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On March 14 2017 04:55 RaFox17 wrote:
What does TL think about a slight nerf to storm? Zerg is having a really hard time against sky toss especially and storm is an integral part of that strategy. Storm seems to be a counter to everything Z on the ground so a slight nerf would not be crazy. Would this be a problem in PvT?
This is the wrong way to go about it. If the super late game is the problem then don't change the midgame. Carriers are the best unit to change since those will hardly impact any other part of the game.
Also storm is the fun part about skytoss. The deathball a-move is the shitty part. Rather get rid of the shitty unfun part.
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There are some questions I don't understand:
1, Why the cycloon and liberator can product without Tech lab？(I means why they can product with double effective)Because I think 2 cycloons push even can cause more damage than 4 Hellions. And liberator likes a tank in air, but tank can't product without Tech lab.
2,Why Protoss warpgate research cost 140 second. In the VoL, Protoss always use 4BG rush, but now, it can't be used anymore. And the mothership core's field cost 100 Energe, but it only sustain 20s(30s?). I seldom saw it be used in match, even if used, it doesn't work at all. PVT blink stalker isn't valid now.
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No need to nerf storm or BIO play. But there is need to bring 4 larva back. That way Zerg being race with weaker and less cost effective units could get even trades with T or P. Zerg would feel like Swarm again. Could get an edge with economy in early game especially when harras of T and P is so strong nowadays. Now Zerg is outmacroed by Toss and Terran who can get better eco in early and early midgame. Zerg should be the Swarm and instead is castrated from its essence- massive production
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More larva per hatch will bring back the turtle style from Wings. There needs to be some sort of incentive for zerg to take a bunch of hatches and leave them spread around the map with good positions for flanking. They only need a good defensive unit, maybe one that burrows and only attacks while burrowed and does a bunch of damage against anything. And to protect these immobile units you have a spell that reduces range under it, but still have that unit attack count as melee...
oh wait...
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On March 14 2017 23:21 halomonian wrote:
More larva per hatch will bring back the turtle style from Wings. There needs to be some sort of incentive for zerg to take a bunch of hatches and leave them spread around the map with good positions for flanking. They only need a good defensive unit, maybe one that burrows and only attacks while burrowed and does a bunch of damage against anything. And to protect these immobile units you have a spell that reduces range under it, but still have that unit attack count as melee...
oh wait...
Have you seen lurkers against storm/immortals?
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Terran is dead in foreginer scene.
do anyone else manage to win vs zerg n toss now?
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Terran is dead in foreginer scene.
do anyone else manage to win vs zerg n toss now?
Don't think Terran was ever alive at all in the foreign scene. As a whole (meaning Korea+foreign), Terran is by far the least represented in the pro scene. This is arguably counterbalanced by the preeminence of top Korean Terrans.
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On March 15 2017 08:02 MiCroLiFe wrote:
Terran is dead in foreginer scene.
do anyone else manage to win vs zerg n toss now?
Your mispelled "Terran is doing great in the highest level of play, but lots of lower level terrans love complaining about how weak they are"
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Now that the GSL season is over i think there is a great opportunity to do changes in the PvZ matchup. In my opinion there are some design problems and straight up imbalance.
Design problems:
- Adepts have high mobility and incredible DPS against light units. Adept all-ins are terrible to watch and terrible to play against. Adepts + WP are also really strong and both have the problem that zerg does not have enough micro potential to fight them. Against adepts you have to have overwhelming amount of units or a mistake from protoss to counter them.
- Warp prism range is quite absurd and removes lot of the skill required to use it effectively. Lowering the range would differentiate more skilled payers from the rest. WP is also a kinda hero unit when protoss pushes as the fight is often decided not by the standing armies but wether the WP stays alive to reinforce the protoss army.
Imbalance:
- Late game protoss army is too good. Storm, immortals, archons and carriers combined with revelation is OP as BL/infestor.
First thing i would like is to nerf the revelation in duration and increase the cost of energy. I doubt this would be enough but it would be a good start.
If you have any ideas about the PvZ matchup please share them. (And this is not an attempt to diminish Stat´s victory as it was well deserved.)
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I really think Adepts should just be removed and other gateway units boosted or replaced by another unit. Not due to some edginess, but simply they are not fun to watch or play (against), look too much like Zealot and play too much like Stalker. It is unfortunate that the iconic Protoss unit - Zealot - has been almost completely replaced.
I remember when they came out, DK said in an interview that if Adepts will not be fun, they will not hesitate to remove/replace them, and it quite clearly came out this way.
I realized that one of the reasons I was so excited for SC:R is that there were no Adepts.
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Protoss has a superb lategame in general, and always has, but Adepts make it so that their early game is quite strong as well. Strong early + stronger late = imba. Not by much, mind you, but Protoss is slightly favored against both Zerg and Terran right now.
Adepts in particular are slightly too strong, both against Terran and Zerg, but for different reasons.
Against Zerg, being forced to split to deal with the potential shade is a real killer in the early game (Ling/Queen defense), and often makes the difference between easily cleaning up and losing ten drones.
Against Terran, Adept/Phoenix, nuff said.
They could use a small nerf, perhaps like -10 health?
Alternatively, Adepts get a lot of their power from Resonating Glaives, the strongest upgrade in the game. It's needed of course, but for such a powerful and essential upgrade, the research time could perhaps be increased. 121 seconds instead of 100, for instance, would make it the same cost and time as Stim, a similarly vital upgrade.
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I agree that Adepts feel too strong but really only Stats is having success with Protoss right now. I feel like a nerf now would just be punishing Stats for being good.
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On March 27 2017 03:06 jalstar wrote:
I agree that Adepts feel too strong but really only Stats is having success with Protoss right now. I feel like a nerf now would just be punishing Stats for being good.
Nerf in one area could be compensated on other areas. Adepts are terrible design-wise. We should not keep terrible stuff in the game and protoss is doing well Z.
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Yeah design wise it's in a bad spot since it's essentially the protoss version of a reaper while also being tanky enough to be a core gateway unit.
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Shade vision nerf was wrong decision, it was a good early scout tool for protoss. What it should be nerfed was cooldown of the shade as many people suggested.
I still can't believe Warp Prism has that ridiculous range.
Just having a warp prism on the map gives protoss a huge advantage.
Protoss can warp in millions of units in zerg base instantly, so if zerg player wants to move out he has 3 option
1- Leave a bunch of unit at your base
2- Risks it and takes all his army
3- Goes for Spire
It is always a win win situation for protoss to have a warp prism>
1- Don't warp in any units, win the main fight with supply advantage
2- Warp in millions of unit and destroy tech & economy of zerg while you're safe at home because your pylons shoot
3- If you scout the spire just a move with your army.
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P wins GSL = Nerf P + Buff Z. lol...
But Z is underperforming a little...needs buff? Not sure.
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Adept: As a P player i would say, i miss the old adept with good vision. I hate to play mass Adepts with glaives, gives you a overwhelming advantage in scouting, harass and army to easy, nerf its army value. Remove HP from the unit, it should not be able to suicide to always pick off workes like it does atm. Nerf glaives upgrade or remove it. Buff the units vision in shade to make it more viable as a scouting tool. Add small buff to Zealot Charge reasearch time and/or lower research cost to compensate.
Protoss Air: Would start by removing Mothership (not MC) from the game, its to large (hides HTs & Cloaks). This change will nerf the mobility (Recall) and takes away the deathball feel (Cloak) of this comp without nerfing a staple unit as Carriers finally being viable again. If this isn't enough i would buff Infestors Fungal Growth, Increase the duration (not damage) add to the spell so it will interrupt and deny abilities and spells (affects Carriers building Interceptors, Phoenix GB, Void Rays PA, High Templars PS, Sentries FF & GS).
Swarm Hosts: While at it, take a look at Swarm hosts, they been abused on ladder on my level (Plat/Diamond) in some games on certain maps to an extent were it felt completely unbalanced.
Cyclones: Timings involving Reactored Cyclones are truly hard to defend and still be safe vs mines.
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The whole idea of a warp prism sounds cool in theory, but actually ruins the game, because you, as a zerg, can never know how much the protoss is gonna commit with his warp-in. He can just leave it at your base for almost 0 risk, but super high reward, unlike a terran with medivacs who will be weak to counter attacks, if he has a big chunk of his supply in medivacs close to the enemy base.
Unfortunately this is a design flaw that comes with the whole "weak, but mobile (warp in) gateway units" - protoss philosophy in sc2 and will never be changed.
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I think the mine nerf made adept+phoenix too strong against terran. Adepts are too beefy and Terran needs a strong splash to keep them back or to even counter them in a efficient way
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On March 27 2017 04:46 Aegwynn wrote:
Shade vision nerf was wrong decision, it was a good early scout tool for protoss. What it should be nerfed was cooldown of the shade as many people suggested.
I still can't believe Warp Prism has that ridiculous range.
Just having a warp prism on the map gives protoss a huge advantage.
Protoss can warp in millions of units in zerg base instantly, so if zerg player wants to move out he has 3 option
1- Leave a bunch of unit at your base
2- Risks it and takes all his army
3- Goes for Spire
It is always a win win situation for protoss to have a warp prism>
1- Don't warp in any units, win the main fight with supply advantage
2- Warp in millions of unit and destroy tech & economy of zerg while you're safe at home because your pylons shoot
3- If you scout the spire just a move with your army.
I would say the cooldown is really the right point to go. Also maybe making the shade slower could be away. so that units like roaches could follow it up.
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EPT
