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Dear people of TeamLiquid. What I am writing is about how women are represented in the SCII community. I got to thinking of it because of the NASLs recent choice of hosts, in this case Lauren Elise. This is not criticism of her in any way, but only my own reflections on how much of an issue gender is. I hope I put this in the right forum. If not so, please redirect me..
I have been playing Starcraft for quite some time now and as every other player have I gotten to know the scene. I have seen a positive, supporting community, that is very male-dominated. It is natural that the community is dominated by the target audience of the game companies. From this you could come to the conclusion that hiring a good looking woman to be a host at an event is not a bad idea, since the majority of the audience might appreciate it.
I am not going to go on about why objectifying people is bad etc, even though there is a lot to say about that. Instead I am going to talk about the Starcraft II scene and how it is affected by this, seemingly harmless, choice of an attractive hostess.
First of all, what you look for in any kind of host is of course things like showmanship and charisma, but since this is a specific event, also the knowledge and love of Starcraft II is essential for a host not to make a fool out of oneself. There are several female profiles in the StarCraft community who possess the acquired knowledge and are passionate about the game, but Lauren Elise is, according to me, not one of them.
Second of all you have to consider what message the choice of host sends. Does it say “we value people the same, regardless of what gender he/she is “? In a thread on TeamLiquid, the “NASL 3 Feedback thread”, Lauren is mentioned as “eye candy” by several different people. This attitude towards women is world-spread and nothing significant for e-sports, but unfortunate nonetheless. Having a playboy model as hostess gives the image that a woman in e-sports is a decoration for the male-dominated audience to enjoy. She is not a part of the event, even less so because of the fact that she was (probably) headhunted and has nothing to do with the community whatsoever.
Lastly, Lauren Elise should not be blamed for this, even though she probably will be by some people. Comments on TL and other places sometimes express how “unfair” it is that girls get more attention than guys in the community. In Lauren’s case I agree; the attention is not well-deserved because she did not accomplish anything. Employing women this way will make it a lot harder for other people, who happen to be of the same gender as Lauren, to be taken for something serious. A girl like Lauren is not a good representative for the female gaming community, especially since she’s barely part of it. Hiring her gives the impression that women are qualified hostesses as long as they’re good looking. It is needless to say that the same does not go for the male hosts. The NASL should understand that, and the people working with big events should take the responsibility that comes with popularity. It is only until the majority of the people in e-sports want equality as we can have it that way. Competent hosts of big events, the male ones as well as the female ones, is just a start, but something that I think is important to build an equal community. What do you people think?
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The day a really good looking female achieves something in SC based on her play is the day she will have a bright future as a part of the commentating/host side of the events.
Every sport in the world has people involved who never achieved anything. Deal with it. Not every aspect of hosting requires SC knowledge really either.
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While i agree with what youre saying in theory, the problem is that there are very few women with comparable knowledge/passion/enthusiasm for starcraft with say, Day9, Bitterdam, Gretorp, Frodan and all the other male casters. its not a matter of inequality, whether on purpose or not, its just that currently there are more qualified male casters/hosts etc.
As shown in professional athletics, having attractive women is an effective advertising method, and while it would be a step forward in the diversity of the community to have a woman caster/host etc, i think people would rather have only male casters if it would mean a higher level of competency/analysis/energy. As a whole i think the community would welcome a woman caster or host with open arms as long as they are also competent, which is the core issue here.
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It's a good question your post raises though I expected it to be about MMA demotion jessica/eve sex jokes..
There is no good answer. Ideally every girl would be knowledgable on sc2 and pretty. But pretty attracts people, and knowledge of sc2 people appreciate. How do you get people in the first place? Pretty.
Yeah, don't hire eye-candy is what i would like to impart to sc2 tourneys. Atleast not for anrole besides handing out trophies
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naked
User was banned for this post.
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On July 18 2012 08:04 Pazuzu wrote:
While i agree with what youre saying in theory, the problem is that there are very few women with comparable knowledge/passion/enthusiasm for starcraft with say, Day9, Bitterdam, Gretorp, Frodan and all the other male casters. its not a matter of inequality, whether on purpose or not, its just that currently there are more qualified male casters/hosts etc.
As shown in professional athletics, having attractive women is an effective advertising method, and while it would be a step forward in the diversity of the community to have a woman caster/host etc, i think people would rather have only male casters if it would mean a higher level of competency/analysis/energy. As a whole i think the community would welcome a woman caster or host with open arms as long as they are also competent, which is the core issue here.
I personally feel like I'd rather have only competent casters etc if there were no good female ones. But I know there are, and that's why I'm disturbed by the fact that the girls asked to do these jobs are not the ones who should be asked, but they are models chosen for their looks.
Do you not think that attitude might work against women trying to get into the scene as well? If the general opinion is "there are no good female casters etc", it might be dificult for a female to step forward and get accepted, even if she IS as good as any other caster. Does she get the same chances?
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On July 18 2012 08:03 mrtomjones wrote:
The day a really good looking female achieves something in SC based on her play is the day she will have a bright future as a part of the commentating/host side of the events.
Every sport in the world has people involved who never achieved anything. Deal with it. Not every aspect of hosting requires SC knowledge really either.
Do you mean that if a not-so-good-looking female achieves something, she will not have a bright future as a part of the commentating/host side of the events?
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I honestly see nothing wrong with eye candy for a job as minimal as she had to do. They think they help their product by hiring her, and maybe they're right, maybe they're wrong, but in the end no one is hurt and there's no reason to complain about it.
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On July 18 2012 08:07 Bippzy wrote:
It's a good question your post raises though I expected it to be about MMA demotion jessica/eve sex jokes..
There is no good answer. Ideally every girl would be knowledgable on sc2 and pretty. But pretty attracts people, and knowledge of sc2 people appreciate. How do you get people in the first place? Pretty.
Yeah, don't hire eye-candy is what i would like to impart to sc2 tourneys. Atleast not for anrole besides handing out trophies
There's a lot to write about on the subject, but I chose this since it was what caught my attention most recently... And yeah, ofc there is no simple answer at least. But I live by the philosophy to air my thoughts and hear others, and hope to come to something at least close to an answer  )
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On July 18 2012 08:11 MetalPanda wrote:
I honestly see nothing wrong with eye candy for a job as minimal as she had to do. They think they help their product by hiring her, and maybe they're right, maybe they're wrong, but in the end no one is hurt and there's no reason to complain about it.
The way I see it, and also the perspective I wrote from, is that everyone actually is hurt by this. So I feel like there IS reasons to complain. What I mentioned was among other things that it makes it more difficult to take other women seriously.
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I really don't like the practice of hiring models for the sole reason that they are models. I'm okay with hiring people like Seltzer and Prosser, because they're actually really involved in the eSports community (on top of being really good at what they do). Lauren was just...I dunno. She was better than Lindsey Sporrer, for sure, but she was there exclusively as eye-candy and obviously had no real presence in the Sc2 community beforehand or after. I don't fault her personally, and I think she did a good job as it is, but I don't really like the practice of hiring random women with the only qualifications seeming to be "is pretty and likes video games."
Meh.
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Women should at least have knowledge of the game to be a successful host. She doesn't have to have the same amount of analytical knowledge as the casters, but she should know what to say, when to say it and be able to report the facts. Just like the women who are in an equivalent role on other sports broadcasting networks.
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On July 18 2012 08:09 Vildhjerta wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 08:04 Pazuzu wrote:
While i agree with what youre saying in theory, the problem is that there are very few women with comparable knowledge/passion/enthusiasm for starcraft with say, Day9, Bitterdam, Gretorp, Frodan and all the other male casters. its not a matter of inequality, whether on purpose or not, its just that currently there are more qualified male casters/hosts etc.
As shown in professional athletics, having attractive women is an effective advertising method, and while it would be a step forward in the diversity of the community to have a woman caster/host etc, i think people would rather have only male casters if it would mean a higher level of competency/analysis/energy. As a whole i think the community would welcome a woman caster or host with open arms as long as they are also competent, which is the core issue here. I personally feel like I'd rather have only competent casters etc if there were no good female ones. But I know there are, and that's why I'm disturbed by the fact that the girls asked to do these jobs are not the ones who should be asked, but they are models chosen for their looks. Do you not think that attitude might work against women trying to get into the scene as well? If the general opinion is "there are no good female casters etc", it might be dificult for a female to step forward and get accepted, even if she IS as good as any other caster. Does she get the same chances?
They would have to go through the same path that every up and coming caster goes through; companies have smaller satalite tournaments to help a caster build reputation and they work their way up. The goal in my opinion should be for selecting the best casters; the gender of the caster should not be an issue. Neither preventing the caster from gaining experience because she is a woman, nor denying them an edge over others because she is a woman is the ultimate goal, we just want the best casters
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On July 18 2012 08:16 Pazuzu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 08:09 Vildhjerta wrote:On July 18 2012 08:04 Pazuzu wrote:
While i agree with what youre saying in theory, the problem is that there are very few women with comparable knowledge/passion/enthusiasm for starcraft with say, Day9, Bitterdam, Gretorp, Frodan and all the other male casters. its not a matter of inequality, whether on purpose or not, its just that currently there are more qualified male casters/hosts etc.
As shown in professional athletics, having attractive women is an effective advertising method, and while it would be a step forward in the diversity of the community to have a woman caster/host etc, i think people would rather have only male casters if it would mean a higher level of competency/analysis/energy. As a whole i think the community would welcome a woman caster or host with open arms as long as they are also competent, which is the core issue here. I personally feel like I'd rather have only competent casters etc if there were no good female ones. But I know there are, and that's why I'm disturbed by the fact that the girls asked to do these jobs are not the ones who should be asked, but they are models chosen for their looks. Do you not think that attitude might work against women trying to get into the scene as well? If the general opinion is "there are no good female casters etc", it might be dificult for a female to step forward and get accepted, even if she IS as good as any other caster. Does she get the same chances? They would have to go through the same path that every up and coming caster goes through; companies have smaller satalite tournaments to help a caster build reputation and they work their way up. The goal in my opinion should be for selecting the best casters; the gender of the caster should not be an issue. Neither preventing the caster from gaining experience because she is a woman, nor denying them an edge over others because she is a woman is the ultimate goal, we just want the best casters
That would be the optimal situation, yes. How to get there is where it gets tricky...
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I share same viewpoint, but I think for eSports to get any traction in a common market (which benefits progamers, the people we really care about to do well) the natural starting point is to find people like Lauren (maybe she wants to continue and learn more/get better too, who knows?). Given time, more women with more than a cursory knowledge of the game will come forward, knowing they can do better than the last one, and that will only happen if the tourneys struggle in the beginning to find that fit for a host. Literally it only takes one to get a little bit of fame and then they will be everywhere; just look at some casters that are out there. They are there not based on game knowledge or anything, it's just that they've become familiar and familiar attracts repeat viewers/attendees.
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Allmost every sport got host/interviewer etc as hot women becuase most sport viewers are males. Why in gods name do you think it should be different in sc2?. Personally I like it it tells the world we just a normal sport like everything els.
I simply cant understand why everytime there is a women in the sc2 community we get post like these. We sound like sexist, unsecure nerds. Just enjoy the show and watch Esport grow and dont be affraid of a pair of tits plz
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On July 18 2012 08:08 baby elephant wrote:
naked
Basically here is the problem.
There isn´t really any misogyny and sexism out there that is genuine.
But it is riddled with this jokish culture, look at the mma thread; about half of it is jokes about how mma banged eve or jessica.
The problem is just that everyone is trying to be an (awful) comedian, and joking on a woman´s expense (No knowledge, no skill, looks etc.) is something people can easily take a jab at.
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On July 18 2012 08:14 Vildhjerta wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 08:11 MetalPanda wrote:
I honestly see nothing wrong with eye candy for a job as minimal as she had to do. They think they help their product by hiring her, and maybe they're right, maybe they're wrong, but in the end no one is hurt and there's no reason to complain about it. The way I see it, and also the perspective I wrote from, is that everyone actually is hurt by this. So I feel like there IS reasons to complain. What I mentioned was among other things that it makes it more difficult to take other women seriously.
Having a hot host makes it harder to take women seriously? I dont get it, i dont think this community considers women a joke.
You cant seriously make the argument that that chick caused any harm at all, or that anyone else would in her position. Its silly.
Faculty: The problem is that those are posts posted by 13-15 year olds. They really shouldnt be given any weight and those people should honestly have gotten temp banned.
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On July 18 2012 08:22 Facultyadjutant wrote:Basically here is the problem. There isn´t really any misogyny and sexism out there that is genuine. But it is riddled with this jokish culture, look at the mma thread; about half of it is jokes about how mma banged eve or jessica. The problem is just that everyone is trying to be a comedian, and joking on a woman´s expense (No knowledge, no skill, looks etc.) is something people can easily take a jab at.
It's the internets, I told Al Gore it was a bad idea; like giving a monkey a rifle.
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How to present females? Like any other normal human being. Its when you make their sex a huge deal things start to get weird.
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EPT
