot shoot while moving. If they could shoot while moving, and not be as vulnerable like MM is to blings, I'll take that any day....Yes...Mutas do splash damage, but the damage is very small compared to bling splash which could potentially kill your whole bio ball.
EDIT: Could someone just tell me if this bug is still there? Or it has been fixed?
Comparing phoenix micro to MM engagements is silly. Phoenixes are not core units, they are an investment that has to do damage. Inactive phoenixes are a huge waste of money and can lose you the game straight up.
Microing phoenixes may not be too complicated, but you have to babysit them constantly - very much like ZvT mutas. Combined with macro tasks, and microing your ground army, this becomes pretty difficult.
So yes, it does take great skill to use them effectively.
On July 31 2012 16:56 Cutlery wrote: I was thinking this to myself a few weeks back. Now that phoenix got the range upgrade, the change which let them attack while moving no longer follows logic reasoing? I don't remember the comment for that change, but do you really need range 6 AND firing while moving? I'm pretty sure this was mainly to deal with mutas -- now done by the range upgrade instead.
Would make sense.. But might be a bug.
With micro you can still get them to fire while moving, can you not? Not necessarily a bad change, to demand micro, for a game like starcraft
no if you cant shoot while moving you cant fight vs mutas anymore as micro would be almost impossible
last time phnx were bugged it lasted like 2 weeks, made phnx builds useless and ruined a lot of PvX MU's in tournies, hope it doesnt take this long this time, phnx is huge in PvP atm, if asus rogue is played with this bug, all results are null.
On July 31 2012 16:56 Cutlery wrote: I was thinking this to myself a few weeks back. Now that phoenix got the range upgrade, the change which let them attack while moving no longer follows logic reasoing? I don't remember the comment for that change, but do you really need range 6 AND firing while moving? I'm pretty sure this was mainly to deal with mutas -- now done by the range upgrade instead.
Would make sense.. But might be a bug.
With micro you can still get them to fire while moving, can you not? Not necessarily a bad change, to demand micro, for a game like starcraft
no if you cant shoot while moving you cant fight vs mutas anymore as micro would be almost impossible
its hard enough to multi task with phnx vs muta even with the range upgraded attack while moving, to make them not attack while moving would make this 2x more micro intensive than any other unit in the game.
Units like Vikings and Corruptors are usually much easier to use correctly than Phoenix, even if you don't have to do the oh so hard A-move with it. I play Zerg nowdays, so im not biased either.
I welcome the bug fix from the Title's OP from Pheonix to Phoenix. A most welcomed patch. Apart from that, the phoenix change is most likely a bug since it wasn't mentioned in patch notes.
On July 31 2012 16:56 Cutlery wrote: I was thinking this to myself a few weeks back. Now that phoenix got the range upgrade, the change which let them attack while moving no longer follows logic reasoing? I don't remember the comment for that change, but do you really need range 6 AND firing while moving? I'm pretty sure this was mainly to deal with mutas -- now done by the range upgrade instead.
Would make sense.. But might be a bug.
With micro you can still get them to fire while moving, can you not? Not necessarily a bad change, to demand micro, for a game like starcraft
Without move and shoot on phoenix, mutas hard counter phoenix. With move and shoot but small range, unless a top pro player is controlling the phoenix: mutas hard counter phoenix. Only non-pros get the range upgrade, which allows lower level players to actually counter mutas with phoenix.
And are you really demanding micro for a fast moving, low HP glass-cannon that has to use an ability on each ground unit it attacks? Phoenix are one of the most, if not the most, micro intensive units in the game.
Just a point of clarification. Phoenix are by no means "Glass-Cannons". Compare with the other Air Units. I didn't include Voidrays/Corruptors for obvious reasons as they're meant to take down Capital Ships. Banshees - 140 Vikings - 125 Mutalisk - 120 Phoenix - 120hp/60 Shields
When you compare it with the other race's air-units, the Phoenix is actually pretty beefy.
On July 31 2012 16:56 Cutlery wrote: I was thinking this to myself a few weeks back. Now that phoenix got the range upgrade, the change which let them attack while moving no longer follows logic reasoing? I don't remember the comment for that change, but do you really need range 6 AND firing while moving? I'm pretty sure this was mainly to deal with mutas -- now done by the range upgrade instead.
Would make sense.. But might be a bug.
With micro you can still get them to fire while moving, can you not? Not necessarily a bad change, to demand micro, for a game like starcraft
The range upgrade only gets used like once in a blue moon. You have to get fleet beacon to use it. Pheonix were balanced around moving while shooting(They are weak as fuck) if you want to add more micro I'm fine with that, but at least give them some more hp or higher damage or something....
Am i the only one who saw this coming even if it was or wasn't an intentional bug?
I mean come on guys... auto shooting planes where you just have to click around. If terrans and zergs have to multitask their flying units, aka mutas/banshees/vikings/corruptors, im not surprised pheonix gets the same treatment
On August 01 2012 00:24 Kergy wrote: I still haven't seen the phoenix range upgrade in a pro game yet -_-
I've seen it a couple times... so it's slightly more useful then medivac energy.... Still pretty pointless upgrade.
I don't think I've ever seen medivac energy loss affect the outcome of a game, now that you mention it.
That's because it's hard to quantify, but it's noticeable when they're feedbacked.
I would say medivac upgrade has a bigger effect than phoenix range because it's so often faked to look like cloak is researching whereas the phoenix upgrade doesn't even have that going for it.
I've seen the phoenix upgrade twice, protoss lost both games.
On August 01 2012 00:24 Kergy wrote: I still haven't seen the phoenix range upgrade in a pro game yet -_-
I've seen it a couple times... so it's slightly more useful then medivac energy.... Still pretty pointless upgrade.
I don't think I've ever seen medivac energy loss affect the outcome of a game, now that you mention it.
That's because it's hard to quantify, but it's noticeable when they're feedbacked.
I would say medivac upgrade has a bigger effect than phoenix range because it's so often faked to look like cloak is researching whereas the phoenix upgrade doesn't even have that going for it.
I've seen the phoenix upgrade twice, protoss lost both games.
You can like, fake carriers upgrades! Yeah! >_>
Has it really only been used twice, though? I'm sure there's more than that!
On August 01 2012 00:24 Kergy wrote: I still haven't seen the phoenix range upgrade in a pro game yet -_-
I've seen it a couple times... so it's slightly more useful then medivac energy.... Still pretty pointless upgrade.
I don't think I've ever seen medivac energy loss affect the outcome of a game, now that you mention it.
That's because it's hard to quantify, but it's noticeable when they're feedbacked.
I would say medivac upgrade has a bigger effect than phoenix range because it's so often faked to look like cloak is researching whereas the phoenix upgrade doesn't even have that going for it.
I've seen the phoenix upgrade twice, protoss lost both games.
You can like, fake carriers upgrades! Yeah! >_>
Has it really only been used twice, though? I'm sure there's more than that!
I've probably seen it like 6-7 times at most. I'm pretty sure the toss player lost like 90% of those games if not all of them xD The upgrade is bad and blizzard should feel bad...
On August 01 2012 00:24 Kergy wrote: I still haven't seen the phoenix range upgrade in a pro game yet -_-
I've seen it a couple times... so it's slightly more useful then medivac energy.... Still pretty pointless upgrade.
I don't think I've ever seen medivac energy loss affect the outcome of a game, now that you mention it.
That's because it's hard to quantify, but it's noticeable when they're feedbacked.
I would say medivac upgrade has a bigger effect than phoenix range because it's so often faked to look like cloak is researching whereas the phoenix upgrade doesn't even have that going for it.
I've seen the phoenix upgrade twice, protoss lost both games.
You can like, fake carriers upgrades! Yeah! >_>
Has it really only been used twice, though? I'm sure there's more than that!
I've probably seen it like 6-7 times at most. I'm pretty sure the toss player lost like 90% of those games if not all of them xD The upgrade is bad and blizzard should feel bad...
But think about it... did they lose to MUTALISKS? If not, blizzard did their job well by adding in something that stops mutalisk heavy play, right?!
On August 01 2012 00:24 Kergy wrote: I still haven't seen the phoenix range upgrade in a pro game yet -_-
I've seen it a couple times... so it's slightly more useful then medivac energy.... Still pretty pointless upgrade.
I don't think I've ever seen medivac energy loss affect the outcome of a game, now that you mention it.
That's because it's hard to quantify, but it's noticeable when they're feedbacked.
I would say medivac upgrade has a bigger effect than phoenix range because it's so often faked to look like cloak is researching whereas the phoenix upgrade doesn't even have that going for it.
I've seen the phoenix upgrade twice, protoss lost both games.
You can like, fake carriers upgrades! Yeah! >_>
Has it really only been used twice, though? I'm sure there's more than that!
I've probably seen it like 6-7 times at most. I'm pretty sure the toss player lost like 90% of those games if not all of them xD The upgrade is bad and blizzard should feel bad...
I remember Hero using it in the GSL once to great effect. Pretty sure it was on Metropolis?
On August 01 2012 00:24 Kergy wrote: I still haven't seen the phoenix range upgrade in a pro game yet -_-
I've seen it a couple times... so it's slightly more useful then medivac energy.... Still pretty pointless upgrade.
I don't think I've ever seen medivac energy loss affect the outcome of a game, now that you mention it.
have seen ton of pro games where the player lose because they ran out of energy, because they were under constant pressure or got their medivacs sniped and the new ones where empty as soon as they left the starport and the army still in yellow. Some actually of a banshee opening where they faked medivac energy but canceled it afterwards. It is something you can get along with the extremely useful raven that will increase your overall army strength as long as you keep it alive. Medivac energy is situational though, but far from useless. But people dislike getting situational upgrades at the start as it can put you behind by a high chance. But medivac energy won me a few games against really aggressive players. And faking a cloaked banshee and then having a raven + medivac energy gives you a good bonus for the midgame.
Range upgrade isn't seen in progames often right now (part of it is the phoenix use got better), because you don't see mutas on a common basis, and going phoenix after mutas are out, doesn't work too good. I think Maps were more important at making mutas less powerful, then the phoenix t3 upgrade or the shield upgrade buff (pretty effective against mutas).
On August 01 2012 00:24 Kergy wrote: I still haven't seen the phoenix range upgrade in a pro game yet -_-
I've seen it a couple times... so it's slightly more useful then medivac energy.... Still pretty pointless upgrade.
I don't think I've ever seen medivac energy loss affect the outcome of a game, now that you mention it.
That's because it's hard to quantify, but it's noticeable when they're feedbacked.
I would say medivac upgrade has a bigger effect than phoenix range because it's so often faked to look like cloak is researching whereas the phoenix upgrade doesn't even have that going for it.
I've seen the phoenix upgrade twice, protoss lost both games.
You can like, fake carriers upgrades! Yeah! >_>
Has it really only been used twice, though? I'm sure there's more than that!
I've probably seen it like 6-7 times at most. I'm pretty sure the toss player lost like 90% of those games if not all of them xD The upgrade is bad and blizzard should feel bad...
But think about it... did they lose to MUTALISKS? If not, blizzard did their job well by adding in something that stops mutalisk heavy play, right?!
They did lose to mutalisk in most of those games xD The only reason Toss would ever go for it, is mutalisks... it just doesn't work xD
On August 01 2012 00:24 Kergy wrote: I still haven't seen the phoenix range upgrade in a pro game yet -_-
I've seen it a couple times... so it's slightly more useful then medivac energy.... Still pretty pointless upgrade.
I don't think I've ever seen medivac energy loss affect the outcome of a game, now that you mention it.
That's because it's hard to quantify, but it's noticeable when they're feedbacked.
I would say medivac upgrade has a bigger effect than phoenix range because it's so often faked to look like cloak is researching whereas the phoenix upgrade doesn't even have that going for it.
I've seen the phoenix upgrade twice, protoss lost both games.
You can like, fake carriers upgrades! Yeah! >_>
Has it really only been used twice, though? I'm sure there's more than that!
I've probably seen it like 6-7 times at most. I'm pretty sure the toss player lost like 90% of those games if not all of them xD The upgrade is bad and blizzard should feel bad...
But think about it... did they lose to MUTALISKS? If not, blizzard did their job well by adding in something that stops mutalisk heavy play, right?!
They did lose to mutalisk in most of those games xD The only reason Toss would ever go for it, is mutalisks... it just doesn't work xD
Hero used it quite a few times, but you have to open stargate and the zerg has to tech directly to mutas, if they pull them lategame the upgrade doesnt really help.
On August 01 2012 00:24 Kergy wrote: I still haven't seen the phoenix range upgrade in a pro game yet -_-
I've seen it a couple times... so it's slightly more useful then medivac energy.... Still pretty pointless upgrade.
I don't think I've ever seen medivac energy loss affect the outcome of a game, now that you mention it.
That's because it's hard to quantify, but it's noticeable when they're feedbacked.
I would say medivac upgrade has a bigger effect than phoenix range because it's so often faked to look like cloak is researching whereas the phoenix upgrade doesn't even have that going for it.
I've seen the phoenix upgrade twice, protoss lost both games.
You can like, fake carriers upgrades! Yeah! >_>
Has it really only been used twice, though? I'm sure there's more than that!
I've probably seen it like 6-7 times at most. I'm pretty sure the toss player lost like 90% of those games if not all of them xD The upgrade is bad and blizzard should feel bad...
But think about it... did they lose to MUTALISKS? If not, blizzard did their job well by adding in something that stops mutalisk heavy play, right?!
They did lose to mutalisk in most of those games xD The only reason Toss would ever go for it, is mutalisks... it just doesn't work xD
When I think about the ability itself, it seems more to me that it has the ability to be very strong, but transitioning into fleet beacon and that upgrade when the threat of mutalisks is already apparent is probably not a very legitimate response. Maybe nobody has found the proper way to get there? Or maybe it needs to be easier to obtain. I don't think it's the upgrade itself that's bad, more of it being where it is in the tech tree.
On August 01 2012 00:24 Kergy wrote: I still haven't seen the phoenix range upgrade in a pro game yet -_-
I've seen it a couple times... so it's slightly more useful then medivac energy.... Still pretty pointless upgrade.
I don't think I've ever seen medivac energy loss affect the outcome of a game, now that you mention it.
That's because it's hard to quantify, but it's noticeable when they're feedbacked.
I would say medivac upgrade has a bigger effect than phoenix range because it's so often faked to look like cloak is researching whereas the phoenix upgrade doesn't even have that going for it.
I've seen the phoenix upgrade twice, protoss lost both games.
You can like, fake carriers upgrades! Yeah! >_>
Has it really only been used twice, though? I'm sure there's more than that!
I've probably seen it like 6-7 times at most. I'm pretty sure the toss player lost like 90% of those games if not all of them xD The upgrade is bad and blizzard should feel bad...
But think about it... did they lose to MUTALISKS? If not, blizzard did their job well by adding in something that stops mutalisk heavy play, right?!
They did lose to mutalisk in most of those games xD The only reason Toss would ever go for it, is mutalisks... it just doesn't work xD
Hero used it quite a few times, but you have to open stargate and the zerg has to tech directly to mutas, if they pull them lategame the upgrade doesnt really help.
That too. It's kinda niche when you think about it. Only countering mutalisks in certain cirumstances...
So phoenix's act like every other unit in the game now , and thats a travesty? phoenix's can do everything they have been doing, they just require more clicks.
On August 01 2012 00:52 Dagan159 wrote: So phoenix's act like every other unit in the game now , and thats a travesty? phoenix's can do everything they have been doing, they just require more clicks.
except micro vs mutalisks.
I hate people comparing the phoenix to other units of any race and saying "well now its working like it should". The phoenix can't do a lot of the things all the other races ground units can, like cloak or hit ground targets without the use of an ability. It's a different unit and it's designed to move and fire.
If you've ever had to micro vs muta in particular (and not just talked about it in theory) you'll know how hard it is even when they can move and fire. Take that away and the phoenix becomes just that much worse.
On August 01 2012 00:52 Dagan159 wrote: So phoenix's act like every other unit in the game now , and thats a travesty? phoenix's can do everything they have been doing, they just require more clicks.
Except they were balanced to not have to require those clicks(Small range shitty dps) I'm fine with this change if they buff some of the other stats. But they stats they have now were meant for a unit that can auto shoot and balanced around that. Take that away and you have to at least give them some better dps.
On July 31 2012 16:56 Cutlery wrote: I was thinking this to myself a few weeks back. Now that phoenix got the range upgrade, the change which let them attack while moving no longer follows logic reasoing? I don't remember the comment for that change, but do you really need range 6 AND firing while moving? I'm pretty sure this was mainly to deal with mutas -- now done by the range upgrade instead.
Would make sense.. But might be a bug.
With micro you can still get them to fire while moving, can you not? Not necessarily a bad change, to demand micro, for a game like starcraft
Without move and shoot on phoenix, mutas hard counter phoenix. With move and shoot but small range, unless a top pro player is controlling the phoenix: mutas hard counter phoenix. Only non-pros get the range upgrade, which allows lower level players to actually counter mutas with phoenix.
And are you really demanding micro for a fast moving, low HP glass-cannon that has to use an ability on each ground unit it attacks? Phoenix are one of the most, if not the most, micro intensive units in the game.
Try play Marine & Marauder against Baneling & Infestor if you really want to know what does 'micro intensive' means
All I can hear is QQ about how terran micro is infinitely harder than protoss micro, and some bolding here. This isn't even on point, that is comparing controlling 1 unit with a range upgrade that can't attack ground vs a unit that can't attack while moving but does splash and can attack ground, to 2 units vs 2 units with much different abilities in different situations.
On August 01 2012 00:54 conz wrote: No unit is the same, just tested.
no other unit can attack while on a move command, just tested.
Knock it off. The phoenix has been designed around shooting while moving from day one, and they wouldn't remove the capacity to do so without something in the patch notes. The unit can be balanced around moving while shooting. Not every unit has to act the same for the game to be balanced, nor should it be that way.
On July 31 2012 16:56 Cutlery wrote: I was thinking this to myself a few weeks back. Now that phoenix got the range upgrade, the change which let them attack while moving no longer follows logic reasoing? I don't remember the comment for that change, but do you really need range 6 AND firing while moving? I'm pretty sure this was mainly to deal with mutas -- now done by the range upgrade instead.
Would make sense.. But might be a bug.
With micro you can still get them to fire while moving, can you not? Not necessarily a bad change, to demand micro, for a game like starcraft
Without move and shoot on phoenix, mutas hard counter phoenix. With move and shoot but small range, unless a top pro player is controlling the phoenix: mutas hard counter phoenix. Only non-pros get the range upgrade, which allows lower level players to actually counter mutas with phoenix.
And are you really demanding micro for a fast moving, low HP glass-cannon that has to use an ability on each ground unit it attacks? Phoenix are one of the most, if not the most, micro intensive units in the game.
Try play Marine & Marauder against Baneling & Infestor if you really want to know what does 'micro intensive' means
All I can hear is QQ about how terran micro is infinitely harder than protoss micro, and some bolding here. This isn't even on point, that is comparing controlling 1 unit with a range upgrade that can't attack ground vs a unit that can't attack while moving but does splash and can attack ground, to 2 units vs 2 units with much different abilities in different situations.
In threads like this... it's best to ignore people with under 200 posts they are usually 1)Trolls 2)Idiots
Note: I am NOT saying every person under 200 posts doesn't have good input. Just saying that in balance discussion threads I see way more stupid/troll posts from people with really low post counts then not.
On July 31 2012 16:56 Cutlery wrote: I was thinking this to myself a few weeks back. Now that phoenix got the range upgrade, the change which let them attack while moving no longer follows logic reasoing? I don't remember the comment for that change, but do you really need range 6 AND firing while moving? I'm pretty sure this was mainly to deal with mutas -- now done by the range upgrade instead.
You know Mutas shit all over Phoenixes once the numbers get big enough, right? With or without the upgrade. So to take out moving shot would make them even more useless than before. Blink stalkers and storm are still the preferred method for dealing with mutas for a reason. Phoenixes just aren't good.
moving shot? Phoenixes don't have moving shot.
Yes they do?
No.. Phoenix have 'gliding shot'. Moving shot is something completely different.
On July 31 2012 16:56 Cutlery wrote: I was thinking this to myself a few weeks back. Now that phoenix got the range upgrade, the change which let them attack while moving no longer follows logic reasoing? I don't remember the comment for that change, but do you really need range 6 AND firing while moving? I'm pretty sure this was mainly to deal with mutas -- now done by the range upgrade instead.
Would make sense.. But might be a bug.
With micro you can still get them to fire while moving, can you not? Not necessarily a bad change, to demand micro, for a game like starcraft
Without move and shoot on phoenix, mutas hard counter phoenix. With move and shoot but small range, unless a top pro player is controlling the phoenix: mutas hard counter phoenix. Only non-pros get the range upgrade, which allows lower level players to actually counter mutas with phoenix.
And are you really demanding micro for a fast moving, low HP glass-cannon that has to use an ability on each ground unit it attacks? Phoenix are one of the most, if not the most, micro intensive units in the game.
Try play Marine & Marauder against Baneling & Infestor if you really want to know what does 'micro intensive' means
All I can hear is QQ about how terran micro is infinitely harder than protoss micro, and some bolding here. This isn't even on point, that is comparing controlling 1 unit with a range upgrade that can't attack ground vs a unit that can't attack while moving but does splash and can attack ground, to 2 units vs 2 units with much different abilities in different situations.
In threads like this... it's best to ignore people with under 200 posts they are usually 1)Trolls 2)Idiots
Note: I am NOT saying every person under 200 posts doesn't have good input. Just saying that in balance discussion threads I see way more stupid/troll posts from people with really low post counts then not.
It's because if they're idiots they'll usually be banned before hitting 500+ posts. TL does a pretty good job at weeding them out.
On August 01 2012 00:54 conz wrote: No unit is the same, just tested.
no other unit can attack while on a move command, just tested.
Knock it off. The phoenix has been designed around shooting while moving from day one, and they wouldn't remove the capacity to do so without something in the patch notes. The unit can be balanced around moving while shooting. Not every unit has to act the same for the game to be balanced, nor should it be that way.
Phoenix hasnt had range upgrade since the start. if you cant step micro range 6 vs range 3.... too bad.
On August 01 2012 00:54 conz wrote: No unit is the same, just tested.
no other unit can attack while on a move command, just tested.
Knock it off. The phoenix has been designed around shooting while moving from day one, and they wouldn't remove the capacity to do so without something in the patch notes. The unit can be balanced around moving while shooting. Not every unit has to act the same for the game to be balanced, nor should it be that way.
Actually the phoenix was originally not designed to move and shoot from day 1. That patch only happened in the beta soon after this thread complained about the lack of "moving shot" using phoenix vs muta as an example. though it wasn't exactly what it was asking for.
On July 31 2012 16:56 Cutlery wrote: I was thinking this to myself a few weeks back. Now that phoenix got the range upgrade, the change which let them attack while moving no longer follows logic reasoing? I don't remember the comment for that change, but do you really need range 6 AND firing while moving? I'm pretty sure this was mainly to deal with mutas -- now done by the range upgrade instead.
Would make sense.. But might be a bug.
With micro you can still get them to fire while moving, can you not? Not necessarily a bad change, to demand micro, for a game like starcraft
Without move and shoot on phoenix, mutas hard counter phoenix. With move and shoot but small range, unless a top pro player is controlling the phoenix: mutas hard counter phoenix. Only non-pros get the range upgrade, which allows lower level players to actually counter mutas with phoenix.
And are you really demanding micro for a fast moving, low HP glass-cannon that has to use an ability on each ground unit it attacks? Phoenix are one of the most, if not the most, micro intensive units in the game.
Try play Marine & Marauder against Baneling & Infestor if you really want to know what does 'micro intensive' means
All I can hear is QQ about how terran micro is infinitely harder than protoss micro, and some bolding here. This isn't even on point, that is comparing controlling 1 unit with a range upgrade that can't attack ground vs a unit that can't attack while moving but does splash and can attack ground, to 2 units vs 2 units with much different abilities in different situations.
In threads like this... it's best to ignore people with under 200 posts they are usually 1)Trolls 2)Idiots
Note: I am NOT saying every person under 200 posts doesn't have good input. Just saying that in balance discussion threads I see way more stupid/troll posts from people with really low post counts then not.
It's because if they're idiots they'll usually be banned before hitting 500+ posts. TL does a pretty good job at weeding them out.
I kinda wish there was an option to hid them and make my life easier.
On July 31 2012 16:56 Cutlery wrote: I was thinking this to myself a few weeks back. Now that phoenix got the range upgrade, the change which let them attack while moving no longer follows logic reasoing? I don't remember the comment for that change, but do you really need range 6 AND firing while moving? I'm pretty sure this was mainly to deal with mutas -- now done by the range upgrade instead.
Would make sense.. But might be a bug.
With micro you can still get them to fire while moving, can you not? Not necessarily a bad change, to demand micro, for a game like starcraft
Without move and shoot on phoenix, mutas hard counter phoenix. With move and shoot but small range, unless a top pro player is controlling the phoenix: mutas hard counter phoenix. Only non-pros get the range upgrade, which allows lower level players to actually counter mutas with phoenix.
And are you really demanding micro for a fast moving, low HP glass-cannon that has to use an ability on each ground unit it attacks? Phoenix are one of the most, if not the most, micro intensive units in the game.
Try play Marine & Marauder against Baneling & Infestor if you really want to know what does 'micro intensive' means
All I can hear is QQ about how terran micro is infinitely harder than protoss micro, and some bolding here. This isn't even on point, that is comparing controlling 1 unit with a range upgrade that can't attack ground vs a unit that can't attack while moving but does splash and can attack ground, to 2 units vs 2 units with much different abilities in different situations.
In threads like this... it's best to ignore people with under 200 posts they are usually 1)Trolls 2)Idiots
Note: I am NOT saying every person under 200 posts doesn't have good input. Just saying that in balance discussion threads I see way more stupid/troll posts from people with really low post counts then not.
It's because if they're idiots they'll usually be banned before hitting 500+ posts. TL does a pretty good job at weeding them out.
I kinda wish there was an option to hid them and make my life easier.
On July 31 2012 16:56 Cutlery wrote: I was thinking this to myself a few weeks back. Now that phoenix got the range upgrade, the change which let them attack while moving no longer follows logic reasoing? I don't remember the comment for that change, but do you really need range 6 AND firing while moving? I'm pretty sure this was mainly to deal with mutas -- now done by the range upgrade instead.
Would make sense.. But might be a bug.
With micro you can still get them to fire while moving, can you not? Not necessarily a bad change, to demand micro, for a game like starcraft
Without move and shoot on phoenix, mutas hard counter phoenix. With move and shoot but small range, unless a top pro player is controlling the phoenix: mutas hard counter phoenix. Only non-pros get the range upgrade, which allows lower level players to actually counter mutas with phoenix.
And are you really demanding micro for a fast moving, low HP glass-cannon that has to use an ability on each ground unit it attacks? Phoenix are one of the most, if not the most, micro intensive units in the game.
Try play Marine & Marauder against Baneling & Infestor if you really want to know what does 'micro intensive' means
All I can hear is QQ about how terran micro is infinitely harder than protoss micro, and some bolding here. This isn't even on point, that is comparing controlling 1 unit with a range upgrade that can't attack ground vs a unit that can't attack while moving but does splash and can attack ground, to 2 units vs 2 units with much different abilities in different situations.
In threads like this... it's best to ignore people with under 200 posts they are usually 1)Trolls 2)Idiots
Note: I am NOT saying every person under 200 posts doesn't have good input. Just saying that in balance discussion threads I see way more stupid/troll posts from people with really low post counts then not.
It's because if they're idiots they'll usually be banned before hitting 500+ posts. TL does a pretty good job at weeding them out.
I kinda wish there was an option to hid them and make my life easier.
I wish there was an option to hide people with under 2000 posts because they're worthless to me.
On August 01 2012 00:21 xza wrote: Am i the only one who saw this coming even if it was or wasn't an intentional bug?
I mean come on guys... auto shooting planes where you just have to click around. If terrans and zergs have to multitask their flying units, aka mutas/banshees/vikings/corruptors, im not surprised pheonix gets the same treatment
You were wrong in seeing it coming as it isn't happening, it's a bug that is/will be fixed. Phoenix couldn't move and shoot when they first existed it was only added later. Why would blizzard revert that change when there has been nothing even close to showing that it's OP?
You can't just compare any unit to another just because they can both fly, all units are designed differently.
On August 01 2012 00:21 xza wrote: Am i the only one who saw this coming even if it was or wasn't an intentional bug?
I mean come on guys... auto shooting planes where you just have to click around. If terrans and zergs have to multitask their flying units, aka mutas/banshees/vikings/corruptors, im not surprised pheonix gets the same treatment
That's right! And also, floating buildings, if zerg and protoss needs to multitask to save their bases, im surprised why CC and orbitals shouldn't have the same treatment
On August 01 2012 00:24 Kergy wrote: I still haven't seen the phoenix range upgrade in a pro game yet -_-
No one really makes enough phoenix to warrant the upgrade, which is a mistake in p v z imo.
It's too much of a commitment even if you manage to kill the mutas you will either have your phoenixes killed by corrupters or you will be destroyed by a tech switch as you're stuck with a huge amount of useless phoenixes
I used to hate Phoenixes that could move and shoot, I mean... the range upgrade is pretty far away, not sure why they'd remove the funamentals of phoenix.
On July 31 2012 16:56 Cutlery wrote: I was thinking this to myself a few weeks back. Now that phoenix got the range upgrade, the change which let them attack while moving no longer follows logic reasoing? I don't remember the comment for that change, but do you really need range 6 AND firing while moving? I'm pretty sure this was mainly to deal with mutas -- now done by the range upgrade instead.
Would make sense.. But might be a bug.
With micro you can still get them to fire while moving, can you not? Not necessarily a bad change, to demand micro, for a game like starcraft
Without move and shoot on phoenix, mutas hard counter phoenix. With move and shoot but small range, unless a top pro player is controlling the phoenix: mutas hard counter phoenix. Only non-pros get the range upgrade, which allows lower level players to actually counter mutas with phoenix.
And are you really demanding micro for a fast moving, low HP glass-cannon that has to use an ability on each ground unit it attacks? Phoenix are one of the most, if not the most, micro intensive units in the game.
Try play Marine & Marauder against Baneling & Infestor if you really want to know what does 'micro intensive' means
All I can hear is QQ about how terran micro is infinitely harder than protoss micro, and some bolding here. This isn't even on point, that is comparing controlling 1 unit with a range upgrade that can't attack ground vs a unit that can't attack while moving but does splash and can attack ground, to 2 units vs 2 units with much different abilities in different situations.
In threads like this... it's best to ignore people with under 200 posts they are usually 1)Trolls 2)Idiots
Note: I am NOT saying every person under 200 posts doesn't have good input. Just saying that in balance discussion threads I see way more stupid/troll posts from people with really low post counts then not.
It's because if they're idiots they'll usually be banned before hitting 500+ posts. TL does a pretty good job at weeding them out.
I kinda wish there was an option to hid them and make my life easier.
I wish there was an option to hide people with under 2000 posts because they're worthless to me.
I kinda wish there was an option to hide everyone, so I can always have an uncontested opinion.
On August 01 2012 01:26 larse wrote: Confirmed today with the final released version on NA, that is is not true. Phoenix can still attack while moving.
Can you please post a replay so the mods can close this thread and we can all move on with our lives?
On August 01 2012 01:26 larse wrote: Confirmed today with the final released version on NA, that is is not true. Phoenix can still attack while moving.
Can you please post a replay so the mods can close this thread and we can all move on with our lives?
This is the 1.5 replay shows that the phoenix can still attack while moving with or without the range upgrade
I tried this myself, and on Cloud Kingdom LE (uploaded by Blizzard), it worked normally. On Crux Whirlwind (not uploaded by Blizzard), it worked like in the OP (that is to say, no gliding shot). Sounds like custom mappers might have to make a change in their triggers with the patch.
On August 01 2012 01:53 Antoine wrote: I tried this myself, and on Cloud Kingdom LE (uploaded by Blizzard), it worked normally. On Crux Whirlwind (not uploaded by Blizzard), it worked like in the OP (that is to say, no gliding shot). Sounds like custom mappers might have to make a change in their triggers with the patch.
Terrible terrible damage to the game. Don't how the tournaments will handle this in the near future. It's like that every map will be updated. And there may be other bugs to custom maps.
On August 01 2012 01:53 Antoine wrote: I tried this myself, and on Cloud Kingdom LE (uploaded by Blizzard), it worked normally. On Crux Whirlwind (not uploaded by Blizzard), it worked like in the OP (that is to say, no gliding shot). Sounds like custom mappers might have to make a change in their triggers with the patch.
Going to be fixed, this is definetly a bug. If it was it would've already been brought up by someone, as bad as blizzard is they wouldn't make a balance change without noting it.
can't say i'm surprised. remember when phoenix graviton beam didn't cancel itself after the target died? and it was never addressed but hotfixed after like a month or two? haha
On July 31 2012 20:59 Djagulingu wrote: I don't understand why they can shoot while moving anyway.
They used to not be able to shoot while moving back in WoL Beta, but people complained that they were absolutely useless like that. So instead of increasing range or damage or HP they decided to give it moving shot. Seriously, who the fuck even complains about the phoenix anyway?
So protoss players literally complained about having to micro their units while their opponents have to micro their units as well, and got the privilege of not having to micro their units while their opponents still have to micro their units. And even then they say Phoenixes are "micro intensive".
On July 31 2012 16:56 Cutlery wrote: I was thinking this to myself a few weeks back. Now that phoenix got the range upgrade, the change which let them attack while moving no longer follows logic reasoing? I don't remember the comment for that change, but do you really need range 6 AND firing while moving? I'm pretty sure this was mainly to deal with mutas -- now done by the range upgrade instead.
Would make sense.. But might be a bug.
With micro you can still get them to fire while moving, can you not? Not necessarily a bad change, to demand micro, for a game like starcraft
Without move and shoot on phoenix, mutas hard counter phoenix. With move and shoot but small range, unless a top pro player is controlling the phoenix: mutas hard counter phoenix. Only non-pros get the range upgrade, which allows lower level players to actually counter mutas with phoenix.
And are you really demanding micro for a fast moving, low HP glass-cannon that has to use an ability on each ground unit it attacks? Phoenix are one of the most, if not the most, micro intensive units in the game.
Just a point of clarification. Phoenix are by no means "Glass-Cannons". Compare with the other Air Units. I didn't include Voidrays/Corruptors for obvious reasons as they're meant to take down Capital Ships. Banshees - 140 Vikings - 125 Mutalisk - 120 Phoenix - 120hp/60 Shields
When you compare it with the other race's air-units, the Phoenix is actually pretty beefy.
Also phoenixes become a lot less micro-intensive when compared to mutas. Not to mention the units they "have to use abilities on" can't hit back either.
On July 31 2012 20:59 Djagulingu wrote: I don't understand why they can shoot while moving anyway.
They used to not be able to shoot while moving back in WoL Beta, but people complained that they were absolutely useless like that. So instead of increasing range or damage or HP they decided to give it moving shot. Seriously, who the fuck even complains about the phoenix anyway?
So protoss players literally complained about having to micro their units while their opponents have to micro their units as well, and got the privilege of not having to micro their units while their opponents still have to micro their units. And even then they say Phoenixes are "micro intensive".
Yeah that's exactly what happened
Phoenix's were useless because they lost in straight up battles to any other air unit that could attack it back, so it was a poor unit to make in almost every circumstance. It was simply an air-to-air fighter that sucked at air-to-air, so Blizzard made it have a moving shot so that it had some sort of purpose or had some sort of advantage that it could use.
Hey guys, FYI there is a designated balance discussion thread on TL. It exists so that we can all make intelligent and thought-out opinions regarding the current balance and so that other threads don't get derailed to hell.
So if you really think that the phoenix is broken and imbalanced for Protoss (LOL haven't heard that one until today) then please go to this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=255254 I assume that all of you have thought through the following categories: Cause of Problem, Potential Solutions, Side Effects, and Examples to support your claim so making a quality post should be no problem! But be careful, posts like "Protoss players should have to micro, the phoenix is a joke" or "why do they even shoot like that" will not be well-received because they are not constructive in any fucking way nor do they even make sense (aka flame-bait). Happy posting!
On August 01 2012 08:18 Erik.TheRed wrote: Hey guys, FYI there is a designated balance discussion thread on TL. It exists so that we can all make intelligent and thought-out opinions regarding the current balance and so that other threads don't get derailed to hell.
So if you really think that the phoenix is broken and imbalanced for Protoss (LOL haven't heard that one until today) then please go to this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=255254 I assume that all of you have thought through the following categories: Cause of Problem, Potential Solutions, Side Effects, and Examples to support your claim so making a quality post should be no problem! But be careful, posts like "Protoss players should have to micro, the phoenix is a joke" or "why do they even shoot like that" will not be well-received because they are not constructive in any fucking way nor do they even make sense (aka flame-bait). Happy posting!
Was still happening next page so decided to bump it up th the last. Ty red!
Okay I did a little digging and I found the problem.
There are two copies of unit information in the editor - Liberty and LibertyMulti. Liberty uses old data and LibertyMulti uses the correct data. I don't know how the fuck this was screwed up, but wow..
I guess it does make sense to store an old build for the single player (so that single player doesn't change with each patch). Sounds like they just pointed to the wrong data set in the multiplayer?
On August 01 2012 13:49 Plexa wrote: Okay I did a little digging and I found the problem.
There are two copies of unit information in the editor - Liberty and LibertyMulti. Liberty uses old data and LibertyMulti uses the correct data. I don't know how the fuck this was screwed up, but wow..
It's always been like this.
What happens is that Liberty Multi is "supposed" to overwrite Liberty if in a multiplayer game (rather, it should because in single player games [the campaign for example], "Liberty Multi" doesn't exist).
I am guessing for whatever reason, custom games lack Liberty Multi (or at least the latest one).
I really dislike streaming or a lot of this server side stuff that was introduced with the Queen buff (from a modding point of view, it means a ton of stuff that can affect your map but you don't know how it affects it because there are some stuff server side).
For example, if you wanted to change queen range, you can't without having to completely having to replace the whole queen weapon due to the *server side patch always overwriting what you do on your map (at least I think so, I remember having to do that actually).
*Again remember that when they buffed queen range, they did it as a "hot fix" (no updating required). What this meant is that there is a hidden set of changes from the servers that always apply to your map (and mods too). There are ways to work around it.
tl;dr - I am ranting about SC2's new (IMO, unneeded) streaming game client thing.
Though not to get too off topic, but yeah they screwed up somewhere. Liberty Multi is supposed to apply to custom games but for some reason, I guess it's not.
On August 01 2012 13:49 Plexa wrote: Okay I did a little digging and I found the problem.
There are two copies of unit information in the editor - Liberty and LibertyMulti. Liberty uses old data and LibertyMulti uses the correct data. I don't know how the fuck this was screwed up, but wow..
It's always been like this.
What happens is that Liberty Multi is "supposed" to overwrite Liberty if in a multiplayer game (rather, it should because in single player games [well the campaign forexample], "Liberty Multi" doesn't exist).
I am guessing for whatever reason, custom games lack Liberty Multi (or at least the latest one).
I really dislike streaming or a lot of this server side stuff that was introduced with the Queen buff (from a modding point of view, it means a ton of stuff that can affect your map but you don't know how it affects it because there are some stuff server side).
For example, if you wanted to change queen range, you can't without having to completely having to replace the whole queen weapon due to the server side patch always overwriting what you do on your map (at least I think so, I remember having to do that actually).
Okay then it looks like at the moment this isn't occurring. Ugh.
4.) Some games appearing in the “Join Game” list of the “Custom Games” menu on the StarCraft II side of the client will cause that game to be played using an older balance. As a temporary work around please start lobbies from the “Create Game” page.
Quoting blizzard above. I've never had the problem, so I checked the SC2 forums. The games you create don't suffer from this issue apparently.
4.) Some games appearing in the “Join Game” list of the “Custom Games” menu on the StarCraft II side of the client will cause that game to be played using an older balance. As a temporary work around please start lobbies from the “Create Game” page.
Quoting blizzard above. I've never had the problem, so I checked the SC2 forums. The games you create don't suffer from this issue apparently.
So it's still safe to 1v1 people and stuff.
so this was answered by blizzard already and people had to speculate for 10 pages? wow
4.) Some games appearing in the “Join Game” list of the “Custom Games” menu on the StarCraft II side of the client will cause that game to be played using an older balance. As a temporary work around please start lobbies from the “Create Game” page.
Quoting blizzard above. I've never had the problem, so I checked the SC2 forums. The games you create don't suffer from this issue apparently.
So it's still safe to 1v1 people and stuff.
so this was answered by blizzard already and people had to speculate for 10 pages? wow
Can we get this edited on the OP? This is worthwhile information everyone should know until this gets patched.
4.) Some games appearing in the “Join Game” list of the “Custom Games” menu on the StarCraft II side of the client will cause that game to be played using an older balance. As a temporary work around please start lobbies from the “Create Game” page.
Quoting blizzard above. I've never had the problem, so I checked the SC2 forums. The games you create don't suffer from this issue apparently.
So it's still safe to 1v1 people and stuff.
Just tried it that fixed way on daybreak and roaches are still 1 supply.
4.) Some games appearing in the “Join Game” list of the “Custom Games” menu on the StarCraft II side of the client will cause that game to be played using an older balance. As a temporary work around please start lobbies from the “Create Game” page.
Quoting blizzard above. I've never had the problem, so I checked the SC2 forums. The games you create don't suffer from this issue apparently.
So it's still safe to 1v1 people and stuff.
Just tried it that fixed way on daybreak and roaches are still 1 supply.
Just double-checked. Made a game from this screen:
Did Blizzard just crash e-sports? Am I missing something here?
All the tournaments games are custom games, right? You can't play the game without patching, right? Therefore, until the fix, there can't be no competitive matches of any sort?
On August 01 2012 21:50 An2quamaraN wrote: Did Blizzard just crash e-sports? Am I missing something here?
All the tournaments games are custom games, right? You can't play the game without patching, right? Therefore, until the fix, there can't be no competitive matches of any sort?
No, there's a workaround. See the post above yours. And this will probably get patched asap anyways.
On August 01 2012 21:50 An2quamaraN wrote: Did Blizzard just crash e-sports? Am I missing something here?
All the tournaments games are custom games, right? You can't play the game without patching, right? Therefore, until the fix, there can't be no competitive matches of any sort?
No, there's a workaround. See the post above yours. And this will probably get patched asap anyways.
The work around is incorrect, Daybreak LE on the US server still suffers from the old patch data problem even if you create it through the Create Game interface and there may be others so it's a bit of a mine field.
On August 01 2012 21:50 An2quamaraN wrote: Did Blizzard just crash e-sports? Am I missing something here?
All the tournaments games are custom games, right? You can't play the game without patching, right? Therefore, until the fix, there can't be no competitive matches of any sort?
No, there's a workaround. See the post above yours. And this will probably get patched asap anyways.
The work around is incorrect, Daybreak LE on the US server still suffers from the old patch data problem even if you create it through the Create Game interface and there may be others so it's a bit of a mine field.
Not sure what to say. I literally just played a custom on Daybreak LE using this method and everything was fine.
(And just played another custom with a friend to test. Everything's good. Make sure you don't have "Join Game" selected when you do this.)
On August 01 2012 21:50 An2quamaraN wrote: Did Blizzard just crash e-sports? Am I missing something here?
All the tournaments games are custom games, right? You can't play the game without patching, right? Therefore, until the fix, there can't be no competitive matches of any sort?
No, there's a workaround. See the post above yours. And this will probably get patched asap anyways.
The work around is incorrect, Daybreak LE on the US server still suffers from the old patch data problem even if you create it through the Create Game interface and there may be others so it's a bit of a mine field.
Not sure what to say. I literally just played a custom on Daybreak LE using this method and everything was fine.
(And just played another custom with a friend to test. Everything's good. Make sure you don't have "Join Game" selected when you do this.)
Tested it and the plot thickens:
Launching it with Create Game... old patch
Bookmarking it first then launching it with Create Game... new patch
On August 01 2012 21:50 An2quamaraN wrote: Did Blizzard just crash e-sports? Am I missing something here?
All the tournaments games are custom games, right? You can't play the game without patching, right? Therefore, until the fix, there can't be no competitive matches of any sort?
No, there's a workaround. See the post above yours. And this will probably get patched asap anyways.
The work around is incorrect, Daybreak LE on the US server still suffers from the old patch data problem even if you create it through the Create Game interface and there may be others so it's a bit of a mine field.
Not sure what to say. I literally just played a custom on Daybreak LE using this method and everything was fine.
(And just played another custom with a friend to test. Everything's good. Make sure you don't have "Join Game" selected when you do this.)
Tested it and the plot thickens:
Launching it with Create Game... old patch
Bookmarking it first then launching it with Create Game... new patch
I just ran WCS Daybreak LE which was not bookmarked and that had the new patch data as well.
I just realized that the create game menu only allows you to play blizzard maps. All custom maps go into the arcade where the patch data is definitely not being loaded correctly. So I take that back. This horks any competitions going on at the moment until they patch it.
(I'm not sure if the above is intentional behavior. A map maker would know better than me.)
On August 01 2012 21:50 An2quamaraN wrote: Did Blizzard just crash e-sports? Am I missing something here?
All the tournaments games are custom games, right? You can't play the game without patching, right? Therefore, until the fix, there can't be no competitive matches of any sort?
No, there's a workaround. See the post above yours. And this will probably get patched asap anyways.
The work around is incorrect, Daybreak LE on the US server still suffers from the old patch data problem even if you create it through the Create Game interface and there may be others so it's a bit of a mine field.
Not sure what to say. I literally just played a custom on Daybreak LE using this method and everything was fine.
(And just played another custom with a friend to test. Everything's good. Make sure you don't have "Join Game" selected when you do this.)
Tested it and the plot thickens:
Launching it with Create Game... old patch
Bookmarking it first then launching it with Create Game... new patch
I just ran WCS Daybreak LE which was not bookmarked and that had the new patch data as well.
I just realized that the create game menu only allows you to play blizzard maps. All custom maps go into the arcade where the patch data is definitely not being loaded correctly. So I take that back. This horks any competitions going on at the moment until they patch it.
On August 01 2012 21:50 An2quamaraN wrote: Did Blizzard just crash e-sports? Am I missing something here?
All the tournaments games are custom games, right? You can't play the game without patching, right? Therefore, until the fix, there can't be no competitive matches of any sort?
No, there's a workaround. See the post above yours. And this will probably get patched asap anyways.
The work around is incorrect, Daybreak LE on the US server still suffers from the old patch data problem even if you create it through the Create Game interface and there may be others so it's a bit of a mine field.
Not sure what to say. I literally just played a custom on Daybreak LE using this method and everything was fine.
(And just played another custom with a friend to test. Everything's good. Make sure you don't have "Join Game" selected when you do this.)
Tested it and the plot thickens:
Launching it with Create Game... old patch
Bookmarking it first then launching it with Create Game... new patch
I just ran WCS Daybreak LE which was not bookmarked and that had the new patch data as well.
I just realized that the create game menu only allows you to play blizzard maps. All custom maps go into the arcade where the patch data is definitely not being loaded correctly. So I take that back. This horks any competitions going on at the moment until they patch it.
not WCS, WCS is fine, normal Daybreak LE is not.
Yeah I ran both Daybreak LE and WCS Daybreak LE. Both worked. Bookmarked and non-bookmarked. I haven't had an instance where I've gotten the old patch data as long as I created the game via the Create Game menu.
On August 01 2012 21:50 An2quamaraN wrote: Did Blizzard just crash e-sports? Am I missing something here?
All the tournaments games are custom games, right? You can't play the game without patching, right? Therefore, until the fix, there can't be no competitive matches of any sort?
No, there's a workaround. See the post above yours. And this will probably get patched asap anyways.
The work around is incorrect, Daybreak LE on the US server still suffers from the old patch data problem even if you create it through the Create Game interface and there may be others so it's a bit of a mine field.
Not sure what to say. I literally just played a custom on Daybreak LE using this method and everything was fine.
(And just played another custom with a friend to test. Everything's good. Make sure you don't have "Join Game" selected when you do this.)
Tested it and the plot thickens:
Launching it with Create Game... old patch
Bookmarking it first then launching it with Create Game... new patch
I just ran WCS Daybreak LE which was not bookmarked and that had the new patch data as well.
I just realized that the create game menu only allows you to play blizzard maps. All custom maps go into the arcade where the patch data is definitely not being loaded correctly. So I take that back. This horks any competitions going on at the moment until they patch it.
not WCS, WCS is fine, normal Daybreak LE is not.
Yeah I ran both Daybreak LE and WCS Daybreak LE. Both worked. Bookmarked and non-bookmarked. I haven't had an instance where I've gotten the old patch data as long as I created the game via the Create Game menu.
What method are you using to check? I'm just launching in as zerg and checking overlord speed.
On August 01 2012 21:50 An2quamaraN wrote: Did Blizzard just crash e-sports? Am I missing something here?
All the tournaments games are custom games, right? You can't play the game without patching, right? Therefore, until the fix, there can't be no competitive matches of any sort?
No, there's a workaround. See the post above yours. And this will probably get patched asap anyways.
The work around is incorrect, Daybreak LE on the US server still suffers from the old patch data problem even if you create it through the Create Game interface and there may be others so it's a bit of a mine field.
Not sure what to say. I literally just played a custom on Daybreak LE using this method and everything was fine.
(And just played another custom with a friend to test. Everything's good. Make sure you don't have "Join Game" selected when you do this.)
Tested it and the plot thickens:
Launching it with Create Game... old patch
Bookmarking it first then launching it with Create Game... new patch
I just ran WCS Daybreak LE which was not bookmarked and that had the new patch data as well.
I just realized that the create game menu only allows you to play blizzard maps. All custom maps go into the arcade where the patch data is definitely not being loaded correctly. So I take that back. This horks any competitions going on at the moment until they patch it.
not WCS, WCS is fine, normal Daybreak LE is not.
Yeah I ran both Daybreak LE and WCS Daybreak LE. Both worked. Bookmarked and non-bookmarked. I haven't had an instance where I've gotten the old patch data as long as I created the game via the Create Game menu.
What method are you using to check? I'm just launching in as zerg and checking overlord speed.
Starcraft -> Custom Games -> Create Game -> (Select Map) -> Create Game -> Start Game
And then check OL speed + roach supply on larva. 0.59 and 2 respecitvely each time.
And now that I'm futzing around with it, some arcade maps are fine too. Just spot-checked GSL Metropolis through the Arcade interface and everything seems to be in working order.
On August 01 2012 22:19 Kambing wrote: And now that I'm futzing around with it, some arcade maps are fine too. Just spot-checked GSL Metropolis through the Arcade interface and everything seems to be in working order.
Yeah I think it's completely unrelated, and judging by the fact that we're getting different results it might even be client-related, because I'm 100% sure I'm going through the same motions as you and getting 0.47 speed overlords and 3 range queens.
On August 01 2012 22:19 Kambing wrote: And now that I'm futzing around with it, some arcade maps are fine too. Just spot-checked GSL Metropolis through the Arcade interface and everything seems to be in working order.
Yeah I think it's completely unrelated, and judging by the fact that we're getting different results it might even be client-related, because I'm 100% sure I'm going through the same motions as you and getting 0.47 speed overlords and 3 range queens.
o_O
Sec. Recording this so you can see exactly what I'm doing. That would hurt my brain a bit if it's client related.
Ok, so it looks like when I created a custom game from the create game menu directly that it caused the old patch data to be used (0:08, 1:32) . This was repeatable until I switched the filter (to bookmarks) which caused the map to use the new patch data (2:25). At 3:25, I jump into Daybreak LE directly after clicking create game and it uses the old balance data. At 4:10, I click create game, switch the filter to Blizzard maps, and then I get the new data. Making one final new game at 5:30 with the filter already set to Blizzard maps gives me the new data.
Looking back, it seems like the popular filter s the one that is selected whenever I get the old data. Doing one more test explicitly selecting the game with the popular filter enabled gives me the old data. You want to check to see if you get the same behavior?
Select a game from Create Game with the Popular filter on vs. the Blizzard or Bookmarked filters on.
Ok, so it looks like when I created a custom game from the create game menu directly that it caused the old patch data to be used (0:08, 1:32) . This was repeatable until I switched the filter (to bookmarks) which caused the map to use the new patch data (2:25). At 3:25, I jump into Daybreak LE directly after clicking create game and it uses the old balance data. At 4:10, I click create game, switch the filter to Blizzard maps, and then I get the new data. Making one final new game at 5:30 with the filter already set to Blizzard maps gives me the new data.
Looking back, it seems like the popular filter s the one that is selected whenever I get the old data. Doing one more test explicitly selecting the game with the popular filter enabled gives me the old data. You want to check to see if you get the same behavior?
Select a game from Create Game with the Popular filter on vs. the Blizzard or Bookmarked filters on.
Yes, accurate, going through popular gives me old data, going through blizzard maps goes through new data.
Edit: I have to leave soon, but I still want to test if searching has any affect, but If I don't reply it's just because I've had to leave.
It's weird. I just tried this on Cloud Kingdom LE and it appears to work fine on all filters (at least, the popular one where Daybreak LE breaks). So it's a map + filter specific bug apparently.
Okay so searching 100% of the time (With Daybreak LE) is giving me old data as well regardless of which filter I have on, are you able to recreate that? Because that's definitely a problem.
#4 Is Incomplete and not sufficient to ensure you will get the correct patch data. You have to ensure you're using Create Game section as well as:
Making sure that you have Blizzard Maps set as your map filter and select it from there.
OR
If you have to search, search then Bookmark the map, THEN select the My Bookmarks filter, and create game from there.
Any other way seems to have a chance to load the old patch data depending on which map it is, though Daybreak LE on US seems to be the only one confirmed thus far.
Tried playing WCS Ohana LE on customs and stim pack costs 150/150. I tried the blizzard work around where you load the map thru the "create game" page and it still used old balance data. Tried bookmarking and the other filters mentioned above and still getting the same result.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/mVey5.png)
