Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 5

On August 16 2011 08:12 Bluerain wrote:
To me, I think sc2 is horribly difficult to balance just due to the new macro mechanics.

- Zerg: inject is really hard to manage especially mid-late game when u need to defend several bases against drops/warp ins while managing ur army and spreading creep. but with high apm i supposed anything is possible. it's a possible overpowered mechanic if used correctly but if neglected, zerg becomes a really weak race. this is prolly why we see certain zergs DOMINATE when they are playing well but other times they just completely crumble. i think the addition of a defensive siege unit may aid zerg macro as it allows u to focus more apm into injects.

- Terran: mules are really good and work great especially with terran since it gives tons of minerals to make marines which versatile and cost effective. i think on larger maps, mules may be imbalanced once multiple orbitals are made, especially if there is a gold base. whut does every1 think about making mules not be able to mine the same patch as scvs as a slight nerf?

- Protoss: seems to be a weak race as their macro mechanic doesnt seem all that powerful. their strength seems to lie in being able to get a nice base economy fast and getting fast upgrades so their smaller army becomes more effective. as ppl get more effective in using inject and more abusive with multiple orbitals, i see toss becoming really weak. maybe they can buff chronoboost and have it give a slow boost to buildings that are warping in. this could add in some cool dynamics such as fast warping in cannons offensively. maybe shield batteries can be added in again in future expansions. warping in shield batteries during battle would be so OP but interesting

in closing, i feel like larger maps could help with balancing the macro mechanics as it gives players more time to reactive to the large upswings that the mechanics offer.

On August 16 2011 08:16 Blunk wrote:
Hey guys.

I'd like to address the Infestor situation.

I don't think that they are too strong, or imbalanced as a unit. What I think is just wrong is how they are placed in the tech tree.

When a Terran player or Protoss player wants to respond to infestors they have to tech to Ghost and High Templar respectively. Both the Ghost Tech and High Templar Tech are at the end of a tech tree.

The Infestor however is on the way to the Hive. I think this is really wrong. The infestor isn't too strong, but it is too much of a 'no risk, only benefits' kind of unit.

I would fix this by making the Hydralisk Den the requirement for the Hive instead of the Infestation Pit. Also, I want to say I do not play zerg, so I don't know what the requirement for the Hive should be instead of the Infestation Pit to keep everything fair. The Hydralisk Den could easily be an awful choice, it seemed the best to me but once again, I really wouldn't know.

Any thoughts?

On August 16 2011 07:18 Fig wrote:
Yeah I have wondered about this for a long time myself. It seems like all the micro is in the terran's hands during the late game. Which admittedly makes it hard for the terran player, but it is nice to know that they do have the tools to win even engagements if they have strong enough micro. I wish there was more micro potential for toss to even it out.

One big example of this is the ghost design.
EMP = 10 range
Snipe = 10 range

Now we look at the HT
Storm = 9 range
Feedback = 9 range

This shows that if both players have the same skills, the terran player will get off an EMP before a storm can occur. But this puts a lot of pressure on the terran to land them. If instead each spell had 9 range, then the toss would be required to micro just as much, making the engagement much more interesting and fair for all levels.

On August 16 2011 08:20 Teiwaz wrote:
The biggest balance problem I have with Ghosts is that EMP (which I would call their "main spell") does not require research whereas both Storm & Neural have to be researched. It's more a little thing but would IMO would mean a huge deal.

For those of you saying that having an Observer nullifies the range advantage EMP has, have you thought about two things:
-) sight range of the Observer
-) Ravens
If the Observer is positioned over the middle of a Protoss army he wouldn't see the Ghost before he EMP's, and if you have the Observer in front of your army it will get spotted by Ravens and shot down by Vikings/Marines.

On August 16 2011 08:22 Clog wrote:


Yeah, I just really really don't see the *need* for Ghosts to outrange High Templars. Seems logical that they would have the same range.

On August 16 2011 08:22 Kajarn wrote:


Ghosts are so incredibly easy to get I don't understand your complaint. They require 1 building and a tech-lab rax while only costing 100 gas.

Sure Toss has to tech all the way to Templar. But I do belive Infestors aren't too much of a problem against Toss till they have 10+, which is plenty of time to expect Templar.

On August 16 2011 08:25 ProxySilmaril wrote:
Today I was thinking about the Fungal and I came to the conclusion, that fungal is more effective then a psi storm, because the units cant move anymore, and then next fungal will hit them to death! I think fungal is OP.. I would like to see that fungal needs more energy or something like this!

On August 16 2011 08:24 Joey Wheeler wrote:
Protoss in PvZ - weak midgame is made up with an incredibly strong late game. One misclick with Infestors and you're fucked. Watch koreans ladder and every game you see their infestor balls get killed by psi storms or feedback, leaving the same shit units that Zerg have been hating for months. That's why Zerg players must use their mobility to deny bases or else their expensive gas units simply become innificient and crushed by archons, colossus, HT, blink stalkers, void rays, you name it. Again, the only reason the winrate isn't much higher for Protoss is because Zerg have found multiple ways to stop the late game transition.

Terran in any matchup - Terran requires very little gas ever, and yet conveniently also are able to get free minerals. It's ridiculous when you see people abuse this. Watch high level Terrans playing, constant drops with marines and hellions are thrown away while Terran is not affected by that loss whatsoever. Terran can get an army so fast with MULEs that the two ways to beat a Terran are:

1) come out significiantly ahead in an egagement and finish him off
2) get him to mine out until he can't afford anything.

If you reach the late game this is the only way to actually beat a Terran. While Infestor/Brood Lord is efficient against marine/tank/thor/viking, Terran can simply throw away vikings until Brood Lords are dead, rinse and repeat the same process until you finally get weared out from constant harassment all over the map which you can't deal with becase you can't have supply taken by lings or mutalisks.

Terran basically makes one large stalemate in any game.

On August 16 2011 08:25 Novalisk wrote:
What do you guys think about Orbital Command? I've seen multiple pros openly state that "Mules are OP", even Terrans. Is it because:

1. Mules give too much for their cost?
2. Scans cover too much range?
3. Orbital Command has too much energy?
4. Low tier(mineral heavy) Terran units are too strong?
5. People aren't forcing enough scans in the current metagame?
6. People aren't forcing enough Planetary Fortresses in the current metagame?
7. Is the Terran mineral line too hard to breach?
8. Is the OC upgrade too cheap?
9. None of the above?

On August 16 2011 08:28 AttackFromMars wrote:
While I do think the game is balanced in the terms of all races having equal chance to win, I do think the diffrent matchups has a few problems that could be addressed to make the game alot more fun, both to play and to view.

In ZvT, the best matchup in my eyes, the nummber of viable strategies is quite large for both sides, not just in the opening but in the entire game. Terran can go bio, mech, bio+mech, Air (to a certain degre) gosth+ mech, hellion+bio etc. The zerg dont have quite as many options but still quite alot. Lings, blings, mutas, blordls, ultras infestors, they all have their place truoghout the entire game.

I think this is probably why this is the best matchup in terms of winrate. With so many viable strats, there is such an plethora of ways to play the mu that the shifts in the metagame can always be paryed by the opponents. The only thing that could (and did go wrong) is if some kind of early pressure is to strong.

I think the problem with TvP is that there is not many viable ways to play the mu after a certain time in the game. In the early game both sides have some viable openings and some strong allins (and some very strong allins 1-1-1 =). After the 12-15 minute mark however, there is only one viable army composition for terran MMM+G. Likewise protoss HAS to go HT, Collo or HT+Collo. This makes the matchup rigid and boring and also makes the balance disscusion be about templar range vs gohst range. I Feel like if there was as many options as in ZvT in the matchup the debate about such details would be menigless as the games would have another level of strategic depth. Why is it like this? Well feedback kills thors and BCs so two of Terrans lategame units a renderd useless just like that. Sige tanks just dosent touch the toss army in the lategame. For toss I think the problem is the maruder wich hardcounters every unit exept Collosus + HT.

TL;DR
I think that many viable strategy options makes the game balance itself. I also think that this is the correct way to go about balancing if you want the game to be fun both for spectators and players.

On August 16 2011 08:29 Kajarn wrote:


1. Improve your Infestor control by walking 1 Infestor up to Fungal with the rest in the back. Watch Catz or Destiny for demonstration.

2. Improve your multitasking vs Terran. Infestors are slow and bad at stopping drops. If you have the AMP you could use Nydus defensively to stop constant dropping, to transfer around your infestors. Or learn to control Mutas and use that style to pick off dropships. Spread out overlords to allow your to recieve plenty of time to react. Actively replace killed off overlords to maintain map vision.