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On June 15 2012 08:11 Geos13 wrote:
I really don't follow Browders logic on the Tempest. He starts by explaining that toss air units are only used in specific scenarios and they wanted to make something that would give you a reason to go SG no matter what. Then explains how Tempest is primarily for long range harassment to supplement your actual army. The idea of a 22 range non AOE unit is awesome but what stargate is missing are units that can just fight. Hopefully I'm wrong.
He said in the video too that he didnt want the Tempest to be ''another Colossus'' or similar long range damage unit without a whole lot of brains required.
Also the new Zerg Vipers will take care of it just as easily. The Tempest however looks to have such a long range and is not slower than a Viper, that it can actually allude them and kill them (and swarm hosts) safely. The tempest is so expensive that you can't both go for that and the Collossus, and its damage is too low for it to work with just one or two. The idea is probably that you can make a choice. It will weaken your deathball though so you'll have to go and be more proactive and kill units with the Tempests all the time so they become valuable.
At least, thats how I think it will pan out.
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On June 22 2012 23:10 Trivmvirate wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 08:11 Geos13 wrote:
I really don't follow Browders logic on the Tempest. He starts by explaining that toss air units are only used in specific scenarios and they wanted to make something that would give you a reason to go SG no matter what. Then explains how Tempest is primarily for long range harassment to supplement your actual army. The idea of a 22 range non AOE unit is awesome but what stargate is missing are units that can just fight. Hopefully I'm wrong. He said in the video too that he didnt want the Tempest to be ''another Colossus'' or similar long range damage unit without a whole lot of brains required. Also the new Zerg Vipers will take care of it just as easily. The Tempest however looks to have such a long range and is not slower than a Viper, that it can actually allude them and kill them (and swarm hosts) safely. The tempest is so expensive that you can't both go for that and the Collossus, and its damage is too low for it to work with just one or two. The idea is probably that you can make a choice. It will weaken your deathball though so you'll have to go and be more proactive and kill units with the Tempests all the time so they become valuable. At least, thats how I think it will pan out.
I feel like that would work a lot better if the Tempest still had the same 6.0 attack speed, but it attacked instantly and had a 6 second cooldown instead, which would allow it to kite. Perhaps a 3 second charge + 3 second cooldown or something.
As it is now, you need to have your Tempests stationary and charging for 6 seconds before they fire, negating your range advantage: Vipers close in by 13.5 and Corruptors by 17.7 units per Tempest firing animation.
What this means is that, even if you have vision of the enemy air units and start charging your shot right at 22 range, you'd still only get in one volley before they start abducting or ripping your 300/300 capital ships apart - Corruptors even start shooting at your Tempest before you manage to fire at them!
Now add the fact that you need 5 upupgraded Tempest shots just to kill one Corruptor, and I really don't see balls of them doing that well on their own. Simplifying the situation a bit, you trade 2 Corruptors for 1 Tempest, for 100 gas less - and that's ignoring Corruption.
Sure, there's the rest of your army as well, but the 22 range really doesn't translate into good kiting/sniping units at all when the attack animation/damage stays as it is.
I can see them used to force engagement very well, however. Even if it's only two of them, they kill Sieged tanks in two volleys (ignoring SCV repair). Those are army losses a turtling Terran simply cannot ignore and he'll have to move out.
This is where I see the unit coming in in its current form: you play as normal (with Oracle harass added in), then add 2-3 Tempest in the lategame just to be annoying and have some control of where the Terran mech army sieges.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
From official press-kit. Nothing new, but some official info about overseer changeling ability, oracle scout ability and mothership's stasis ability
This document lists the new units and abilities in the MLG Spring Championship preview build of StarCraft® II: Heart of the Swarm™. Please keep in mind that Heart of the Swarm is still in development, and all of the units and abilities you see described below are subject to change. It's even possible that some of these units and abilities will be discarded and new ones will be created to replace them as we continue to iterate on the game design. What we've listed below is just a snapshot of where we currently stand on multiplayer Heart of the Swarm.
Protoss
Upon analyzing data from their most recent battles, the protoss have identified a few areas of improvement that would help them maximize effectiveness against their enemies. Based on their findings, the protoss have augmented their arsenal with an extremely long-range attacker, additional psionic units, and a new form of enemy harassment.
Tempest
Description: The tempest is a new capital ship that can fire at both ground and air targets from long range, doing additional damage to massive units. A further range upgrade can be researched to give the Tempest the ability to fire from incredible distances.
Oracle
Description: The Oracle is a psionic warship, built from a Stargate, that uses several unique abilities to raid and harass the enemy. The first is Entomb, which can temporarily block mineral fields from being harvested. Another ability, Preordain, grants detection and vision around a targeted building, allowing the protoss to see which units or technologies are being researched. Rounding out its kit is Cloak Field, which temporarily cloaks everything around the Oracle.
Mothership Core
Description: The Mothership Core is unique in more ways than one. Only a single one can exist in your army at once and it's also immobile, attaching itself to a nexus. There are four abilities available from the Mothership Core. Teleport allows you to move the Mothership Core to any of your other nexuses. Energize tops off the energy stores of any target unit or structure. Purify is a defensive ability that temporarily grants the Mothership Core a powerful, long range attack. Finally, Mass Recall allows players to quickly recall units back to the Mothership Core.
Mothership
Description: It's not really a new unit in Heart of the Swarm, but the Mothership abilities are slightly different from Wings of Liberty. The passive cloaking field is gone, with the cloak now available as an activated ability on the Oracle. The Mothership retains its Recall ability, and the Vortex spell from Wings of Liberty now affects ground units only. A new ability called Stasis is available, which puts the mothership and all air units around it into stasis for about 20 seconds. The Mothership is now created by upgrading the Mothership Core after a Fleet Beacon is constructed.
**In the current multiplayer build of Heart of the Swarm, the protoss are not able to deploy Carriers. However, we have not yet made a final determination on the Carrier's status..
Terran
The resourceful terrans have also been improving their technology to better survive their battles in the Koprulu sector.
Widow Mine
Description: The Widow Mine is a new suicide unit built from the Factory that allows the terran player to control areas of the battlefield. The Widow Mine moves into position and sets to stationary mode, which burrows and activates it. When an enemy air or ground unit moves into range, the Widow Mine briefly flashes before moving and attaching itself to that unit. After several seconds, the mine detonates, dealing 200 damage to the unit and a smaller amount of damage to units in the surrounding area.
Warhound
Description: The Warhound is a walking ground mech that is specialized as an anti-mechanical weapon. Smaller and more nimble than a Thor, the Warhound has a standard weapon to hit ground. Its true strength is an additional ability that fires powerful missiles at ground-based mechanical units, making it particularly well suited to taking out enemy siege lines and many protoss ground units.
New Abilities
The Hellion has been upgraded to a transforming unit similar to the Viking. When constructed from the factory, the Hellion spawns in its new battle mode, which gives it additional hit points and a stronger flame attack that covers a short forward-facing arc. This makes the Hellion more effective in late-game fights against large clusters of light units such as Zealots. The player can opt to transform the Hellion into its original, more mobile form as well.
In Heart of the Swarm, the Battlecruiser gains a cooldown-based speed-boost ability called Redline Reactor. Finally, the Reaper no longer has a special building attack. Instead, it gains a passive health-regeneration upgrade that allows it to recharge hit points quickly when out of combat.
Zerg
The zerg continue to evolve and adapt to changing environments, particularly the dangers they face on the battlefield. New creatures will help the zerg stage more effective sieges and add unique enemy-manipulating abilities to their arsenal.
Viper
Description: The Viper is a new flying unit with three unique abilities. Blinding Cloud temporarily reduces the attack range of biological ground units inside the cloud to melee range. Abduct allows the Viper to physically pull a unit to the Viper’s location. Finally, the Viper can use Consume, a channeled ability that allows it to gain some energy back at the expense of damage to your own zerg building.
Swarm Host
Description: The Swarm Host is a slow-moving ground unit that has no standard attack. When burrowed, the Swarm Host spawns a continuous stream of slow-moving units called Locusts that can be used to lay siege and pressure entrenched enemy positions.
New Abilities
Ultralisks have a new Burrow Charge skill that lets them dive underground and quickly surface at a target, allowing them to initiate the fight faster on a crowded battlefield. However, its "frenzy" passive from Wings of Liberty has been removed, meaning the Ultralisk can now be snared by abilities like Fungal Growth. The Overseer has been retained from Wings of Liberty, and changelings can now be spawned from siege range. Finally, the Hydralisk has a new upgrade that allows them to move faster while not on creep.
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One thing I'm wondering about, reading that now: Will Immortal's shields still reduce Widow Mine damage to 10? If so, I can see them being used to sweep mines by keeping them at the front of the army in the absense of detection. It would be rather slow if you had to wait out the 10s countdown, but otherwise it'd be pretty cost effective: One single Immortal would be able to sweep up 750/250 worth of Mines before their shields are depleted. Possible more due to recharge.
A related thought: what would be the vision range on Widow Mines? If it's any larger than 3 they would essentially become Terran Creep Tumor/Superbaneling hybrids :/ Map vision plus the ability to blow up units seems a bit on the strong side.
I could see it being a fun mechanic if the Mines hardly had any vision range, so you had to escort them to their burrow positions if you wanted to be sure they arrived intact.
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On June 23 2012 00:25 DarQraven wrote:
I feel like that would work a lot better if the Tempest still had the same 6.0 attack speed, but it attacked instantly and had a 6 second cooldown instead, which would allow it to kite. Perhaps a 3 second charge + 3 second cooldown or something.
As it is now, you need to have your Tempests stationary and charging for 6 seconds before they fire, negating your range advantage: Vipers close in by 13.5 and Corruptors by 17.7 units per Tempest firing animation.
What this means is that, even if you have vision of the enemy air units and start charging your shot right at 22 range, you'd still only get in one volley before they start abducting or ripping your 300/300 capital ships apart - Corruptors even start shooting at your Tempest before you manage to fire at them!
Now add the fact that you need 5 upupgraded Tempest shots just to kill one Corruptor, and I really don't see balls of them doing that well on their own. Simplifying the situation a bit, you trade 2 Corruptors for 1 Tempest, for 100 gas less - and that's ignoring Corruption.
Sure, there's the rest of your army as well, but the 22 range really doesn't translate into good kiting/sniping units at all when the attack animation/damage stays as it is.
I think Tempest could very well be viable. Just imagine Tempest/Stalker vs a Broodlord-based army. Corruptors and Viper won't be able to access the Tempest thanks to the Stalkers, while the Tempest fire at everything. This would force the Zerg to switch away from BL/Corruptor/Viper.
Don't forget that a Tempest's first attack is immediately, after 6 seconds a single Tempest has dealt 90/120 damage. As far as I know the attack always charges, which allows you to kite.
I would like to see
a) Increased damage the less time the shot travels (say twice the damage at melee range)
b) Overcharging while not attacking. This would make the first hit in a fight stronger and could allow for better kiting.
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On June 23 2012 01:26 Cruncher93 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 00:25 DarQraven wrote:
I feel like that would work a lot better if the Tempest still had the same 6.0 attack speed, but it attacked instantly and had a 6 second cooldown instead, which would allow it to kite. Perhaps a 3 second charge + 3 second cooldown or something.
As it is now, you need to have your Tempests stationary and charging for 6 seconds before they fire, negating your range advantage: Vipers close in by 13.5 and Corruptors by 17.7 units per Tempest firing animation.
What this means is that, even if you have vision of the enemy air units and start charging your shot right at 22 range, you'd still only get in one volley before they start abducting or ripping your 300/300 capital ships apart - Corruptors even start shooting at your Tempest before you manage to fire at them!
Now add the fact that you need 5 upupgraded Tempest shots just to kill one Corruptor, and I really don't see balls of them doing that well on their own. Simplifying the situation a bit, you trade 2 Corruptors for 1 Tempest, for 100 gas less - and that's ignoring Corruption.
Sure, there's the rest of your army as well, but the 22 range really doesn't translate into good kiting/sniping units at all when the attack animation/damage stays as it is. I think Tempest could very well be viable. Just imagine Tempest/Stalker vs a Broodlord-based army. Corruptors and Viper won't be able to access the Tempest thanks to the Stalkers, while the Tempest fire at everything. This would force the Zerg to switch away from BL/Corruptor/Viper. Don't forget that a Tempest's first attack is immediately, after 6 seconds a single Tempest has dealt 90/120 damage. As far as I know the attack always charges, which allows you to kite. I would like to see a) Increased damage the less time the shot travels (say twice the damage at melee range) b) Overcharging while not attacking. This would make the first hit in a fight stronger and could allow for better kiting.
You're right, I did see that wrong in the battle reports. Tempests do indeed function 'properly': instant fire, charge while moving is possible. That still doesn't change much about the situation I described, though. So they get two shots off instead of one: 2 Tempests doing that still don't kill a single Corruptor. If they are going to be used instead of a Deathball, I guess this would be a very positioning heavy style: once you can't cover your Tempests with your ground army, they're dead.
You need three Tempests all targeting one Viper to kill it before it gets in range to Abduct, so that'll probably turn into a tense situation.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
I think Tempest could very well be viable. Just imagine Tempest/Stalker vs a Broodlord-based army. Corruptors and Viper won't be able to access the Tempest thanks to the Stalkers, while the Tempest fire at everything. This would force the Zerg to switch away from BL/Corruptor/Viper.
Don't forget that a Tempest's first attack is immediately, after 6 seconds a single Tempest has dealt 90/120 damage. As far as I know the attack always charges, which allows you to kite.
I would like to see
a) Increased damage the less time the shot travels (say twice the damage at melee range)
b) Overcharging while not attacking. This would make the first hit in a fight stronger and could allow for better kiting.
Mass speedralisk with corruptors will own that combo
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On June 23 2012 03:11 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +I think Tempest could very well be viable. Just imagine Tempest/Stalker vs a Broodlord-based army. Corruptors and Viper won't be able to access the Tempest thanks to the Stalkers, while the Tempest fire at everything. This would force the Zerg to switch away from BL/Corruptor/Viper.
Mass speedralisk with corruptors will own that combo
Of course, there are several unit comps that will own it. However BL/Corr/Viper isn't one of them. I am already looking forward to all those possibilities, even simple ones like Roach/Swarm Host could be fun and since they share upgrades quite powerful.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
Interesting, what combo will dominate in ZvZ ? Will be there something stronger, than Roach-Festor?
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Maybe ling/bling/roach/viper/infestor. Mass roaches will not do too well against viper/lings. Lings can surround and hold them in place while viper take out their range. It becomes much more complex since now it becomes a giant rock paper scissors where lings with vipers can take out roaches effectively, but blings can take out lings effectively, while roaches themselves are just about immune to blings as long as they can get out from viper's spell, but infestors can hold them in place. Very complex...
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On June 23 2012 04:31 Existor wrote:
Interesting, what combo will dominate in ZvZ ? Will be there something stronger, than Roach-Festor?
I can see swarm host / hydra with some infestor support beating roach infestor quite well. Roaches don't do enough DPS to deal with about 8 defensive swarm hosts + hydra and infestors. It seems such a superior combination. It may turn out different in game though.
And when Hive tech (OMG HIVE TECH ZvZ!) kicks in, you can add vipers and it becomes even better of a combination.
I think Roach Infestor will disappear in HOTS outside of maybe some sharp timing attacks perhaps. But even then, that's unlikely.
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4713 Posts
On June 23 2012 06:00 Mirosuu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 04:31 Existor wrote:
Interesting, what combo will dominate in ZvZ ? Will be there something stronger, than Roach-Festor? I can see swarm host / hydra with some infestor support beating roach infestor quite well. Roaches don't do enough DPS to deal with about 8 defensive swarm hosts + hydra and infestors. It seems such a superior combination. It may turn out different in game though. And when Hive tech (OMG HIVE TECH ZvZ!) kicks in, you can add vipers and it becomes even better of a combination. I think Roach Infestor will disappear in HOTS outside of maybe some sharp timing attacks perhaps. But even then, that's unlikely.
I'll tell you what combo will dominate ZvZ late game, Infestor, Viper. Vipers reduce the range of bio to 1, and Infestors keep them in place, as if fungal wasn't bad enough because you couldn't move/reposition now you won't even be able to fight back. Infestor + Viper with almost any other unit could just crush any other ground unit composition. Air units have it slightly better because I am assuming they aren't affected by the cloud, only by the fungal. So in conclusion the new meta will be Infestor + Viper + BL + Corrupters.
However if I am wrong and the cloud affects biological air units above it then prepare for a world of spell caster hurt.
The combo of Infestor and Viper alone against ground armies looks so incredibly broken that I'm almost anticipating zergs trying to rush to Hive as quickly as possible to take advantage of it or not die to it.
The combo also looks stupidly strong against Terran bio, and I fear it could just kill its viability altogether.
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On June 23 2012 06:54 Destructicon wrote:
I'll tell you what combo will dominate ZvZ late game, Infestor, Viper. Vipers reduce the range of bio to 1, and Infestors keep them in place, as if fungal wasn't bad enough because you couldn't move/reposition now you won't even be able to fight back. Infestor + Viper with almost any other unit could just crush any other ground unit composition. Air units have it slightly better because I am assuming they aren't affected by the cloud, only by the fungal. So in conclusion the new meta will be Infestor + Viper + BL + Corrupters.
However if I am wrong and the cloud affects biological air units above it then prepare for a world of spell caster hurt.
The combo of Infestor and Viper alone against ground armies looks so incredibly broken that I'm almost anticipating zergs trying to rush to Hive as quickly as possible to take advantage of it or not die to it.
The combo also looks stupidly strong against Terran bio, and I fear it could just kill its viability altogether.
Sure it seems strong but Viper = 200 gas, Infestor = 150 gas, BL = 250 gas. Just very expensive and somewhat slow.
A mix with Ultras in it should be strong against something like this, Viper and Infestor are quite bad vs Ultras. Combine with Corruptor or your own Vipers to render BL useless and maybe Swarm Host to finish the job.
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Fuck. i want this beta to come out soon omg.
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It would be so funny if you were required to research burrow so your swarm hosts could actually burrow....hahaha eh....
oh god please don't let this happen.. t_t
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On June 23 2012 20:19 fakepriest wrote:
It would be so funny if you were required to research burrow so your swarm hosts could actually burrow....hahaha eh....
oh god please don't let this happen.. t_t
They mentioned in one of these battle-reports, that u actually DON'T need to research it. They are the only unit that can burrow without needing the research.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
On June 23 2012 20:27 ULuMuGuLu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 20:19 fakepriest wrote:
It would be so funny if you were required to research burrow so your swarm hosts could actually burrow....hahaha eh....
oh god please don't let this happen.. t_t They mentioned in one of these battle-reports, that u actually DON'T need to research it. They are the only unit that can burrow without needing the research.
Yeah, like lurker
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Just realised something: http://i.imgur.com/flhHP.jpg?1
If you check this chart, Broodlords only have 8 DPS. Compare this to Tempest:
*More than twice the range
*Twice the HP
*Attacks air
*Moves faster
*More DPS
The advantages of a BL are less supply cost and Broodlings, however this would increase the dps to 14.2 only if the Broodling isn't killed before the BL attacks again.
Also a Tempest gains +4/+6 per upgrade, while BL gains +2 and Broodling gains +1, which gets canceled out by armor upgrades.
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On June 23 2012 06:00 ddrddrddrddr wrote:
Maybe ling/bling/roach/viper/infestor. Mass roaches will not do too well against viper/lings. Lings can surround and hold them in place while viper take out their range. It becomes much more complex since now it becomes a giant rock paper scissors where lings with vipers can take out roaches effectively, but blings can take out lings effectively, while roaches themselves are just about immune to blings as long as they can get out from viper's spell, but infestors can hold them in place. Very complex...
Sounds better than who has more roaches
EDIT:
On June 23 2012 21:48 erazerr wrote:
I think that pulling collousus into a zerg army with vipers and then NPing with infestors will mean that toss will never make collosus in the matchup
good, maybe hydras will see daylight again.
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I think that pulling collousus into a zerg army with vipers and then NPing with infestors will mean that toss will never make collosus in the matchup
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EPT![[image loading]](http://s1.ipicture.ru/uploads/20120622/OaQ6GRSi.png)
