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Update
Sigh. I get it now. I get why TL Mods hate Balance Discussion. It brings about this mindset that will stagnate evolution of the game. We are the TL community. We are the harbringers of evolution in the foreign community. We need to embrace this and shun all views which dilute this mindset. Posts in this thread should be more thought about than offhand remarks about Terran muling to victory or overpopulating GSL. Thus Templates.
Posting Templates:
Types of Posts:
Complaint
Problem:
Solution:
Side Effects:
eg) "Problem: Zerg needs to be able to scout better in the early game
Solution: Overseer at Hatchery Tech
Side Effects: Contaminate will see more use in ZvZ."
What Not To Do:
"Problem: Theres too many Terrans in GSL
Solution: Complain on the internet until Blizzard nerfs the shit
out of Mules and Marines
Side Effects: No one gives a shit about Starcraft anymore"
Metagame Observation:
Observation:
eg) "Observation: I feel like Protoss either win PvT with 2 base
Colossus or they lose."
What Not To Do:
"Observation: Terran Never Lose"
Metagame Evolution
Evolution:
eg) "Evolution: 1 Gate, Immortal Based openers with delayed tech and more emphasis
on gateway/immortal is the future of PvT."
What Not To Do:
"Evolution: Protoss can never expand against a Terran"
A Personal Plea From Techno To Protoss Players:
Protoss Underpowered is the flavour of the past month or so. This is fueled by GSL caliber Protosses not occupying 1st place on the podium. Make no mistake, if MC won GSL Code S, no matter his playstyle, this theme would not be half as popular as it is with MC in code B. I say: "Fuck MC! Make your own Protoss!". We've seen Zerg evolve immensely in the time since release, the same is possible for Protoss. I'm not going to sit here and tell you how to play, but I am gonna tell you how to think; "Like a champion". What makes Starcraft awesome? Metagame changes. This "lull" in Protoss victories (at the highest of highest level), is merely an oppurtunity for the lesser known, younger, ballsier Protosses to come out of the shadows and wow everyone with new playstyles. Embrace your failures, my friends.
Hey. I asked Chill about forming a specified thread for all the balance discussion to take place in.
Original Message From Chill: Yea sure why not? Show nested quote +Original Message From Techno:
Hey.
I realise that Balance Discussion is often frowned upon on TL. I completely understand this rule.
However, as I'm sure you know, balance discussion is a tempting siren of discussion. Most threads devolve into or are just shrouded balance discussion.
Would TL ever consider a specified thread where players can actually discuss balance? This way the "chaos" will be penned into one thread. I think good rules for the thread would be strictly legitimate "Balance Discussion", and not "Balace Whining". Hyperboles and repetitive denial of racial viability would be frowned upon in this thread.
I think a good moderation technique would be to have mods & respected users (up to you how to determine) could essentially "+1 or -1" comments. Then players scores for either the thread or their total scores could be displayed.
Gl out on zee battlefield,
/salute my fellow Canadian
- Jason
Rules:
1. Balance Discussion, not Balance Whining
This means no "OMG TERRAN OP!" posts. Make specific claims about what you think is imbalanced and how they could be addressed. It's quite obvious to most that the game is not drastically imbalanced so acting like it is will be frowned upon.
2. No excessive hyperbole.
"There is nothing Zerg can do against this. This game is broken beyond repair. Blizzard are dumbasses."
3. No Repetitive Denial of Racial Viability
If you say "How do you deal with Colossus as Terran" and someone says "Vikings", don't just say "Vikings will just die to stalkers" over and over again for every suggestion people give you.
4. No False Claims of "Proof"
Balance is always open for discussion, even 5 rax reaper!. So don't say "Blasted PvP Code A finals proves Protoss imba!"
Lets try to keep it civil. We're all just a buncha nerds who love to play Starcraft. I'm sure we'd get along in real life, so why can't a Zerg and a Terran agree online?
Update:
My thoughts as a macro focused Terran:
- If you can build 14 drones at a time with injects, BFH seems about right.... Maybe we shouldnt "slow" terran any longer (slower BFH with the already nerfed 90 seconds (!) stim).... but Im scared of giving Zerg anything right now ... ;D
- Protoss; without the 1/1/1 I see no reason for complaints against Terran. If you have problems with Protoss suggest thought out changes in this topic
- What about cool down free manual chargelots? You couldnt auto charge the whole map, only things in range; but if you made a line of pylons/probes? you could chain charges between them. this would effectively exponentially increase the Protoss skill cap, and allow charge harassment, in and out of warp prisms...
I'll start us off with a discussion topic:
If it wasnt for the 1/1/1 all in, how would you guys feel about the balance of TvP?
I feel like at the highest level, Terran hits every EMP and is always positioned well. Combine this with the ability to drop and I think it's a slightly Terran favoured matchup in GM league and in Korea Master League +. But at the same time I feel like in NA's mid/low master league and in Diamond especially, most Terrans cannot deal with even 2 base Colossus, let alone 3 base Colossus + HT, therefore I feel like at all but the highest (and perhaps lowest) levels, TvP is fairly strongly Protoss favoured in the current metagame. "You just engaged poorly" is a hard pill to swallow that Diamond/Low Master Terrans are often told when asking for help.
I think the things I dislike about TvP is how quickly it ends and how little strategic positioning there is. There is typically 1 or 2 major engagements which end the game. Basically in the lategame the whole game is EMP. If the Terran has the right units, hits his EMP and micros against chargelots, he has a good chance of coming out on top. But if you miss the EMPs you lose the game, and it's a similar situation with Vikings. Though they are better than corrupters, you still want to have more resource value in Vikings than the Protoss has in Colossus, and they have seperate upgrades. All in all these things add up to "2 Gate robo expand -> colossus -> push and take a third -> Chargelot/Templar" being a super strong gameplan that isn't really imbalanced and doesnt warrant any Terran buffs, but I feel does make the matchup Protoss favoured in leagues where the Terrans simply dont have the speed to do all those great things Terran can do.
What're your thoughts?
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I feel that this thread will have tons of balance whine despite what you say.
The game should be balanced around the absolute HIGHEST level of play.
That's GM Korea because everyone should aspire to be the best therefore it should be balance around that.
As for EU/NA people having problems, that's just a skill thing.
Nobody would ask for a platinum player's opinions on balance right?
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I think Protoss may be a little for favored in the TvP matchup if it is played standard (no 1 base all in). If the protoss is aware and good, they should be able to stop nearly all drops before significant army is done, and they can have observers out on top of the terran army to see where the terran and the ghosts are. I think TvP is really up to the terran to outplay the protoss. In lower levels up to masters it is this way, in high levels it is about even I believe.
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On August 16 2011 07:00 Condor Hero wrote:
I feel that this thread will have tons of balance whine despite what you say.
The game should be balanced around the absolute HIGHEST level of play.
That's GM Korea because everyone should aspire to be the best therefore it should be balance around that.
As for EU/NA people having problems, that's just a skill thing.
Nobody would ask for a platinum player's opinions on balance right?
Yes I agree. I propose no balance changes with my thoughts on TvP.
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Threads that have nothing to do with balance get infested with balance whines and trolls. This thread will fail and it won't be your fault.
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On August 16 2011 07:04 QTIP. wrote:
Threads that have nothing to do with balance get infested with balance whines and trolls. This thread will fail and it won't be your fault.
The only thing wrong with it so far is this post! 
I need your guys' help to keep the Hivemind of TL happy!
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Well concerning the TvP match-up as you described it, first of all I think its impossible to have every match-up balanced for every skill level. Yeah the protoss army control is probably easier, as protoss doesn't have as many micro tricks like constant kiting.
It can be frustrating, but you just have to realize that you can overcome it by just getting better and more like those GM guys. Its best to stop thinking that its your imba at your skill level and just start working on your biggest problems. I used to do weird mech timings because I wasn't confident with bio, but as soon as I started to consider positioning and realized the importance of map control, it became a lot easier.
I'm high masters myself, and fight GM players quite often on ladder.
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Techno I entirely agree with you on TvP MU, you have to be really skilled to "make it happen" when Protosses mostly don't have much to do.
I know the game is balanced at high level, but it is really frustrating for low master / high diamond like myself to lose so badly when the "terran magic" does not happen.
Even more frustrating when there is no magic needed from the protoss...
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On August 16 2011 07:06 Techno wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 07:04 QTIP. wrote:
Threads that have nothing to do with balance get infested with balance whines and trolls. This thread will fail and it won't be your fault. The only thing wrong with it so far is this post! I need your guys' help to keep the Hivemind of TL happy!
Your optimism is commendable. Best of luck.
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On August 16 2011 07:06 Bagi wrote:
Well concerning the TvP match-up as you described it, first of all I think its impossible to have every match-up balanced for every skill level. Yeah the protoss army control is probably easier, as protoss doesn't have as many micro tricks like constant kiting.
It can be frustrating, but you just have to realize that you can overcome it by just getting better and more like those GM guys. Its best to stop thinking that its your imba at your skill level and just start working on your biggest problems. I used to do weird mech timings because I wasn't confident with bio, but as soon as I started to consider positioning and realized the importance of map control, it became a lot easier.
Yup. I feel like I agree with everything you've said here. My thoughts on balance don't really apply to me. I hit most of my EMPs, do drops and constant kiting. I lose when I miss one of these things, but I know why. When I do all of these things it seems quite balanced at my level, but at the level above me, it seems like Terran tends to win.
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i don't see the problem,
a terran need good emps to win against a late game Protoss army
a protoss need good force fields to survive terran early aggression
etc...
and yes balance only matter for the highest level of play.
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On August 16 2011 07:07 Xenogears wrote:
Techno I entirely agree with you on TvP MU, you have to be really skilled to "make it happen" when Protosses mostly don't have much to do.
I know the game is balanced at high level, but it is really frustrating for low master / high diamond like myself to lose so badly when the "terran magic" does not happen.
Even more frustrating when there is no magic needed from the protoss...
Hey. Thanks for the post! In the future you should just not talk about what Protoss needs to do at all, cause it's only gonna upset people. I don't want Zergs tellin me that siegin tanks is ez pz so us Terrans shouldnt tell Protoss that charging zealots is ezpz.
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blue flame hellion is too good imo against terran and zerg, a teir one unit that only cost 100 minerals should not be able to clear out an entire worker line in seconds, and there is no other counter part seen in the game currently. Bangling drops comes to mind, but zerg has to reseach ov speed, drop, and melee weapons +2 in order to have the same effect as two blue hellions. Hellions should cost gas or blue flame research should require an armory.
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On August 16 2011 07:09 Buzzo wrote:
i don't see the problem,
a terran need good emps to win against a late game Protoss army
a protoss need good force fields to survive terran early aggression
etc...
and yes balance only matter for the highest level of play.
I'm not really claiming theres a problem, I'm just discussing my thoughts on TvP at different skill levels. I will re iterate: I do not think balance changes are needed in response to my thoughts outlined in the OP.
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the thread not even started and we already got 2 protoss easy mode posts:
"Techno I entirely agree with you on TvP MU, you have to be really skilled to "make it happen" when Protosses mostly don't have much to do.
I know the game is balanced at high level, but it is really frustrating for low master / high diamond like myself to lose so badly when the "terran magic" does not happen.
Even more frustrating when there is no magic needed from the protoss..."
and
"Yeah the protoss army control is probably easier, as protoss doesn't have as many micro tricks like constant kiting."
stop with this, or this thread is doomed
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On August 16 2011 07:10 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:
blue flame hellion is too good imo against terran and zerg, a teir one unit that only cost 100 minerals should not be able to clear out an entire worker line in seconds, and there is no other counter part seen in the game currently. Bangling drops comes to mind, but zerg has to reseach ov speed, drop, and melee weapons +2 in order to have the same effect as two blue hellions. Hellions should cost gas or blue flame research should require an armory.
Hey thanks for the post! This is exactly the type of thing I want to talk about. I do have a response however.
Terrans sacrifice more than most Zergs realise to get Blue Flame Hellions.
Mostly it drastically lowers the marine count, making mutalisks much more effective, and secondly it delays the first tank push which is often the maker or breaker of the matchup. It does force many things from the Zerg (sim city, roaches), but I can't help but feel like it is completely beatable for Zerg.
EDIT: Speaking of which, I had a zerg get 4 queens crazy fast which completely deflected both my BFH runby and BFH drop. This hurt me more than I thought it would because since my marine count was low I had an exceptionally troubling time against his mutalisks and ultimately lost the game to them.
Oh and my TvT winrate is ridiculously high and I always go 1/1/1 siege mode expand with a viking scout (no scan, bitches!) -> kill the dropship/banshee with rallied viking -> go contain him and/or take a fast third.
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Yeah I have wondered about this for a long time myself. It seems like all the micro is in the terran's hands during the late game. Which admittedly makes it hard for the terran player, but it is nice to know that they do have the tools to win even engagements if they have strong enough micro. I wish there was more micro potential for toss to even it out.
One big example of this is the ghost design.
EMP = 10 range
Snipe = 10 range
Now we look at the HT
Storm = 9 range
Feedback = 9 range
This shows that if both players have the same skills, the terran player will get off an EMP before a storm can occur. But this puts a lot of pressure on the terran to land them. If instead each spell had 9 range, then the toss would be required to micro just as much, making the engagement much more interesting and fair for all levels.
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yeah I agree with the OP on the PvT analysis. But aren't the fast battler in all races?
I mean zerglings and banelings melt to siege tank fire, marines melt to banelings and siege tanks melt to friendly fire from siege tanks.
In ZvP is a bit longer battles as the roach and stalker are more durable, but its pretty fast as well. I just think generally the + armor damage type is causing the problem. In Brood War you had diminishing damage due to armor, in SC2 you have increasing damage due to armor.
The only units that did more than 25 damage were the Archons, DT's, Ravers, carriers and sieged tanks. In SC2 that number is Colossus, Archons, DT's Reavers, immortals, sieged tanks, ultralisk, thors and even hellions with blue flame upgrade.
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If you exclude the 1/1/1, PvT is in a decent state I suppose. The only problems with it are general problems with the Protoss race, like the WG nerf making non-allin aggression almost impossible for Protoss in the early game, and the HT standing in relation to the Ghost and Infestor.
I feel like the KA removal went overboard in that it upset the relative balance between the casters (which was the primary argument in favor of that change, funnily enough). As it stands, HTs have arguably similar utility to Ghosts and Infestors; however, they cost more time and resources to unlock, move significantly slower (as fast as a Battlecruiser in fact) and need their primary spell researched. So I wouldn't mind a slight reduction to the effectiveness of Ghosts/Infestors, or a buff to HTs. Movement speed buff would be pretty cool, as with KA removal, they basically lost any mobility Warpgates afford them, without any compensation.
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On August 16 2011 07:18 Fig wrote:
Yeah I have wondered about this for a long time myself. It seems like all the micro is in the terran's hands during the late game. Which admittedly makes it hard for the terran player, but it is nice to know that they do have the tools to win even engagements if they have strong enough micro. I wish there was more micro potential for toss to even it out.
One big example of this is the ghost design.
EMP = 10 range
Snipe = 10 range
Now we look at the HT
Storm = 9 range
Feedback = 9 range
This shows that if both players have the same skills, the terran player will get off an EMP before a storm can occur. But this puts a lot of pressure on the terran to land them. If instead each spell had 9 range, then the toss would be required to micro just as much, making the engagement much more interesting and fair for all levels.
Edit:
Holy frick i ALWAYS thought it was 9 range! so they have even slightly more of an edge over HT (like they're supposed to as soft to hard counters in TvP) and actually outrange Neural/fungals o.o wow didn't know
Edit2:
Anyways, I honestly think the 1/1/1 push is fine, yeah sure it's a bit hard but these days most pros are going for economic builds as Protoss anyways aren't they?
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EPT
