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the extreme aggression of terran vs zerg is very hard for me to deal with.
not many terrans can pull it off well, since it requires multiple drops as well as a slow push or harassing the front.
this style is best denoted by sC vs NesTea and MMA vs NesTea.
i think this is how Terrans should be playing against Zerg, well at this moment in time anyway. when you're attacking the zerg in multiple locations, you are in effect pushing him to make units instead of drones, which eventually cripples the zerg because Terran is macroing in the background.
i want this style against zerg to develop, since I feel passivity, in my mind at least, is an instant loss against zerg, when the zerg play his cards right, which no zergs seem to do except NesTea.
i'd like to see the metagame develop, but I feel the match up may be going Mech, esp. when I saw FXO.TheBest in the GSTL.
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I always thought that TvP was the most balanced MU...
But I think that EMP should have the same range as storm because the only way a lategame P army can get storms off is if the T misses his .1 second window of EMP...
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On August 16 2011 07:35 Techno wrote:
Ultimately this results in me winning 30 minute games with ~5 well executed engagements, and me losing 15 minute games with 1 bad engagement.
This is true for late-game yes. But I think this is (even more than  ) equalized by the tons of free-wins you can get by doing clever timing pushes (no, not 111).
Like early 2 ghost play completely crushes an early archon-tech-player or a slow colossus tech (with "slow" I mean that there are actually no colossi out yet lol).
Meaning, yes, in the lategame it's harder for terran to finish off a constantly re-warping toss, but in the midgame if terran gets the upper hand it's lights out.
Also terran doesn't actually need that many mineral-mining-scvs in the lategame, so doing real "economic damage" to a terran is really not that easy
This is no flame-bait btw, many terrans nowadays suicide scvs and rely on mules.
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Please please please don't compare storm and emp. Terran unit models are much smaller than their protoss counter parts and have much less HP emp isn't a terran's "storm". Think about an archon, you could only at most hit 2 archons with one emp while you could probably storm up to 20 units in a marine marauder ball.
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On August 16 2011 07:35 starmeat_ wrote:
i'd like to see the metagame develop, but I feel the match up may be going Mech, esp. when I saw FXO.TheBest in the GSTL.
The zerg's he played just handled mech poorly. They would have ran over his 3-4 thors and thus the rest of his army if they went mass muta. You can't engage a mech army on the ground with roaches when they have like 15 tanks, it was just silly of them to try so. If you force more thors with your mutas though your roaches become a lot more effective, so it's a balancing act which the zerg's failed at.
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On August 16 2011 07:38 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 07:35 Techno wrote:
Ultimately this results in me winning 30 minute games with ~5 well executed engagements, and me losing 15 minute games with 1 bad engagement. This is true for late-game yes. But I think this is (even more than ) equalized by the tons of free-wins you can get by doing clever timing pushes (no, not 111). Like early 2 ghost play completely crushes an early archon-tech-player or a slow colossus tech (with "slow" I mean that there are actually no colossi out yet lol). Meaning, yes, in the lategame it's harder for terran to finish off a constantly re-warping toss, but in the midgame if terran gets the upper hand it's lights out.
Ok, ok. But is that good game design?
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Ehh.. watching PvT lately really makes me cry. Excluding the 1/1/1, I still think TvP is still Terran favored.
If Terran can get 2-3 EMPs on the Protoss army, that's the equivalent of all their units being at half HP. Also, I think once Terran gets enough Vikings to 1 shot the Colo, they can just kite the MMM while the Vikings focus the Colo so the MMM doesn't get hit.
Also with the drops... dropping 2-3 places at once when the Medivacs are healing them.. it's sure to do a lot of damage unless you spot it before it happens.
It looks really Protoss favored at lower levels, I even thought it was Protoss favored for a while, but when I watch Korean Terrans with their micro, it's ridiculous how one sided they make their fights look.
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On August 16 2011 07:35 Demonace34 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 07:33 ClueLessx3 wrote:On August 16 2011 07:19 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On August 16 2011 07:18 Fig wrote:
Yeah I have wondered about this for a long time myself. It seems like all the micro is in the terran's hands during the late game. Which admittedly makes it hard for the terran player, but it is nice to know that they do have the tools to win even engagements if they have strong enough micro. I wish there was more micro potential for toss to even it out.
One big example of this is the ghost design.
EMP = 10 range
Snipe = 10 range
Now we look at the HT
Storm = 9 range
Feedback = 9 range
This shows that if both players have the same skills, the terran player will get off an EMP before a storm can occur. But this puts a lot of pressure on the terran to land them. If instead each spell had 9 range, then the toss would be required to micro just as much, making the engagement much more interesting and fair for all levels. Edit: Holy frick i ALWAYS thought it was 9 range! so they have even slightly more of an edge over HT (like they're supposed to as soft to hard counters in TvP) and actually outrange Neural/fungals o.o wow didn't know Edit2: Anyways, I honestly think the 1/1/1 push is fine, yeah sure it's a bit hard but these days most pros are going for economic builds as Protoss anyways aren't they? Don't forget emp splashes and the maximum centre is at 10 so in actual fact it can go up to 11 range It goes up to 12 actually 10+2, but I highly doubt people EMP good enough to hit HT at 12 range regularly.
Oh my bad thanks for fixing it up ^^
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On August 16 2011 07:35 starmeat_ wrote:
the extreme aggression of terran vs zerg is very hard for me to deal with.
not many terrans can pull it off well, since it required multiple drops as well as a slow push or harassment from the front.
this style is best denoted by sC vs NesTea and MMA vs NesTea.
i think this is how Terrans should be playing against Zerg, well at this moment in time anyway. when you're attacking the zerg in multiple locations, you are in effect pushing him to make units instead of drones, which eventually cripples the zerg because Terran is macroing the background.
I want this style against zerg to develop, since I feel passivity in my mind at least is an instant loss against zerg, when the zerg play his cards right, which no zergs seem to do except NesTea.
i'd like to see the metagame develop, but I feel the match up may be going Mech, esp. when I saw FXO.TheBest in the GSTL.
Well I think it goes more like this.
TvZ
Early game: Harass asap with either 2 rax pressure or feign pressure to make them produce extra lings and a spine or two.
Mid game: Either 3 tank Marine with stim/combat shield push or some type of elevator with BFH and marines with stim.
Late game: Just slow push across the map, zone out the mutalisk with thors and marines and be meticulous with tank positioning.
About the drops. At the start of the game, the earliest drop is somewhere around 7-8 minute mark, which can be fragile in this matchup, if you lose that drop and that medivac that early you are behind. Later on the Zerg HAS to put down spines around his bases or someone like MMA will just task your multitasking until you can't make anymore units and give up. Overlord and creep spread is paramount at that point in the game and if you aren't able to do it well, the Zerg should lose.
EDIT: Also, in your post you are saying it is hard for "YOU" to deal with. Personal experience is always good, but until you are of the highest level the only imbalances a community should focus on are at the top. That is why this topic always devolves into people complaining about other people not being pros so they can't say anything about balance. I disagree with that, but I would suggest that people come to the table with observation of hundreds of games and not just personal experience.
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On August 16 2011 07:30 Xenogears wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 07:23 sleepingdog wrote:
On the EMP-thing: terrans might not realize or like to admit this, but EMP is actually storm and feedback combined vs protoss. It instantly takes away a huge part of "hitpoints" and takes away the ability to cast.
Feedback has never been about "killing" stuff (except maybe medivac drops) but always about preventing the opponent from casting. EMP dominates because, furthermore, ghosts can cloak.
This means, the terran only has to cloak and hit EMP, while the toss has to have perfect observer-control to spot the ghosts, then feedback them, and THEN hopefully have some HTs with energy left for storm. Usually, on the non-pro-level, you see a clumped up terran and a clumped up toss moving against each other......then if the terran hits EMP before toss hits storms it's gg, if the toss hits a storm the terran CAN STILL EMP and it will be even (unless terran takes a shower in storms).
Protoss has to spread templars (which is what terrans always tell protoss), terran doesn't have to spread because a) storm is not "instant", you can move out of it and b) even if you take some damage you still have the medivac-heal, which means the toss better have either multiple storms or colossi to finish the job. So honestly? no, I see much more terran free-wins because toss gets all HTs EMPed than I see toss free-wins because they hit 2-3 good storms.
Overall, I think it is balanced because toss only has to a-move chargelots while terran has to kite them. Also terran has to balance against the colossi/templar composition while toss has the "first mover advantage" there. But the EMP vs storm battle is definitely more challenging/micro-demanding on the toss-part.
Bull***t bro, Feedback KILLS stuff, and Storm > EMP in terms of damages, don't even get me started.... You kill armies with storm (and no you can't dodge...), and you remove shield with EMP which is most of the time less an amount than HP...
That's the exact post the OP was hoping to avoid....
a) Ghosts have a longer range, so with good enough micro, you can negate that. And with Marauders' already incredibly efficient damage vs. every armored unit, storms can punish that effectively.
b) Can you imagine trying to pick out the two or three ghosts in a huge bio mass to feedback?
c) You can either choose to feedback medivacs or storm the army.If you storm and let them retreat, Medivacs can heal up, run out of energy, and be un-feedbackable. If you feedback the medivacs, the now fearlessly stimmed army could roll you over.
d) Terran bio ball is SO much cheaper compared to the Toss ball.
I play Terran, and I have no problem with the balance of HT. Now Infestors.... :p
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On August 16 2011 07:41 Techno wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 07:38 sleepingdog wrote:On August 16 2011 07:35 Techno wrote:
Ultimately this results in me winning 30 minute games with ~5 well executed engagements, and me losing 15 minute games with 1 bad engagement. This is true for late-game yes. But I think this is (even more than ) equalized by the tons of free-wins you can get by doing clever timing pushes (no, not 111). Like early 2 ghost play completely crushes an early archon-tech-player or a slow colossus tech (with "slow" I mean that there are actually no colossi out yet lol). Meaning, yes, in the lategame it's harder for terran to finish off a constantly re-warping toss, but in the midgame if terran gets the upper hand it's lights out. Ok, ok. But is that good game design?
If both sides can make correct decisions based on what they see (and not rely on blind counteres) - then yes.
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On August 16 2011 07:41 Techno wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 07:38 sleepingdog wrote:On August 16 2011 07:35 Techno wrote:
Ultimately this results in me winning 30 minute games with ~5 well executed engagements, and me losing 15 minute games with 1 bad engagement. This is true for late-game yes. But I think this is (even more than ) equalized by the tons of free-wins you can get by doing clever timing pushes (no, not 111). Like early 2 ghost play completely crushes an early archon-tech-player or a slow colossus tech (with "slow" I mean that there are actually no colossi out yet lol). Meaning, yes, in the lategame it's harder for terran to finish off a constantly re-warping toss, but in the midgame if terran gets the upper hand it's lights out. Ok, ok. But is that good game design?
A now start the next discussion:
"Warpgate THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL" :-)
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On August 16 2011 07:41 Techno wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 07:38 sleepingdog wrote:On August 16 2011 07:35 Techno wrote:
Ultimately this results in me winning 30 minute games with ~5 well executed engagements, and me losing 15 minute games with 1 bad engagement. This is true for late-game yes. But I think this is (even more than ) equalized by the tons of free-wins you can get by doing clever timing pushes (no, not 111). Like early 2 ghost play completely crushes an early archon-tech-player or a slow colossus tech (with "slow" I mean that there are actually no colossi out yet lol). Meaning, yes, in the lategame it's harder for terran to finish off a constantly re-warping toss, but in the midgame if terran gets the upper hand it's lights out. Ok, ok. But is that good game design?
Maybe you have to less medivacs / don't babysit them enough.
If you really win an engagement in vaporizing his whole army, you should be able to push on.
But you seriously need your medivacs to do so. If you have 5 marauders and 10 marines, and 5 medivacs on top of them, even if he warps 15 zealots in, you can just stay still and hit stim, and his units die. But you absolutely NEED medivacs. Medivac retention is key in the lategame, otherwise you kill your own army through stimming.
It's the same for protoss, he has to retain his stalkers through the game. He won't be able to build new stalkers in the later game, because they eat to much gas / minerals, while being extremely inefficient.
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I just played a game against my friend in a custom today vs his blue flame hellions.
I put up spine crawlers at my ramp to wall off but as it turns out... hellions can fit through spines.
In my opinion, this is a problem that can be fixed easily by just making spines take up more space. It makes defending mass hellion much easier as right now zerg needs to make spines and evo chambers in front to actually wall off.
Cannons and bunkers are hellion tight... why aren't spines.
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On August 16 2011 07:44 Elefanto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 07:41 Techno wrote:On August 16 2011 07:38 sleepingdog wrote:On August 16 2011 07:35 Techno wrote:
Ultimately this results in me winning 30 minute games with ~5 well executed engagements, and me losing 15 minute games with 1 bad engagement. This is true for late-game yes. But I think this is (even more than ) equalized by the tons of free-wins you can get by doing clever timing pushes (no, not 111). Like early 2 ghost play completely crushes an early archon-tech-player or a slow colossus tech (with "slow" I mean that there are actually no colossi out yet lol). Meaning, yes, in the lategame it's harder for terran to finish off a constantly re-warping toss, but in the midgame if terran gets the upper hand it's lights out. Ok, ok. But is that good game design? Maybe you have to less medivacs / don't babysit them enough. If you really win an engagement in vaporizing his whole army, you should be able to push on. But you seriously need your medivacs to do so. If you have 5 marauders and 10 marines, and 5 medivacs on top of them, even if he warps 15 zealots in, you can just stay still and hit stim, and his units die. But you absolutely NEED medivacs. Medivac retention is key in the lategame, otherwise you kill your own army through stimming. It's the same for protoss, he has to retain his stalkers through the game. He won't be able to build new stalkers in the later game, because they eat to much gas / minerals, while being extremely inefficient.
Yes I agree that the fault of this is the medivacs. I find them dieing an awful lot. It would be extremely taxing for me to add medivac micro onto all the micro/macro I'm already doing in my 250APM TvP battles, but I'll try.
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The problem like people say, really is the warp gate nerf. That, and templars are now completely sh*t.
Yes, you can have 80 damage, but only if your opponent is bad. Now, here's the reason why it used to work, "in Blizzard's logic".
Technically, with Amulet, you could take advantage of the slow, slow, very slow, templar speed. However, now that templars don't have that, AND they are extremely slow, it makes them so much easier targets.
What I really think is that templar speed should drastically go up to match ghosts or infestors at least to make them decent units once more while reducing the risk to actually go templars once more.
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On August 16 2011 07:43 whoopingchow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 07:30 Xenogears wrote:On August 16 2011 07:23 sleepingdog wrote:
On the EMP-thing: terrans might not realize or like to admit this, but EMP is actually storm and feedback combined vs protoss. It instantly takes away a huge part of "hitpoints" and takes away the ability to cast.
Feedback has never been about "killing" stuff (except maybe medivac drops) but always about preventing the opponent from casting. EMP dominates because, furthermore, ghosts can cloak.
This means, the terran only has to cloak and hit EMP, while the toss has to have perfect observer-control to spot the ghosts, then feedback them, and THEN hopefully have some HTs with energy left for storm. Usually, on the non-pro-level, you see a clumped up terran and a clumped up toss moving against each other......then if the terran hits EMP before toss hits storms it's gg, if the toss hits a storm the terran CAN STILL EMP and it will be even (unless terran takes a shower in storms).
Protoss has to spread templars (which is what terrans always tell protoss), terran doesn't have to spread because a) storm is not "instant", you can move out of it and b) even if you take some damage you still have the medivac-heal, which means the toss better have either multiple storms or colossi to finish the job. So honestly? no, I see much more terran free-wins because toss gets all HTs EMPed than I see toss free-wins because they hit 2-3 good storms.
Overall, I think it is balanced because toss only has to a-move chargelots while terran has to kite them. Also terran has to balance against the colossi/templar composition while toss has the "first mover advantage" there. But the EMP vs storm battle is definitely more challenging/micro-demanding on the toss-part.
Bull***t bro, Feedback KILLS stuff, and Storm > EMP in terms of damages, don't even get me started.... You kill armies with storm (and no you can't dodge...), and you remove shield with EMP which is most of the time less an amount than HP... That's the exact post the OP was hoping to avoid.... a) Ghosts have a longer range
This my main problem with PvT, EMP has longer range than feedback (10 vs 9) and is AOE, making emping HT much easier than feed backing Ghosts not to mention cloak. But I have been experimenting with putting HT in warp prism and unloading them before needing storm, but I dont have enough apm for that. Blizz should make range for EMP and FB the same.
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I think at the highest level, especially even higher than korean pros, TvP definitely favors T, simply because the onus is on them to perform well. EMP out ranges feedback/storm. You scan your army/ahead of your army/between the two armies to snipe obs, and scan ahead, cloak and go in for EMPs/snipes. I feel like terran can even the obs game with scan and take the range advantage (especially with the possible 12 range EMP for hitting the single forward HTs). Kiting is difficult, but the protoss has no way to negate it other than to hope the terran is bad at it or bad at kiting + macro. It just seems to me that after you pass the protoss drop defense/macro/FF/GS/feedback/storm skill cap, EVERYTHING past that goes to terran. Protoss needs more mobility/harass/micro options so they can compete at the highest level.
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On August 16 2011 07:45 fighter2_40 wrote:
I just played a game against my friend in a custom today vs his blue flame hellions.
I put up spine crawlers at my ramp to wall off but as it turns out... hellions can fit through spines.
In my opinion, this is a problem that can be fixed easily by just making spines take up more space. It makes defending mass hellion much easier as right now zerg needs to make spines and evo chambers in front to actually wall off.
Cannons and bunkers are hellion tight... why aren't spines.
I think this has to do with zerg not wanting to create chokes for themselves, just think of creating a wall just for it to bite you in the ass later making your lings/blings running through a tight choke into tanks. It wouldn't be pretty.
To state the obvious, if you scout hellions out of a reactor I would suggest either roaches or teching to spire at a decent time. If you don't, I think you pretty much just die to straight up hellions with BF, unless you have some sick ass surround with zerglings or you do sim city well enough to keep them out. (watch out for elevator with medivacs). I don't think this has much balance discussion though.
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On August 16 2011 07:40 Sypher- wrote:
Please please please don't compare storm and emp. Terran unit models are much smaller than their protoss counter parts and have much less HP emp isn't a terran's "storm".
Is a HT smaller than a ghost?
Is a marine smaller than a zealot?
Is a marauder smaller than a stalker?
Also T units may have less hp but dont forget about medivacs
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EPT
