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The women that do put thier dues into the scene should be highlighted more for the SC contributions rather then their femininity. Its kind of objectifying to already single one member out based on gender as a special case. This goes both ways though. Women in eSports are often either embraced in one extreme or the other. Teams and organizations will single out and shine a spotlight on their female members to show diversity, inclusiveness and to just overall be different then the next group.
The general community at large often spotlights them in the other direction by inundating them with sexual harassment type jokes while at the same time belittling any progress or achievements they individually made by comparing them to usually more experienced and upper tier players.
Its a very volatile climate for women operate in, and often (at least from my perspective) they tend to deal with it by sort of sliding into the background and avoid most attention.
If a girl gamer doesn't show up as the next bonjwa (exaggeration, but you get it) she has a hell of a road ahead of her and props to those who can keep it up.
I think the solution is to stop treating them like women and treat them like players. Give them an honest and fair shake. I think if at least a small alcove can be carved out in the scene where female competitors can get this sort of treatment and escape all the social stigmas with being not just a gamer, but a female gamer, we could get some seriously talented people who could establish females at legitmate competitors. Validating a lot of girl gamers who may otherwise thing female pros are just going to be treated like gimmicks unless they face-stomp the world ten times over.
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If esports was governed by the Swedish state, it would be mandatory for 50% of players in GSL to be female
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On July 18 2012 08:36 CounterOrder wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 08:32 Vildhjerta wrote:On July 18 2012 08:22 CounterOrder wrote:On July 18 2012 08:14 Vildhjerta wrote:On July 18 2012 08:11 MetalPanda wrote:
I honestly see nothing wrong with eye candy for a job as minimal as she had to do. They think they help their product by hiring her, and maybe they're right, maybe they're wrong, but in the end no one is hurt and there's no reason to complain about it. The way I see it, and also the perspective I wrote from, is that everyone actually is hurt by this. So I feel like there IS reasons to complain. What I mentioned was among other things that it makes it more difficult to take other women seriously. Having a hot host makes it harder to take women seriously? I dont get it, i dont think this community considers women a joke. You cant seriously make the argument that that chick caused any harm at all, or that anyone else would in her position. Its silly. Faculty: The problem is that those are posts posted by 13-15 year olds. They really shouldnt be given any weight and those people should honestly have gotten temp banned. Having a hot host makes it harder to take women seriously? My answer: No, but the host is in this case not related to SCII at all. Lets say there was a guy host that knew nothing about esports, do you think he would be appreciated? I would at least be thinking "what the hell is that guy doing here? why dont we get someone who knows what he's talking about?". The answer would in the case I wrote about ofc be "because she's good looking". Isn't it harmful that a woman with a non-existing relation to the community has been hired instead of a well-informed one, for an example? I stand by what I previously wrote, and agree to disagree on your claim of silliness :p It was never her job to know or talk about anything. If it was then you would have a point.
Would you not agree that there are women who are already in the scene who are just as good to look at, would probably appreciate the paycheck (and cost less to boot) and be able to bring their knowledge to the role, which would ultimately make them more qualified. Just like any other job, if you have two candiates who are equally qualified for the job (in this case being good looking) then you look at other qualities to make the decision. If I were an event organiser, I am sure I could find someone who is both great to look at and doesn't sound like an idiot while doing it.
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I think the point of selecting eye candy is made clear by this thread - it's to get attention for the event.
If it were someone as part of the community, it would be hardly worth a mention, except maybe in their fanclub thread. But instead, here we are, making threads about people that we barely know. I'd say the mission is accomplished. People talk more, good or bad, about attractive people. There will be more threads about it. People tuning in, both new and fans, will talk about "who that person is".
So in a very cynical way, it's always better to use an attractive person as the figurehead.
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If a girl gamer doesn't show up as the next bonjwa (exaggeration, but you get it) she has a hell of a road ahead of her and props to those who can keep it up.
if you said this before Scarlett youd have a point, but despite not getting amazingly far in IPL and building an evo instead of a pool VS demuslim she still had an insanely huge fan following even despite doing literally nothing between IPL and WCS canada (well not literally i suppose)
if she plays well, shell get fans, the SC2 fans are not actually biased most of us look at the skill most of the time you dont even see the palyers face until he gets like Ro8 in a tournament and sometimes not even then
Would you not agree that there are women who are already in the scene who are just as good to look at, would probably appreciate the paycheck (and cost less to boot) and be able to bring their knowledge to the role, which would ultimately make them more qualified. Just like any other job, if you have two candiates who are equally qualified for the job (in this case being good looking) then you look at other qualities to make the decision. If I were an event organiser, I am sure I could find someone who is both great to look at and doesn't sound like an idiot while doing it.
except her job wasnt to look good, she did alot aside from looking good
and no, even if she had Day[9] level knowledge of the game and knew absolutely everything about every player, race, map and match up, guess what? it wouldnt effect her ability to do the job she was hired to do one tiny bit
she didnt sound like an idiot at all, except for all the extreme lore nerds who were pissed off from the lore question about the zerg homeworld (oh ya didnt she know Jims middle name unlike that Nerd she questioned?) she did her job amazingly well noone could ahve done it better
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If we're going to debate the fact of whether or not Lauren was qualified, I'd like to offer this point: What's Clutch's credibility for hosting? I'm not saying he's bad, but to me, it seems like he's the same way. He just appeared one day at MLG and has been around ever since. I know he's got his own show but other than that, he's got little background in the community. As it was mentioned before people like Day9, Mr Bitter, and Rotterdam have had lots of involvement with the community.
But back on point, I don't see why it matters so much having Lauren host. Other sports offer a nice sideshow of women (i.e. cheerleaders). But when the games get cranking, do you really remember who was dancing on the sideline or announcing the names? Or do you remember the games? I remember Stephano stomping Alicia way more than I remember Lauren.
And I do think hosts should be a little outside of the typical community figures. Can you imagine a Naniwa or Thorzain trying to hype a crowd? I'd fall asleep. People like Clutch and Lauren might not be the ideal SC2 representatives but they know how to work an audience. Remember the Dreamhacks with 2GD and Semmler the Riot? I'm pretty sure those were my favorite hosts out of sheer amusement.
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On July 18 2012 08:26 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 08:22 CounterOrder wrote:On July 18 2012 08:14 Vildhjerta wrote:On July 18 2012 08:11 MetalPanda wrote:
I honestly see nothing wrong with eye candy for a job as minimal as she had to do. They think they help their product by hiring her, and maybe they're right, maybe they're wrong, but in the end no one is hurt and there's no reason to complain about it. The way I see it, and also the perspective I wrote from, is that everyone actually is hurt by this. So I feel like there IS reasons to complain. What I mentioned was among other things that it makes it more difficult to take other women seriously. Having a hot host makes it harder to take women seriously? I dont get it, i dont think this community considers women a joke. You cant seriously make the argument that that chick caused any harm at all, or that anyone else would in her position. Its silly. You can make the argument that it did cause immeasurable harm, especially from wary first time viewers who saw the production and quickly came to an incorrect conclusion about the scene combining what they saw with the stereotype of fat, horny nerds.
I don't get it. Any big sports event in America has a legion of scantily-dressed cheerleaders, that's way worse than anything esports does. Are physical sports for fat, horny nerds then?
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I know how to do for Brood War.
Okay so basically it is like chess
But unlike chess, your pieces can be brought back by reproduction
To product a unit, you need a factory
To build one, you need resources.
Oh did I forget to mention that resources is also vital for the respawn of the unit?
The gatherers collect them and return them to a bank in which it can be used as your currency.
So it is pretty much like economics in a way that you want to make the opponent spent as much money as possible while you'll attempt to spend the least to be optimal.
(^the above is the macro aspect of the game because you absolutely do not want to be like "Oh yeah I just kill other shit with my own shit and hope that my shit comes on top!")
She'll most likely respond with "Ooooh, so how are you going to do that?"
Then proceed on with:
Well as I have mentioned before that your units are exactly like chess piece in ways that you may use it to eliminate another one.
But at the same time, the other one can also reciprocate the action back to you.
In these case, the player that can control the 'pieces' the best gets to be on top.
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On July 18 2012 08:42 emythrel wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 08:36 CounterOrder wrote:On July 18 2012 08:32 Vildhjerta wrote:On July 18 2012 08:22 CounterOrder wrote:On July 18 2012 08:14 Vildhjerta wrote:On July 18 2012 08:11 MetalPanda wrote:
I honestly see nothing wrong with eye candy for a job as minimal as she had to do. They think they help their product by hiring her, and maybe they're right, maybe they're wrong, but in the end no one is hurt and there's no reason to complain about it. The way I see it, and also the perspective I wrote from, is that everyone actually is hurt by this. So I feel like there IS reasons to complain. What I mentioned was among other things that it makes it more difficult to take other women seriously. Having a hot host makes it harder to take women seriously? I dont get it, i dont think this community considers women a joke. You cant seriously make the argument that that chick caused any harm at all, or that anyone else would in her position. Its silly. Faculty: The problem is that those are posts posted by 13-15 year olds. They really shouldnt be given any weight and those people should honestly have gotten temp banned. Having a hot host makes it harder to take women seriously? My answer: No, but the host is in this case not related to SCII at all. Lets say there was a guy host that knew nothing about esports, do you think he would be appreciated? I would at least be thinking "what the hell is that guy doing here? why dont we get someone who knows what he's talking about?". The answer would in the case I wrote about ofc be "because she's good looking". Isn't it harmful that a woman with a non-existing relation to the community has been hired instead of a well-informed one, for an example? I stand by what I previously wrote, and agree to disagree on your claim of silliness :p It was never her job to know or talk about anything. If it was then you would have a point. Would you not agree that there are women who are already in the scene who are just as good to look at, would probably appreciate the paycheck (and cost less to boot) and be able to bring their knowledge to the role, which would ultimately make them more qualified. Just like any other job, if you have two candiates who are equally qualified for the job (in this case being good looking) then you look at other qualities to make the decision. If I were an event organiser, I am sure I could find someone who is both great to look at and doesn't sound like an idiot while doing it.
I agree with you, but she was a host, and not even an important one,being after day 9 soe and clutch... She wasnt there to talk about the game and any other person in her spot wouldnt be there to talk about the game either even if they were GM. Thats not what that position is. In her case being from the scene or not means nothing.
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On July 18 2012 08:41 Catch]22 wrote:
If esports was governed by the Swedish state, it would be mandatory for 50% of players in GSL to be female
Yeah just like our football team.... Oh wait.
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On July 18 2012 08:34 Forikorder wrote:NASL hired a beautiful woman like every other show/tournament/event ever in the history of the universe ever its not a big deal at all she probably knows as much about SC2 as clutch does (or at least dispalyed as much information) hosts are not hired to be commentators, they dont need to hire someone who knows how to hold a 4 gate or can take a safe fast 3rd on cloud kingdom, when they have an interview they dont ahve a laptop and ask them to ladder a couple games they hire a host to get people exited and do stuff hosts generally do and she did a great job at that ill never understand why people constantly try to treat females differently in such a vocal way and then say its for gender equality, if you wanted gender equality this thread wouldnt exist because there would be no reason for it too, its like wining that they didnt hire a stereotypical nerd to be there host This argument is barely worth answering too, but I'll give it a shot anyway; do you think the same way of, for an example the fight for equal rights when it comes to ethnicity? That "if they (ppl fighting for black ppl rights for an example) wanted equality they wouldnt talk about it, because there would be no reason". How does that work out for you? :p Its ridicoulus to say that Im CREATING a problem by writing about it. To say that you need to deny the existance of the problem, right? saying Lauren shouldnt have been hired because shes hot and doesnt know starcraft makes no sense Show nested quote +Having a hot host makes it harder to take women seriously? My answer: No, but the host is in this case not related to SCII at all. Lets say there was a guy host that knew nothing about esports, do you think he would be appreciated? I would at least be thinking "what the hell is that guy doing here? why dont we get someone who knows what he's talking about?". The answer would in the case I wrote about ofc be "because she's good looking". Isn't it harmful that a woman with a non-existing relation to the community has been hired instead of a well-informed one, for an example?
I stand by what I previously wrote, and agree to disagree on your claim of silliness i was at the event, and i dont remember Clutch ever having to at any point in time (aside from casting a match i think...? memories of the event fuzzy to much awesome) demonstrating SC2 knowledge all the host needs to know is the name of the game, the casters and the palyers thats all they need to know
User was warned for this post
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On July 18 2012 08:46 Xiphos wrote:
I know how to do for Brood War.
Okay so basically it is like chess
But unlike chess, your pieces can be brought back by reproduction
To product a unit, you need a factory
To build one, you need resources.
Oh did I forget to mention that resources is also vital for the respawn of the unit?
The gatherers collect them and return them to a bank in which it can be used as your currency.
So it is pretty much like economics in a way that you want to make the opponent spent as much money as possible while you'll attempt to spend the least to be optimal.
(^the above is the macro aspect of the game because you absolutely do not want to be like "Oh yeah I just kill other shit with my own shit and hope that my shit comes on top!")
She'll most likely respond with "Ooooh, so how are you going to do that?"
Then proceed on with:
Well as I have mentioned before that your units are exactly like chess piece in ways that you may use it to eliminate another one.
But at the same time, the other one can also reciprocate the action back to you.
In these case, the player that can control the 'pieces' the best gets to be on top.
are you trying to say you dont even think she understands the game at all?
she knew Jims middle names, shes probably played campaign
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If Lauren doesn't know much about SC2, then that's fine with me so long as we don't get any more HasuOrbs.
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
On July 18 2012 08:46 Xiphos wrote:
I know how to do for Brood War.
Okay so basically it is like chess
But unlike chess, your pieces can be brought back by reproduction
To product a unit, you need a factory
To build one, you need resources.
Oh did I forget to mention that resources is also vital for the respawn of the unit?
The gatherers collect them and return them to a bank in which it can be used as your currency.
So it is pretty much like economics in a way that you want to make the opponent spent as much money as possible while you'll attempt to spend the least to be optimal.
(^the above is the macro aspect of the game because you absolutely do not want to be like "Oh yeah I just kill other shit with my own shit and hope that my shit comes on top!")
She'll most likely respond with "Ooooh, so how are you going to do that?"
Then proceed on with:
Well as I have mentioned before that your units are exactly like chess piece in ways that you may use it to eliminate another one.
But at the same time, the other one can also reciprocate the action back to you.
In these case, the player that can control the 'pieces' the best gets to be on top.
This is a good point. Even someone who isn't super familiar with Sc2 can be taught the basics well enough to be a good host.
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On July 18 2012 08:32 Vildhjerta wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 08:22 CounterOrder wrote:On July 18 2012 08:14 Vildhjerta wrote:On July 18 2012 08:11 MetalPanda wrote:
I honestly see nothing wrong with eye candy for a job as minimal as she had to do. They think they help their product by hiring her, and maybe they're right, maybe they're wrong, but in the end no one is hurt and there's no reason to complain about it. The way I see it, and also the perspective I wrote from, is that everyone actually is hurt by this. So I feel like there IS reasons to complain. What I mentioned was among other things that it makes it more difficult to take other women seriously. Having a hot host makes it harder to take women seriously? I dont get it, i dont think this community considers women a joke. You cant seriously make the argument that that chick caused any harm at all, or that anyone else would in her position. Its silly. Faculty: The problem is that those are posts posted by 13-15 year olds. They really shouldnt be given any weight and those people should honestly have gotten temp banned. Having a hot host makes it harder to take women seriously? My answer: No, but the host is in this case not related to SCII at all. Lets say there was a guy host that knew nothing about esports, do you think he would be appreciated? I would at least be thinking "what the hell is that guy doing here? why dont we get someone who knows what he's talking about?". The answer would in the case I wrote about ofc be "because she's good looking". Isn't it harmful that a woman with a non-existing relation to the community has been hired instead of a well-informed one, for an example? I stand by what I previously wrote, and agree to disagree on your claim of silliness :p
She was asking trivia questions and showing the players to their booth. How is that harmful in any way? I guess booth girls are now harmful because they don't read the comics or play the games of the booths they represent? Erin Andrews doesn't play football or any other sport, she doesn't deserve to report on those sports. In fact, she is hurting ESPN because she's pretty!
So, who would be qualified to ask trivia questions? I'm curious.
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On July 18 2012 08:49 spbelky wrote:
If Lauren doesn't know much about SC2, then that's fine with me so long as we don't get any more HasuOrbs.
If your job is to talk to/about the players, you better damn well get their names right.
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As a man I can say that a majority of the females online dont like telling people that they're females simply because (insert random percentage here) of men online dont know how to fucking act and tend to drive off most of the females. It was like that on Xbox Live. I used to play Gears of War alot (and if you know the gears community, they're pretty fucking hardcore nerds) and everytime a female spoke a word, all hell broke loose. Most of you are grown men with wives of your own, don't act like kids.
Females are humans just like males. If you ask me, most of the males need to fix their behavior around females rather than vice-versa.
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On July 18 2012 08:24 Kreb wrote:
How to present females? Like any other normal human being. Its when you make their sex a huge deal things start to get weird.
This is correct. Don't get me wrong I like a pretty girl who plays games and will drool over them such as ailuj for example. But at the end of the day we should all respect each other. Every player should be respected. Now leagues like IPL do spice up there lan events with lovely ladies in lovely dresses, I feel like that is ok because it goes with the theme IPL is trying to portray. Which to me is IPL is trying to make esports sexy. Kind of like NBA/NFL have dancers/cheerleaders. At end of the day, these girls just love esports like the guys do. And frankly I don't want to just play with a bunch of dudes, girls can bring new ideas and have just as much fun as the guys.
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On July 18 2012 08:41 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
The women that do put thier dues into the scene should be highlighted more for the SC contributions rather then their femininity. Its kind of objectifying to already single one member out based on gender as a special case. This goes both ways though. Women in eSports are often either embraced in one extreme or the other. Teams and organizations will single out and shine a spotlight on their female members to show diversity, inclusiveness and to just overall be different then the next group.
The general community at large often spotlights them in the other direction by inundating them with sexual harassment type jokes while at the same time belittling any progress or achievements they individually made by comparing them to usually more experienced and upper tier players.
Its a very volatile climate for women operate in, and often (at least from my perspective) they tend to deal with it by sort of sliding into the background and avoid most attention.
If a girl gamer doesn't show up as the next bonjwa (exaggeration, but you get it) she has a hell of a road ahead of her and props to those who can keep it up.
I think the solution is to stop treating them like women and treat them like players. Give them an honest and fair shake. I think if at least a small alcove can be carved out in the scene where female competitors can get this sort of treatment and escape all the social stigmas with being not just a gamer, but a female gamer, we could get some seriously talented people who could establish females at legitmate competitors. Validating a lot of girl gamers who may otherwise thing female pros are just going to be treated like gimmicks unless they face-stomp the world ten times over.
You have a lot of good points, thank you for sharing them with me (and everybody else ofc, but Im extra-happy since I wrote the post). This whole thing with highlighting women is ofc a part of the problem as well, neither men nor women should be premiered, even though one might think it would be for the specific guy's/girl's advantage, it might as well just mess things up, since people will not think it was well-deserved..
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On July 18 2012 08:54 LgNKami wrote:
As a man I can say that a majority of the females online dont like telling people that they're females simply because (insert random percentage here) of men online dont know how to fucking act and tend to drive off most of the females. It was like that on Xbox Live. I used to play Gears of War alot (and if you know the gears community, they're pretty fucking hardcore nerds) and everytime a female spoke a word, all hell broke loose. Most of you are grown men with wives of your own, don't act like kids.
Females are humans just like males. If you ask me, most of the males need to fix their behavior around females rather than vice-versa.
you could replace female with any sort of minority or anything that makes someone different and it would still be accurate
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EPT
