EPTHow to present females in the SCII-community? - Page 5
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United States6531 Posts
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thurst0n
United States611 Posts
On July 18 2012 09:19 Vildhjerta wrote: I think that gender might be a big disadvantage.Maybe not in marketing, but during the entire gamer-career. Before this girl wanted to "succeed as a player", as you put it, she has probably been with the community for a while. Some people's attitude might have gotten her to change her mind; can't you imagine any girl feeling that she is being worked against by the general view of women in the community? I think what you're taking up is a big issue as well, but I can't write about all issues, can I? There's too much to say about it. You, on the other hand, who seem to be more interested in just this specific thing than in what I wrote about, should start a thread on that! I would read it Wow, please stop. You don't know what these girls are thinking, stop pretending like you do. Here's an anecdote: I used to be good friends with a girl gamer. From the first moment I learned she was a gamer, all I could do was swoon over her. She got nothing but my attention and encouragement. There was never a moment when I got a sense from her that she was discouraged in anyway by anyone. Again this is just an anecdote. Maybe your community and culture is one that tries to knock down women constantly, and there are certainly people who would wish to do that in the U.S. But you make it seem like all of e-sports is against the idea of women, and i think that just about everyone is WIDE OPEN to the idea as long as the women has merits for why they are there. Scarletts merits are self aparrent, for Ms. Elise our friend killerdog explains her merits of being a host below... Please refresh my memory, what is the general view of women in the community. You're basically making it here by making this thread. My view of women in the community: there aren't enough. That's all, nothing more nothing less. Like I said, this guy totally ripped your points apart in his first paragraph. On July 18 2012 09:06 killerdog wrote: A Hosts job is to keep the crowds attention during breaks, and introduce things in a not totally awkward fashion, mlg accomplishes this by having clutch, who iirc is trained in acting or broadcasting or something, and other tournaments accomplish this by having humorous hosts, (incontrol, 2gd) or physically attractive hosts or anything else that keeps people at their monitors during those moments where nothing is going on. You clearly don't understand the purpose of a host. | ||
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BuddhaMonk
781 Posts
Take news anchors for example, you often see male anchors of various types of sizes, including older and overweight men. It's very rare to see anything other than a young attractive female anchor. Then there's the related issue of sexualization of mostly women (but men to a lesser extent as well) in the media. Within the sub-category of sports, women are generally portrayed as what some here term "eye candy" in the form of cheerleaders, ringside girls, dancers, hostesses etc. Some people here are pointing to the larger media industry and saying "look other sports do it too" so there's nothing wrong with it. The question people should be asking themselves is that if there are two equally qualified women vying for a hosting job and the woman who is generally considered more attractive gets the job 100% of the time, is there anything wrong with that? The unattractive woman may feel unfairly passed over while attractive woman who gets the job may feel like she only got the job because of her looks. I'm not qualified to judge what the role of women in media means and whether the stereotyping and sexualization of women and men is truly good or bad. We are human after all and we cannot pretend to ignore that some people are more attractive than others. There's lots of research out there for those who care to uncover it. My only real point here is that this is a much larger issue than women in esports and people who simply say "this is the norm therefore it's OK" should take a look at the big picture. | ||
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Mauldo
United States750 Posts
I understand why. Everyone wants to break into the scene and get paid, so someone on camera that doesn't necessarily know anything about SC2 might rub you the wrong way. Alright. The problem though lies in the fact that you, and everyone who posts a thread like this once a month or so, seems to think that everyone on stream in fact has to know jackshit about the game. If that's the barometer for who gets to do anything ESPORTS related, then sorry, even most managers are fired. EG better find a COO, because Sir Scoots just got fired. And since when is it bad to have a bit of eye candy every once in a while. If you want this to be a legit sport, you have to accept it. How many female sports interviewers actually know more than cursory knowledge about the sport they're reporting on? Hell, to expand, how many hot female anchors on TV are actually good journalists? The best part is, if they hired a hot guy to host no one would say a word. They'd say "Who's this jackass," sure, but they wouldn't post a thread about how unfair it is that Joe A was hired just because he's hot. Especially considering this woman knew why she was being hired, (PROTIP: She's attractive), and you really don't have a point for some kind of malicious exploitation, though you're really trying for it. In fact, I'd ask you to take a step back and think about if your sudden crusade to halt this seemingly widespread sexist injustice is actually coming from your own sexist attitudes. You know, the "she's being treated in a way I dislike, she must need my saving." She's hot, she got paid to host. That's basically how 95% of hosting jobs have ever been filled, and it's not going to change. Ever. She obviously has no problem cashing the check, so why do you? | ||
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
On July 18 2012 09:19 Vildhjerta wrote: I think that gender might be a big disadvantage.Maybe not in marketing, but during the entire gamer-career. Before this girl wanted to "succeed as a player", as you put it, she has probably been with the community for a while. Some people's attitude might have gotten her to change her mind; can't you imagine any girl feeling that she is being worked against by the general view of women in the community? I think what you're taking up is a big issue as well, but I can't write about all issues, can I? There's too much to say about it. You, on the other hand, who seem to be more interested in just this specific thing than in what I wrote about, should start a thread on that! I would read it Sorry if i came across as if i don't think the issue you raised is important at all, that was not my intention (almost 2 am so i'm a bit sleepy >.<) I just feel that on the surface the gender inequality can seem a lot more prominent then it really is, because the things people see and read about are generally when a girl tries to get attention for being a girl, rather then for skill, and this can sour the image of the community when you have those 5% of girls who try and abuse the fact they are female being trolled/harrassed by the 5% of the males in the community who are douches. It's just that there is no real visible way to measure the "good" examples of male-female relations on the forum, as the good form of it is the silence because noone cares if you are a girl or not. Because the "good" is silence and the "bad" is a thread in which a bunch of people say spiteful things and get banned for it, then it can seem like the bad is overwhelming compared to the good. Personally i feel that people recieving negative feedback from the community when they try and make a name for themselves before they are actually good at the game, both guys and girls get a lot of hate when the community thinks they are trying to just garner fame rather then actually trying to improve at the game. a few examples would be the entire bigT debacle, or people like combatex. From my observations as a long time lurker/member on teamliquid, the only time girls get any kind of prejudice against them is when they start flaunting that title around or mentioning the fact they are a girl constantly, there are many long time members of the community who are girls, and most people know they are girls and it's just accepted. It's a sensitive issue, but i feel the way it's being handled right now, where females who want to legitimately become casters or players can become that if they just put in the work and become as objectively good as the males, then i don't feel they are actually treated any worse. Sure Soe (or whatever her name was, didn't watch much of nasl) recieved a bit of flaming on the forums for whatever reasons, but generally other casters recieve just as much flaming, and often way more (such as hd at ipl, for example.) And While i recognise that sometimes the criticisms thrown at soe may have referred to her gender, the people throwing that kind of abuse around are people who just want to complain about something, and had it been a male caster then they would have just figured out a different insult to hurl. | ||
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
I use quotes too much. (also parentheses/slashes) | ||
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CapnAmerica
United States508 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/YT7Tk.jpg) I think this is more or less what most people want. | ||
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Capulet
Canada686 Posts
On July 18 2012 09:50 BuddhaMonk wrote: There is a real gender double standard in media. This is not unique to e-sports. Take news anchors for example, you often see male anchors of various types of sizes, including older and overweight men. It's very rare to see anything other than a young attractive female anchor. Then there's the related issue of sexualization of mostly women (but men to a lesser extent as well) in the media. Within the sub-category of sports, women are generally portrayed as what some here term "eye candy" in the form of cheerleaders, ringside girls, dancers, hostesses etc. Some people here are pointing to the larger media industry and saying "look other sports do it too" so there's nothing wrong with it. The question people should be asking themselves is that if there are two equally qualified women vying for a hosting job and the woman who is generally considered more attractive gets the job 100% of the time, is there anything wrong with that? The unattractive woman may feel unfairly passed over while attractive woman who gets the job may feel like she only got the job because of her looks. I'm not qualified to judge what the role of women in media means and whether the stereotyping and sexualization of women and men is truly good or bad. We are human after all and we cannot pretend to ignore that some people are more attractive than others. There's lots of research out there for those who care to uncover it. My only real point here is that this is a much larger issue than women in esports and people who simply say "this is the norm therefore it's OK" should take a look at the big picture. This post pretty much covers all the grounds of this thread. Very well written. I would just like to re-emphasize the point that this phenomenon extends beyond Starcraft and eSports. To correct this double standard means addressing the sexualization of women in all the above mentioned examples of media. | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
For everything else, just refer to Kennigit's recent blog on the subject that actually provided some interesting facts and detailed analysis instead of starting up a fairly bland campaign thread and rehashing the same discussion at least once every lunar cycle. | ||
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Kerotan
England2111 Posts
On July 18 2012 09:53 jalstar wrote: By saying "girls", "women", or even "ladies". "Males" and "females" are too nerdy/scientific terms to use if you're trying to be the "cool" ESPORT. I use quotes too much. (also parentheses/slashes) Well also Male and Female are sexes, women, men, ladies, girls are gender terms, and more inclusive too. | ||
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MichaelDonovan
United States1453 Posts
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
On July 18 2012 10:02 Kerotan wrote: Well also Male and Female are sexes, women, men, ladies, girls are gender terms, and more inclusive too. It's not really incorrect or anything, and I don't mind it, but it's something I've seen mostly on internet forums and scientific papers. And it's using the words as nouns, not adjectives. There's a subtle difference in meaning that I can't really explain well via text. | ||
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Euronyme
Sweden3804 Posts
On July 18 2012 10:02 MichaelDonovan wrote: Welcome to sports. Cheerleaders, flag wavers, starter pistol firers etc. If this kind of thing is going to change, it's not going to start with Starcraft. It's going to start by getting rid of cheerleaders or something in a more mainstream sport. Those 'mainstream' sports are not mainstream anywhere in Europe though afaik. | ||
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nkr
Sweden5451 Posts
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DjDickGrayson
United States81 Posts
On July 18 2012 08:03 mrtomjones wrote: The day a really good looking female achieves something in SC based on her play is the day she will have a bright future as a part of the commentating/host side of the events. Every sport in the world has people involved who never achieved anything. Deal with it. Not every aspect of hosting requires SC knowledge really either. Pretty much what I was going to post. She is adding to the production value, and sometimes instead of judging we should sit back and enjoy the show. Bless that girl's heart for turning down parts in commercials and being part of the gaming community. | ||
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thurst0n
United States611 Posts
On July 18 2012 10:07 nkr wrote: Is clutch with mlg and nasl for his good looks? Yes, I believe so. He has other qualities. But if he looked like Steve Buscemi, he might not have the same job. | ||
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
On July 18 2012 10:05 Euronyme wrote: Those 'mainstream' sports are not mainstream anywhere in Europe though afaik. Yeah :s... I don't know when i last saw cheerleaders at an event, but it was a while ago, starting pistol firers are almost always old slightly chubby men and i'm not sure what flags you are referring to? o.0 Either way, Electronic sports are in a sense a new frontier, one of the most attractive things about E-Sports is that everyone is equal behind a keyboard and monitor, whether they are a skinny white teenager or a 35 year old black single mother. While i agree that for roles where physical appearance helps them fulfill the role they are hired for, it's common sense to hire the most attractive host, there is no reason E-Sports should repeat the failings of other, older sports. | ||
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Heavenlee
United States966 Posts
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AKomrade
United States582 Posts
On July 18 2012 10:04 jalstar wrote: It's not really incorrect or anything, and I don't mind it, but it's something I've seen mostly on internet forums and scientific papers. And it's using the words as nouns, not adjectives. There's a subtle difference in meaning that I can't really explain well via text. I was going to post the same thing. And agree. Its just a feeling the word conveys rather than the word itself. Can't think of the right adjectives, but they're long the lines of awkward and sterile. Also makes me think of a fashion show combined with an auction. That being said, girls in games are over thought things to begin with and the specific topic of female hosts is fairly unimportant. A couple of people said above me that a host's job is to hold the viewer's attention and not be awkward on stage, which can be accomplished by anyone capable of it. How it is presented is more up to individual or perceived taste, not a person's gender. And if you don't like it, you can always stop watching when X is on screen. | ||
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BuddhaMonk
781 Posts
On July 18 2012 10:11 Heavenlee wrote: ....The majority of the sc2 community are young males...young males like looking at hot women...why are you making this into some sort of feminist manifesto? There is no "media" sexualization of females, males view females as sexual creatures regardless of media---it's our biological and evolutionary imperative. If some female comes that provides something besides being eye candy, then that's good, but eye candy like Lauren is eye candy. You may as well ask "why do models have to be good looking?" Unless you are sexually oppressed there is absolutely nothing wrong with the presence of attractive women for the sake of attractive women, barring you end up stalking her. I'm not sure how you can say there's no sexualization of females and be taken seriously. One need only look at the media in, say the 1950's and 60's and compare it to today to notice the extremely stark difference. Now, the sexualization also extends to men as well so this street does go both ways. There's plenty of research that proves this to be the case, and it's not just a case of feminism. In fact you can argue that the sexualization of women has been largely perpetuated because of feminism and the sexual revolution. You can argue that it's not necessarily a bad thing but to argue that it has always been this way in media is just flat out wrong. | ||
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