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I think that gender might be a big disadvantage.Maybe not in marketing, but during the entire gamer-career. Before this girl wanted to "succeed as a player", as you put it, she has probably been with the community for a while. Some people's attitude might have gotten her to change her mind; can't you imagine any girl feeling that she is being worked against by the general view of women in the community?
are people jsut conveniently forgetting Scarlett?
if you go to an event, and you beat someone whos known you become known
the scene is outrageously hard to break into for everyone equally because all the scene actually cares about is skill thats why invite only tournaments or tournaments with only small number of spots given to open tournament qualifiers are so rare, its why some people dont watch tournys that dont have Koreans becuase ll people care about is skill
it doesnt matter if your black, asian, white, fat, skinny, muscular, lean, have great fasion sense, terrible fasion sense, bald, 10 foot pink mohawk or say all your sentences backward, if you go into a tournament and beat amazing players in amazing ways you will get tons of fans and most of them wont even know what you look like
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Let's be honest. You cannont compare females and males in a general sense when it comes to any sport involving any kind of physical activity. Males are simply on another physical level. I'm sure many people like to think otherwise. But this fact is not disputable. This is why there is a serperate everything for women ( ie WNBA, LPGA, etc etc). Women will always be seen as sex symbols. This will never change. This is why there are always "hot" females standing off to the side, doing nothing at all but looking good. Supply and demand.
I always find it hilarious when there is a female "host" at some kind of sporting event. MMA, football, basketball whatever. You know the only reason they are there is because of their looks. Sure they can get through the event withought major misshaps, but the phrases they use and the way they word questions is just silly sometimes. It's hard to explain, but you can tell that they generally do not have a real love for the sport and don't use the correct lingo etc.
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On July 18 2012 10:27 FullNatural wrote:
Let's be honest. You cannont compare females and males in a general sense when it comes to any sport involving any kind of physical activity. Males are simply on another physical level. I'm sure many people like to think otherwise. But this fact is not disputable. This is why there is a serperate everything for women ( ie WNBA, LPGA, etc etc). Women will always be seen as sex symbols. This will never change. This is why there are always "hot" females standing off to the side, doing nothing at all but looking good. Supply and demand.
also its not like women are being forced at gun point to do these jobs, Models actually want to be models and like there job its not like they were completely unable to find any work and were found on the corner with a cardboard sign "will model for food"
some women like to look sexy and show it off hiring them isnt gender discrimination
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On July 18 2012 10:27 FullNatural wrote:
Let's be honest. You cannont compare females and males in a general sense when it comes to any sport involving any kind of physical activity. Males are simply on another physical level. I'm sure many people like to think otherwise. But this fact is not disputable. This is why there is a serperate everything for women ( ie WNBA, LPGA, etc etc). Women will always be seen as sex symbols. This will never change. This is why there are always "hot" females standing off to the side, doing nothing at all but looking good. Supply and demand.
It's esports, dude. We pressing buttons all day. It's not Usain Bolt stuff.
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Female hosts act as "social proof" for starcraft events. It's great for the community and esports in general. It "legitimizes" the scene. It's like how the male protagonist of movies getting the girl- the girl "social proofs" him - aka, legitimizes his character.
It's dumb, yeah, but that's what's going on. The hotter the girl, the stronger the effect :p
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On July 18 2012 08:22 Facultyadjutant wrote:Basically here is the problem. There isn´t really any misogyny and sexism out there that is genuine. But it is riddled with this jokish culture, look at the mma thread; about half of it is jokes about how mma banged eve or jessica. The problem is just that everyone is trying to be an (awful) comedian, and joking on a woman´s expense (No knowledge, no skill, looks etc.) is something people can easily take a jab at.
Well i wouldn't say that. As a matter of fact i'm very sexist. It's heavily frowned upon to say out loud but i am and i honestly think a lot of men are. Academically I think men and women are close... it's hard to prove otherwise. However there is no sport on earth that a woman could do better than a man. And by sport i mean physical competition. Boys high school state swim meet times are comparable and often faster than that of Olympic women's times. That's fact.
Back on topic
This thread is lame. Threads like this create the problem more than they help. She got the job cuz she looked good. Just like many other people in the world. It's how it goes and personally i'm happy for it. I like to look at pretty things.
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On July 18 2012 10:29 Redmark wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 10:27 FullNatural wrote:
Let's be honest. You cannont compare females and males in a general sense when it comes to any sport involving any kind of physical activity. Males are simply on another physical level. I'm sure many people like to think otherwise. But this fact is not disputable. This is why there is a serperate everything for women ( ie WNBA, LPGA, etc etc). Women will always be seen as sex symbols. This will never change. This is why there are always "hot" females standing off to the side, doing nothing at all but looking good. Supply and demand. It's esports, dude. We pressing buttons all day. It's not Usain Bolt stuff.
ahhhh exactly. This is why the old female star leagues could easily hang with the men........ o wait......
Dexterity with hands, eye hand cordination etc etc. This is physical activity. This is why men are better at it.
This is why like 1 girl in a thousand (toss girl in BW) could hang with the guys. Not even really. She could hang with B teamers.
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I think Soe's doing a pretty good job at being a female in esports...hot, decently knowledgeable about the game, and interacts well with the crowd. Here's hoping for more characters like her to pop up.
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On July 18 2012 08:57 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 08:54 LgNKami wrote:
As a man I can say that a majority of the females online dont like telling people that they're females simply because (insert random percentage here) of men online dont know how to fucking act and tend to drive off most of the females. It was like that on Xbox Live. I used to play Gears of War alot (and if you know the gears community, they're pretty fucking hardcore nerds) and everytime a female spoke a word, all hell broke loose. Most of you are grown men with wives of your own, don't act like kids.
Females are humans just like males. If you ask me, most of the males need to fix their behavior around females rather than vice-versa. you could replace female with any sort of minority or anything that makes someone different and it would still be accurate
I don't think it is to the same degree though. From my experience its far more common for a lone female gamer to get crap in a game (especially with a mic), then a minority of some kind. Unless it is an extremely rare minority. Like the Mew of Minorities.
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This discussion reminds me of when season 1 had ms. Sporrer...
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On July 18 2012 10:35 mierin wrote:
I think Soe's doing a pretty good job at being a female in esports...hot, decently knowledgeable about the game, and interacts well with fans. Here's hoping for more characters like her to pop up.
Its her accent. New people likely spend the first 10 minutes or so trying to rack their brains for an origin, all the while they unknowingly give her a chance without the female factor looming over. 5 minutes after that, she finishes some kind of nerd art that puts many creative nerds to shame, thus establishing her place of dominance in the community. Quite clever really....
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On July 18 2012 10:17 BuddhaMonk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 10:11 Heavenlee wrote:
....The majority of the sc2 community are young males...young males like looking at hot women...why are you making this into some sort of feminist manifesto? There is no "media" sexualization of females, males view females as sexual creatures regardless of media---it's our biological and evolutionary imperative. If some female comes that provides something besides being eye candy, then that's good, but eye candy like Lauren is eye candy. You may as well ask "why do models have to be good looking?" Unless you are sexually oppressed there is absolutely nothing wrong with the presence of attractive women for the sake of attractive women, barring you end up stalking her. I'm not sure how you can say there's no sexualization of females and be taken seriously. One need only look at the media in, say the 1950's and 60's and compare it to today to notice the extremely stark difference. Now, the sexualization also extends to men as well so this street does go both ways. There's plenty of research that proves this to be the case, and it's not just a case of feminism. In fact you can argue that the sexualization of women has been largely perpetuated because of feminism and the sexual revolution. You can argue that it's not necessarily a bad thing but to argue that it has always been this way in media is just flat out wrong.
Read what I wrote. Sexualization of females is not a media thing, it's a human nature thing, which extends to the media. Regardless of whether there is sexuality in the 1950's and 60's, they kind of opppressed women far more than we do in modern times, and let's not forge the baby boom where everyone got knocked up all at once. There is a reason that women are looked at as sexual creatures, attractive people are valued over unattractive people especially for females, and why men like looking at attractive hostesses in general.
It appeals to our basic animal instincts, and there is nothing wrong with wanting to look at eye candy despite whoever wants to wax poetic about how women are being taken advantage of. Because who is being taken advantage of here? Lauren, who gets paid to be the hostess at an event where she dances around, gets to have fun? She's a playmate, I doubt she is too offended by guys sexualizing her and doesn't need some guy to write a thread on the internet defending her personal choice. Nor does any female who should be smart enough to realize why she was hired to be the hostess of a large gaming event that's 99% males. The idea in the OP that having a hot hostess at an event ruins the entire female gender and its attempt to get into e-sports...is just retarded. No one besides people in twitch.tv streamchats and youtube comments are going to compare Lauren to some girl gamer trying to make it big, it's just a completely random comparison that assumes everyone is stupid enough to not understand there's a difference.
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On July 18 2012 10:21 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +I think that gender might be a big disadvantage.Maybe not in marketing, but during the entire gamer-career. Before this girl wanted to "succeed as a player", as you put it, she has probably been with the community for a while. Some people's attitude might have gotten her to change her mind; can't you imagine any girl feeling that she is being worked against by the general view of women in the community? are people jsut conveniently forgetting Scarlett? if you go to an event, and you beat someone whos known you become known the scene is outrageously hard to break into for everyone equally because all the scene actually cares about is skill thats why invite only tournaments or tournaments with only small number of spots given to open tournament qualifiers are so rare, its why some people dont watch tournys that dont have Koreans becuase ll people care about is skill it doesnt matter if your black, asian, white, fat, skinny, muscular, lean, have great fasion sense, terrible fasion sense, bald, 10 foot pink mohawk or say all your sentences backward, if you go into a tournament and beat amazing players in amazing ways you will get tons of fans and most of them wont even know what you look like
I love this attitude, its quite naive,
Skill is important, but imagine this scenario, 2 equally skilled players, one is quiet and reserved, a few words in interviews here or there, the other a bombastic, well spoken, handsome individual who is funny, and interviews very well.
Who is going the receive sponsorship? The answer is clear.
Who you are maters, as well as how well you play, you are sponsored by a team, to help market a product.
Besides, this is not the real issue of women in Esport, the issue is that gaming in general is perceived by both men and women as a masculine activity, we as a community help perpetuate this idea, as well as people outside of gaming.
Esport on the whole is similar, a homogeneous male environment which I think acts more as a barrier to entry than something that inhibits people inside the space.
This is why things like girls of starcraft and the gay starcraft players exist, mostly to help these minorities deal with the space, but also to encourage new people to enter into the space.
So gaming as a whole needs to be more gender inclusive, but it is difficult for us as one community within this subset to change the whole, so we should start by changing ourselves, if only to show that we are quick to change to adopting healthy ideas about sex and gender.
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On July 18 2012 10:35 FullNatural wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 10:29 Redmark wrote:On July 18 2012 10:27 FullNatural wrote:
Let's be honest. You cannont compare females and males in a general sense when it comes to any sport involving any kind of physical activity. Males are simply on another physical level. I'm sure many people like to think otherwise. But this fact is not disputable. This is why there is a serperate everything for women ( ie WNBA, LPGA, etc etc). Women will always be seen as sex symbols. This will never change. This is why there are always "hot" females standing off to the side, doing nothing at all but looking good. Supply and demand. It's esports, dude. We pressing buttons all day. It's not Usain Bolt stuff. ahhhh exactly. This is why the old female star leagues could easily hang with the men........ o wait...... Dexterity with hands, eye hand cordination etc etc. This is physical activity. This is why men are better at it. This is why like 1 girl in a thousand (toss girl in BW) could hang with the guys. Not even really. She could hang with B teamers.
girls cant hang with the guys because they jsut arent as dedicated to sit in the team house and grind out 12 hours a day
look at teenage girls text and tell me they dont ahve hand dexterity and hand eye coordination
I love this attitude, its quite naive,
Skill is important, but imagine this scenario, 2 equally skilled players, one is quiet and reserved, a few words in interviews here or there, the other a bombastic, well spoken, handsome individual who is funny, and interviews very well.
Who is going the receive sponsorship? The answer is clear.
Who you are maters, as well as how well you play, you are sponsored by a team, to help market a product.
Besides, this is not the real issue of women in Esport, the issue is that gaming in general is perceived by both men and women as a masculine activity, we as a community help perpetuate this idea, as well as people outside of gaming.
Esport on the whole is similar, a homogeneous male environment which I think acts more as a barrier to entry than something that inhibits people inside the space.
This is why things like girls of starcraft and the gay starcraft players exist, mostly to help these minorities deal with the space, but also to encourage new people to enter into the space.
So gaming as a whole needs to be more gender inclusive, but it is difficult for us as one community within this subset to change the whole, so we should start by changing ourselves, if only to show that we are quick to change to adopting healthy ideas about sex and gender.
your attitude isnt even going to come into play until you have a result to back it up or troll people streaming
it doesnt matter if you have the craziest personality ever if you dont actually do well i a tournament your jsut practicing in front of a mirror
also "quiet, reserved saids few words in interviews" thats scarlett she wins WCS barely squeaks out a few words and disapears
if your an Idra or a Naniwa you can get more exposure a bit easier but people are still going to look at skill first personality second
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On July 18 2012 10:39 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 10:35 mierin wrote:
I think Soe's doing a pretty good job at being a female in esports...hot, decently knowledgeable about the game, and interacts well with fans. Here's hoping for more characters like her to pop up. Its her accent. New people likely spend the first 10 minutes or so trying to rack their brains for an origin, all the while the unknowingly give her a chance with the female factor looming over. 5 minutes after that, she finishes some kind of nerd art that puts many creative nerds to shame, thus establishing her place of dominance in the community. Quite clever really....
Don't just go exposing secrets like that! Killing esports, man...
EDIT: Comment above me was pure win
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TL is an international site.
This is typically the kind of question where people will never agree...
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No womens in eSport is the best thing. Most women in eSport are attention-whores who know nothing of the game.
User was warned for this post
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This thread is ridiculous.
On July 18 2012 10:35 Akamu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 08:22 Facultyadjutant wrote:On July 18 2012 08:08 baby elephant wrote:
naked Basically here is the problem. There isn´t really any misogyny and sexism out there that is genuine. But it is riddled with this jokish culture, look at the mma thread; about half of it is jokes about how mma banged eve or jessica. The problem is just that everyone is trying to be an (awful) comedian, and joking on a woman´s expense (No knowledge, no skill, looks etc.) is something people can easily take a jab at. Well i wouldn't say that. As a matter of fact i'm very sexist. It's heavily frowned upon to say out loud but i am and i honestly think a lot of men are. Academically I think men and women are close... it's hard to prove otherwise. However there is no sport on earth that a woman could do better than a man. And by sport i mean physical competition. Boys high school state swim meet times are comparable and often faster than that of Olympic women's times. That's fact.
That's not sexism...that's objective fact...lol?
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Easy, with skill and results.
Looks don't matter, gender/biological sex doesn't matter, in the world of eSport where success is not determined by physical attributes (aside from fast fingers, really) a woman can succeed if she puts her mind into it.
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On July 18 2012 10:42 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 10:35 FullNatural wrote:On July 18 2012 10:29 Redmark wrote:On July 18 2012 10:27 FullNatural wrote:
Let's be honest. You cannont compare females and males in a general sense when it comes to any sport involving any kind of physical activity. Males are simply on another physical level. I'm sure many people like to think otherwise. But this fact is not disputable. This is why there is a serperate everything for women ( ie WNBA, LPGA, etc etc). Women will always be seen as sex symbols. This will never change. This is why there are always "hot" females standing off to the side, doing nothing at all but looking good. Supply and demand. It's esports, dude. We pressing buttons all day. It's not Usain Bolt stuff. ahhhh exactly. This is why the old female star leagues could easily hang with the men........ o wait...... Dexterity with hands, eye hand cordination etc etc. This is physical activity. This is why men are better at it. This is why like 1 girl in a thousand (toss girl in BW) could hang with the guys. Not even really. She could hang with B teamers. girls cant hang with the guys because they jsut arent as dedicated to sit in the team house and grind out 12 hours a day look at teenage girls text and tell me they dont ahve hand dexterity and hand eye coordination Show nested quote +I love this attitude, its quite naive,
Skill is important, but imagine this scenario, 2 equally skilled players, one is quiet and reserved, a few words in interviews here or there, the other a bombastic, well spoken, handsome individual who is funny, and interviews very well.
Who is going the receive sponsorship? The answer is clear.
Who you are maters, as well as how well you play, you are sponsored by a team, to help market a product.
Besides, this is not the real issue of women in Esport, the issue is that gaming in general is perceived by both men and women as a masculine activity, we as a community help perpetuate this idea, as well as people outside of gaming.
Esport on the whole is similar, a homogeneous male environment which I think acts more as a barrier to entry than something that inhibits people inside the space.
This is why things like girls of starcraft and the gay starcraft players exist, mostly to help these minorities deal with the space, but also to encourage new people to enter into the space.
So gaming as a whole needs to be more gender inclusive, but it is difficult for us as one community within this subset to change the whole, so we should start by changing ourselves, if only to show that we are quick to change to adopting healthy ideas about sex and gender. your attitude isnt even going to come into play until you have a result to back it up or troll people streaming it doesnt matter if you have the craziest personality ever if you dont actually do well i a tournament your jsut practicing in front of a mirror also "quiet, reserved saids few words in interviews" thats scarlett she wins WCS barely squeaks out a few words and disapears if your an Idra or a Naniwa you can get more exposure a bit easier but people are still going to look at skill first personality second
More or less agreed.
Yeah, of course if you just sit at home, you won't get that love, but then you aren't trying to be a starcraft player, you are just an eccentric person who sits at home.
Also , yes Scarlett is quiet, but she is also a woman, and transgender, she has a much more exciting narrative than just someone who is quiet. (also go checkout her post match interview on gamespot, she is quite talkative then)
Either way, debating the examples is less the point, my argument is that your personality and who you are has a significant impact on your marketability as a player at every stage of the profession, and we are in agreement on that.
However you didn't really deal with the notion that being a near homogeneous community of men is a barrier to entry, and that gaming in general is stigmatised as masculine activity by both men and women.
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EPT
