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0neder
United States3733 Posts
On June 15 2012 13:42 GinDo wrote: Thank You. My point exactly. Warhound Hellion is just MM, but without the micro -_____-. Yes, the battle hellion and warhound are just JUMBO BIO from the FACTORY! =( | ||
Falling
Canada11571 Posts
And I'm not talking even iCCup D- guys here. I'm talking 30 apm, make one barracks and one factory queue 5 units and attack. When a giant tank line locks into seige mode and starts blasting away, it's one of the most epic and most unique attacks of the Terran race. And even these newbie Terrans that I play LAN games with enjoy the chess match. They enjoy trying to figure out how to break the fortified p[ositions. When they say it comes down to Tanks and Vikings and that's boring... maybe it's not the tanks. | ||
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HeroMystic
United States1217 Posts
On June 15 2012 14:03 Falling wrote: What I don't understand is why they think tank battles are boring. Every Terran player I've ever talked to LOVES tank battles. And I'm not talking even iCCup D- guys here. I'm talking 30 apm, make one barracks and one factory queue 5 units and attack. When a giant tank line locks into seige mode and starts blasting away, it's one of the most epic and most unique attacks of the Terran race. And even these newbie Terrans that I play LAN games with enjoy the chess match. They enjoy trying to figure out how to break the fortified p[ositions. When they say it comes down to Tanks and Vikings and that's boring... maybe it's not the tanks. Probably that it's boring to watch. I can say for sure that it's a blast to play. However I know I've been in a game where I went Mech on Shakuras and I tried to push, but the opponent took the middle and set 3 Planentaries there, along with Sensor Towers and turret rings on each base. I had no choice but to sit there and take my half and set up my transition to BC/Viking. I know something like that would be boring to watch. | ||
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Jetaap
France4814 Posts
On June 15 2012 14:03 Falling wrote: What I don't understand is why they think tank battles are boring. Every Terran player I've ever talked to LOVES tank battles. And I'm not talking even iCCup D- guys here. I'm talking 30 apm, make one barracks and one factory queue 5 units and attack. When a giant tank line locks into seige mode and starts blasting away, it's one of the most epic and most unique attacks of the Terran race. And even these newbie Terrans that I play LAN games with enjoy the chess match. They enjoy trying to figure out how to break the fortified p[ositions. When they say it comes down to Tanks and Vikings and that's boring... maybe it's not the tanks. Yeah i don't understand why half the new units seems made to counter positional play and tanks .. viper with abduct/dark swarm, ultra with charge, even the swarm host, for protoss we already have immortals/colossus/chargelots/blink stalkers that own tanks. Even in TvT we see tanks line broken by pure bio everyday, and now they want to add 1a units to make it even worse. They cannot do a game where you can a move in any defensive position and expect it to be a good game.. ps: i'm a zerg/protoss player so i really don't have any bias for terran, but the design choice made for this race for HOTS seem so terrible | ||
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Falling
Canada11571 Posts
On June 15 2012 14:39 HeroMystic wrote: Probably that it's boring to watch. I can say for sure that it's a blast to play. However I know I've been in a game where I went Mech on Shakuras and I tried to push, but the opponent took the middle and set 3 Planentaries there, along with Sensor Towers and turret rings on each base. I had no choice but to sit there and take my half and set up my transition to BC/Viking. I know something like that would be boring to watch. But it seems to me the way to fix that is to add more interesting elements and not try to kill the tank as the tank is the most interesting part of that group. Fix the unit movement for the Vikings so it can be microed like the wraith rather than sit still like sky turrets. Or if these mines pan out, it ought to create more dynamic unit interactions. The combination of tanks, fast raiders, and splash damage mines made for interesting gameplay. | ||
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Woizit
801 Posts
On June 15 2012 14:39 HeroMystic wrote: Probably that it's boring to watch. I can say for sure that it's a blast to play. However I know I've been in a game where I went Mech on Shakuras and I tried to push, but the opponent took the middle and set 3 Planentaries there, along with Sensor Towers and turret rings on each base. I had no choice but to sit there and take my half and set up my transition to BC/Viking. I know something like that would be boring to watch. IMO that boring to watch part can be solved by mapmaking. Shakuras is probably the easiest map to create a split map out there. | ||
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Garmer
1286 Posts
On June 15 2012 14:03 Falling wrote: What I don't understand is why they think tank battles are boring. Every Terran player I've ever talked to LOVES tank battles. And I'm not talking even iCCup D- guys here. I'm talking 30 apm, make one barracks and one factory queue 5 units and attack. When a giant tank line locks into seige mode and starts blasting away, it's one of the most epic and most unique attacks of the Terran race. And even these newbie Terrans that I play LAN games with enjoy the chess match. They enjoy trying to figure out how to break the fortified p[ositions. When they say it comes down to Tanks and Vikings and that's boring... maybe it's not the tanks. tankless mech doesn't make sense at all, is like Bio-Ball all over again. if they remove tanks, i will quit this game, seriously, tanks are the most fun units in the game | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On June 15 2012 14:39 HeroMystic wrote: Probably that it's boring to watch. I can say for sure that it's a blast to play. However I know I've been in a game where I went Mech on Shakuras and I tried to push, but the opponent took the middle and set 3 Planentaries there, along with Sensor Towers and turret rings on each base. I had no choice but to sit there and take my half and set up my transition to BC/Viking. I know something like that would be boring to watch. So the solution is to add an anti factory-1a unit or, make better maps? The Tank has to be the main unit in mech compositions or it just doesn't feel like mech and i agree with the Vikings being the borring part of TvT. If there was better anti air from the factory, it would create more interesting dinamics of balancing tanks vs warhounds not godly against tanks with anti air. Though we haven't seen a single warhound in action or a TvT/ TvP battle report, so maybe they are still debaiting on it's role. Let's hope for the best. | ||
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DaveVAH
Canada162 Posts
On June 15 2012 09:30 fabiano wrote: Is this true? Because if it is true, then widow mines are just banelings clones.... By watching the VODs it looks like the mines are triggered by enemy units, you don't need to manually set their target From the battle report it looks like it comes auto-Target as default. | ||
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[]Phase[]
Belgium927 Posts
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Roth
Germany165 Posts
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HeroMystic
United States1217 Posts
On June 15 2012 16:51 Sapphire.lux wrote: So the solution is to add an anti factory-1a unit or, make better maps? The Tank has to be the main unit in mech compositions or it just doesn't feel like mech and i agree with the Vikings being the borring part of TvT. If there was better anti air from the factory, it would create more interesting dinamics of balancing tanks vs warhounds not godly against tanks with anti air. Though we haven't seen a single warhound in action or a TvT/ TvP battle report, so maybe they are still debaiting on it's role. Let's hope for the best. I agree with what you and everyone else is saying. I also agree that Vikings are what make Tank wars boring. Goliaths created a much better dynamic in BW since they were grounded. I also dislike the Viking from a personal standpoint because only half of the Viking is useful. Assault Mode Viking is just depressing to use. In fact they can probably buff Assault Mode to make a much stronger dynamic not only in TvT but also in other matches. Far as Warhound goes, I don't really understand why they have to be a Mech buster unit. It'd be much better if those missles could just be Anti-Air missles. Warhound's movement speed (2.81) and range is good enough to be a strong general purpose unit. | ||
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foxmulder_ms
United States140 Posts
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GinDo
3327 Posts
On June 15 2012 14:03 Falling wrote: What I don't understand is why they think tank battles are boring. Every Terran player I've ever talked to LOVES tank battles. And I'm not talking even iCCup D- guys here. I'm talking 30 apm, make one barracks and one factory queue 5 units and attack. When a giant tank line locks into seige mode and starts blasting away, it's one of the most epic and most unique attacks of the Terran race. And even these newbie Terrans that I play LAN games with enjoy the chess match. They enjoy trying to figure out how to break the fortified p[ositions. When they say it comes down to Tanks and Vikings and that's boring... maybe it's not the tanks. I blame the Viking for the State of TvT. In BW for vision you either (1) Floated a building (2) Built a wraith/Valk (3) Scanned. Buildings were shot by Goliaths, and Wraiths and Valks had short range and could also be shot by Goliaths. Goliaths in turn did not provide vision and could be shot by Tanks. Thus Terran relied on scans once the Goliath count grew enough. However in SC2 they gave the Goliath flight and vision, together with its longs range. As a result TvT is about who has more Vikings in order to obtain vision. In addition, the player that loses air control is now punished by having to scan, while the opponent with air control can mule. Kill the Viking Blizz if you want to fix TvT. | ||
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GinDo
3327 Posts
On June 15 2012 20:18 HeroMystic wrote: I agree with what you and everyone else is saying. I also agree that Vikings are what make Tank wars boring. Goliaths created a much better dynamic in BW since they were grounded. I also dislike the Viking from a personal standpoint because only half of the Viking is useful. Assault Mode Viking is just depressing to use. In fact they can probably buff Assault Mode to make a much stronger dynamic not only in TvT but also in other matches. Far as Warhound goes, I don't really understand why they have to be a Mech buster unit. It'd be much better if those missles could just be Anti-Air missles. Warhound's movement speed (2.81) and range is good enough to be a strong general purpose unit. If Blizzard really wanted a Mech Buster, they should Buff the HSM Range. But, even then we already have Nukes. The issue is that nobody uses Nukes because we can break tank lines with Marines. I don't remember the last Stalemate I've ever had in TvT. Tanks lines are just so easy to break. | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On June 15 2012 14:39 HeroMystic wrote: Probably that it's boring to watch. I can say for sure that it's a blast to play. However I know I've been in a game where I went Mech on Shakuras and I tried to push, but the opponent took the middle and set 3 Planentaries there, along with Sensor Towers and turret rings on each base. I had no choice but to sit there and take my half and set up my transition to BC/Viking. I know something like that would be boring to watch. TvT is and always has been (including BW) the most interesting mirror to watch. There's a reason for that. | ||
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Poltergeist-
Sweden336 Posts
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mostevil
United Kingdom611 Posts
On June 15 2012 08:30 razy wrote: every time someone says "warhound will make mech viable against toss" something inside me dies. Yes it will. Except that won't be mech but another goddamn mmm variation. Stop fooling yourself. Mech's core consists of stuff like tanks and mines. NOT effin warhounds or thors (like in modern TvZ), because they are no more than another beefier and more boring marauder variation. If developers can't come up with any interesting concept than at least implement 3 core components: mines, strong tanks and solid factory anti air. Warhound and thor are anti-mech units, both doing what tanks should've in the first place: kill fucking ground army. Blizzard loves talking about role overlap and removing iconic units because of that. U know what, I see three units from the same production facility designed to do the same thing. How much time will it take our beloved company to realize that? I would've shut up if those two robotic poopsters had some unique roles, like warhound being anti air and thor being added to the mech army solely to tank damage, but sadly that's not the case: these units are there only to do more "terrible, terrible damage". As if we don't have enough of those. Blizzard is indeed making mech viable by making bio come out of the factory. I think they're just too hung up on making it "their game" so won't make it more like BW despite everyone asking for it. Strong tanks make ling/bane too weak but then if they'd just reduce the clumping a bit all that goes away and everyones happy. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On June 15 2012 14:03 Falling wrote: What I don't understand is why they think tank battles are boring. Every Terran player I've ever talked to LOVES tank battles. And I'm not talking even iCCup D- guys here. I'm talking 30 apm, make one barracks and one factory queue 5 units and attack. When a giant tank line locks into seige mode and starts blasting away, it's one of the most epic and most unique attacks of the Terran race. And even these newbie Terrans that I play LAN games with enjoy the chess match. They enjoy trying to figure out how to break the fortified p[ositions. When they say it comes down to Tanks and Vikings and that's boring... maybe it's not the tanks. I don't like tanks... I like fast paced, intense micro play and multipronged action. Tanks don't really serve this style well. I'll use them because I have to, not because I like to. But that's just me. Generally, I can enjoy watching and playing positional play, but a lot of people confuses "positional chess-like battle" with the boring snooze fest they actually play, because of the sense of security it procures. Tank play for low level players (up to European pro level I would even say, just look at foreigner TvT) follows the same mentality as the common "no rush 20 minutes" you always see from lower caliber players. People don't like to attack because of the risk it implies, so they hide themselves behind "established beautiful siege lines" and stay "safe". You know what, establishing a siege line is what of the most weak plays you can do in a game of Starcraft, UNLESS it's to contain the guy in his base or split the map in more than a half for you. It doesn't accomplish anything otherwise, and the main goal for a good player when faced with a siege line should be "how can I get rid of this shit?" or "how can I get around it and abuse the fuck out of my opponent?", not "I have to establish my own beautiful siege line nao so that we can have a stare contest, and then compare our viking counts and see who has the bigger!". I'm actually glad that you can't defend very well a position in SC2 with a minimal amount of tanks as it is (because let's face it, they're kind of weak, I will admit ;D), it forces lower end people out of this comfortable sense of security which has no place in a game like Starcraft. I like Blizzard's stance on the subject (tank vs tank can become stale, it's true). At least you tried to speak of siege in an offensive way, which is good, but it's not at all the general feel about tanks I fear. People see them as defensive units, which is wrong. They don't defend shit, aside from some 2 base all ins. Now, that aside, I don't like at all where HotS is going about tanks. As everyone pointed out, about every new unit is a counter to siege tanks, they feel ridiculously weak from a theoritical point of view. High level Terran users (so Korean level obviously) always provide exciting games in TvT, and I wouldn't like that to go away completely. Edit: Let's be clear here, I'm not saying I like HotS mech, because as others have said, Warhound and battle hellions don't feel very mech-ish, I'm essentially expressing that I don't like mech at all. Which, coincidentally enough, might make me appreciate HotS mech new units, so yay~~ ;D Edit2: And I also think TvT is one of the most exciting matchups to watch...just played by good players. | ||
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SarcasmMonster
3136 Posts
 is most vocally opposed about the upcoming changes whereas the other races seem quite content with their HOTS changes.In the interviews, it seems like the are still going through many internal changes so that's promising. | ||
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