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On August 16 2011 07:45 fighter2_40 wrote:
I just played a game against my friend in a custom today vs his blue flame hellions.
I put up spine crawlers at my ramp to wall off but as it turns out... hellions can fit through spines.
In my opinion, this is a problem that can be fixed easily by just making spines take up more space. It makes defending mass hellion much easier as right now zerg needs to make spines and evo chambers in front to actually wall off.
Cannons and bunkers are hellion tight... why aren't spines.
Why wouldn't you just use a queen to prevent hellions from going into the main. Cannons and bunkers are hellion "tight" because they have supply depots, pylons, forges, etc other buildings creating the simcity, why can't you create your own sim city with evos spines a roach warren maybe.
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On August 16 2011 07:47 ScythedBlade wrote:
The problem like people say, really is the warp gate nerf. That, and templars are now completely sh*t.
Yes, you can have 80 damage, but only if your opponent is bad. Now, here's the reason why it used to work, "in Blizzard's logic".
Technically, with Amulet, you could take advantage of the slow, slow, very slow, templar speed. However, now that templars don't have that, AND they are extremely slow, it makes them so much easier targets.
What I really think is that templar speed should drastically go up to match ghosts or infestors at least to make them decent units once more while reducing the risk to actually go templars once more.
Or you can have Templars at each base gathering some energy, I think the problem is that people rather just clump all of them up in their army and then complain when they get EMP'd. Templar could use a tiny bit of a speed buff, but nothing "drastic"...I think that would just take it too far.
Also, WG nerf is nowhere near as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Like I said in a previous post, if you save up enough chrono it is only like 8 seconds slower than the original time. Also earlier on protoss could add on another gateway and put sentries out of 2 gates before WG is done researching to make up in units.
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On August 16 2011 07:44 Buzzo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 07:41 Techno wrote:On August 16 2011 07:38 sleepingdog wrote:On August 16 2011 07:35 Techno wrote:
Ultimately this results in me winning 30 minute games with ~5 well executed engagements, and me losing 15 minute games with 1 bad engagement. This is true for late-game yes. But I think this is (even more than  ) equalized by the tons of free-wins you can get by doing clever timing pushes (no, not 111). Like early 2 ghost play completely crushes an early archon-tech-player or a slow colossus tech (with "slow" I mean that there are actually no colossi out yet lol). Meaning, yes, in the lategame it's harder for terran to finish off a constantly re-warping toss, but in the midgame if terran gets the upper hand it's lights out. Ok, ok. But is that good game design? A now start the next discussion: "Warpgate THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL" :-)
And Spawn Larvae, don't forget about Spawn Larvae.
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Beside 1/1/1 build and a new unit or skill for protoss to harass effectively like Terran or Zerg. I just want to add a few more health to the carrier.
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Well as was stated above, keeping HTs in a warp prism can be helpful, and it's true that I haven't seen almost any tosses at the highest level taking this approach.
I also think warp prisms can be helpful vs kiting as well. Usually you just set your chargelots after the kiting terran army and hope you hit them. What about bringing a warp prism around the back of the terran and warping in your final round of zealots before you hit max BEHIND the mmm ball. Then with charge you get an auto surround and your main army has time to catch up and deal massive damage. This is something I've been trying to incorporate but my micro is not strong enough yet. However I'm sure this form of flanking that is unique to toss has some applications.
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On August 16 2011 07:55 Fig wrote:
Well as was stated above, keeping HTs in a warp prism can be helpful, and it's true that I haven't seen almost any tosses at the highest level taking this approach.
I also think warp prisms can be helpful vs kiting as well. Usually you just set your chargelots after the kiting terran army and hope you hit them. What about bringing a warp prism around the back of the terran and warping in your final round of zealots before you hit max BEHIND the mmm ball. Then with charge you get an auto surround and your main army has time to catch up and deal massive damage. This is something I've been trying to incorporate but my micro is not strong enough yet. However I'm sure this form of flanking that is unique to toss has some applications.
What if you put a warp prism back there (or 2) and warped in zealots behind as they died?
If you exchanged all your excess lategame minerals for instant respawns of zealots, well, that'd be fucking sick.
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On August 16 2011 07:51 Strike_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 07:40 Sypher- wrote:
Please please please don't compare storm and emp. Terran unit models are much smaller than their protoss counter parts and have much less HP emp isn't a terran's "storm". Is a HT smaller than a ghost? Is a marine smaller than a zealot? Is a marauder smaller than a stalker? Also T units may have less hp but dont forget about medivacs
that is why blizz gave EMP a bigger radius...
seriously in TvP nowadays, looks like the storm is damaging more your zealots than the enemy army...
PS: they should give the sensor tower to protoss, terran does not even use that shit, they don't need it
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The thing is though, spending an EMP on HT could mean not EMP-ing the scary deathball, which, if they have Archons, could easily be death for your bio ball. And regarding the Warp prism dropping--couldn't you have HT hotkeyed already, engage with ball, drop, and use hotkey to storm? Doesn't sound too APM intensive unless you're individually blink-micro-ing stalkers too...Sorry if that sounds rude, I absolutely don't mean for it to sound that way.
In tournaments, pros wall off with queens...Idra does this really well...Queens and lings are enough to deny BFH, if they're trapped by the ramp. This relies on you scouting though...
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Ghosts > HT, it even says so it their in-game descriptions. It is about a billion times easier hitting effective emps that it is storm. Any random player will tell you this. You can simply kite a chargelot army and never have to worry about storm because HT move too slowly to catch a kiting bio army. You basically have to stand still or push forward to be vulnerable to storms.
That said you can't really use this as a point of contention about PvT balance as like I said I believe Blizzard intended to ghost/HT interaction to heavily favor ghosts.
The 1/1/1 pushes certainly look ridiculous in recent tourneys though so I'm not sure about that.
The one thing about Terrans though is their insane harassment potential. Protoss can be seen a "defensive race" (though I don't agree with that assessment), but that's just because their aggressive options are so limited. All their units that are effective harassment are all late-tech and expensive. We make deathballs because that is the only thing that works.
On the flip side Terran have huge harassment potential with early or mid-tech units that can simply end the game. BFH, banshees, drops, "clutch" emps can all instantly turn the tide and end the game. Protoss simply doesn't have any mechanic which really lets them effectively come back from the hole. Once Protoss gets behind they just die pretty much.
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On August 16 2011 07:52 Demonace34 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 07:47 ScythedBlade wrote:
The problem like people say, really is the warp gate nerf. That, and templars are now completely sh*t.
Yes, you can have 80 damage, but only if your opponent is bad. Now, here's the reason why it used to work, "in Blizzard's logic".
Technically, with Amulet, you could take advantage of the slow, slow, very slow, templar speed. However, now that templars don't have that, AND they are extremely slow, it makes them so much easier targets.
What I really think is that templar speed should drastically go up to match ghosts or infestors at least to make them decent units once more while reducing the risk to actually go templars once more. Or you can have Templars at each base gathering some energy, I think the problem is that people rather just clump all of them up in their army and then complain when they get EMP'd. Templar could use a tiny bit of a speed buff, but nothing "drastic"...I think that would just take it too far. Also, WG nerf is nowhere near as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Like I said in a previous post, if you save up enough chrono it is only like 8 seconds slower than the original time. Also earlier on protoss could add on another gateway and put sentries out of 2 gates before WG is done researching to make up in units.
I agree with this guy. I play protoss and i don't think WP nerf was that much of a deal. If you still get your timeing right you can still compete with terran army, because as soon as your last round of gateway units pop out you can quickly warp in another round in 10 sec 
HT really got nurfed pretty badly, i think, and yeah a speed buff needed.
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On August 16 2011 07:56 rpgalon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 07:51 Strike_ wrote:On August 16 2011 07:40 Sypher- wrote:
Please please please don't compare storm and emp. Terran unit models are much smaller than their protoss counter parts and have much less HP emp isn't a terran's "storm". Is a HT smaller than a ghost? Is a marine smaller than a zealot? Is a marauder smaller than a stalker? Also T units may have less hp but dont forget about medivacs that is way blizz gave EMP a bigger radius... seriously in TvP nowadays, looks like the storm is damaging more your zealots than the enemy army...
That is more due to people not controlling right and the charge mechanic on zealots. I'd probably say perfect storms would be about 3 inches behind the main army line so they have to either kite into the storm or get ripped up by zealots. (This is in a perfect world though). Honestly what you've said brings not much to discuss about balance with zealots or HT.
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Canada11512 Posts
On August 16 2011 07:54 tuho12345 wrote:
Beside 1/1/1 build and a new unit or skill for protoss to harass effectively like Terran or Zerg. I just want to add a few more health to the carrier.
Health to the carriers or else health to interceptors. For whatever reason, it seems that SC2 wind up with naked Carriers much faster than in BW. The other reason I don't think carriers work as well is Vikings. BW you could abuse cliffs to avoid goliaths and hopefully eventually storm the goliaths. Vikings with their range can snipe Carriers much more easily. I wouldn't call imba on Vikings, but I do think the range is part of the interplay that makes Carriers less effective.
(Theoretically +3 cloaked wraiths could snipe carriers, but they were such paper airplanes, plus their range was negligible.)
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I want to talk about ZvP
I feel that ZvP has shifted to a point where zergs are dominating the protoss.
As a former protoss player I always felt that I was very rigid when I played and that I did not have many ways to pressure zerg and keep them from droning, even with sharkmode, stargate, and even dts. (Naniwa vs Ret EU blizzard - Nani goes for stargate but still Ret drones to 60+ and smashes naniwa with a massive zergling drop and just stretches Naniwa out)
The timing pushes (6gate, 4gate, and other variations of 6~7 gate) all felt very flimsy against spine crawlers and fast infestors (destiny style), and good zergling control. An example game is InControl vs Destiny. Stim Tv showmatch.
Now as a zerg player, I feel that protoss timing pushes are weak and that the old style of reaching the 200/200 deathball has fallen because of the infestor buff and the fact that zerg players are microing better and just attacking more. Drops and things like Destiny's 6 infestor timing are really strong against Protoss.
Personally once I fast expand, barring cannon rush or some weird early thing, I am able to just drone spanishiwa style and then demolish the protoss with mass infestor/ling. I have even held a 4gate in the middle of a droning cycle(miracle transfuses)
I have yet to face much zealot/archon - so my experience with that is limited, the one thing that I have found is pretty effective is mass blink stalker before hive, however if i get off key fungals then things become a lot easier, but I just feel protoss is so rigid vs zerg (1gate FE fake into some 4~5 wg allin might keep zergs honest)
but what are the community´s thoughts?
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On August 16 2011 07:57 Skyro wrote:
Ghosts > HT, it even says so it their in-game descriptions. It is about a billion times easier hitting effective emps that it is storm. Any random player will tell you this. You can simply kite a chargelot army and never have to worry about storm because HT move too slowly to catch a kiting bio army. You basically have to stand still or push forward to be vulnerable to storms.
That said you can't really use this as a point of contention about PvT balance as like I said I believe Blizzard intended to ghost/HT interaction to heavily favor ghosts.
The 1/1/1 pushes certainly look ridiculous in recent tourneys though so I'm not sure about that.
The one thing about Terrans though is their insane harassment potential. Protoss can be seen a "defensive race" (though I don't agree with that assessment), but that's just because their aggressive options are so limited. All their units that are effective harassment are all late-tech and expensive. We make deathballs because that is the only thing that works.
I'd have to disagree and say it is pretty even...(god why do we have to compare storms to EMP). I'd just suggest that observers tilt this "imbalance" back to even ground. If you have sight of his ghosts you should be able to feedback well and use the range of colossus to "zone" out the EMP on your Templar. The harassment problem is being addressed right now, blizzard suggested that Protoss is going to get a better harassment unit eventually.
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On August 16 2011 07:18 Fig wrote:
Yeah I have wondered about this for a long time myself. It seems like all the micro is in the terran's hands during the late game. Which admittedly makes it hard for the terran player, but it is nice to know that they do have the tools to win even engagements if they have strong enough micro. I wish there was more micro potential for toss to even it out.
One big example of this is the ghost design.
EMP = 10 range
Snipe = 10 range
Now we look at the HT
Storm = 9 range
Feedback = 9 range
This shows that if both players have the same skills, the terran player will get off an EMP before a storm can occur. But this puts a lot of pressure on the terran to land them. If instead each spell had 9 range, then the toss would be required to micro just as much, making the engagement much more interesting and fair for all levels.
Great, they have higher range, but this numeric value doesn't instantly mean they are better. Remember its a spell not an attack, which drastically changes the way things work.
Think about Banshee vs Marines. Banshee has 6 Range Marine has 5. Alternating between move and A move allows you to Scoot and shoot. This abuses the banshees extra range. To attack a marine at range 6 you just a-move up to it or right click it. Now a marine is stimmed and moving, you right click on it or A-move for the same max range attack.
Compare this to EMP or Fungal and you see my point. EMP doesnt have the ablility to right click on a HT or Infestor to cast at max range. You have to click slightly ahead of max range, to allow the AI to move close enough to cast at max range. If the unit is moving, it becomes even more difficult to cast at max range.
Compared to Feedback, which can be cast on a single specific unit and let the AI cast at max range. Paired with Shift que-ue can Feedback multiple units quickly.
What I'm trying to illustrate with this comparison, is EMP/Fungal's AOE also comes with a draw back. You can't ALWAYS cast at max range every time, even if you know the max range yourself, you will never have the same precision as the AI itself.
If Feedback and EMP had the same range EMP would LOSE a MAJORITY of the time in the hands of equivalently microing players just due to the mechanics of an AOE vs Single target ability.
TL;DR
There is a reason EMP has longer range, it would outright lose to Feedback due to the AOE vs Single Target nature.
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On August 16 2011 07:59 Demonace34 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 07:56 rpgalon wrote:On August 16 2011 07:51 Strike_ wrote:On August 16 2011 07:40 Sypher- wrote:
Please please please don't compare storm and emp. Terran unit models are much smaller than their protoss counter parts and have much less HP emp isn't a terran's "storm". Is a HT smaller than a ghost? Is a marine smaller than a zealot? Is a marauder smaller than a stalker? Also T units may have less hp but dont forget about medivacs that is way blizz gave EMP a bigger radius... seriously in TvP nowadays, looks like the storm is damaging more your zealots than the enemy army... That is more due to people not controlling right and the charge mechanic on zealots. I'd probably say perfect storms would be about 3 inches behind the main army line so they have to either kite into the storm or get ripped up by zealots. (This is in a perfect world though). Honestly what you've said brings not much to discuss about balance with zealots or HT.
the templars can't even storm the bio after they start kiting cuz of their battlecruise speed, I don't know how you can storm 3 inches behind a good terran...
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I think the current balance is great, my only real problem is with Zerg. They just don't feel Zerg-y. The spit larvae mechanic, while cool and powerful, makes them play passive and sneaky. I guess I think they should be more agressive and in-yo-face.
I don't know what a fix would be. Maybe keep inject in the game, but make drones only producable out of the hatcheries like Queens, and give drones a speed bonus on creep to compensate. Or fix Hydra speed and replace the Roach with something faster but with less HP
The only other holes I see missing are:
-Terran needs a Factory unit with decent antiair (thors dont count)
-Protoss needs a way to get mobile detection (without going robo)
-Zerg needs a antiair unit in Lair that is usable off creep (without going spire, and hydras+infestors dont count)
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I would love to see more FF + storm combo from top tier players proving to us that is works.
I would love to see a 1-1-1 build from protoss.
I would love to see FF + strom by drops
I would love to see blink stalker harrass (get like 10 ish and blink out when army comes)
I would love to see more OBSERVERS been produceded
I would love to see your constructive argument :D
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To me, I think sc2 is horribly difficult to balance just due to the new macro mechanics.
- Zerg: inject is really hard to manage especially mid-late game when u need to defend several bases against drops/warp ins while managing ur army and spreading creep. but with high apm i supposed anything is possible. it's a possible overpowered mechanic if used correctly but if neglected, zerg becomes a really weak race. this is prolly why we see certain zergs DOMINATE when they are playing well but other times they just completely crumble. i think the addition of a defensive siege unit may aid zerg macro as it allows u to focus more apm into injects. in the future, inject may need a nerf of some sort. also, i feel like queen speed needs to be buffed to somewhere between the speed now and speed before. and the spine rooting needs to be buffed to somewhere btw the speed now and the speed before
- Terran: mules are really good and work great especially with terran since it gives tons of minerals to make marines which versatile and cost effective. i think on larger maps, mules may be imbalanced once multiple orbitals are made, especially if there is a gold base. whut does every1 think about making mules not be able to mine the same patch as scvs as a slight nerf?
- Protoss: seems to be a weak race as their macro mechanic doesnt seem all that powerful. their strength seems to lie in being able to get a nice base economy fast and getting fast upgrades so their smaller army becomes more effective. as ppl get more effective in using inject and more abusive with multiple orbitals, i see toss becoming really weak. maybe they can buff chronoboost and have it give a slow boost to buildings that are warping in. this could add in some cool dynamics such as fast warping in cannons offensively. maybe shield batteries can be added in again in future expansions. warping in shield batteries during battle would be so OP but interesting
does anyone know if u can warp in cannons/buildings via the warprism?
in closing, i feel like larger maps could help with balancing the macro mechanics as it gives players more time to reactive to the large upswings that the mechanics offer.
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On August 16 2011 08:02 cpomz wrote:
I want to talk about ZvP
I feel that ZvP has shifted to a point where zergs are dominating the protoss.
As a former protoss player I always felt that I was very rigid when I played and that I did not have many ways to pressure zerg and keep them from droning, even with sharkmode, stargate, and even dts. (Naniwa vs Ret EU blizzard - Nani goes for stargate but still Ret drones to 60+ and smashes naniwa with a massive zergling drop and just stretches Naniwa out)
The timing pushes (6gate, 4gate, and other variations of 6~7 gate) all felt very flimsy against spine crawlers and fast infestors (destiny style), and good zergling control. An example game is InControl vs Destiny. Stim Tv showmatch.
Now as a zerg player, I feel that protoss timing pushes are weak and that the old style of reaching the 200/200 deathball has fallen because of the infestor buff and the fact that zerg players are microing better and just attacking more. Drops and things like Destiny's 6 infestor timing are really strong against Protoss.
Personally once I fast expand, barring cannon rush or some weird early thing, I am able to just drone spanishiwa style and then demolish the protoss with mass infestor/ling. I have even held a 4gate in the middle of a droning cycle(miracle transfuses)
I have yet to face much zealot/archon - so my experience with that is limited, the one thing that I have found is pretty effective is mass blink stalker before hive, however if i get off key fungals then things become a lot easier, but I just feel protoss is so rigid vs zerg (1gate FE fake into some 4~5 wg allin might keep zergs honest)
but what are the community´s thoughts?
Agreed, currently ZvP, Zerg are ahead. Why?
Zerg were previously behind, and experimented with underused units such as Infestors, Drops, Nydus, and Zerglings.
So its now Protoss's turn to experiment. I still think Colossus are the answer to Ling suppported by Infestors. But once Zerg has 12+ Infestors, which gives Zerg the energy to both Chain-Fungal and Cast multiple Neural Parasites, Protoss needs High Templar.
Note: Immortals suck against Roach/Infestor because their 5 range gaurentees they will be Neural-ed or Killed. Use them before enough Infestors for Neural or not at all.
To be frank, the 200/200 Protoss Deathball still exists.
It must be adapted to fight the Zerg, 12 Broodlord 14+ Infestestor + Ground support army.
Instead of being worried that your Colossus or Archons or Immortals all got Neural Parasited. Give the Zerg so many target to Neural Parasite he can't Neural them all.
Make an army of Archon, Colossus, High Templar, Void Ray and Stalkers as supply permits.
If it is a true Death-Ball the Cost of Tech and Units should not be an issue. The goal is an unstoppable army.
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