EPTOn July 18 2012 08:47 Euronyme wrote:
Yeah just like our football team.... Oh wait.
Yeah just like our football team.... Oh wait.
They would if they could
How to present females in the SCII-community? - Page 4
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Catch]22
Sweden2683 Posts
They would if they could | ||
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Steelo_Rivers
United States1968 Posts
On July 18 2012 08:57 Forikorder wrote: you could replace female with any sort of minority or anything that makes someone different and it would still be accurate ^^ exactly. I went to a barcraft one day and everybody was surprised because i'm a black dude. shit was crazy. | ||
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Staboteur
Canada1873 Posts
On July 18 2012 08:24 Kreb wrote: How to present females? Like any other normal human being. Its when you make their sex a huge deal things start to get weird. I can't do much but agree with this. If she was hired and asked to put on a persona that she found unbecoming of herself and was putting on reluctantly in order to get paid, I'd have a problem with the situation as it would feel wrong on several levels to participate in the event. HOWEVER because as far as anyone can tell she was hired to be herself and be entertaining, why is there debate over whether or not this is "right"? Sure, it has the potential to reinforce certain negative stereotypes and help people less willing to actually think about the subject believe that these stereotypes are far more prevalent than they actually are, but I'm not one to advocate protecting people from their own mistakes and if someone is determined to be wrong, I'm completely fine letting them eventually suffer for it. Yeah. My personal opinion is that she was nice to look at, was seemingly being herself and no-one else, and made the event more "fun" than certain other choices may have. Though NASL could have made different choices of host for any number of different reasons, I don't think it's legitimate to claim sexism or a negative portrayal of women in this regard. | ||
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Vildhjerta
Sweden20 Posts
On July 18 2012 08:45 CPTBadAss wrote: If we're going to debate the fact of whether or not Lauren was qualified, I'd like to offer this point: What's Clutch's credibility for hosting? I'm not saying he's bad, but to me, it seems like he's the same way. He just appeared one day at MLG and has been around ever since. I know he's got his own show but other than that, he's got little background in the community. As it was mentioned before people like Day9, Mr Bitter, and Rotterdam have had lots of involvement with the community. But back on point, I don't see why it matters so much having Lauren host. Other sports offer a nice sideshow of women (i.e. cheerleaders). But when the games get cranking, do you really remember who was dancing on the sideline or announcing the names? Or do you remember the games? I remember Stephano stomping Alicia way more than I remember Lauren. Actually you make my point a little by saying "do you really remember those girls? no"... because what I want it for us to have girls present... that actually are rememberable  Otherwise it seems kind of pointless to me that they are even there, right? If everyone's going to forget them anywayAnd I do think hosts should be a little outside of the typical community figures. Can you imagine a Naniwa or Thorzain trying to hype a crowd? I'd fall asleep. People like Clutch and Lauren might not be the ideal SC2 representatives but they know how to work an audience. Remember the Dreamhacks with 2GD and Semmler the Riot? I'm pretty sure those were my favorite hosts out of sheer amusement. That's a good point though. Lol @ 2GD <3 | ||
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
I fail to see the link between having physically attractive hosts and making it harder for females in E-Sports. If a girl wants to succeed as a player, then gender is definitely not a disadvantage, in fact i would say it is a huge advantage to be female because you will get a lot more attention, and attention attracts sponsors which attracts opportunities to improve which otherwise might not be there. If a female player feels hard done by then they should just buckle down and practice because i can't think of a single case in which a female player has been passed over for sponsorship/attention in favour of a male player of equal skill. As casters, the skills required to be a caster are the ability to be well spoken, that is have a suitably large active vocabulary and know how to use it, as well as having an accent which isn't totally out there, and also knowing enough about the game to talk about it on a decent level. There is always going to be a certain amount of "prejudice" people have when listening to female vs male commentators just because it's a female, and the majority of the sc2 audience (i believe) are male, and that isn't going to change for the forseeable future. I'm just surprised you choose to discuss the fact that hosts sometimes are females who don't understand the game. Because there are just as many male hosts who don't understand the game as well. Actually in my opinion, if you want to complain about something damaging the reputation of females who game seriously i would talk about all the girls who use the fact they are a girl as their main selling point, rather then their playing skill. A few examples (nothing against these people personally or anything like that, they are just examples of a trend i've seen recently) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=346852 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=339222 Are two examples, both are girls trying to sell themselves as girls. Surely this is much more damaging to the professionalism, you seem to want, where there are no differences between how males and females are perceived. There is a certain double standard to saying "guys treat girl gamers differently" when the vocal 5% of female gamers, (who are the ones people hear, and therefore believe make up the majority of the female gaming scene) are advertising their stream as "starcraft with boobs" or something like that. This kind of advertising is just putting more focus on dividing male and female gamers rather then bringing them together. I believe that the best way for female gamers to be treated equally is just to not put any focus on the fact that they are girls, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342346 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=290288 These two streamers just acknowledge that they are girls and then move on, because IT ISN'T IMPORTANT. If girls want attention they should just get better, such as scarlett has done, and get noticed for results. I think it's the people who use the fact that they are female to get attention within the community rather then the professional mc's or interviewers doing their jobs who are undermining the equality. Just my opinion ^.^ | ||
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Cinim
Denmark866 Posts
On July 18 2012 08:03 mrtomjones wrote: The day a really good looking female achieves something in SC based on her play is the day she will have a bright future as a part of the commentating/host side of the events. Every sport in the world has people involved who never achieved anything. Deal with it. Not every aspect of hosting requires SC knowledge really either. Tossgirl, she is pretty hot. Not sure if she speak english though, for the foreigner to enjoy if she ever were to be involved in hosting etc. | ||
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Vildhjerta
Sweden20 Posts
On July 18 2012 08:49 Dosey wrote: She was asking trivia questions and showing the players to their booth. How is that harmful in any way? I guess booth girls are now harmful because they don't read the comics or play the games of the booths they represent? Erin Andrews doesn't play football or any other sport, she doesn't deserve to report on those sports. In fact, she is hurting ESPN because she's pretty! So, who would be qualified to ask trivia questions? I'm curious. I don't know this person you're talking about, but I can imagine... It's silly of you to think that I meant that she could harm ESPN. What about harming half of the population by presenting only one kind of women - the pretty ones? Really simplified because I dont have a lot of time to elaborate at the moment but if you think about it I think you could get what I mean | ||
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figq
12519 Posts
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KissMeRed
United States96 Posts
Second, I'd rather have a professional host with no knowledge of SC2 who can generate genuine hype in place of a host who understands SC2, but performs a lame, fake-ish boxing match style intro over and over. It probably would have been more entertaining if the blonde model just replaced Clutch. Even if she had a few gaffes, it would have been cute and fun! (Side Note: It's funny how events continue to hire ineffective hosts/casters. E.g. Idra and InControl's casting eclipsed anyone else on stream and they aren't even primarily commentators O.o) | ||
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Prophanity
United States165 Posts
On July 18 2012 09:02 Staboteur wrote: If she was hired and asked to put on a persona that she found unbecoming of herself and was putting on reluctantly in order to get paid, I'd have a problem with the situation as it would feel wrong on several levels to participate in the event. I have nothing wrong with this statement but my curiosity makes me ask... if she HAD been hired and asked to portray herself as something she's not, is that type of "acting" not commonplace? Further, seeing as how she would have been hired in this instance and not forced to do this (free people are free, of course) thereby suggesting she made a conscious decision to perform in this way, would that even be an issue? To be fair, Clutch was also there in his capacity. So was Soe, another very attractive woman, and she was utilized in a position requiring a bit more knowledge than what Lauren had and rightfully so. In fact, the presense of Soe makes this even less of an issue to me as it helps to eliminate any pretense of sexism. | ||
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Forikorder
Canada8840 Posts
On July 18 2012 09:08 KissMeRed wrote: First, I didn't even notice the model NASL hired until I saw comments about her, so they weren't even using her 'sex appeal' effectively. Second, I'd rather have a professional host with no knowledge of SC2 who can generate genuine hype in place of a host who understands SC2, but performs a lame, fake-ish boxing match style intro over and over. It probably would have been more entertaining if the blonde model just replaced Clutch. Even if she had a few gaffes, it would have been cute and fun! (Side Note: It's funny how events continue to hire ineffective hosts/casters. E.g. Idra and InControl's casting eclipsed anyone else on stream and they aren't even primarily commentators O.o) you obviously werent there live, we all loved Clutchs intro every single time and it really helped make the event that much more amazing i guess without the full force of the accompanying cheers the intro loses alot of its UMPH | ||
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Tuczniak
1561 Posts
It's just not encouraging for females to join/stay in community. Though the effect is probably small, it shows something. | ||
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A2340
Canada106 Posts
On July 18 2012 09:07 figq wrote: They do that in poker, formula one, any american sport with cheerleaders, and also often enough with any discipline involving the so called "nerds". I don't think it's actually that bad - neither for her, nor for the people who enjoyed her presence. I think it was a win-win for all parties, sorry that some people had to feel bad about it. You shouldn't, imho, it was pretty okay. Agreed. The OP started off by saying that it would be a reflection on how much of an issue gender inequality is in eSports (or something to that extent), but then never really explained why gender inequality is an issue in eSports. It exists--I recognize that--but no one really stands to lose anything from it, as far as I'm aware, unless you're saying that knowledgeable hosts aren't getting hired because some eye candy seems like a better choice. I don't think that's happening, but I'd reconsider if you could show me examples. | ||
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14fighter
United States226 Posts
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Vildhjerta
Sweden20 Posts
On July 18 2012 09:06 killerdog wrote: A Hosts job is to keep the crowds attention during breaks, and introduce things in a not totally awkward fashion, mlg accomplishes this by having clutch, who iirc is trained in acting or broadcasting or something, and other tournaments accomplish this by having humorous hosts, (incontrol, 2gd) or physically attractive hosts or anything else that keeps people at their monitors during those moments where nothing is going on. I fail to see the link between having physically attractive hosts and making it harder for females in E-Sports. If a girl wants to succeed as a player, then gender is definitely not a disadvantage, in fact i would say it is a huge advantage to be female because you will get a lot more attention, and attention attracts sponsors which attracts opportunities to improve which otherwise might not be there. If a female player feels hard done by then they should just buckle down and practice because i can't think of a single case in which a female player has been passed over for sponsorship/attention in favour of a male player of equal skill. As casters, the skills required to be a caster are the ability to be well spoken, that is have a suitably large active vocabulary and know how to use it, as well as having an accent which isn't totally out there, and also knowing enough about the game to talk about it on a decent level. There is always going to be a certain amount of "prejudice" people have when listening to female vs male commentators just because it's a female, and the majority of the sc2 audience (i believe) are male, and that isn't going to change for the forseeable future. I'm just surprised you choose to discuss the fact that hosts sometimes are females who don't understand the game. Because there are just as many male hosts who don't understand the game as well. Actually in my opinion, if you want to complain about something damaging the reputation of females who game seriously i would talk about all the girls who use the fact they are a girl as their main selling point, rather then their playing skill. A few examples (nothing against these people personally or anything like that, they are just examples of a trend i've seen recently) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=346852 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=339222 Are two examples, both are girls trying to sell themselves as girls. Surely this is much more damaging to the professionalism, you seem to want, where there are no differences between how males and females are perceived. There is a certain double standard to saying "guys treat girl gamers differently" when the vocal 5% of female gamers, (who are the ones people hear, and therefore believe make up the majority of the female gaming scene) are advertising their stream as "starcraft with boobs" or something like that. This kind of advertising is just putting more focus on dividing male and female gamers rather then bringing them together. I believe that the best way for female gamers to be treated equally is just to not put any focus on the fact that they are girls, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342346 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=290288 These two streamers just acknowledge that they are girls and then move on, because IT ISN'T IMPORTANT. If girls want attention they should just get better, such as scarlett has done, and get noticed for results. I think it's the people who use the fact that they are female to get attention within the community rather then the professional mc's or interviewers doing their jobs who are undermining the equality. Just my opinion ^.^ I think that gender might be a big disadvantage.Maybe not in marketing, but during the entire gamer-career. Before this girl wanted to "succeed as a player", as you put it, she has probably been with the community for a while. Some people's attitude might have gotten her to change her mind; can't you imagine any girl feeling that she is being worked against by the general view of women in the community? I think what you're taking up is a big issue as well, but I can't write about all issues, can I? There's too much to say about it. You, on the other hand, who seem to be more interested in just this specific thing than in what I wrote about, should start a thread on that! I would read it | ||
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WigglingSquid
5194 Posts
On July 18 2012 08:21 tehemperorer wrote: Given time, more women with more than a cursory knowledge of the game will come forward, . A friendly warning: do not consider this as an inevitable improvement that comes with time. As someone who works in network/computer security, I am a primary witness of the long-lasting effects that are casted on women by an unwelcoming and childish male-dominated audience. There are quite a few female researchers which flat-out refuse to attend and contribute to DEFCON because of its (deserved) reputation. Keep in mind that there does not need to be a significant majority of jerks: just a few rotten apples and a common enough sense of complacency, tolerance and "boys will be boys" attitude are more than enough to cause serious troubles. Gaming communities tend to be very immature in their approach to many things; this is presumably due to issues both age-related and cultural. This greatly contributes to the specific issue at hand, in our specific group. Personally, I doubt that the situation is going to change anytime soon. The "living female decoration" has been a die-hard concept of western show culture for quite some time now. Again, gender parity is a goal a community must work towards, rather than hoping that things will naturally solve themselves: this is not an impossible task, but I doubt that the SC2 showbiz is going to take on it with any degree of effort. | ||
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Xonix
225 Posts
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thurst0n
United States611 Posts
On July 18 2012 08:24 Kreb wrote: How to present females? Like any other normal human being. Its when you make their sex a huge deal things start to get weird. This. And I just totally disagree with OP. I am not bothered with this at all. I am seeing absolutely no problems here. Present each female how they want to be presented. I want to thank NASL personally, for providing me with eye candy, and a bit of an escape from pure Starcraft. A beautiful girl adds another dynamic to the "show", it doesn't take anything away. I'm not quite sure what you think I'm supposed to be mad about. This entire thread kinda makes my head hurt. You are making so many assumptions in the OP it's not even funny. For starters you assume the entire audience wants the same thing, which is just not true at all, and furthermore that the audience agrees with you! Then you go on to assume how NASL should put on a show for their fans. I'm sure you know, but I'll remind you: you can put on your own tournament and hire anyone you want to have any roll (assuming they're willing of course). The way you present this never even crossed my mind, you're making strawmen and trying to light them on fire. The only perception of how e-sports was presenting women was the sheer awesomeness of a shy Scarlett dominating the WCS. I'm not sure where in the community men are complaining they aren't getting the attention, and that women get more attention. But frankly that's complete bogus, if they want the attention that Lauren Elise got, that makes no sense. You want recognition for your own accomplishments, if you just want fame for the fame you don't deserve to be bitching in the first place. Why are people always trying to see the negative. If you don't believe women should be sex objects.(or if you think that's what we're doing here is objectifying them) Or if you don't believe woman should be used to sell [enter good/service here] then perhaps you should start a human rights group. TL:DR-Gender(or race/age/religious/sexual orientation) is ONLY an issue if you choose to make it an issue. Stop making it an issue. get over your teenage unease. | ||
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mrtomjones
Canada4020 Posts
On July 18 2012 08:11 Vildhjerta wrote: Do you mean that if a not-so-good-looking female achieves something, she will not have a bright future as a part of the commentating/host side of the events? nah, just that good looking people tend to have more doors opened for them and that since in my scenario this person would be replacing what is essentially eye candy it would much more likely be replaced with other eye candy with sc2 knowledge  | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On July 18 2012 08:08 baby elephant wrote: naked User was warned for this post | ||
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