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On July 31 2012 17:19 convention wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 16:56 Cutlery wrote:
I was thinking this to myself a few weeks back. Now that phoenix got the range upgrade, the change which let them attack while moving no longer follows logic reasoing? I don't remember the comment for that change, but do you really need range 6 AND firing while moving? I'm pretty sure this was mainly to deal with mutas -- now done by the range upgrade instead.
Would make sense.. But might be a bug.
With micro you can still get them to fire while moving, can you not? Not necessarily a bad change, to demand micro, for a game like starcraft Without move and shoot on phoenix, mutas hard counter phoenix. With move and shoot but small range, unless a top pro player is controlling the phoenix: mutas hard counter phoenix. Only non-pros get the range upgrade, which allows lower level players to actually counter mutas with phoenix. And are you really demanding micro for a fast moving, low HP glass-cannon that has to use an ability on each ground unit it attacks? Phoenix are one of the most, if not the most, micro intensive units in the game.
Not sure your first paragraph isn't contradicting itself. And yes, hitting S every second for some micro wouldn't be bad considering that it's starcraft. They won't deccelerate enough to be caught by the mutas. I can understand that their speed make them a difficult tool, but it also gives them their great potential.
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1.5 Beta uses an old build that probably has a couple of bugs like this.
If this happened in the 1.5 live build it will probably get hotfixed asap in case it can be reproduced.
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On July 31 2012 17:28 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 17:24 Cutlery wrote:On July 31 2012 17:15 Demizzle wrote:On July 31 2012 16:56 Cutlery wrote:
I was thinking this to myself a few weeks back. Now that phoenix got the range upgrade, the change which let them attack while moving no longer follows logic reasoing? I don't remember the comment for that change, but do you really need range 6 AND firing while moving? I'm pretty sure this was mainly to deal with mutas -- now done by the range upgrade instead.
You know Mutas shit all over Phoenixes once the numbers get big enough, right? With or without the upgrade. So to take out moving shot would make them even more useless than before. Blink stalkers and storm are still the preferred method for dealing with mutas for a reason. Phoenixes just aren't good. This is a huge change that allows a Phoenix to dance around Mutalisks and other air units and attack them while moving. Phoenix always did hard-counter Mutalisks, but now even a very small number of Phoenix can challenge a very large number of Mutalisks so long as they are willing to attack and move away. Use your Phoenix to keep out of the Mutalisk attack range while firing yourself and you can do a lot of damage to a pack of Mutalisks. ..It's a numbers and micro thing. phoenixes should be able to shit all over mutas. But if you are very outnumbered and don't control them properly, the phoenixes are a complete waste. I still think range 6 and fire while moving is now a very strange combination, that I'm not surprised if blizzard is questioning. I can see where you're coming from, range 6 with moving shot seems indeed a bit redundant. But problem is, they don't have the fleet beacon (!) upgrade by default. Range 4 phoenix without moving shot is pitifully bad.
If someone wants to mass mutas they can still get a few corruptors to complement their air army.
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Phoenix are fine as they are. I am pretty sure this is a bug that it will be fixed asap.
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On July 31 2012 17:37 etherealfall wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 17:28 ZenithM wrote:On July 31 2012 17:24 Cutlery wrote:On July 31 2012 17:15 Demizzle wrote:On July 31 2012 16:56 Cutlery wrote:
I was thinking this to myself a few weeks back. Now that phoenix got the range upgrade, the change which let them attack while moving no longer follows logic reasoing? I don't remember the comment for that change, but do you really need range 6 AND firing while moving? I'm pretty sure this was mainly to deal with mutas -- now done by the range upgrade instead.
You know Mutas shit all over Phoenixes once the numbers get big enough, right? With or without the upgrade. So to take out moving shot would make them even more useless than before. Blink stalkers and storm are still the preferred method for dealing with mutas for a reason. Phoenixes just aren't good. This is a huge change that allows a Phoenix to dance around Mutalisks and other air units and attack them while moving. Phoenix always did hard-counter Mutalisks, but now even a very small number of Phoenix can challenge a very large number of Mutalisks so long as they are willing to attack and move away. Use your Phoenix to keep out of the Mutalisk attack range while firing yourself and you can do a lot of damage to a pack of Mutalisks. ..It's a numbers and micro thing. phoenixes should be able to shit all over mutas. But if you are very outnumbered and don't control them properly, the phoenixes are a complete waste. I still think range 6 and fire while moving is now a very strange combination, that I'm not surprised if blizzard is questioning. I can see where you're coming from, range 6 with moving shot seems indeed a bit redundant. But problem is, they don't have the fleet beacon (!) upgrade by default. Range 4 phoenix without moving shot is pitifully bad. If someone wants to mass mutas they can still get a few corruptors to complement their air army.
Hmm, yeah I agree, phoenixes are perfectly fine as they are. I just wanted to say that even if you assumed that moving shot with range 6 is too much, range 4 without it certainly makes for one of the worst units in the game (worse than the hydra actually :D).
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I hope it's just what was already theorized in this thread: namely, that it's an issue with patch streaming. I wouldn't be surprised, the patch streaming seems like a highly complicated bit of coding and some bugs with it should be expected.
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On July 31 2012 17:19 convention wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 16:56 Cutlery wrote:
I was thinking this to myself a few weeks back. Now that phoenix got the range upgrade, the change which let them attack while moving no longer follows logic reasoing? I don't remember the comment for that change, but do you really need range 6 AND firing while moving? I'm pretty sure this was mainly to deal with mutas -- now done by the range upgrade instead.
Would make sense.. But might be a bug.
With micro you can still get them to fire while moving, can you not? Not necessarily a bad change, to demand micro, for a game like starcraft Without move and shoot on phoenix, mutas hard counter phoenix. With move and shoot but small range, unless a top pro player is controlling the phoenix: mutas hard counter phoenix. Only non-pros get the range upgrade, which allows lower level players to actually counter mutas with phoenix. And are you really demanding micro for a fast moving, low HP glass-cannon that has to use an ability on each ground unit it attacks? Phoenix are one of the most, if not the most, micro intensive units in the game.
Try play Marine & Marauder against Baneling & Infestor if you really want to know what does 'micro intensive' means
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Tell them to "fix" carrier 
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this patch is infested with bugs... T_T
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Did you really just call the phoenix the most micro intensive unit th
Imma go now.
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On July 31 2012 17:19 convention wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 16:56 Cutlery wrote:
I was thinking this to myself a few weeks back. Now that phoenix got the range upgrade, the change which let them attack while moving no longer follows logic reasoing? I don't remember the comment for that change, but do you really need range 6 AND firing while moving? I'm pretty sure this was mainly to deal with mutas -- now done by the range upgrade instead.
Would make sense.. But might be a bug.
With micro you can still get them to fire while moving, can you not? Not necessarily a bad change, to demand micro, for a game like starcraft Without move and shoot on phoenix, mutas hard counter phoenix. With move and shoot but small range, unless a top pro player is controlling the phoenix: mutas hard counter phoenix. Only non-pros get the range upgrade, which allows lower level players to actually counter mutas with phoenix. And are you really demanding micro for a fast moving, low HP glass-cannon that has to use an ability on each ground unit it attacks? Phoenix are one of the most, if not the most, micro intensive units in the game.
Im pretty sure right clicking while the phoenixes shoot by themselves is very hard =)
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WTF, i like the Phoenix attack move! Looks very artistic.
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Units that attack while moving = micro intensive.
What world is that?
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On July 31 2012 17:49 Nekovivie wrote:
Units that attack while moving = micro intensive.
What world is that?
lmao. In all seriousness, the phoenix should probably stay like it is with the 1.5 patch.
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On July 31 2012 17:49 phodacbiet wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 17:19 convention wrote:On July 31 2012 16:56 Cutlery wrote:
I was thinking this to myself a few weeks back. Now that phoenix got the range upgrade, the change which let them attack while moving no longer follows logic reasoing? I don't remember the comment for that change, but do you really need range 6 AND firing while moving? I'm pretty sure this was mainly to deal with mutas -- now done by the range upgrade instead.
Would make sense.. But might be a bug.
With micro you can still get them to fire while moving, can you not? Not necessarily a bad change, to demand micro, for a game like starcraft Without move and shoot on phoenix, mutas hard counter phoenix. With move and shoot but small range, unless a top pro player is controlling the phoenix: mutas hard counter phoenix. Only non-pros get the range upgrade, which allows lower level players to actually counter mutas with phoenix. And are you really demanding micro for a fast moving, low HP glass-cannon that has to use an ability on each ground unit it attacks? Phoenix are one of the most, if not the most, micro intensive units in the game. Im pretty sure right clicking while the phoenixes shoot by themselves is very hard =)
I'm sure he meant that it's the unit that requires the most attention in the game.
Basically, if you want phoenixes to do anything, from harassing to defending against mutas, you have to look at them and control them.
Even mutas, you park them on a mineral line and let them do their job, with a bio drop you stim one time, A-move and do something else,or with DTs you queue a bunch of workers or just a-move the mineral line or a building, you look at the minimap to see when you have to retreat and that's about it. If you're not a top class player this is probably enough and will get some sort of damage done even if it's not optimal (no target fire yadayada).
With phoenixes, you have to pick up a unit with graviton beam each time you want to get a kill, you have to not pick up too many of them or else you take too much time killing shit, and they don't attack ground so can't even defend themselves.
Against mutas, you just have to right click like a madman without doing anything else, or else you lose everything.
So sure, their micro is not hard, in a micro tournament context, but we're looking at a real game, where you have to do like 3 things per second...
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A world in which you only have a half range more and are faster with no ability to stack. Its so hard that you cant really kite more than 10 muta and have it not be futile. Ofc with range 6 its easy. Until they make corruptors.
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Well when the beta for 1.5 first came out it also had similiar issues which they patched quiet quickly. I guess when you change the entire interface shit can go wrong, I wouldn't be too worried.
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On July 31 2012 16:56 Cutlery wrote:
I was thinking this to myself a few weeks back. Now that phoenix got the range upgrade, the change which let them attack while moving no longer follows logic reasoing? I don't remember the comment for that change, but do you really need range 6 AND firing while moving? I'm pretty sure this was mainly to deal with mutas -- now done by the range upgrade instead.
Would make sense.. But might be a bug.
With micro you can still get them to fire while moving, can you not? Not necessarily a bad change, to demand micro, for a game like starcraft
I think I have seen that upgrade like 3 times out of hundreds of PvZs I've seen
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It can't stay the way it is because even with micro it will do about half the damage by not being able to attack while chasing, but instead having to stop each time it attacks. So I am sure it's a bug that will be fixed.
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It's ok. Now protoss needs more micro.
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EPT
